White Privilege at MU

[MU82]

never said that, did i?  please do not read any more into what i said, than what i said

Classic racial profiling.

Have any of you ever been to poor white parts of this country?  If you have, you will see the police profile them, too.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[mu03eng]

Have any of you ever been to poor white parts of this country?  If you have, you will see the police profile them, too.  I'm in agreement with you that minorities are overly profiled, but it is not alone based on race, but all too often on who commits crime, which is typically the poor as a result of need.

I have(lived in 'em too) and they don't, not nearly the same way. Do you deny that in a police situation that race has an impact on how that situation ends?

[WarriorDad]

Absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not saying it is equivalent.  There is no comparison, but it does happen.  Police tend to profile based on poverty because that is linked to crime.  Minorities tend to be poorer. It can also happen in certain neighborhoods that are prominent with one race or another.  Definitely not the same level or degree.  An example

https://patch.com/new-york/easthampton/racial-profiling-it-happens-white-people-too

[WarriorDad]

I have(lived in 'em too) and they don't, not nearly the same way. Do you deny that in a police situation that race has an impact on how that situation ends?

Not sure if you are a Washington Post fan, but here is an article that touches on it in the last section.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/04/police-union-on-brown-and-garner-we-dont-believe-its-an-issue-of-race-we-believe-its-an-issue-of-poverty/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6363432194b0

In full transparency, someone in my family is a member of law enforcement and she echoes this belief, that ultimately it is poverty based.  As a result, that means profiling will happen to all races, but more to minorities.  That does not exclude whites, and in poor areas where poor whites make up a significant portion of society, they are profiled if you wish to use that term.  She does not like that term, by the way.

[WarriorDad]

Is Sterling Brown poor?  What would lead the Police to believe that he is poor?

You seem to be confusing me with someone else.  What happened to Brown should not have happened at all.  It happens far too often to minorities.  That doesn't mean it never happens to other races, because it does, but to a lesser degree.  Poverty is the key.

[Jockey]

I guess cops can't tell if the black guys are rich or poor. They all look alike. 

[MU82]

I'm not saying it is equivalent.  There is no comparison, but it does happen. Definitely not the same level or degree.

In full transparency, someone in my family is a member of law enforcement and she echoes this belief, that ultimately it is poverty based.

If it is "definitely not the same level or degree," and if "there is no comparison," then it is not "ultimately" poverty based.

I have seen no evidence to convince me that it is anything but "ultimately" race based. Sometimes (but not very often) it happens to poor white people too.

[WarriorDad]

If it is "definitely not the same level or degree," and if "there is no comparison," then it is not "ultimately" poverty based.

I have seen no evidence to convince me that it is anything but "ultimately" race based. Sometimes (but not very often) it happens to poor white people too.

At least you came around to admitting it happens to all races.  It is poverty based, if most of the poor are minorities, then they will be profiled more.  The question is whether it is racial or based on poverty?  With what I hear from law enforcement, how they are trained, the strategies used, even the science behind it, poverty is the driver.  Poverty is where crime occurs, and law enforcement is deployed where crime occurs. 

[MU82]

At least you came around to admitting it happens to all races.  It is poverty based, if most of the poor are minorities, then they will be profiled more.  The question is whether it is racial or based on poverty?  With what I hear from law enforcement, how they are trained, the strategies used, even the science behind it, poverty is the driver.  Poverty is where crime occurs, and law enforcement is deployed where crime occurs.

You are allowed to think whatever you want, including that I "came around" to something.

Yes, I admit that it has happened to some white people, both poor and rich. I admit that it has happened to Christians and Jews and people with one leg and fat people and skinny people.

It's like arguing about discrimination itself. Yes, every race, religion, creed and color has been discriminated against at some point.

But discrimination - like this cop stuff - happens mostly to black men.

Trying to muddy the debate by pulling out examples of others it has happened to ... that's a favorite trick of the aggrieved white, Christian, middle-class males that Ben Folds sings about.

[rocket surgeon]

   "But discrimination - like this cop stuff - happens mostly to black men."

  so if the violence against "black men" occurs via a black police officer, or hispanic or any other minority police, is it discrimination?

[jesmu84]

   "But discrimination - like this cop stuff - happens mostly to black men."

  so if the violence against "black men" occurs via a black police officer, or hispanic or any other minority police, is it discrimination?

Yes. Next question

[GGGG]

   "But discrimination - like this cop stuff - happens mostly to black men."

  so if the violence against "black men" occurs via a black police officer, or hispanic or any other minority police, is it discrimination?

Of course.

[GGGG]

You seem to be confusing me with someone else.  What happened to Brown should not have happened at all.  It happens far too often to minorities.  That doesn't mean it never happens to other races, because it does, but to a lesser degree.  Poverty is the key.

Brown isn’t impoverished. You are making a bad argument.

[rocket surgeon]

Yes. Next question

  is it racist?

[GGGG]

  is it racist?

Yes. People can be racist against their own race.

[Pakuni]

  is it racist?

