Quit Whining

[Let's Go Warriors]

I am all for stability in coaching hires, but Wardle hadn't really done enough to be under consideration at that point.

Probably.  But what has Wojo ever done as a HC?  Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time?  If that whats the plan seems to be?  Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.

Not saying thats exactly what I would have done.  Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Probably.  But what has Wojo ever done as a HC?  Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time?  If that whats the plan seems to be?  Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.

Not saying thats exactly what I would have done.  Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.

We could have hired Wardle but his teams tend to sh*t the bed.

[mu03eng]

As usual, mu03, you're too damn reasonable. How am I supposed to get a perfectly good rant going?

In complaining about those on the extreme, I probably sound like somebody on the extreme. Something for me to work on.

I also fall into the category of "I'm passionate about Marquette hoops and I very much want to win, but it's still only basketball and not real life."

Go Warriors!

As soon as I hit post, I did think to myself "there you go again ruining a perfectly good MU82 rant" so like Skynet I'm self aware.

Having said that, this post brings up a very relevant meta discussion around Scoop and Brew's original point. Is Scoop (or internet sports forums) a place for rational, reasonable discussion? Is that the point of message boards? We could all have rational, reasonable discussions in real life so do we need to recreate that on the internet? I wonder if I spend too much time trying to be balanced on the internet and just need to let my inner irrational run around.

[mu03eng]

Probably.  But what has Wojo ever done as a HC?  Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time?  If that whats the plan seems to be?  Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.

Not saying thats exactly what I would have done.  Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.

Wojo was a much better known quantity than Wardle then and now. What's the point of longer term guarantees if you have no idea if you are going to have a turd or diamond for 15 years? Besides if Wardle is that loyal to MU, go get him once Wojo leaves for Duke after he's proven himself more. If he's going to coach here for 15 years he'll be willing to come later than sooner.

[wrmrkt]

scout is my new favorite Scooper.

I'll second that.

[Let's Go Warriors]

Wojo was a much better known quantity than Wardle then and now. What's the point of longer term guarantees if you have no idea if you are going to have a turd or diamond for 15 years? Besides if Wardle is that loyal to MU, go get him once Wojo leaves for Duke after he's proven himself more. If he's going to coach here for 15 years he'll be willing to come later than sooner.

Bingo

And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well.  Not much of a long term plan now is it?

[MarquetteDano]

MU Scoop has been online for a decade, and three things are certain:  We haven't won ten national championships in that stretch, there are people who complain, and people who complain about the complainers.

Don't care about the complainers.  I care about the attacks on 20 year old student athletes.  If I knew the poster was a young twenty something themself I could let it slide but we know more than a few are old enough to know better.

[mu03eng]

Bingo

And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well.  Not much of a long term plan now is it?

Umm, who's backing out of a Wojo class?

[ATWizJr]

Just started following Marquette Basketball.  Can't understand uproar over this years team.  You have some nice players that are fun to watch.  If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse.  The Big East is extremely competitive this year.  You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now.  Great win over Gtown.  Hang in there.  having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players.  They are all nice players.  Enjoy them.

Well, I have to stipulate that I've been spoiled.  As an elder citizen I had the good fortune to experience the McGuire years.  So my expectations are obviously different from yours.  I understand the need to develop the program, recruit better players and the time that it takes.  But I'm getting damned tired of being told that we are going to be better in the future while we boot games we should have won (Seton Hall).  If I wanted to wait 50 years or more for us to be an elite team I'd have been a cubs fan.

[muguru]

Who said we can't have high expectations?

Not at all true.

What, so everyone should always be winners and always get a trophy? Give me a break. And how will your anger, frustration, and crying after a loss change anything?

Attendance is down across college basketball and sports in general.

If our program added two wins per year starting now, that would make us a perennial 30-win team in 5 years. Is that small-time thinking?

Okay, here's where you are really off base. Marquette is, first and foremost, a university. Its responsibility is to grow and shape young minds, to educate, and to turn out quality individuals. This is done by embracing the Cura Personalis mindset. I think we all want MU to win at the highest level, I think we all want to see our program at the level of Villanova, but if you sacrifice your ideals to get there, what's it really worth? Cheating to win, taking the low road, there's more to life than W's and L's. I don't want a program that gets there like that.

And again, no one is saying this. You're just making crap up. We all want to win. Some of us also care that we do in a way that makes us proud of Marquette as a University, not just as an athletic team.

I have addressed that numerous times. Would you be happy to have Villanova's program? Would that put a smile on your face and a boner in your pants? To be defending national champs, ranked in the top-5, and whooping darn near everyone you play? It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title. Yes, you can quick fix your way to the NCAAs, but I don't think anyone at Marquette wants to build a program that has the goal of getting to the tournament. They want a program that can sustain itself over the years and have the potential to make deep NCAA runs and challenge for titles. As of yesterday, no teams in the top-10 had a coach with fewer than 4 years current job tenure (Alford at UCLA, but has 22 years experience).

Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.

We have a top-20 in the country offense, yet he isn't playing to his player's strengths? This year's offense has a higher efficiency rating than Buzz ever had here. So your claim is completely, patently false. The defense isn't there, but our best defenders are freshmen and sophomores, and defense corrolates with length, which we have none of (but will have next year).

At the end of the day, the simple truth is that you are going to cry and whine every time we lose like it's your last night on earth. Anything less than a national title every single year will be a complete, abject failure. It's a sad state of affairs, and completely bewilders me that you are over the age of 4 with that type of mindset. Losing is a part of life. It builds character. And it makes the winning all the more sweet. Hell, even Villanova lost this past week.

Right now, we are 10-5 (so we're winning more than losing) after a 20-win season. Grow up. Grow a pair. Of course, you won't. You'll just wait until the next loss and toss all your toys out of the crib just like you do every time we lose.

