MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: brewcity77 on January 20, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
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It's not much of a surprise, but numerous Twitter sources including Kevon Looney himself reported that after watching the Hamilton game last night, Coach K offered Looney a scholarship to Duke. I think we all knew the big boys would get in there, but now it's officially started. His list had included MU, Georgetown, and Tennessee as the biggest names. I'm sure this will be the first of many blue-bloods to offer in the coming months.
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Welp....this is going to get harder and harder. Hopefully we are in a good place with Paul White.
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Besides White and Looney, are there any big names we're mentioned with right now? It seems as though this year has been much quieter than last year. Scout lists us with Jaquan Lyle, Joel Berry and Ahmed Hill, are any of those realistic?
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I Certainly hope Diamond.
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Looney and Stone are tough gets. Not saying impossible but not going to be easy in either case.
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Any chance Stone reclassifies to '14? That's been a trend among elite prospects recently.
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Would be really super geeked if we got either/both White or Stone, Stone in particular, since he could be an EPIC player for MU.
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I have a feeling Looney doesnt come to MU, hes gonna go to Duke I bet...while its nice to think positive, how do you pass that up??
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Disagree.
There are more advantages for Looney to play for Marquette.
1. His family and friends can watch him play.
2. He joins other Milwaukee top athletes at Marquette and can lead MU to a national championship.
3. The timing is perfect for him to get a lot of playing time at Marquette as a much needed "big."
4. At Duke, Looney will be one of many.
5. He will be away from home and his family and friends.
6. It's been said before that once you go far away to college you may not return to live in our home town.
Looney is wanted by Marquette.
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When you consider what it is Kevon wants to do and what his ultimate goals are, the answer becomes a lot clearer, in spite of fan's perspective and allegiance to MU.
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I'm not 100% sure but it's my impression that if MU uses the word "big" when talking to Looney, they will not get him.
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Disagree.
There are more advantages for Looney to play for Marquette.
1. His family and friends can watch him play.
2. He joins other Milwaukee top athletes at Marquette and can lead MU to a national championship.
3. The timing is perfect for him to get a lot of playing time at Marquette as a much needed "big."
4. At Duke, Looney will be one of many.
5. He will be away from home and his family and friends.
6. It's been said before that once you go far away to college you may not return to live in our home town.
Looney is wanted by Marquette.
And he's not wanted by Duke? And he's not a "big." He's a wing.
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I'm not 100% sure but it's my impression that if MU uses the word "big" when talking to Looney, they will not get him.
No doubt he be the 4 at marquette but that means he pretty much a jamil Wilson where he is a perimeter guy mainly
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2. He joins other Milwaukee top athletes at Marquette and can lead MU to a national championship.
3. The timing is perfect for him to get a lot of playing time at Marquette as a much needed "big."
4. At Duke, Looney will be one of many.
5. He will be away from home and his family and friends.
6. It's been said before that once you go far away to college you may not return to live in our home town.
Looney is wanted by Marquette.
2. Wherever he goes will likely have top athletes, and he will likely have better championship odds elsewhere.
3. He'll get PT wherever he goes and if we recruit him as a big we won't get him. He will be a 2/3, not a 4/5.
4. Disagree. Maybe that would be the case at Kentucky, but top HS talent like Austin Rivers has shown you can stand out early at Duke. And while they bring in elite guys, it's unlikely K would have "many" top-10 talents like Looney.
5. Don't think that matters to him. At least not as much as we might like.
6. So? He'll likely go to the NBA and have to move anyway, why not do it a year sooner?
Every program in the country wants Looney. UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, they'll all have a spot for him if he wants it. I truly hope he comes here, but I'm not getting my hopes up. This is a recruiting battle I expect to lose. Honestly, I think we had a better shot at Tokoto than we do at Looney.
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When you consider what it is Kevon wants to do and what his ultimate goals are, the answer becomes a lot clearer, in spite of fan's perspective and allegiance to MU.
+10000
He ain't coming, but the kool-aid is very strong with some. Always nice to dream, but he ain't coming.
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+10000
He ain't coming, but the kool-aid is very strong with some. Always nice to dream, but he ain't coming.
Why not? Or, what have you read to suggest this?
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Why not? Or, what have you read to suggest this?
I trust 4ever, I can take a hint and I can read between the lines on what this kid wants to do. MU is a fine school with a fine basketball program. Looney is a rare player that can do better. That might irk some, but that's the way I see it. He has big life goals that a more elite school and program can fulfill for him. If he is offered those opportunities, he is a fool not to take them.
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In this situation, the hometown scenerio actually will work against MU. Some kids want to stay close and reap all the benefits thereof. Others, long to experience what it's like elsewhere. Remember, Kevon is the baby of his family, but has been exposed to so much already. He projects as a "Kevin Durant" type player. If his potential is realized, he'll be takin' his talents to the Association. I, for one, am not bettin' against him.
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Why not? Or, what have you read to suggest this?
Suffice it to say, I'd be floored if he did. And I mean floored.
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I'm with 4ever and CBB. Everything I've heard points away from Marquette. Not to say we aren't in it and trying to get him, but the more offers like this come in, the further back we get pushed. I think we're basically the safety school. But generally kids with a 1600 SAT and every extracurricular under the sun don't need a safety school, and that's the basketball equivalent of what Kevon is.
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I'm with 4ever and CBB. Everything I've heard points away from Marquette. Not to say we aren't in it and trying to get him, but the more offers like this come in, the further back we get pushed. I think we're basically the safety school. But generally kids with a 1600 SAT and every extracurricular under the sun don't need a safety school, and that's the basketball equivalent of what Kevon is.
