Wisconsin

[Hards Alumni]

Well, at least that’s more specific than anything from Evers and his administration.  Thank you for playing WTH Has to Happen For Wisconsin to Reopen?

Why is everyone pretending like they don't know.  A month from now we have better testing (because it can't get worse, can it?), we have... wait for it...

INFORMATION

Also, potentially, it buys us treatment development.  It buys us time to get PPE for our HCWs.

Jesus Christ, this isn't difficult to understand... unless, of course, you're not TRYING to understand or think about it... and you have political motivations.

Hold up.

Wait a minute.

That's exactly what it is.

[mu03eng]

Of course not.  They are trying to do what's been stated from the beginning.  Flattening the curve.

But the curve is flattening.....hospital capacity is up, Hospitalizations and ICU stays are down which was what I thought the goal was all along. Why do we need 6 more weeks of full shutdown, meaning what more will be accomplished? I mean hospitals in the area are starting to furlough workers because they don't have "normal" operations to do and the Covid case load is well below peak right now.

Please note I am not arguing against a shut down nor against continuing it and I certainly agree we need a phased reopening but I am struggling to understand 6 more weeks of shut down untethered to any metrics or goals other than a vague flatten the curve statement.

[Hards Alumni]

But the curve is flattening.....hospital capacity is up, Hospitalizations and ICU stays are down which was what I thought the goal was all along. Why do we need 6 more weeks of full shutdown, meaning what more will be accomplished? I mean hospitals in the area are starting to furlough workers because they don't have "normal" operations to do and the Covid case load is well below peak right now.

Please note I am not arguing against a shut down nor against continuing it and I certainly agree we need a phased reopening but I am struggling to understand 6 more weeks of shut down untethered to any metrics or goals other than a vague flatten the curve statement.

I know I mentioned it pages ago, and I'm not going to hold you to read every post of every page in this monster of a thread... but Evers can always walk back 6 weeks to 2 or 3 weeks.  Imagine if he said 2 or 3 weeks, and we had cases go up (like they are in Brown County) and then told everyone they had to extend shelter in place through June. 

Easier to walk it back than to extend it.

[mu03eng]

Part of it is to give businesses time to get PPE for employees. I know many businesses have had their PPE shipments intercepted by FEMA.

Also, you want open up safely. Will restaurants be at 50% capacity? Only single use serving vessels - so need to get those in house.

Setup plans for workers to remain 6' apart at all times while at work. New sanitizing procedures for offices.

I ultimately agree with all that, then track it and publish the status. I know what metrics are talked about but there is no accountability toward progress. A date is actually meaningless, I agree we need more testing capacity, let's qualify what that need is and track it. By giving dates with vague reasons you are giving a permission structure for these idiots to protest.

[mu03eng]

I know I mentioned it pages ago, and I'm not going to hold you to read every post of every page in this monster of a thread... but Evers can always walk back 6 weeks to 2 or 3 weeks.  Imagine if he said 2 or 3 weeks, and we had cases go up (like they are in Brown County) and then told everyone they had to extend shelter in place through June. 

Easier to walk it back than to extend it.

I don't disagree but governing a virus by dates is dumb

[Hards Alumni]

I ultimately agree with all that, then track it and publish the status. I know what metrics are talked about but there is no accountability toward progress. A date is actually meaningless, I agree we need more testing capacity, let's qualify what that need is and track it. By giving dates with vague reasons you are giving a permission structure for these idiots to protest.

Those idiots are going to protest either way.  They aren't driven by logic or reasoning, just blind hatred for Democrats.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Eng- I’m not in WI but in some form this is true everywhere in the us and the world. 

The speed and veracity of the virus means without a good plan it will soon be out of control again. 

That’s why we should all be demanding our governments show us the plan for testing, tracing and countermeasures to keep the virus (sick people) out of the public domain.

The debate Nationally seems to be about shutdowns and giving away money.   

Boring and pointless IMO. We need to accept this reality and focus on getting us out of the house and back in the world the best as possible.

[Hards Alumni]

I don't disagree but governing a virus by dates is dumb

I sort of feel like you just don't like the date because its far away.  What do you suggest?  Open ended?  That would put a lot more people in the streets.

[HutchwasClutch]

What "metrics" do you want to have offered?  The order that was issued last week specifically talks about preventing a spike in the health care system, and having time to increasing testing contact tracing capacity, etc.

It's stated right in the order.  Which my guess is that people didn't actually read.

Yeah, I did the read the order and the part you provided synopsis about. 

Metrics are necessary or else it just looks like a government dictating from on high. Which is what it is.

Metrics like you offered would be a decent start.  Metrics about testing, decreased cases over what period of time, availability of PPE for people on the front lines of treatment - what is cited in the new order- that’s what administration needs to do. The list could and should go well beyond these examples too. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yeah, I did the read the order and the part you provided synopsis about. 

Metrics are necessary or else it just looks like a government dictating from on high. Which is what it is.

