Wisconsin

[MU82]

It was magically going to disappear.  Abject failure by the executive branch.  Will go down in history as the greatest failure by a president ever.  But he fights

To me, it looks like he has moved on. He now only repeats over and over that he has done a great job - the best job any president ever has done facing any crisis - and we have won. The fight against the coronavirus is over.

He is now in full-scale "Obamagate" mode. And getting his criminal cohorts out of prison. And vindictively attacking anybody who ever crossed him. And opening up the country haphazardly even though his own guidelines aren't being met and even though tens of thousands more will die needlessly. These next 8 months could be very costly to our great democratic republic.

[pacearrow02]

Evers is trying to reach the goals the president set for reopening our country. And now our president is Tweeting about how great this is for Wisconsin when we did not reach the goals he set.

Great leadership!

We have reached the goals the task force put in place.  There is one additional metric the badger bounce back plan has though (decrease in influenza like illnesses) that we haven’t hit yet.  The federal benchmarks have been hit for awhile.

[reinko]

We have reached the goals the task force put in place.  There is one additional metric the badger bounce back plan has though (decrease in influenza like illnesses) that we haven’t hit yet.  The federal benchmarks have been hit for awhile.

You are joking right?

This plan, laid last month?  The benchmarks of this plan have been hit for awhile?

https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2020/04/16/WHReopeningDoc.pdf

[pacearrow02]

You are joking right?

This plan, laid last month?  The benchmarks of this plan have been hit for awhile?

https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2020/04/16/WHReopeningDoc.pdf

Yes, that plan.  I didn’t realize in that 14 page plan you just sent they had influenza like illnesses included so I guess it’s not an additional element to badger bounce back but everything else has been hit.

[Hards Alumni]

Hospital workers pulling insane hours?  NYC sure, I can’t think of one hospital I’ve spoken with in the entire state that was been forced to work insane hours.  Quite the opposite actually.  They’ve had furloughs and pay cuts everywhere.

Okay, so if I take out the word insane and replace it with stressful or extraordinary would you feel better?  Does it change that the people flooding bars don't actually believe the hero worship that they profess?  When the hospitals are loaded up with covid patients in a couple of weeks and the nurses and doctors are staring death in the face for 'drinks with the bros!' is that okay with you?  The reason the numbers are low is because we're doing the right thing.  And now that we've had success with that, we're just going to throw it in the bin because Karen needs her hair dyed?  Nice to see how little human life means to a lot of people. 

Well, unless they're fetuses.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes, that plan.  I didn’t realize in that 14 page plan you just sent they had influenza like illnesses included so I guess it’s not an additional element to badger bounce back but everything else has been hit.

Everything has been hit to get us to Phase 1. Which is why the state was lifting orders slowly before May 26.

Look I don’t mind if it was decided that we enter Phase 1 today instead of 10 days from now. But it is insane that we have this county by county approach. The court effed up by not issuing a stay. Big time.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I also don't disagree with a regional based approach a la Illinois.  But that's not what Wisconsin is doing now.  We have counties in the same metropolitan area with completely different standards in place.

[pacearrow02]

Okay, so if I take out the word insane and replace it with stressful or extraordinary would you feel better?  Does it change that the people flooding bars don't actually believe the hero worship that they profess?  When the hospitals are loaded up with covid patients in a couple of weeks and the nurses and doctors are staring death in the face for 'drinks with the bros!' is that okay with you?  The reason the numbers are low is because we're doing the right thing.  And now that we've had success with that, we're just going to throw it in the bin because Karen needs her hair dyed?  Nice to see how little human life means to a lot of people. 

Well, unless they're fetuses.

You act like the avg day for an ER/ICU nurse is spent giving flu shots and that not until Covid have these people had to deal with trauma and death. 

From what I’ve been told the unknown and panic of the first few weeks was stressful and a handful were busy but far from overwhelmed.  Those feelings of anxiousness have been gone for the better part of 5-6 weeks and have been replaced by fear of losing their job and borderline boredom. 

[pacearrow02]

You act like the avg day for an ER/ICU nurse is spent giving flu shots and that not until Covid have these people had to deal with trauma and death. 