Couple that with the goal over the last few years of being offered by the blue bloods=game, set, match.
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Besides White and Looney, are there any big names we're mentioned with right now? It seems as though this year has been much quieter than last year. Scout lists us with Jaquan Lyle, Joel Berry and Ahmed Hill, are any of those realistic?
As far as Berry I find it relatively unrealistic. I have no insider information to base this opinion off of but I do know the Orlando area well. Berry changed schools from Apopka to Highland (a VERY nice private school that had a winning tradition) his sophomore year. He is someone who is obviously very concerned about winning and will probably look long and hard at those top flight programs. Also being from FL I find it very hard to believe that he will ever make it out of the state. Billy Donovan has a very strong hold on the top players from the state and most are attracted to the warm weather and up tempo style of play that is offered at UF. I would love to see Berry in an MU uniform more than anyone but I doubt it will happen.
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Disagree.
There are more advantages for Looney to play for Marquette.
Even if we all concede this point, which is debatable at best, you are forgetting that the advantages of having Duke on your chest and Coach K on the sideline significantly outweigh the advantages you put in MU's column.
At least that's the perspective of pretty much any objective observer or blue chip recruit.
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I, for one, would offer up my imaginary girlfriend for an offer to hoop for Duke, UK, UNC, or Kansas. You only go around once in life, aina?
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Kevon isn't going to come to MU. Diamond will have MU until the end in his choices.
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Kevon isn't going to come to MU. Diamond will have MU until the end in his choices.
Is he going to UW?
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Surprised at the lack of confidence and loyalty by some on this board. Marquette has been a premier college basketball mecca for a long, long time. Kevin would be a welcome part of that strong tradition. MU has a long list of great players. Not sure how Kevon would measure up to the long list of elite Marquette players. But, please don't under estimate Marquette!
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I, for one, would offer up my imaginary girlfriend for an offer to hoop for Duke, UK, UNC, or Kansas. You only go around once in life, aina?
Look at Tokoto. He went to the vaunted UNC. Reality is he is 10th in minutes on an unranked team. Unless McAdoo and Bullock come out early, its going to be hard to break in. Further Andrew Wiggins, the nation's #1 ranked SF is considering UNC.
Basketball-wise, would he have been better off at UW or MU?
So, it is nice to get an offer from a true blue-blood. But unless you are a truly special player, a player that will take time away from an established all-conference college player, think twice about attending.
Looney is early in his junior year and is ranked about the same place that Jamil Wilson was ranked the beginning of his junior year (end of Sophomore year).
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Lets not be naive.
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Surprised at the lack of confidence and loyalty by some on this board. Marquette has been a premier college basketball mecca for a long, long time. Kevin would be a welcome part of that strong tradition. MU has a long list of great players. Not sure how Kevon would measure up to the long list of elite Marquette players. But, please don't under estimate Marquette!
thats not what loyalty means.
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Look at Tokoto. He went to the vaunted UNC. Reality is he is 10th in minutes on an unranked team. Unless McAdoo and Bullock come out early, its going to be hard to break in. Further Andrew Wiggins, the nation's #1 ranked SF is considering UNC.
Basketball-wise, would he have been better off at UW or MU?
So, it is nice to get an offer from a true blue-blood. But unless you are a truly special player, a player that will take time away from an established all-conference college player, think twice about attending.
Looney is early in his junior year and is ranked about the same place that Jamil Wilson was ranked the beginning of his junior year (end of Sophomore year).
The final chapter has yet to written on Tokoto, and Looney, for that matter. Would you offer up the same logic with Steve Taylor. Maybe he shoulda gone to DePaul?
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If you could pick between getting Kevon or Stone who would it be?
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Also, it's not a logical debate about one should do. Rather, it centers around what the student athlete wants to do.
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I trust 4ever, I can take a hint and I can read between the lines on what this kid wants to do. MU is a fine school with a fine basketball program. Looney is a rare player that can do better. That might irk some, but that's the way I see it. He has big life goals that a more elite school and program can fulfill for him. If he is offered those opportunities, he is a fool not to take them.
I can certainly believe that it is very unlikely that he will go to MU. And when you say he has big life goals that include an elite school (e.g., Duke), that makes sense, and I certainly respect that from a school stand point.
What I'm not sure that I understand entirely is why everyone believes that Kentucky and Duke necessarily prepare you better for the NBA. Is it because you get to practice every day against future NBA players? Because when you look at NBA all-star talent level players, and see the non foreign non straight from HS guys like Wade (hmmm....), Durant, Griffin, Hardin, Love, CAnthony, most of them are from the big 4 (Duke, UNC, KY, KS).
And then when you look to JButler, Wes and Jae, and the opportunities they have had, I really begin to wonder.
But what is it, other than perception, that leads one to believe that these elite bBall players will have a better chance to make the NBA coming from the big 4? I think it must be very hard to measure because it is somewhat self-selecting-- the best HS players Dom go to those schools, so those schools get more players into the league. But won't talent win out in the end no matter where from?
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If you could pick between getting Kevon or Stone who would it be?
This team desparately needs a post presence. Remember, it's a big man's game. Don't know the fabric of Stone. Might be impeccable. Just am unfamiliar. Can tell you Kevon has not only has what it takes, but also support of a strong family structure. I know what you're getting with him. For that reason, I'd druder have Looney, particularly in Buzz' switchable offense. Good question, though.
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Surprised at the lack of confidence and loyalty by some on this board. Marquette has been a premier college basketball mecca for a long, long time. Kevin would be a welcome part of that strong tradition. MU has a long list of great players. Not sure how Kevon would measure up to the long list of elite Marquette players. But, please don't under estimate Marquette!