Metrics like you offered would be a decent start.  Metrics about testing, decreased cases over what period of time, availability of PPE for people on the front lines of treatment - what is cited in the new order- that’s what administration needs to do. The list could and should go well beyond these examples too. 

Yes.  I am sure all of the people who are complaining and protesting, would be just fine if they provided "metrics."

And yes, sometimes government dictates from on-high.  That's life in a pandemic.  I mean, we are talking about a couple of months here.  Let's not act as though we are dealing with some sort of oppressive regime here. 

[mu03eng]

I sort of feel like you just don't like the date because its far away.  What do you suggest?  Open ended?  That would put a lot more people in the streets.

-how many daily tests need to be available in a phase 1 reopening, phase n reopening?
-what is the target hospital utilization rate and what rate of change represents an indicator of reopening?
-What level of PPE capacity at hospitals is sufficient for phased reopening?
-What level of PPE availability at a work place is sufficient for reopening?
-What infrastructure needs to be minimally in place to allow phased reopening?

[Hards Alumni]

-how many daily tests need to be available in a phase 1 reopening, phase n reopening?
-what is the target hospital utilization rate and what rate of change represents an indicator of reopening?
-What level of PPE capacity at hospitals is sufficient for phased reopening?
-What level of PPE availability at a work place is sufficient for reopening?
-What infrastructure needs to be minimally in place to allow phased reopening?

Got ya.  You'd rather base this on metrics rather than time.  I don't disagree with you.  I think you just have a lot more faith in the intelligence of people than I do.

You understand this stuff, but the average person won't keep track of it.  That's why using a date that all of those things are projected to be accomplished by is better.  And if you can accomplish all of the goals you've outlined before that date and we can open up 'early' then people will be happier.  If a date is set that is too early, and the goals aren't met and the line gets moved into June people will lose their god damn minds.

We feel the same, I just don't trust the average person to understand as much as you... I think.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

-how many daily tests need to be available in a phase 1 reopening, phase n reopening?
-what is the target hospital utilization rate and what rate of change represents an indicator of reopening?
-What level of PPE capacity at hospitals is sufficient for phased reopening?
-What level of PPE availability at a work place is sufficient for reopening?
-What infrastructure needs to be minimally in place to allow phased reopening?

This is what people should be protesting about (six feet apart of course)

[HutchwasClutch]

Yes.  I am sure all of the people who are complaining and protesting, would be just fine if they provided "metrics."

And yes, sometimes government dictates from on-high.  That's life in a pandemic.  I mean, we are talking about a couple of months here.  Let's not act as though we are dealing with some sort of oppressive regime here.

You so blithely dismiss a “couple of months”. Tell that to business owners.  Tell that to the unemployed.  A “couple of months” could and does for many mean the difference of staying on your feet vs ruin.

You’re right about government intervention being necessary from the executive branch in some situations. The public took the initial order and it was followed with almost zero protesting or civil disobedience. The government does work for us, this is how our nation was setup, and if they want to continue measures that directly  affect people’s livelihoods, the public deserves answers what needs to happen without vague platitudes. 

[mu03eng]

Got ya.  You'd rather base this on metrics rather than time.  I don't disagree with you.  I think you just have a lot more faith in the intelligence of people than I do.

You understand this stuff, but the average person won't keep track of it.  That's why using a date that all of those things are projected to be accomplished by is better.  And if you can accomplish all of the goals you've outlined before that date and we can open up 'early' then people will be happier.  If a date is set that is too early, and the goals aren't met and the line gets moved into June people will lose their god damn minds.

We feel the same, I just don't trust the average person to understand as much as you... I think.

If we can't trust people to understand basic metrics we are too dumb to live anyway. You can have a target date "we think we'll hit the target metrics on X date" and I'm sure that is what's going on in the background but you HAVE to show your work here or you're going to lose the public and if you lose the public they are going to start defying the orders which screws us all.

[Pakuni]

You so blithely dismiss a “couple of months”. Tell that to business owners.  Tell that to the unemployed.  A “couple of months” could and does for many mean the difference of staying on your feet vs ruin.

It could also mean the difference between being healhy or severely ill/dead. The economic impact sucks, and I in no way mean to minimize that, but between stimulus checks, low- to no interest small biz loans and enhanced unemployment benefits, there's at least some mitigation for that.
Nothing is going to mitigate being dead.

[mu03eng]

Yes.  I am sure all of the people who are complaining and protesting, would be just fine if they provided "metrics."

And yes, sometimes government dictates from on-high.  That's life in a pandemic.  I mean, we are talking about a couple of months here.  Let's not act as though we are dealing with some sort of oppressive regime here.

Couple of months can mean the difference between someone staying in the middle class and falling into poverty....the economic impact of this can set families back a generation.

[mu03eng]

It could also mean the difference between being healhy or severely ill/dead. The economic impact sucks, and I in no way mean to minimize that, but between stimulus checks, low- to no interest small biz loans and enhanced unemployment benefits, there's at least some mitigation for that.
Nothing is going to mitigate being dead.

