If we must...

[wyzgy]

i think they should have just charged him with manslaughter.  it might upset the new black panthers as they won't be happy until they execute him as they will probably try themselves.  but with manslaughter, they have more leeway to allow the charges to stick.  2nd degree could get a little dicey and more of a chance he gets off completely.  if that happens, i'm  going to alaska for about 2-3 weeks

[Hoopaloop]

New evidence comes to the public light today

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FQs9lWBIQ

[NavinRJohnson]

i think they should have just charged him with manslaughter.  it might upset the new black panthers as they won't be happy until they execute him as they will probably try themselves.  but with manslaughter, they have more leeway to allow the charges to stick.  2nd degree could get a little dicey and more of a chance he gets off completely.  if that happens, i'm  going to alaska for about 2-3 weeks

Start packing. I agree with you. Charging as she did, the prosecutor set the table for Rodney King/LA all over again when he is acquitted. All these folks who have been claiming they they just wanted to see him charged and tried, will suddenly be claiming that the justice system didn't work. Something tells me we ain't seen nothin yet.

[MUBurrow]

New evidence comes to the public light today

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FQs9lWBIQ

Glad this is out there, but it doesnt change a ton for me. I never really doubted that there was some kind of physical confrontation - but I think there are a lot of angles that will make this as much a question of law even more than a question of fact.

Say for instance that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in a way that was obvious to Trayvon he was being followed. At that point, does Zimmerman's guilt or innocence depend on who touched who first? Seems kind of weird in that if Trayvon touched Zimmerman first, his intuition as to why to do so would be exactly right - he was being followed by a man with a weapon who wasnt afraid to use it.

Slightly changing it, what if Trayvon approached Zimmerman and Zimmerman made first physical contact, at which point he was overpowered, then legitimately was in fear for his life? Do his actions leading up to that point rule out any possible self defense from that point forward? Raises interesting questions in a one-on-one context, and in a context where someone would come to the aid of the person who was not the aggressor (ie in this hypo, Trayvon) as well.  You could say that Trayvon's menacing approach of Zimmerman was an aggressor behavior, but you'd get laughed out of a courtroom when you're defending the man with the gun who took the initiative to follow in the first place.

I'm not so much trying to speculate as to what exactly happened in this case, more just pointing out that there are some interesting (and at this point problematic) gray areas in the intersection between the Stand Your Ground Law and normal self defense.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Glad this is out there, but it doesnt change a ton for me. I never really doubted that there was some kind of physical confrontation - but I think there are a lot of angles that will make this as much a question of law even more than a question of fact.

Say for instance that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in a way that was obvious to Trayvon he was being followed. At that point, does Zimmerman's guilt or innocence depend on who touched who first? Seems kind of weird in that if Trayvon touched Zimmerman first, his intuition as to why to do so would be exactly right - he was being followed by a man with a weapon who wasnt afraid to use it.

Slightly changing it, what if Trayvon approached Zimmerman and Zimmerman made first physical contact, at which point he was overpowered, then legitimately was in fear for his life? Do his actions leading up to that point rule out any possible self defense from that point forward? Raises interesting questions in a one-on-one context, and in a context where someone would come to the aid of the person who was not the aggressor (ie in this hypo, Trayvon) as well.  You could say that Trayvon's menacing approach of Zimmerman was an aggressor behavior, but you'd get laughed out of a courtroom when you're defending the man with the gun who took the initiative to follow in the first place.

I'm not so much trying to speculate as to what exactly happened in this case, more just pointing out that there are some interesting (and at this point problematic) gray areas in the intersection between the Stand Your Ground Law and normal self defense.

If I carry a gun, get in a fight on Water St., and shoot the dude who is kicking my ass, is that self defense?

Probably depends upon the altercation leading up to it, and who threw the first punch.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Two people who both  made seriously poor decisions with disastrous results

[Skatastrophy]

He should go to jail.  He killed an unarmed kid for no reason after stalking the kid around his neighborhood with a gun on him.

I would not want that dude living in my neighborhood.  That's for sure.  What's he gonna do?  Follow me around if he doesn't like the way I'm walking around?  Eff that.

[Hards Alumni]

He should go to jail.  He killed an unarmed kid for no reason after stalking the kid around his neighborhood with a gun on him.