No one is debating that Kevon would be welcome, or that MU has a strong tradition. It isn't any sort of lack of loyalty to suggest that he likely will not be coming here.
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Also, it's not a logical debate about one should do. Rather, it centers around what the student athlete wants to do.
I agree it is about what Kevon wants to do. But is he going to pick Duke (or another blue-blood) because he needs the validation that he is a great player. Or is he going to a blue-blood because he truly believes he will start and lead them deep in the tourney.
My impression (which could be wrong) is Parker is going to Duke because he expects to starts and be their leading score my mid-season and Duke will put enough good players around him to go deep in the tourney.
By contrast, my impression (again it could be wrong) is Tokoto was impressed Roy selected him but did not have the same aspiration as Parker. This is why he needed to make his decision live on TV, he needed the validation that he is good. Duane Wilson, Denote Burton did not do this.
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Look at Tokoto. He went to the vaunted UNC. Reality is he is 10th in minutes on an unranked team. Unless McAdoo and Bullock come out early, its going to be hard to break in. Further Andrew Wiggins, the nation's #1 ranked SF is considering UNC.
Basketball-wise, would he have been better off at UW or MU?
Who knows? You really can't answer that question halfway through a freshman year.
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Coach, style of play, and teammates will play very significant roles in Looney's college choice. That's a fact.
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Who knows? You really can't answer that question halfway through a freshman year.
True, but how many guys that are 10th in minutes that are playing behind tons of underclassman and have the #1 player at their position about to commit break through?
I'm talking about at blue-bloods like UNC, not MU.
My answer is "not many" which is why these schools have tons of transfers. When players see they are only going to be reserves, they transfer. This is why I keep suggesting he might call Buzz (or Bo) later this spring about moving.
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Who knows? You really can't answer that question halfway through a freshman year.
Agreed. I am in NC, and here a lot of positive comments about Tokoto. I would be surprised if he doesn't get a chance at significant minutes / starting spot in the next few years.
BTW AnotherMU84, McAdoo leaving early is a near certainty.
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Surprised at the lack of confidence and loyalty by some on this board. Marquette has been a premier college basketball mecca for a long, long time. Kevin would be a welcome part of that strong tradition. MU has a long list of great players. Not sure how Kevon would measure up to the long list of elite Marquette players. But, please don't under estimate Marquette!
First, it's Kevon, not Kevin. Second, MU was elite in the 1970's and has been very good in the 2000's...but not even the best in the state in the 2000's so we need to make sure we not put the blinders on.
I hope Buzz continues to go after him, which I expect nothing less. MU is a fine school with a top 25 program. There are some people, however, that are elite people and should go to top 5 programs only. I would be shocked if he comes to MU and that is not a dis on MU, it's just the reality of the situation and the opportunity.
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Coach, style of play, and teammates will play very significant roles in Looney's college choice. That's a fact.
Yes, and with:
Sophomores
Duane Wilson
Denote Burton
Juniors
Steve Taylor
Jamal Ferguson
Seniors
Juan Anderson
Jaymeel McKay
Derrick Wilson
Todd Mayo
Add Looney and another decent player, and it is not a stretch that this is an elite 8 team. Add Stone the next year and it is a FF team.
Looney can do this 15 minutes from home. That has to get him thinking.
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Everyone should just chillax until after the current high school season. Kevon will be narrowing his offers and formulating a list this Spring.
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I can certainly believe that it is very unlikely that he will go to MU. And when you say he has big life goals that include an elite school (e.g., Duke), that makes sense, and I certainly respect that from a school stand point.
What I'm not sure that I understand entirely is why everyone believes that Kentucky and Duke necessarily prepare you better for the NBA. Is it because you get to practice every day against future NBA players? Because when you look at NBA all-star talent level players, and see the non foreign non straight from HS guys like Wade (hmmm....), Durant, Griffin, Hardin, Love, CAnthony, most of them are from the big 4 (Duke, UNC, KY, KS).
And then when you look to JButler, Wes and Jae, and the opportunities they have had, I really begin to wonder.
But what is it, other than perception, that leads one to believe that these elite bBall players will have a better chance to make the NBA coming from the big 4? I think it must be very hard to measure because it is somewhat self-selecting-- the best HS players Dom go to those schools, so those schools get more players into the league. But won't talent win out in the end no matter where from?
Well, look at the numbers
Duke has 18 kinds currently in the NBA. Kentucky has 21. Marquette has 5.
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Yes, and with:
Sophomores
Duane Wilson
Denote Burton
Juniors
Steve Taylor
Jamal Ferguson
Seniors
Juan Anderson
Jaymeel McKay
Derrick Wilson
Todd Mayo
Add Looney and another decent player, and it is not a stretch that this is an elite 8 team. Add Stone the next year and it is a FF team.
Looney can do this 15 minutes from home. That has to get him thinking.
You and I both know this. But, you're missing the thesis sentence. Kevon, the last I knew about it, point blank, has no issues going out of town for college. In fact, his family encourages it.
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True, but how many guys that are 10th in minutes that are playing behind tons of underclassman and have the #1 player at their position about to commit break through?
I'm talking about at blue-bloods like UNC, not MU.
My answer is "not many" which is why these schools have tons of transfers. When players see they are only going to be reserves, they transfer. This is why I keep suggesting he might call Buzz (or Bo) later this spring about moving.
I dont think the blue bloods have a high amount of transfers, actually. In fact, they may have less than MU....
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I trust 4ever, like I said....except when he says college basketball is a big man's game. ;D It's a guard's game, always has been and always will be. UNC can't get it done the last few years because their guards have been crap. Same for UCLA. Gots to have the smalls with balls.
