Oppenheimer

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I imagine the British were tired too - they’d been at it years more than the Americans.

We also were still fighting in the Pacific.  The European theater troops were headed there next.  The invasion of the Home Islands was still on the planning table too.  1-2million more soldiers needed.

[Uncle Rico]

I imagine the British were tired too - they’d been at it years more than the Americans.

That’s the point.  The idea Britain or America were willing to fight towards Moscow is wishful thinking.  I agree with Muggs Post-WWI strategy and policy was a disaster.  So was WWII but we did the best we could.  Rolling the tanks would have been worse.

Churchill, FDR or Truman didn’t had any positive illusions about Stalin or the USSR.  None of them were going to direct troops towards Moscow.

[tower912]

Stalin sat with Churchill, FDR and Truman and helped stop the fascists.    In hindsight, yes, he was a murderous bastard.   In real time and realpolitik, you simply do not immediately turn on a leader and country with whom you were allied within a matter of weeks.  Plus, the world was exhausted.

[MuggsyB]

That’s the point.  The idea Britain or America were willing to fight towards Moscow is wishful thinking.  I agree with Muggs Post-WWI strategy and policy was a disaster.  So was WWII but we did the best we could.  Rolling the tanks would have been worse.


Churchill, FDR or Truman didn’t had any positive illusions about Stalin or the USSR.  None of them were going to direct troops towards Moscow.

Churchill absolutely discussed very seriously with his staff the idea of invading Russia.  Apparently everyone is tired or was tired except Winston because he foresaw the entire picture.  And as far as not having a stomach for war do we have a stomach for the Gulags, Cultural Revolution,  Cambodia, etc?  We agree for the most part:  our post WW2 geopolitical strategies and decisions have been unmitigated and inexcusable disasters. 

[tower912]

Our pre WW2 geopolitical policies weren't so great.

[MuggsyB]

Our pre WW2 geopolitical policies weren't so great.

True. 

[Pakuni]

Churchill absolutely discussed very seriously with his staff the idea of invading Russia.  Apparently everyone is tired or was tired except Winston because he foresaw the entire picture.  And as far as not having a stomach for war do we have a stomach for the Gulags, Cultural Revolution,  Cambodia, etc?  We agree for the most part:  our post WW2 geopolitical strategies and decisions have been unmitigated and inexcusable disasters.

If I'm understanding you correctly - and please let me know if I'm not - you're advocating for an invasion of Russia that had zero guarantee of success - and, in fact, history suggests otherwise - and would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives, if not more, on both sides ... in hopes of avoiding what? The Gulags?
I don't mean to blithely dismiss the horrors of the Gulags, but it's a tough sell to say a couple hundred thousand Americans and Brits should die, along maybe twice as many Russians, in the hopes of avoiding the Gulags.
Honestly, I think you're far underselling the horrors of more WWII on the U.S. and greatly overselling the impact of Stalinism on the U.S.

Also, what makes you believe invading Russia would have prevented the Cultural Revolution, Cambodia, etc.? Where's the direct line there?

[MuggsyB]

If I'm understanding you correctly - and please let me know if I'm not - you're advocating for an invasion of Russia that had zero guarantee of success - and, in fact, history suggests otherwise - and would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives, if not more, on both sides ... in hopes of avoiding what? The Gulags?
I don't mean to blithely dismiss the horrors of the Gulags, but it's a tough sell to say a couple hundred thousand Americans and Brits should die, along maybe twice as many Russians, in the hopes of avoiding the Gulags.
Honestly, I think you're far underselling the horrors of more WWII on the U.S. and greatly overselling the impact of Stalinism on the U.S.

Also, what makes you believe invading Russia would have prevented the Cultural Revolution, Cambodia, etc.? Where's the direct line there?

Ideologically I think Stalin's government had a major impact on future governments in these aforementioned places and obviously the future of Russia.  There are no certainties with these situations of course. 

[Pakuni]

Ideologically I think Stalin's government had a major impact on future governments in these aforementioned places and obviously the future of Russia.  There are no certainties with these situations of course.

The Chinese communist movement already was well established before the rise of Stalin or WWII.

[MuggsyB]

The Chinese communist movement already was well established before the rise of Stalin or WWII.

Yes. LI-Tai-Zhou. But Maoism took it to a terrible level. 

[Hards Alumni]

Churchill absolutely discussed very seriously with his staff the idea of invading Russia.  Apparently everyone is tired or was tired except Winston because he foresaw the entire picture.  And as far as not having a stomach for war do we have a stomach for the Gulags, Cultural Revolution,  Cambodia, etc?  We agree for the most part:  our post WW2 geopolitical strategies and decisions have been unmitigated and inexcusable disasters.

