Football at UWM. [Dead Horse Alert]

[Benny B]

So evidently, the new UW-Milwaukee AD (Rick Costello) is making good on his pledge, and the school is spending upwards of six figures to study the feasibility of football, hockey, rugby, and lacrosse.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/133066738.html

I'm thinking that for $10,000, we could just Costello temporary access to MUScoop to read through past threads on why football might or might not work at Marquette UW-M.

[Badgerhater]

Superbar

[GGGG]

Where they come up with the money they need for that I have no idea.  They would have to jack student fees AND come up with some significant fund-raising for this to occur.  

Good luck.

[chapman]

Where they come up with the money they need for that I have no idea.  They would have to jack student fees AND come up with some significant fund-raising for this to occur.  

Good luck.

I don't even know where they have the money to conduct the six figure feasibility study.

[Benny B]

Superbar

Granted, the topic is misleading.  The question I'm trying to pose is why would football work at UW-M if it won't work at Marquette.  Does UW-M have an advantage in making it work, or are they simply in the same boat as MU?  We've discussed MU football in the Al before, but according to the homepage description, yes... Superbar.

But if anything, it probably belongs on the Suggestion Board since it's a revenue-generating opportunity for MUScoop... we've already done the research, let's do some low-cost consulting.

[ErickJD08]

I think it is simple.

Why would football at UWM work?  I think because basketball is not working.  Marquette is obviously dominate for the basketball market in Milwaukee.  We are going to have a significant chokehold in every way for basketball.  In their situation, if you are going to dump money into a sports program (key point) in order to CREATE a bigger revenue stream, it seems to be common sense to look at football because there is an obvious gap in the market.

It is a shame because I think Marquette has access to more money and would probably have more success at starting a program.  Unless you really think this whole thing is a fad and football is king for only now, I think it is clear that you need to start looking to football program.  Oh well.

[GGGG]

Granted, the topic is misleading.  The question I'm trying to pose is why would football work at UW-M if it won't work at Marquette.  Does UW-M have an advantage in making it work, or are they simply in the same boat as MU?  We've discussed MU football in the Al before, but according to the homepage description, yes... Superbar.

The one advantage UWM has is the ability to charge student fees to support the program.  I have addressed this here before, but that is how a lot of D1 football programs are funded.  Of course students have to give their "approval," (which is a bit of a sham), but what are UWM students going to do?  They are already attending the low cost alternative for four year schools.  Marquette could of course do the same thing, but they are already dealing with the high cost of private school tuition.

Right now, UWM students are charged about $1,000 per year on top of tuition for student fees.  If you increase it by $100, with 20,000 students, you have $2M per year.

Now, remember this guy came from Rutgers right?  Well....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2011-06-28-rutgers-athletic-department-subsidies_n.htm

[GGGG]

I think it is simple.

Why would football at UWM work?  I think because basketball is not working.  Marquette is obviously dominate for the basketball market in Milwaukee.  We are going to have a significant chokehold in every way for basketball.  In their situation, if you are going to dump money into a sports program (key point) in order to CREATE a bigger revenue stream, it seems to be common sense to look at football because there is an obvious gap in the market.

What "obvious gap" is that?  Do you really think people are going to show up to support UWM football when you have Madison on television every week?  I would say, maybe, 15,000 on a good day.  In a stadium that isn't built yet.

And yeah, it is a huge potential revenue producer, but it is a huge cost too.  They would have to start at the FCS non-scholarship level, but then would have to move up to regular FCS, which means huge $$$ for scholarships.  63 scholies for football v. 13 for basketball.  (UWM wouldn't be required to fill all 63 though.)

[ErickJD08]

What "obvious gap" is that?  Do you really think people are going to show up to support UWM football when you have Madison on television every week?  I would say, maybe, 15,000 on a good day.  In a stadium that isn't built yet.

And yeah, it is a huge potential revenue producer, but it is a huge cost too.  They would have to start at the FCS non-scholarship level, but then would have to move up to regular FCS, which means huge $$$ for scholarships.  63 scholies for football v. 13 for basketball.  (UWM wouldn't be required to fill all 63 though.)