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Well, look at the numbers
Duke has 18 kinds currently in the NBA. Kentucky has 21. Marquette has 5.
Not to be picky but MU has 7 guys that have logged at least 1 minute in the NBA
Wade
Novak
Wes
Lazar
Butler
Jae
DJO
I believe this puts MU in the top 10 of players in the Association. But your larger point is correct.
(and MU has three alumni as head coaches, Doc, Boylan and Franks. That ranks MU second behind IU that has 4 alumni as coaches)
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I dont think the blue bloods have a high amount of transfers, actually. In fact, they may have less than MU....
Not true, we had a post on this a while back, they have among the highest transfer rates around. UNC had four transfers alone two years ago. Not unusual for Duke to get two a year.
When you recruit 9 McDonald AAs they are not going to stick around if they cannot play.
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I trust 4ever, like I said....except when he says college basketball is a big man's game. ;D It's a guard's game, always has been and always will be. UNC can't get it done the last few years because their guards have been crap. Same for UCLA. Gots to have the smalls with balls.
That's my dad, Chicos. Always the prankster. Gotta love him.
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Not to be picky but MU has 7 guys that have logged at least 1 minute in the NBA
Wade
Novak
Wes
Lazar
Butler
Jae
DJO
I believe this puts MU in the top 10 of players in the Association. But your larger point is correct.
(and MU has three alumni as head coaches, Doc, Boylan and Franks. That ranks MU second behind IU that has 4 alumni as coaches)
You are correct, the list on CBS only shows 5. The list on ESPN shows 6, probably because DJO currently not on roster. MU has 7. Still far behind the others.
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Second, MU was elite in the 1970's and has been very good in the 2000's...but not even the best in the state in the 2000's so we need to make sure we not put the blinders on.
I understand you have only one measure, the tourney. And UW has been able to get the S16 more than us because they have to beat 10 and 12 seeds in the second round where we have to beat 3 seeds.
But if you look at the regular season.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/
MU has been ranked at least 1 week 10 of the last 12 years. Top 10 5 of the last 12 years (including last year)
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/wisconsin/
UW has been ranked at least 1 week 11 of the last 12 years. Top 10 4 of the last 12 years (including last year)
Now I know you will give me 700 words that I am wrong and UW is better. Let's just call it a tie (they are both well above average) and agree that they have very different styles and ask if Looney's style makes sense at UW?
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A few more thoughts...
1) Stretch, wanting Looney here or accepting he probably won't be here has nothing to do with loyalty. But of the people I've talked with that are close to the recruitment, all of them seem to think we're probably not going to get him.
2) Not sure how relevant it is, but I think Wiggins is FAR more likely to go to UK than UNC. Maybe the family connection gets him to FSU, but I doubt it.
3) Bo has finished in the top-4 of the Big Ten every year since forever. They had the better decade. It's okay...we'll have the better next decade as long as Buzz sticks.
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You are correct, the list on CBS only shows 5. The list on ESPN shows 6, probably because DJO currently not on roster. MU has 7. Still far behind the others.
How many for UW?
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Trying to determine what thought process drives the decisions of teenagers is nearly pointless.
That said, I believe history is typically the best indicator. If you are an elite talent and one of the big boys offers you a scholly, you typically accept.
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Well, look at the numbers
Duke has 18 kinds currently in the NBA. Kentucky has 21. Marquette has 5.
I don't think that point refutes my argument (though it is a point well taken for the proposition that many NBA type players attend Duke). My argument (well, more of a question) went more toward whether going to the big 4 actually helps your chances. I don't think so, because the big 4 get the best players out of HS who would make it if they sent to MU or Illinois or UConn. That's why I said:
"it must be very hard to measure because it is somewhat self-selecting-- the best HS players Dom go to those schools, so those schools get more players into the league. But won't talent win out in the end no matter where from?"
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I don't think that point refutes my argument (though it is a point well taken for the proposition that many NBA type players attend Duke). My argument (well, more of a question) went more toward whether going to the big 4 actually helps your chances. I don't think so, because the big 4 get the best players out of HS who would make it if they sent to MU or Illinois or UConn.
This is easy to say, and sounds plausible, but also impossible to prove. For every lower ranked recruit that unexpectedly makes it to the NBA, there is an elite prospect that failed to make it. Hard to definitively say what impact the school choice / coach had on either situation.
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I understand you have only one measure, the tourney. And UW has been able to get the S16 more than us because they have to beat 10 and 12 seeds in the second round where we have to beat 3 seeds.
But if you look at the regular season.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/
MU has been ranked at least 1 week 10 of the last 12 years. Top 10 5 of the last 12 years (including last year)
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/wisconsin/
UW has been ranked at least 1 week 11 of the last 12 years. Top 10 4 of the last 12 years (including last year)
Now I know you will give me 700 words that I am wrong and UW is better. Let's just call it a tie (they are both well above average) and agree that they have very different styles and ask if Looney's style makes sense at UW?
No sir, actually I have many measures. Not sure how your rankings data overshadows below, I really don't. It is what it is. We've been really good, they've been a touch better.
Conference championships...UW-madison
Conference tournament championships....UW-madison
NCAA Tournament appearances...UW-madison (they have made the NCAAs EVERY year since 2000)
NCAA Tournament wins....UW-madison
Regular season wins...UW-madison
Head to head against MU...UW-madison
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How many for UW?
I have no idea, I would guess 1 or 2. They are a very good college basketball program, but not a program you go to if you want to aspire to the NBA in my opinion. A number of programs are like that. Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc. A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.
EDIT: They have 3
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I have no idea, I would guess 1 or 2. They are a very good college basketball program, but not a program you go to if you want to aspire to the NBA in my opinion. A number of programs are like that. Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc. A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.