I would not want that dude living in my neighborhood.  That's for sure.  What's he gonna do?  Follow me around if he doesn't like the way I'm walking around?  Eff that.

This is mostly how I feel as well.

[NavinRJohnson]

He killed an unarmed kid for no reason after stalking the kid around his neighborhood with a gun on him.

You know that, how?

[Hoopaloop]

He should go to jail.  He killed an unarmed kid for no reason after stalking the kid around his neighborhood with a gun on him.

I would not want that dude living in my neighborhood.  That's for sure.  What's he gonna do?  Follow me around if he doesn't like the way I'm walking around?  Eff that.

No reason at all?  Are you in law enforcement in Florida that you know all the details?  Were you there?  There is nothing illegal will following someone around.  Now, if I'm following you around and then you attack me and beat my head into the concrete, if I feel you are about to knock me out or kill me, I will do whatever I have to.

He got himself into trouble by following the guy, but if his story is correct that he was then attacked and beaten the way he was, what is he supposed to do?  Just let him bash his skull in and die from blunt force trauma to the head?

[MUBurrow]

He got himself into trouble by following the guy, but if his story is correct that he was then attacked and beaten the way he was, what is he supposed to do?  Just let him bash his skull in and die from blunt force trauma to the head?

Or go to jail for killing someone. Those are the options with which he left himself.

[wyzgy]

now that the legal process has started, i just wish al sharpton, jesse jackson, louis farakan. spike lee. mike tyson, the lame-stream media and all the rest of the "spokespeople" for the africanamericans would throw away the vitriole and call off their people and call for calm and let the process play our civilly.  i thought most of these people were against the death penalty,,,and that was after a trial. not before.  plus they are beating up any caucasion they feel like,  just wait until they throw the verdict out,  if i had a store in any african region-i'm either getting a bunch of guard dogs or i'm emptying out the store and closing up.  it's gonna be a free for all making the rodney king riots look like civility.  oh, and another observation-they are beating up white people,  wasn't george zimmerman a hispanic??  problem is we are all people,  some are just more equal than others..............

[Hards Alumni]

now that the legal process has started, i just wish al sharpton, jesse jackson, louis farakan. spike lee. mike tyson, the lame-stream media and all the rest of the "spokespeople" for the africanamericans would throw away the vitriole and call off their people and call for calm and let the process play our civilly.  i thought most of these people were against the death penalty,,,and that was after a trial. not before.  plus they are beating up any caucasion they feel like,  just wait until they throw the verdict out,  if i had a store in any african region-i'm either getting a bunch of guard dogs or i'm emptying out the store and closing up.  it's gonna be a free for all making the rodney king riots look like civility.  oh, and another observation-they are beating up white people,  wasn't george zimmerman a hispanic??  problem is we are all people,  some are just more equal than others..............

If someone looked up the word, "rambling", this is the picture they would see

[MerrittsMustache]

Or go to jail for killing someone. Those are the options with which he left himself.

Or go free because of Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

[ATWizJr]

Or go free because of Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

or be acquitted of all charges because it was self defense.  Or have the case thrown out entirely by the judge for improper charges.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this.

What if Trayvon was a girl? (race doesn't matter in this scenario)

A neighborhood watch commander starts following her through a neighborhood. She hides and eventually attacks him with some sort of improvised weapon (rock, keys, etc).

She hits him in the head and he shoots her during the altercation.

Now, we don't know exactly why she hid and attacked (she died), and he claims he was following her as part of neighborhood watch (same police phone calls as zimmerman case). 

Does that make a difference?

[ATWizJr]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this.

What if Trayvon was a girl? (race doesn't matter in this scenario)

A neighborhood watch commander starts following her through a neighborhood. She hides and eventually attacks him with some sort of improvised weapon (rock, keys, etc).

She hits him in the head and he shoots her during the altercation.

Now, we don't know exactly why she hid and attacked (she died), and he claims he was following her as part of neighborhood watch (same police phone calls as zimmerman case). 

Does that make a difference?

  Hmmm....I guess a more vulnerable figure would elicit more sympathy than, in some cases, Trayvon's maleness has generated.  But, I'd have to say if she attacked him and he felt that his life was at stake, then the use of deadly force in defense of his life is justified.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

  Hmmm....I guess a more vulnerable figure would elicit more sympathy than, in some cases, Trayvon's maleness has generated.  But, I'd have to say if she attacked him and he felt that his life was at stake, then the use of deadly force in defense of his life is justified.