 Okay first of all, I am not an alum,  I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.

 That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.

 Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.

 Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.

[fjm]

Bingo

And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well.  Not much of a long term plan now is it?

Oh right. Well he kept Cohen cause he had to... but you would have played that season without Cohen probably right?

And traci left because he was a frosh starter and now he was the 3rd option. But if it was you or your son you'd say "I love you Mini let's go warrior... but you're 3rd best behind a frosh and a junior. Sit the bench and you might start again in Europe." (I doubt that).
 
OR maybe if you were Wojo, since you seem to know a lot about recruiting and why players leave... you would have told Markus Howard "sorry dude... we have traci Carter who is a great guy, sooo he's gonna start until he graduates cause we don't want him to transfer."

You nailed it buddy. You certainly understand a young
Mindset. I bet you also stay at a job when they hire people younger than you and pay them better for the same position when there are plenty of other options for you.

[Let's Go Warriors]

Umm, who's backing out of a Wojo class?

Im talking the scenario you laid out above.  Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave.  Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.

[fjm]

Im talking the scenario you laid out above.  Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave.  Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.

Oh. I think I missed that point.

[mu03eng]

Im talking the scenario you laid out above.  Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave.  Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.

Yes, but if Wojo leaves because he's been successful we aren't rebuilding nearly as much as Wojo had to rebuild after Buzz. Post-Buzz was a pretty unique transition for a number of reasons that have been documented. If Wojo is leaving because he's been successful we are "rebuilding" from a much more stable place.

If you are assuming that we're rebuilding from a bad place because Wojo is bad....well that just means we lost the bet that Wojo would be a better coach than Wardle. Quite frankly, I will take that bet every time based on their respective bodies of work.

[Let's Go Warriors]

Yes, but if Wojo leaves because he's been successful we aren't rebuilding nearly as much as Wojo had to rebuild after Buzz. Post-Buzz was a pretty unique transition for a number of reasons that have been documented. If Wojo is leaving because he's been successful we are "rebuilding" from a much more stable place.

If you are assuming that we're rebuilding from a bad place because Wojo is bad....well that just means we lost the bet that Wojo would be a better coach than Wardle. Quite frankly, I will take that bet every time based on their respective bodies of work.

Unfortunately you have no way to quantify that:

How many players transfer because Wojo leaves?
How many recruits back out?
How many if any coaches stay?
How many seniors are on the roster that year?

Im not saying you are "wrong".  Im just saying those of you who are pointing to this long term plan really have nothing to base that on at this point. 

Im interested in Wojos HC track record that I seem to be missing other than MU?

[mu03eng]

Unfortunately you have no way to quantify that:

How many players transfer because Wojo leaves?
How many recruits back out?
How many if any coaches stay?
How many seniors are on the roster that year?

Im not saying you are "wrong".  Im just saying those of you who are pointing to this long term plan really have nothing to base that on at this point. 

Im interested in Wojos HC track record that I seem to be missing other than MU?

So your argument against the Wojo was a better option than Wardle is that we can't know what condition Wojo leaves the program in...and we can "know" what condition Wardle would have the program in at this point????

None of this is "knowable" which is why we argue about it on a message board. I'm simply taking a position based on probability of where Wojo would have the program versus Wardle would have the program...that probability is based on their existing work product.

And yes Wojo didn't have direct HC experience as compared to Wardle but Wojo also had a lot more experience at multiple levels including the international level that Wardle doesn't. You're right, Wardle had the edge on Wojo at the executive role of being a HC, but Wojo (IMO) more than made up for that with experience at all levels of basketball and with far more extensive recruiting network than Wardle.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Okay first of all, I am not an alum,  I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.

 That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.

 Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.

 Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.

Seconded.  You are so very right.

[Marcus92]

First things first. Let's get MU basketball back to where it should be: competing for Big East championships, earning NCAA bids, and giving fans lots to cheer for in March.

How long Wojo might stay assuming that happens, or what the consequences could be for the program, is pure conjecture at this point.

[Let's Go Warriors]

First things first. Let's get MU basketball back to where it should be: competing for Big East championships, earning NCAA bids, and giving fans lots to cheer for in March.

How long Wojo might stay assuming that happens, or what the consequences could be for the program, is pure conjecture at this point.

I completely agree.  But lets also not pretend there is some grand 15 year plan in the works.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.

You guarantee?  What makes you think your situation is so special? 

[Marcus92]

I completely agree.  But lets also not pretend there is some grand 15 year plan in the works.

Marquette hasn't had a coach stay for 15+ years since Bill Chandler (1930-51). McGuire was only here for 13 seasons. In recent history, Crean had the longest tenure at 9 years. Buzz left after his sixth season.

I'd love to see Wojo establish a 15-year record of success. But this is only Year 3. Let's worry about the rest of the 2016-17 conference schedule and Big East tournament first.

[GGGG]

We could have hired Wardle but his teams tend to sh*t the bed.

Well...I laughed.

[GGGG]

Okay first of all, I am not an alum,  I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.

 That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.

 Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.

 Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.

If I close my eyes, I can almost picture this post being read by Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men."

[mu03eng]

Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.

 Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.

Well gee, what if we finally get a national championship caliber team in 2019 and SMOD shows up keeping us from enjoying it???

If you can find me a guaranteed option that returns us to winning all the time and being better than Wisconsin continuously I'll take it. Otherwise I'm going to ride with Wojo until he proves he isn't the answer. Because the answer definitely isn't pushing the reset again after 3 years just when it looks like we can return to relevancy if not this year than next year.

[GGGG]

Poll:

Does Marquette win another national championship before the sun enlarges into a red giant and consumes the earth?

I say yes.