EDIT: They have 3
Harris, Devin PG Atlanta Hawks
Leuer, Jon PF Cleveland Cavaliers
Stiemsma, Greg C Minnesota Timberwolves
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No sir, actually I have many measures. Not sure how your rankings data overshadows below, I really don't. It is what it is. We've been really good, they've been a touch better.
Conference championships...UW-madison
Conference tournament championships....UW-madison
NCAA Tournament appearances...UW-madison (they have made the NCAAs EVERY year since 2000)
NCAA Tournament wins....UW-madison
Regular season wins...UW-madison
Head to head against MU...UW-madison
I'll bet if you use this measure against schools like Michigan State, Louisville, Georgetown, Kentucky and UCLA UW is the better program. No one will buy this.
Added later ... And using these measures, Memphis, Butler and Gonzaga are better programs than UW. You buying that?
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MU is tied for 11th this year.
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http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.php
2012 - 2013 Season
School In NBA
1. Kentucky 20
2. Duke 17
3. North Carolina 17
4. Kansas 14
5. Connecticut 12
6. UCLA 12
7. Texas 11
8. Florida 10
9. Arizona 9
10. Washington 8
11. Georgia Tech 7
12. Marquette 7
13. Notre Dame 6
14. Ohio State 6
15. Syracuse 6
16. Wake Forest 6
17. Gonzaga 5
18. Louisiana State 5
19. Memphis 5
20. Michigan State 5
21. Stanford 5
22. USC 5
23. Baylor 4
24. Colorado 4
25. Villanova 4
Other Stats
* There were 56 foreign players on 2012-13 NBA opening-day rosters, or 12.5% of the NBA total. That is 5 foreign players more than last season.
* A total of 31 players went straight from U.S. high schools to the NBA (7.0% of the NBA total)
* 2 players attended non-Division I colleges (0.5%).
* Division I colleges provide the balance of 357 NBA players (80.0%).
* Foreign players that played in U.S. colleges are counted under the appropriate Division I school listing.
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I'll bet if you use this measure against schools like Michigan State, Louisville, Georgetown, Kentucky and UCLA UW is the better program. No one will buy this.
Added later ... And using these measures, Memphis, Butler and Gonzaga are better programs than UW. You buying that?
I'm not sure where anyone said a better program. I said better since 2000, not overall.
The measure(s) I used were many, not one. That was the point, so no one can go out and cherry pick one thing...you know...like rankings. I used actual results, WINNING AND LOSING and championships which are derived from winning and losing. So actually, using those measures, it might just surprise you. It shows there isn't necessarily a clear cut answer. For example, UCLA has won more NCAA games in the 2000's than UW-madison. But UW-madison has been to the tournament more often. UW-madison has won more regular season games, but UCLA more conference championships. Same with Michigan State, same with some of the others. That's why using multiple criteria is a good idea.
Do I think Gonzaga and Butler are better programs in the 2000's than Wisconsin...very credible argument absolutely can be made. Butler has two championship NCAA games, a ton of NCAA victories, conference championships, etc. Even head to head over UW-madison in the tournament. All that being said, UW-madison has some things over those schools as well. So it's inconclusive.
I don't see how it's inconclusive UW-madison over us since 2000 by any appreciable measure that uses wins, championships, post season appearances, post season success. To each their own.
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If a kid is elite and doesn't have a preference for staying close to home, MU has almost no chance against Duke/coach K. That's no knock on Marquette - lots of good programs on that little to no chance list, including Michigan St, Ohio St and Indiana.
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This is easy to say, and sounds plausible, but also impossible to prove. For every lower ranked recruit that unexpectedly makes it to the NBA, there is an elite prospect that failed to make it. Hard to definitively say what impact the school choice / coach had on either situation.
That's my guess. In any event, I can't figure out how to measure it. Which brings me back around to the original point: it may not make sense for recruits to have as one of their reasons (among many other very good reasons- the coach; the school; the competiton; the chance to win etc.) for choosing the Big 4 that it enhances their opportunity to play in the league.
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MU is tied for 11th this year.
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http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.php
2012 - 2013 Season
School In NBA
1. Kentucky 20
2. Duke 17
Kentucky has 21, not 20. Duke has 18, not 17.
Bledsoe, Eric
Bogans, Keith
Cousins, DeMarcus
Davis, Anthony
Harrellson, Josh
Hayes, Chuck
Jones, Terrence
Kanter, Enes
Kidd-Gilchrist, Michael
Knight, Brandon
Lamb, Doron
Liggins, DeAndre
Meeks, Jodie
Miller, Darius
Mohammed, Nazr
Orton, Daniel
Patterson, Patrick
Prince, Tayshaun
Rondo, Rajon
Teague, Marquis
Wall, John
Duke
Battier, Shane
Boozer, Carlos
Brand, Elton
Deng, Luol
Duhon, Chris
Dunleavy, Mike
Henderson, Gerald
Hill, Grant
Irving, Kyrie
Jones, Dahntay
Maggette, Corey
McRoberts, Josh
Plumlee, Miles
Redick, J.J.
Rivers, Austin
Singler, Kyle
Smith, Nolan
Thomas, Lance
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If a kid is elite and doesn't have a preference to staying close to home, MU has almost no chance against Duke/coach K. That's no knock on Marqutte - lots of good programs on that little to no chance list, including Michigan St, Ohio St and Indiana.
+1
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I'm not sure where anyone said a better program. I said better since 2000, not overall.
The measure(s) I used were many, not one. That was the point, so no one can go out and cherry pick one thing...you know...like rankings.