Is the bar zero Covid-19 deaths? How many deaths is too many in balance with the potential on the other side that lives are ruined, peoples mental health is significantly impacted, that families fall into poverty? All for the shut down and a continued measured approach but if we're making decisions based on death outcomes give me a number that is "acceptable" because zero isn't the answer

[Hards Alumni]

If we can't trust people to understand basic metrics we are too dumb to live anyway. You can have a target date "we think we'll hit the target metrics on X date" and I'm sure that is what's going on in the background but you HAVE to show your work here or you're going to lose the public and if you lose the public they are going to start defying the orders which screws us all.

You obviously haven't met some of my very blue collar employees.  They routinely misunderstand things they are told, and have a lot of their own crackpot theories.  And they're not rational.

I'm guessing you don't do nearly as much interaction with the average Joe as I do on a daily basis.  They're their own worst enemies most often than not.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You so blithely dismiss a “couple of months”. Tell that to business owners.  Tell that to the unemployed.  A “couple of months” could and does for many mean the difference of staying on your feet vs ruin.

You’re right about government intervention being necessary from the executive branch in some situations. The public took the initial order and it was followed with almost zero protesting or civil disobedience. The government does work for us, this is how our nation was setup, and if they want to continue measures that directly  affect people’s livelihoods, the public deserves answers what needs to happen without vague platitudes. 

I have repeatedly said that we needed to provide a more comprehensive relief package for small business owners and those who are unemployed.  A couple months should be able to be weathered.  If it can't, the problem is with our safety net itself, and perhaps an economy that isn't all that substantitive to begin with. 

And sorry, but people have been given answers.  Maybe not specific objective metrics, but certainly reasoning as to WHY we are doing this.  But we have a subset of our population is too ignorant to understand it.  Or too conditioned to see conspiracy where none exists.

[Hards Alumni]

I have repeatedly said that we needed to provide a more comprehensive relief package for small business owners and those who are unemployed.  A couple months should be able to be weathered.  If it can't, the problem is with our safety net itself, and perhaps an economy that isn't all that substantitive to begin with. 

And sorry, but people have been given answers.  Maybe not specific objective metrics, but certainly reasoning as to WHY we are doing this.  But we have a subset of our population is too ignorant to understand it.  Or too conditioned to see conspiracy where none exists.

+1

[mu03eng]

You obviously haven't met some of my very blue collar employees.  They routinely misunderstand things they are told, and have a lot of their own crackpot theories.  And they're not rational.

I'm guessing you don't do nearly as much interaction with the average Joe as I do on a daily basis.  They're their own worst enemies most often than not.

So they'll listen to random dates but not metrics, got it. So why is it governments job to save people from themselves?

[forgetful]

-how many daily tests need to be available in a phase 1 reopening, phase n reopening?
-what is the target hospital utilization rate and what rate of change represents an indicator of reopening?
-What level of PPE capacity at hospitals is sufficient for phased reopening?
-What level of PPE availability at a work place is sufficient for reopening?
-What infrastructure needs to be minimally in place to allow phased reopening?

mu03eng, I agree with you. We should be publicly stating metrics, and explaining what they mean. Cuomo and Merkel have done well with this. There is a problem with doing so though, and simply looking at this board should point them out. Rational metrics are not driving peoples actions, politics are.

There are largely two big metrics governing action/policy. R0 and the availability to test/track cases. The latter is important, because R0 is inaccurate without it. Now where do you place those metrics?

R0 is an easy one, in theory, we know how rapidly virus will spread based on R0. But that is dependent on models, which are being attacked politically. It is also dependent on reporting, which, politically there is a movement stating that certain parties are intentionally inflating numbers to cause harm to influence the election. The argument that these are no more accurate than a weather forecast.

The corollary to R0, is that we know it will go back up when we relax social distancing. The actual plans, are we shut everything back down above a certain threshold. The public/economy is not going to react well to that. In my opinion, they need to know. But politically, no one wants to go there.

Testing/tracking is hard. The bottom line is, we are never going to be able to test/track at the level needed. We are just going to eventually call it good enough. So, you really have to just make up a possible number there, and then lie to the people. That number, since it will be completely arbitrary (whatever may be attainable), will be vehemently attacked as being...well, arbitrary, and chosen to cause harm to influence the election.

For people like you and I, these numbers provide a lot of benefit, so I want to see them. But, for the bulk population, they are secondary to politics. And politics are fierce and dividing the nation right now.

[Hards Alumni]

So they'll listen to random dates but not metrics, got it. So why is it governments job to save people from themselves?

I think at this point, you just want to argue.  You already know the answer to this question.

[injuryBug]

There should be a weekly update letting us know how things are going with testing, cases and such.  Evers needs to start holding these so each week the local news can let everyone know where we stand.  I also want the metrics it is not good enough to come on once enough and give the orders that we are closed for this long see you next month.