The obvious gap is live football in Milwaukee on the college or pro level.  You can't find it.  Outside the student body watching, I am sure you would slowly get support of the community.  Since it would start small, most kids would be local and I am sure plenty of friends and family to give support.

[GGGG]

I was trying to think of schools that would be in similar situations to UWM...large public urban school in a state that already has a premier football teams.  And I came up with a few:  UAB, Houston, UCF...  So I guess if you use those as a model, and you could get a stadium built, they might be able to make something work given their advantage as a public university. 

But I don't think it would ever be very profitable.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Honestly, I think UWM has a better shot than MU.

If they build a cool stadium (I have no idea how or where), and if they eventually had some level of success (say, going .500), they could hook a lot of marginal sports fans.

MU doesn't seem to attract a lot of marginal fans because it's a private institution that doesn't have any built in backing.

Casual fans (non-alums) seem to identify with public schools. UW is obvious, but UWM could probably build a fanbase if their gameday event was good/great. Season tix for football are great because their aren't many games; very easy for casual fans to get interested.

Infrastructure is a huge problem for both schools. Fanbase is probably not as big of a problem for UWM as it is for MU. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but I think UWM has a better shot at drawing 40K per game than MU.

[LON]

Honestly, I think UWM has a better shot than MU.

If they build a cool stadium (I have no idea how or where), and if they eventually had some level of success (say, going .500), they could hook a lot of marginal sports fans.

MU doesn't seem to attract a lot of marginal fans because it's a private institution that doesn't have any built in backing.

Casual fans (non-alums) seem to identify with public schools. UW is obvious, but UWM could probably build a fanbase if their gameday event was good/great. Season tix for football are great because their aren't many games; very easy for casual fans to get interested.

Infrastructure is a huge problem for both schools. Fanbase is probably not as big of a problem for UWM as it is for MU. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but I think UWM has a better shot at drawing 40K per game than MU.

Don't they have a hard enough time drawing 500 students/game for basketball?

[T-Bone]

The one advantage UWM has is the ability to charge student fees to support the program.

Is there anything that is preventing Marquette from charging student fees?  I wouldn't think so being a private institution.

I was trying to think of schools that would be in similar situations to UWM...large public urban school in a state that already has a premier football teams.  And I came up with a few:  UAB, Houston, UCF...  So I guess if you use those as a model, and you could get a stadium built, they might be able to make something work given their advantage as a public university. 

You could maybe throw in Northwestern - with ND and Illinois being the "premier" teams. 

[MerrittsMustache]

You could maybe throw in Northwestern - with ND and Illinois being the "premier" teams. 

Northwestern is not large, public nor urban.

[GGGG]

Infrastructure is a huge problem for both schools. Fanbase is probably not as big of a problem for UWM as it is for MU. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but I think UWM has a better shot at drawing 40K per game than MU.

There's not a chance they draw 40,000.  That would make them the largest FCS school attendance wise....by 15,000 fans!  (Appalachain State draws 25,700 per game...and that's the largest.)  Honestly, I didn't realize that FCS attendance was so crappy.  Only three schools draw over 20,000 per game.  Marquette's basketball attendance would be 12th on the FCS football attendance list.

And wow...didn't realize this...but 40,000 per game would be larger than the average game in the Mountain West Conference, the MAC, the Sun Belt, the WAC and Conference USA.  The MAC only averages 15,600 per game.

[StillAWarrior]

I think it is simple.

Why would football at UWM work?  I think because basketball is not working.  Marquette is obviously dominate for the basketball market in Milwaukee.  We are going to have a significant chokehold in every way for basketball.  In their situation, if you are going to dump money into a sports program (key point) in order to CREATE a bigger revenue stream, it seems to be common sense to look at football because there is an obvious gap in the market.

It is a shame because I think Marquette has access to more money and would probably have more success at starting a program.  Unless you really think this whole thing is a fad and football is king for only now, I think it is clear that you need to start looking to football program.  Oh well.