Isn't this just the rehashing of a pre-banning argument? You cherry-picked one arbitrary thing in this argument that is even more arbitrary now than it was pre-banning, the year 2000. Neither program even has the same coach. Completely arbitrary and cherrypicked.
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Isn't this just the rehashing of a pre-banning argument? You cherry-picked one arbitrary thing in this argument that is even more arbitrary now than it was pre-banning, the year 2000. Neither program even has the same coach. Completely arbitrary and cherrypicked.
Everything is arbitrary. Since 2000, the last decade, same result. Last 15 years, same result. Last 20 years, same result. Now, go to last 40 years, result changes.
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Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc. A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.
EDIT: They have 3
there are 4 Zags in the Association.
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Interesting to see that Louisville is not in the top 25.
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there are 4 Zags in the Association.
Sacre, Pargo, Daye, Turiaff.
Morrison could have been 5.
There are also two Zags in the NBADL, and one Warrior (Jerel).
RE: Tokoto, it is still my hope that UNC recruits over him, limits his playing time, and he comes back to Milwaukee to shine.
Just peeped his numbers though: 10.6 minutes per game, 52.9% FG, but 8-22 from the FT (yikes).
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RE: Tokoto, it is still my hope that UNC recruits over him, limits his playing time, and he comes back to Milwaukee to shine.
Just peeped his numbers though: 10.6 minutes per game, 52.9% FG, but 8-22 from the FT (yikes).
Tokoto will get plenty of opportunities at UNC if he is willing to stick it out and compete. If not, he could very well end up at a program like MU. But, Williams and those who cover the Tar Heels seem to like his potential / upside.
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As far as Berry I find it relatively unrealistic. I have no insider information to base this opinion off of but I do know the Orlando area well. Berry changed schools from Apopka to Highland (a VERY nice private school that had a winning tradition) his sophomore year. He is someone who is obviously very concerned about winning and will probably look long and hard at those top flight programs. Also being from FL I find it very hard to believe that he will ever make it out of the state. Billy Donovan has a very strong hold on the top players from the state and most are attracted to the warm weather and up tempo style of play that is offered at UF. I would love to see Berry in an MU uniform more than anyone but I doubt it will happen.
Thanks for the insight. With Derrick Wilson, Duane Wilson, and John Dawson in the fold I was skeptical that we had a chance with him, but you never know - Buzz constantly talks about how much he loves to bring in point guards.
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Sacre, Pargo, Daye, Turiaff.
Morrison could have been 5.
There are also two Zags in the NBADL, and one Warrior (Jerel).
RE: Tokoto, it is still my hope that UNC recruits over him, limits his playing time, and he comes back to Milwaukee to shine.
Just peeped his numbers though: 10.6 minutes per game, 52.9% FG, but 8-22 from the FT (yikes).
If we want to compete at UNC's level, I don't think we should take transfers that couldn't crack the rotation there.
I would rather take a chance on an "under the radar" player that at least has a chance at becoming an elite level player than one we already know isn't there.
If he wants to come home to Milwaukee, let him play at UWM.
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A few points:
1. When one of our guys has a good game in the NBA, we get excited and post about it here. For Duke, Kentucky and UNC, it's "ho-hum, another great game by one of our guys." In recent years, Kentucky has sent its entire starting lineup into the NBA. We are happy (and rightly so) when one of our guys gets drafted at all. Those places are basketball factories; Marquette is not, for better or worse. As for the argument that we would be a basketball factory if more elite players came here, well sure. But they don't -- perhaps in part because they don't see us as a basketball factory.
2. Whether UW or MU has been a better program since 2000 is irrelevant. All that matters is now. Marquette would seem to be trending on more of an upward path, both in recruiting and in recent results against UW. I'd argue for MU, but of course I'm a little biased.
3. Some high school kids either have no preference toward staying close to home or actually want to get away from home and try something new. I'm an East Coast kid who was accepted at five schools. Four were in the East, the other was Marquette. My brothers all went to eastern schools. When it came time for my choice, I wanted to do something different, so I chose Marquette -- sight unseen and not knowing a single person West of Philadelphia. I wasn't quite an elite-level athlete (though I was on some good intramural teams!!), but the thought is the same.
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I trust 4ver for all of the obvious reasons. In addition, there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to go away to school. Many parents mandate that their kids go away to experience life. The kid has every option in the world and hope he makes his dreams come true.
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saw Looney at a game a month or so back-
sat in the first row behind the bench, where I am recruit/visitors are placed for game observation.
I've seen many there over the years, but few as disinterested in what was transpiring on the floor in front of him.
he paid a great deal of attention to his phone (teenager, of course), smirked a few times at what was on the jumbotron above and was annoyed by the wee lil' ones next to him being small children doing small children stuff.
but mostly stoically sat- texted- ate popcorn.
perhaps because it was a stinker of a game?
but he did not seem impressed.
imo
would love to have him here- but unless he's the lowest of all low key personalities out there, he did not appear exciting one iota…
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Not an indicator by any stretch. I sit near recruit seats and every recruit tries to be too cool to be interested. I am telling you, recruit indifference at games means absolutely nothing.
saw Looney at a game a month or so back-
sat in the first row behind the bench, where I am recruit/visitors are placed for game observation.
I've seen many there over the years, but few as disinterested in what was transpiring on the floor in front of him.
he paid a great deal of attention to his phone (teenager, of course), smirked a few times at what was on the jumbotron above and was annoyed by the wee lil' ones next to him being small children doing small children stuff.
but mostly stoically sat- texted- ate popcorn.
perhaps because it was a stinker of a game?
but he did not seem impressed.
imo
would love to have him here- but unless he's the lowest of all low key personalities out there, he did not appear exciting one iota…
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As much as I would like a player like Looney, more importantly, I think MU will need a big man to replace Gardner, that should be more on the radar. I know about Stone, but
he is the following year. Lost Emblid, so MU needs someone? Any ideas?