From what I’ve been told the unknown and panic of the first few weeks was stressful and a handful were busy but far from overwhelmed.  Those feelings of anxiousness have been gone for the better part of 5-6 weeks and have been replaced by fear of losing their job and borderline boredom.

Any metro area ICU and any given day has about 20-25% of their patients in attic isolation protocol because of some dangerous infectious disease.  Covid is just the latest.

[Hards Alumni]

You act like the avg day for an ER/ICU nurse is spent giving flu shots and that not until Covid have these people had to deal with trauma and death. 

From what I’ve been told the unknown and panic of the first few weeks was stressful and a handful were busy but far from overwhelmed.  Those feelings of anxiousness have been gone for the better part of 5-6 weeks and have been replaced by fear of losing their job and borderline boredom.

 

[pacearrow02]

Why the eye roll?  I don’t get why you can’t acknowledge that the public has done their part to flatten the curve and whether or not you think it’s time to open back up you should be able to look at the last couple weeks through an objective lens and acknowledge things are pretty well under control.  If anything it’s a tip of the cap to Evers but you’re so obsessed with criticizing the federal gov’t response you refuse to acknowledge any level of success anywhere.  Classic case of DTS

[Lighthouse 84]

Everything has been hit to get us to Phase 1. Which is why the state was lifting orders slowly before May 26.

Look I don’t mind if it was decided that we enter Phase 1 today instead of 10 days from now. But it is insane that we have this county by county approach. The court effed up by not issuing a stay. Big time.

The legislature is who effed up.  Get together and come up with a plan that is enforceable.  If the will of the Wisconsin voters (through their representatives) is that Evers plan should be ratified, then they should do it.  Or not do it.  But the power to make laws doesn't reside with the executive. 

The same holds true in Illinois.  Illinois law restricts the governor's emergency powers to 30 days.  He doesn't have the authority to continue it without the legislature.  That's why the Illinois representative's suit against Pritzker was successful. 

Evers' and Pritzker's executive orders could be the most sound orders ever.  But just because they each have a pen and a phone, doesn't give them authority to make law in the absence of the legislature acting.  Let the legislature make their executive orders law and then the executive can enforce the law.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The legislature is who effed up.  Get together and come up with a plan that is enforceable.  If the will of the Wisconsin voters (through their representatives) is that Evers plan should be ratified, then they should do it.  Or not do it.  But the power to make laws doesn't reside with the executive. 

The same holds true in Illinois.  Illinois law restricts the governor's emergency powers to 30 days.  He doesn't have the authority to continue it without the legislature.  That's why the Illinois representative's suit against Pritzker was successful. 

Evers' and Pritzker's executive orders could be the most sound orders ever.  But just because they each have a pen and a phone, doesn't give them authority to make law in the absence of the legislature acting.  Let the legislature make their executive orders law and then the executive can enforce the law.

I don't disagree and said earlier in the thread that the Court made a choice between two conflicting laws.  The problem I have was the not issueing the stay, which would have given the executive and legislature time to sort things out.  A stay that both parties requested.  The result has been problematic.  It's going to be hard to put the genie back in the bottle again, and I fear the result will be a patchwork of ineffective policies.

[Hards Alumni]

Why the eye roll?  I don’t get why you can’t acknowledge that the public has done their part to flatten the curve and whether or not you think it’s time to open back up you should be able to look at the last couple weeks through an objective lens and acknowledge things are pretty well under control.  If anything it’s a tip of the cap to Evers but you’re so obsessed with criticizing the federal gov’t response you refuse to acknowledge any level of success anywhere.  Classic case of DTS

The eye roll is because you're failing to acknowledge that most of Wisconsin just went back to 3/17 like nothing has happened.  This virus feeds on stupid people making even stupider decisions.  And you're failing to acknowledge that there is NO PLAN in most of this state!  Instead of making plans and coming up with protocols we have wasted two god damned months and now that the curve is flattened we just go back in time two months and expect that cases won't explode?   Absolute, abject stupidity.  And who pays for this stupidity?  The at-risk population and health care workers.  And for what?  A Old Fashioned and Fish Fry.