I think the problem in both scenarios is that we don't know how/why the altercation began. If the girl was attacking because she thought he was a stalker/rapist, it would be hard to argue against that. Same goes for Trayvon.

Unfortunately, in both cases, only one person survived, and now we are left to put together the pieces based upon his testimony and some fuzzy evidence from 911 calls. 

[ATWizJr]

I think the problem in both scenarios is that we don't know how/why the altercation began. If the girl was attacking because she thought he was a stalker/rapist, it would be hard to argue against that. Same goes for Trayvon.

Unfortunately, in both cases, only one person survived, and now we are left to put together the pieces based upon his testimony and some fuzzy evidence from 911 calls. 

Until the details are known it is impossible to place blame regardless of the gender or race of either party.

[MerrittsMustache]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this.

What if Trayvon was a girl? (race doesn't matter in this scenario)

A neighborhood watch commander starts following her through a neighborhood. She hides and eventually attacks him with some sort of improvised weapon (rock, keys, etc).

She hits him in the head and he shoots her during the altercation.

Now, we don't know exactly why she hid and attacked (she died), and he claims he was following her as part of neighborhood watch (same police phone calls as zimmerman case). 

Does that make a difference?

It would make a significant difference because you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who'd believe that a 28-year-old man in good physical condition was being overpowered by a 17-year-old girl. The shooter would also likely be viewed as a molester/rapist because he was following around a teenage girl, regardless of whether or not she fit the description of a person who had recently burglarized the neighborhood.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It would make a significant difference because you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who'd believe that a 28-year-old man in good physical condition was being overpowered by a 17-year-old girl. The shooter would also likely be viewed as a molester/rapist because he was following around a teenage girl, regardless of whether or not she fit the description of a person who had recently burglarized the neighborhood.

Agree. We live in the real world, and it would be easy to portray the man as some sort of stalker and say that the teenaged girl hit him out of fear. Jury would have a tough time believing self defense for a dude that was following a girl.

But, it's the same scenario that we have going with Trayvon. Did Trayvon lash out at Zimmerman out of fear? If Trayvon was really scared, why didn't he just run? Who was pleading/screaming on the 911 calls? Did Zimmerman shoot for self defense, or anger after Trayvon hit him?

It will be interesting to see how the forensics play out.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Until the details are known it is impossible to place blame regardless of the gender or race of either party.

Legally, you are correct.

However, as I've said before, I just don't like Zimmerman's whole act, and I think this whole thing is easily preventable with a little more common sense and less gun play.
- wear a yellow jacket and clearly identify yourself to everybody you see
- work in pairs
- use large flashlights so everybody in the neighborhood sees you out walking around
- don't go against dispatcher's instructions
etc. etc.

BUT, we've already gone around and around on that stuff.

It's all about the legality now.

[MerrittsMustache]

Legally, you are correct.

However, as I've said before, I just don't like Zimmerman's whole act, and I think this whole thing is easily preventable with a little more common sense and less gun play.
- wear a yellow jacket and clearly identify yourself to everybody you see
- work in pairs
- use large flashlights so everybody in the neighborhood sees you out walking around
- don't go against dispatcher's instructions
etc. etc.

BUT, we've already gone around and around on that stuff.

It's all about the legality now.

Common sense? Don't you think that's asking a little too much?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Common sense? Don't you think that's asking a little too much?

Plenty of things in this world that are legal, but aren't good common sense.

But, I suppose if they can prove your lack of common sense led to a death, that is illegal... but it's not murder... which opens up a whole different can of worms.

[Lennys Tap]

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this.

What if Trayvon was a girl? (race doesn't matter in this scenario)

A neighborhood watch commander starts following her through a neighborhood. She hides and eventually attacks him with some sort of improvised weapon (rock, keys, etc).

She hits him in the head and he shoots her during the altercation.

Now, we don't know exactly why she hid and attacked (she died), and he claims he was following her as part of neighborhood watch (same police phone calls as zimmerman case).  

Does that make a difference?

What if Zimmerman was a girl? And/or African American? And what if Trayvon was "half white", as some media reports describe Zimmerman? And isn't that descriptiion in and of itself an interesting topic for discussion? My guess is if any component of this story change people's narratives change with it.