Black people can be socially conditioned to unreasonably fear black people just as easily as white people can.

[StillAWarrior]

  so if the violence against "black men" occurs via a black police officer, or hispanic or any other minority police, is it discrimination?

  is it racist?

I'll offer a different opinion/answer to both questions:  impossible to tell without more information.

I think the incident with Brown was unquestionably discriminatory and racist.  There are a lot of factors that lead me to that conclusion.

I think anybody that provides a definitive answer to these questions -- either in the affirmative or in the negative -- without more information, is admitting that they don't think the facts matter in these cases.  That's a problem. On both sides.

[MU82]

I'll offer a different opinion/answer to both questions:  impossible to tell without more information.

I think the incident with Brown was unquestionably discriminatory and racist.  There are a lot of factors that lead me to that conclusion.

I think anybody that provides a definitive answer to these questions -- either in the affirmative or in the negative -- without more information, is admitting that they don't think the facts matter in these cases.  That's a problem. On both sides.

That's reasonable, Still.

But as long as we're all generalizing (not saying you did here at all; in fact, you try to avoid doing so, to your credit.) ... generally, I'd say that yes, it is discrimination. It certainly is racial profiling, which might or might not meet the definition of "racism" for some.

It's almost comical to watch the way some of my fellow Caucasians work so hard to try to find an "out" or a "gotcha" when it comes to racism.

Reverse discrimination, black-on-black crime, rare examples of whitey getting profiled, etc. "Aha! See? The victims aren't just blacks!"

I'm not sure why they can't accept the overwhelming evidence that men of color are discriminated against so much more often than others.

[StillAWarrior]

That's reasonable, Still.

But as long as we're all generalizing (not saying you did here at all; in fact, you try to avoid doing so, to your credit.) ... generally, I'd say that yes, it is discrimination. It certainly is racial profiling, which might or might not meet the definition of "racism" for some.

It's almost comical to watch the way some of my fellow Caucasians work so hard to try to find an "out" or a "gotcha" when it comes to racism.

Reverse discrimination, black-on-black crime, rare examples of whitey getting profiled, etc. "Aha! See? The victims aren't just blacks!"

I'm not sure why they can't accept the overwhelming evidence that men of color are discriminated against so much more often than others.

I generally agree with the things that you've said here.  I think it's unfortunate that some people have such knee-jerk reactions on these questions.  They are often very difficult, complex situations.

And, while I would tend to agree with your "general" statement, I know from first hand experience that if I take a position that is contrary to that "general" principal in a specific case, it's pretty likely that I will be called a racist.  I find that offensive.

[rocket surgeon]

I generally agree with the things that you've said here.  I think it's unfortunate that some people have such knee-jerk reactions on these questions.  They are often very difficult, complex situations.

And, while I would tend to agree with your "general" statement, I know from first hand experience that if I take a position that is contrary to that "general" principal in a specific case, it's pretty likely that I will be called a racist.  I find that offensive.

i like all of this.  seriously, i'm learning something here.  what i find most difficult is, with all good intentions, i find myself wandering into racist waters and don't even realize it.  think this way...no, that way...no, that's offensive to this person...whoopsie, too much the other way...

 can i have a reasonable fear of- fill in the blank people, if i am walking in certain areas...i'm afraid to stick up for myself or my family here for fear of getting blasted.  my suggestion or question if i may, can we be a little more reasonable here and use some common sense without dropping the "R" bomb so quickly? 

[GGGG]

I generally agree with the things that you've said here.  I think it's unfortunate that some people have such knee-jerk reactions on these questions.  They are often very difficult, complex situations.

And, while I would tend to agree with your "general" statement, I know from first hand experience that if I take a position that is contrary to that "general" principal in a specific case, it's pretty likely that I will be called a racist.  I find that offensive.

Wah wahhhhhhh! 

[WarriorDad]

You are allowed to think whatever you want, including that I "came around" to something.

Yes, I admit that it has happened to some white people, both poor and rich. I admit that it has happened to Christians and Jews and people with one leg and fat people and skinny people.

It's like arguing about discrimination itself. Yes, every race, religion, creed and color has been discriminated against at some point.

But discrimination - like this cop stuff - happens mostly to black men.

Trying to muddy the debate by pulling out examples of others it has happened to ... that's a favorite trick of the aggrieved white, Christian, middle-class males that Ben Folds sings about.

   Will repeat, it happens far more to minorities, I think white privilege exists.  The only reason it was brought up was to show it is not solely an issue for some groups based on race, but for the life of me it is hard to understand why some are pushing back against that since is completely true.  All races, genders, social classes have been profiled to one extent or another. That doesn't mean equally, which I indicated from the start.

[WarriorDad]

Wah wahhhhhhh!

You think it is a good idea to label people racist whenever one feels like? 

[rocket surgeon]

You think it is a good idea to label people racist whenever one feels like?

you're a racist just for asking

[GGGG]

You think it is a good idea to label people racist whenever one feels like? 

Yes.