Additionally, if you'd read any of my responses, I have not advocated for a total shut down until we have a vaccine.  That's you or others like you putting words in people's mouths.  I've said we need to have a slow reasonable opening.  Not an on/off switch that we currently have.  I have no idea what DTS is either.

What happens in two weeks when this is back out of control and the population has no choice but to go back to shelter in place for another couple of weeks?

[pacearrow02]

The eye roll is because you're failing to acknowledge that most of Wisconsin just went back to 3/17 like nothing has happened.  This virus feeds on stupid people making even stupider decisions.  And you're failing to acknowledge that there is NO PLAN in most of this state!  Instead of making plans and coming up with protocols we have wasted two god damned months and now that the curve is flattened we just go back in time two months and expect that cases won't explode?   Absolute, abject stupidity.  And who pays for this stupidity?  The at-risk population and health care workers.  And for what?  A Old Fashioned and Fish Fry.

Additionally, if you'd read any of my responses, I have not advocated for a total shut down until we have a vaccine.  That's you or others like you putting words in people's mouths.  I've said we need to have a slow reasonable opening.  Not an on/off switch that we currently have.  I have no idea what DTS is either.

What happens in two weeks when this is back out of control and the population has no choice but to go back to shelter in place for another couple of weeks?

And what happens if that explosion of cases doesn’t happen?  Will you admit you’re wrong and apologize?  We were told by holding the election we’d see an explosion.  Told Georgia would see an explosion after they opened, and Florida, and Texas so on and so on.  None of those dire predictions have held true.  Let’s hope we see similar results here.
 

[Lighthouse 84]

I don't disagree and said earlier in the thread that the Court made a choice between two conflicting laws.  The problem I have was the not issueing the stay, which would have given the executive and legislature time to sort things out.  A stay that both parties requested.  The result has been problematic.  It's going to be hard to put the genie back in the bottle again, and I fear the result will be a patchwork of ineffective policies.

I don't disagree that it's going to be hard to put the genie back.  The issue though is that it's not the Supreme Court's role to do that.  People (not implying you specifically) who think that the Court should fix everything don't understand what the Court's role is.   It's to interpret the laws in the cases that come before it, not to make law (though deciding between two conflicting laws often does that).  If the Court strikes an executive order down, it doesn't always mean that the substance of the executive order was bad.  It's just that the legislature needs to get off their collective dead asses and get it figured out because it's the role of the legislature to enact laws. 

[forgetful]

And what happens if that explosion of cases doesn’t happen?  Will you admit you’re wrong and apologize?  We were told by holding the election we’d see an explosion.  Told Georgia would see an explosion after they opened, and Florida, and Texas so on and so on.  None of those dire predictions have held true.  Let’s hope we see similar results here.

For one, in several of those states we haven't had enough time to see if there is an explosion yet.

Second, making statements are recommending policies based on firm science is what people should do.

The governors, and presidents, essentially saying open up anything are not following any science, they are simply gambling on hope that it doesn't get bad.

Even if wrong, the people following firm science are doing the right thing, and should never apologize.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don't disagree that it's going to be hard to put the genie back.  The issue though is that it's not the Supreme Court's role to do that.  People (not implying you specifically) who think that the Court should fix everything don't understand what the Court's role is.   It's to interpret the laws in the cases that come before it, not to make law (though deciding between two conflicting laws often does that).  If the Court strikes an executive order down, it doesn't always mean that the substance of the executive order was bad.  It's just that the legislature needs to get off their collective dead asses and get it figured out because it's the role of the legislature to enact laws. 

I understand all of that, but Courts routinely issue stays so that parties can sort out the results of their rulings in an orderly fashion.  Especially when it is requested by both parties.

[MUfan12]

Okay, so if I take out the word insane and replace it with stressful or extraordinary would you feel better?  Does it change that the people flooding bars don't actually believe the hero worship that they profess?  When the hospitals are loaded up with covid patients in a couple of weeks and the nurses and doctors are staring death in the face for 'drinks with the bros!' is that okay with you?