I think the biggest problem is the assumption that because "football is king" that any football is king.  Make no mistake, Division 1 FBS football is king, and other divisions are something different entirely.  And recent events have shown pretty conclusively that, in reality, only a subset of D1 FBS is king.

I don't think Marquette (or UWM) will benefit financially from fielding a D3 team (or even D2 or D1 FCS).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Don't they have a hard enough time drawing 500 students/game for basketball?

Well, 40K is really a long-shot I know.

And yes, UWM currently struggles to draw fans for hoops, so they would probably struggle to get fans for football as well.

My point was, MU is primarily an alumni/hardcore fan base. Therefore, MU has a bit of a glass ceiling when it comes to attendance. 25K would be a TON for MU, and that would have to include 6K students.

UWM, being a state school, has a better chance of drawing casual people who love Wisconsin stuff, and therefore would enjoy UWM football.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There's not a chance they draw 40,000.  That would make them the largest FCS school attendance wise....by 15,000 fans!  (Appalachain State draws 25,700 per game...and that's the largest.)  Honestly, I didn't realize that FCS attendance was so crappy.  Only three schools draw over 20,000 per game.  Marquette's basketball attendance would be 12th on the FCS football attendance list.

And wow...didn't realize this...but 40,000 per game would be larger than the average game in the Mountain West Conference, the MAC, the Sun Belt, the WAC and Conference USA.  The MAC only averages 15,600 per game.

40K was a stupid number (by me).

I just think UWM (being a state school) has a higher attendance ceiling than MU.

They still face a lot of the same struggles, but it might be more sustainable at UWM.

[GGGG]

I think it is more sustainable because they have a larger financial base from which to work. 

And i guess what is interesting about the attendance figures I posted, is that you don't have to draw 40,000 a game.  What if they drew 15,000 as an FCS school?  And only filled say 50 of their scholarships?  If they could get someone to pony up for a stadium (where I don't know), and screw the students a little bit more, they could make a go of it.  If things break OK they could be in the Missouri Valley football conference with the likes of Youngstown, Northern Iowa, Indiana State, Illnois State, etc.

But they still face huge hurdles.  No stadium.  Very little money.  Dispassionate fan base.

And as for why MU couldn't do those things, there is a reason why schools from that conference are all public.  Private schools just don't have the numbers of students and the financial backing to make it work...especially with the relatively small endowment that MU has.

[Litehouse]

I was trying to think of schools that would be in similar situations to UWM...large public urban school in a state that already has a premier football teams.  And I came up with a few:  UAB, Houston, UCF...  So I guess if you use those as a model, and you could get a stadium built, they might be able to make something work given their advantage as a public university. 

But I don't think it would ever be very profitable.

UNC Charlotte is a great comparison to where UWM is right now.  It will be interesting to see how their program turns out.

Cincy and Temple would be 2 other examples of schools like UAB, Houston and UCF.

[GGGG]

Well, Cincy yeah....Temple is private.  And you are right, Charlotte is a real good example of a blueprint for them to follow.

[Benny B]

Personally, I'm happy that UW-M is spending this money for no other reason than that I'm sure that the report will be publicly available when completed (via FOIA if necessary)

We'll finally be able to see some hard numbers and estimates that will hopefully allow us to label MU Football as either "busted" or "plausible."

[muhs03]

Well, Cincy yeah....Temple is private.  And you are right, Charlotte is a real good example of a blueprint for them to follow.

Temple is a public university with 39k undergrads.

[GGGG]

Temple is a public university with 39k undergrads.

Holy crap.  I have been on this earth for 43 years, and have always been under the assumption that it is a private school.  In fact, it never even crossed my mind that it could be public.

My apologies to Litehouse.  Thank you for correcting my mistake.

[muhs03]

Holy crap.  I have been on this earth for 43 years, and have always been under the assumption that it is a private school.  In fact, it never even crossed my mind that it could be public.

My apologies to Litehouse.  Thank you for correcting my mistake.

Actually, I just looked it up and I take it back. Its a public university with 27k undergrads and 6k grads.