Churchill was not the genius you think he was, and the British were very tired of him by the end of the war.

Your personal fear of Communism is very 1950s oriented, and seems to only acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Soviets... while wholly ignoring the USA's hand in coup's and human suffering.

Invading Russia would have cost millions of Allied lives, and would have shown the world that the US was willing to turn its back on an ally at a moments notice. 

What a mammoth waste of time, lives, and money that would have been.  You can't beat ideology with bombs, you need diplomacy for that.

[Uncle Rico]

Churchill was not the genius you think he was, and the British were very tired of him by the end of the war.

Your personal fear of Communism is very 1950s oriented, and seems to only acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Soviets... while wholly ignoring the USA's hand in coup's and human suffering.

Invading Russia would have cost millions of Allied lives, and would have shown the world that the US was willing to turn its back on an ally at a moments notice. 

What a mammoth waste of time, lives, and money that would have been.  You can't beat ideology with bombs, you need diplomacy for that.

Bingo

Revisionist history of what we should have done, shouldn’t include tanks onto Moscow.

Now, if you want to blast the CIA and American foreign policy post-WWII, absolutely.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not to mention both the American and British public had NO desire to continue the war. Anyone who thinks that invading the USSR would have been a good idea is a poor student of history. It would have been a disaster.

[MUBurrow]

Ideologically I think Stalin's government had a major impact on future governments in these aforementioned places and obviously the future of Russia.  There are no certainties with these situations of course.

Muggs, I gotta say I love your enthusiasm for fighting ideas with bullets.

[#UnleashSean]

Scoop's tired legs philosphy is leaking into the superbar.

Yes, there were actually very serious talks from the allied countries (excluding USSR obviously) about continuing a war with the USSR. Including folding the Wehrmacht into the action after they defeated Hitler.

[MuggsyB]

Not to mention both the American and British public had NO desire to continue the war. Anyone who thinks that invading the USSR would have been a good idea is a poor student of history. It would have been a disaster.

Sounds exactly like Neville C in 1938.  How did that work out?  Whoops. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Sounds exactly like Neville C in 1938.  How did that work out?  Whoops. 

Actually it sounds nothing like it, because America and the West actually won the Cold War.

I don't understand how you can't see this, but the western course of action post WWII actually worked. If you would go back a few decades and told people that the USSR would break apart, and that much of eastern Europe would be democratic, members of the EU and even NATO members, every single person would have said that was an absolute victory.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Scoop's tired legs philosphy is leaking into the superbar.

Yes, there were actually very serious talks from the allied countries (excluding USSR obviously) about continuing a war with the USSR. Including folding the Wehrmacht into the action after they defeated Hitler.

I don't know what you mean by "very serious talks," but there were plans drawn up by the UK that the US was apparently never all that interested in pursuing. And at best would have kicked the USSR out of Germany and Poland. They were never talking about going on to Moscow like Muggs is suggesting.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually it sounds nothing like it, because America and the West actually won the Cold War.

True, though it took nearly 40 years.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

True, though it took nearly 40 years.

I mean yeah. It was that or Muggsy's idea of invading Russia. What was less expensive in terms of dollars and human life?

I doubt it was invading a country that twice in about a 100 years time already ran roughshod over "unstoppable" invading armies.

[MuggsyB]

I mean yeah. It was that or Muggsy's idea of invading Russia. What was less expensive in terms of dollars and human life?

I doubt it was invading a country that twice in about a 100 years time already ran roughshod over "unstoppable" invading armies.

People thought Winston was crazy.  He clearly wasn't.  And comparing a potential invasion at that moment, to Russia's 100 yr past, is not applicable at all. 

[MuggsyB]

True, though it took nearly 40 years.

And it would have taken zero years Lenny if I was in charge.   

[Uncle Rico]

And it would have taken zero years Lenny if I was in charge.   

Just millions of lives, not counting the likely wars that would follow.

It’s pretty simpleminded thinking to believe the world would have seen America as a champion in the scenario you believe should have played out.  In fact, it’s stupid

[MuggsyB]

Just millions of lives, not counting the likely wars that would follow.

It’s pretty simpleminded thinking to believe the world would have seen America as a champion in the scenario you believe should have played out.  In fact, it’s stupid

Apparently you have forgotten the millions of lives lost post WW2. 

[Pakuni]

Apparently you have forgotten the millions of lives lost post WW2.

We should have saved millions of Russian lives ... by killing millions of Russians, and losing several hundred thousand Allied lives along the way?