The overwhelming majority of establishments in the hardest hit areas remained closed. The populous was not flooding bars. And the small amount of people that went out face certain death, right?

I don't endorse reopening without a plan, and sure as hell wouldn't go out yet. But that level of rhetoric doesn't help anything.

[pacearrow02]

For one, in several of those states we haven't had enough time to see if there is an explosion yet.

Second, making statements are recommending policies based on firm science is what people should do.

The governors, and presidents, essentially saying open up anything are not following any science, they are simply gambling on hope that it doesn't get bad.

Even if wrong, the people following firm science are doing the right thing, and should never apologize.

The majority of the states I mentioned have been open for almost 3 weeks.  How long do we have to wait? 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The majority of the states I mentioned have been open for almost 3 weeks.  How long do we have to wait?

Pace personally I think people are being more cautious and are spending their time outside vs. indoors like earlier this year.  But if you want a timeline I would loosely follow NYC.  Since it was the euro strain that is prevalent, lets assume it started in late jan and wasnt a raging problem until early March (~5-6 wks).  Thats with a lot of density.  So that is what I would watch. 

Again though, we are in a different place.  If people are feeling sick they are more likely to take themself out of circulation and there are some that are being more cautious.  So maybe we can strike a better balance as no one thinks 'shut-down' completely is sustainable. 

[Hards Alumni]

The overwhelming majority of establishments in the hardest hit areas remained closed. The populous was not flooding bars. And the small amount of people that went out face certain death, right?

I don't endorse reopening without a plan, and sure as hell wouldn't go out yet. But that level of rhetoric doesn't help anything.

First off, you're adding a lot to what I said.  I didn't say the people are the bars face certain death.  Obviously, they don't.

There were people at bars the moment that the ban was lifted, and it wasn't even the weekend. The hardest hit areas are going to have people who are asymptomatic mingling openly at bars and restaurants all over the open counties of Wisconsin.  That's how we're going to see spread.  Going to be a beautiful weekend weather wise.  People will be putting their boats in the water, and then hitting up the local watering holes.

And this is precisely the problem.  We need a plan.  If the establishments that are open are only allowed to serve outside that's helpful.  But I think we both know what a typical day/night at a bar in Wisconsin on a gorgeous weekend looks like.

[forgetful]

The majority of the states I mentioned have been open for almost 3 weeks.  How long do we have to wait?

Well the incubation period is up to 14 days. So typically, they are not having serious symptoms until 14 days in. Add in delays in testing and delays in getting results.

So at 3 weeks, we would be seeing the first of those that were newly infected emerge. That would be the first cycle in any exponential growth.

Now separate from that, following "reopening," a lot of people are reluctant to stop quarantining, and a lot of businesses are not opening, but rather waiting a couple weeks to see what happens. That further pushes out the growth in R0. So anything that would be observed would likely be at least 6 weeks out.

[Pakuni]

And what happens if that explosion of cases doesn’t happen?  Will you admit you’re wrong and apologize?  We were told by holding the election we’d see an explosion.  Told Georgia would see an explosion after they opened, and Florida, and Texas so on and so on.  None of those dire predictions have held true.  Let’s hope we see similar results here.

Not sure about an explosion, but cases have risen steadily in Florida and Georgia since they've eased restrictions.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/curve-in-context-heres-what-florida-georgia-covid-19-case-curve-looks-like-as-of-may-14/77-af0dec59-c6ed-478d-8b6b-606c27ab6371

[cheebs09]

Well the incubation period is up to 14 days. So typically, they are not having serious symptoms until 14 days in. Add in delays in testing and delays in getting results.

So at 3 weeks, we would be seeing the first of those that were newly infected emerge. That would be the first cycle in any exponential growth.

Now separate from that, following "reopening," a lot of people are reluctant to stop quarantining, and a lot of businesses are not opening, but rather waiting a couple weeks to see what happens. That further pushes out the growth in R0. So anything that would be observed would likely be at least 6 weeks out.

I thought average was closer to 5-7 days when people start seeing symptoms. It%u2019s possible up to 14, but most experience sooner than that.