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Would not dismiss a recruit's interest in MU over his attitude or excitement level at game. Plenty of games I am disinterested and looking forward to halftime to socialize and I am paying money to be there.
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Everything is arbitrary. Since 2000, the last decade, same result. Last 15 years, same result. Last 20 years, same result. Now, go to last 40 years, result changes.
Or go last 5 years, since Buzz got here and attempt to look forward. I think that's what you would have to do to look at the state of the program. I would say as long as Buzz stays our program has a much higher ceiling than UW and about the same floor. Bo is essentially a mid-major coach in a major conference. The trend of the stats is changing and will continue to change. Whether you go 10, 13, 15, or 20 years into the past, you will not see that. Because you are essentially looking at UW's success from the end of the Dick Bennett era and the beginning of the Bo Ryan era. I would say a lot has changed for the positive at MU since that time, and UW has pretty much stayed the same.
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Or go last 5 years, since Buzz got here and attempt to look forward. I think that's what you would have to do to look at the state of the program. I would say as long as Buzz stays our program has a much higher ceiling than UW and about the same floor. Bo is essentially a mid-major coach in a major conference. The trend of the stats is changing and will continue to change. Whether you go 10, 13, 15, or 20 years into the past, you will not see that. Because you are essentially looking at UW's success from the end of the Dick Bennett era and the beginning of the Bo Ryan era. I would say a lot has changed for the positive at MU since that time, and UW has pretty much stayed the same.
As far as the trajectory, I'm done saying UW-madison's trajectory is flat. I hear that EVERY single year and EVERY single year they finish in the top 3 or 4 in the conference.
Use the last 5 years.
UW-madison has more regular season wins than us 125 to 120
UW-Madison won a conference title in that time, we didn't
Worst conference finish 4th for UW-madison....tied for 9th for MU
NCAA appearances tied with 5
NCAA wins goes to UW-madison 8 vs MU's 6
The data is the data. We've been really good, they've just been a step ahead. I hope it changes, believe me. I'm just not going to underestimate them because they keep pulling it off year after year after year.
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As far as the trajectory, I'm done saying UW-madison's trajectory is flat. I hear that EVERY single year and EVERY single year they finish in the top 3 or 4 in the conference.
Use the last 5 years.
UW-madison has more regular season wins than us 125 to 120
UW-Madison won a conference title in that time, we didn't
Worst conference finish 4th for UW-madison....tied for 9th for MU
NCAA appearances tied with 5
NCAA wins goes to UW-madison 8 vs MU's 6
The data is the data. We've been really good, they've just been a step ahead. I hope it changes, believe me. I'm just not going to underestimate them because they keep pulling it off year after year after year.
If you use the actual 4+ seasons that Buzz has been the head coach...
Total wins: MU 109, Wisc 108
NCAA appearances: 4 each
NCAA wins (average seed of win): Wisc 6 (8.8), MU 5 (8.0)
Avg NCAA seed: MU 6.5, Wisc 6.0
Sweet 16s: 2 each
Head to Head: MU 3, Wisc 2
Average conf finish (percentile): MU - top 29% (5.25/18) , Wisc - top 34% (3.75/11)
Avg Conf RPI: Big East - 2.5, Big 10 - 2.5
Hard to look at those numbers and consider either program to be "a step ahead."
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If we want to compete at UNC's level, I don't think we should take transfers that couldn't crack the rotation there.
I would rather take a chance on an "under the radar" player that at least has a chance at becoming an elite level player than one we already know isn't there.
If he wants to come home to Milwaukee, let him play at UWM.
did you feel that way about Wilson when he chose to return home?
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If Tokoto wanted to transfer you jump at like we did with Wilson. We very well might be local kids second option and anyone with a lot of stars next to their name is welcome to come back home IMO. In some cases a year away from home might best thing.
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As far as the trajectory, I'm done saying UW-madison's trajectory is flat. I hear that EVERY single year and EVERY single year they finish in the top 3 or 4 in the conference.
Use the last 5 years.
UW-madison has more regular season wins than us 125 to 120
UW-Madison won a conference title in that time, we didn't
Worst conference finish 4th for UW-madison....tied for 9th for MU
NCAA appearances tied with 5
NCAA wins goes to UW-madison 8 vs MU's 6
The data is the data. We've been really good, they've just been a step ahead. I hope it changes, believe me. I'm just not going to underestimate them because they keep pulling it off year after year after year.
Why don't you use NBA players in your arguement as well..
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Why don't you use NBA players in your arguement as well..
Probably because we're talking about success at the college level.
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Probably because we're talking about success at the college level.
So success at the college level doesn't translate to getting players to the next level? Dearly noted.
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So success at the college level doesn't translate to getting players to the next level? Dearly noted.
I think you meant "duly noted". And no, not necessarily.
Adam Morrison, Scottie Reynolds, and Michael Beasley were all fantastic college players that had only marginal success at the next level. All of them were All-Americans. There are countless other all-Conference players that are collegiate superstars that never succeed at the next level. Alando Tucker, Jordan Taylor, Jon Leuer, and Marcus Landry were all great college players that never did great at the next level.
Sometimes guys are surprisingly better at the next level than they are in college. Wes Matthews is a great example as he was usually the third or fourth option at Marquette but has become one of the best players in Portland while Greg Stiemsma was never a great player for Wisconsin but has found a niche in the NBA.
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As far as the trajectory, I'm done saying UW-madison's trajectory is flat. I hear that EVERY single year and EVERY single year they finish in the top 3 or 4 in the conference.
Use the last 5 years.
UW-madison has more regular season wins than us 125 to 120
UW-Madison won a conference title in that time, we didn't
Worst conference finish 4th for UW-madison....tied for 9th for MU
NCAA appearances tied with 5
NCAA wins goes to UW-madison 8 vs MU's 6
The data is the data. We've been really good, they've just been a step ahead. I hope it changes, believe me. I'm just not going to underestimate them because they keep pulling it off year after year after year.
I'm with you. I hate UW-Madison, but every year they deliver results. They're like a bad rash...just can't get rid of them.
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If you use the actual 4+ seasons that Buzz has been the head coach...
Total wins: MU 109, Wisc 108
NCAA appearances: 4 each
NCAA wins (average seed of win): Wisc 6 (8.8), MU 5 (8.0)
Avg NCAA seed: MU 6.5, Wisc 6.0
Sweet 16s: 2 each
Head to Head: MU 3, Wisc 2
Average conf finish (percentile): MU - top 29% (5.25/18) , Wisc - top 34% (3.75/11)
Avg Conf RPI: Big East - 2.5, Big 10 - 2.5
Hard to look at those numbers and consider either program to be "a step ahead."
Seems like one could throw a blanket over both of the programs and get a pick 'em. I guess that's why our annual rivalry game is really a big deal these days. All good.
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If we want to compete at UNC's level, I don't think we should take transfers that couldn't crack the rotation there.
I would rather take a chance on an "under the radar" player that at least has a chance at becoming an elite level player than one we already know isn't there.
If he wants to come home to Milwaukee, let him play at UWM.
This is a ridiculous post on many levels.
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I think you meant "duly noted". And no, not necessarily.
Sometimes guys are surprisingly better at the next level than they are in college. Wes Matthews is a great example as he was usually the third or fourth option at Marquette but has become one of the best players in Portland while Greg Stiemsma was never a great player for Wisconsin but has found a niche in the NBA.
Wesley was never better than the third option his first 3 years under TC. His senior year Buzz "took the chains off of him" (Wesley's own words) and made him the co-number one option. It wasn't quite enough to get him drafted, but his senior year gave him a look and he seized the opportunity.
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If we want to compete at UNC's level, I don't think we should take transfers that couldn't crack the rotation there.
I would rather take a chance on an "under the radar" player that at least has a chance at becoming an elite level player than one we already know isn't there.
If he wants to come home to Milwaukee, let him play at UWM.
Tyler Zeller averaged under 8 minutes per game as a freshman at UNC. Think he would have look OK in a Marquette uni despite that?
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Tyler Zeller averaged under 8 minutes per game as a freshman at UNC. Think he would have look OK in a Marquette uni despite that?
Of course not.
See example Blue, Vander.
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Of course not.
See example Blue, Vander.
I will answer this seriously ...
The difference is Zeller and Blue underperformed their Freshman year. Tokoto is about the lowest rated recruit at UNC. Everyone else was higher rated and everyone else (or nine others to be exact) are getting more minutes.
This might not change that much in coming years.
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I will answer this seriously ...
The difference is Zeller and Blue underperformed their Freshman year. Tokoto is about the lowest rated recruit at UNC. Everyone else was higher rated and everyone else (or nine others to be exact) are getting more minutes.
This might not change that much in coming years.
I don't think you can really say Blue and Zeller "underperformed".
To say they underperformed means there is a certain base level of performance that they failed to meet. What level of performance are you using as a standard? High School? Expectations? Whose expectations? Yours? The coaching staff?
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Why don't you use NBA players in your arguement as well..
One of UW's NBA players just got traded for three players and a #1 draft pick. No MU player has ever been traded for so much.
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One of UW's NBA players just got traded for three players and a #1 draft pick. No MU player has ever been traded for so much.
Are you really going to try and argue Madison's nba success against MU?
Troll?
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I was joking. Memphis was clearly dumping salary. They would have traded for a pile of turds just as soon as they traded for Jon Leuer.
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Why don't you use NBA players in your arguement as well..
Because NBA players don't dictate success on the court in college. They don't count for extra NCAA appearances, extra NCAA wins, extra regular season wins, extra conference titles, etc. They are good to have, definitely something that should allow one to recruit better players, no question.
To me that's like judging a pro team on how many all-stars or pro bowlers they have. The Patriots have what, 8 or 9 going to Hawaii, yet Baltimore is going to the Super Bowl.
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As far as the trajectory, I'm done saying UW-madison's trajectory is flat. I hear that EVERY single year and EVERY single year they finish in the top 3 or 4 in the conference.
Use the last 5 years.
UW-madison has more regular season wins than us 125 to 120
UW-Madison won a conference title in that time, we didn't
Worst conference finish 4th for UW-madison....tied for 9th for MU
NCAA appearances tied with 5
NCAA wins goes to UW-madison 8 vs MU's 6
The data is the data. We've been really good, they've just been a step ahead. I hope it changes, believe me. I'm just not going to underestimate them because they keep pulling it off year after year after year.
So now you leave out head-to-head. That's cherry picking. I can't think of a more meaningless number than regular season wins. Also, comparing results in the Big 10 to the Big East in the last 5 years is not apples to apples. The year we tied for 9th we tied for 9th with the team that won the NCAA championship. The Big 10 is stronger this year than its been in years. Its more than 3-4 deep as it has been in previous years. We'll see how UW does. I think the 1-4 goes away.
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So now you leave out head-to-head. That's cherry picking.
Everybody is cherry picking. UW has had a great decade and will probably have the same steady results as long as Bo sticks around. There's no shame for us that they've been good.
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So now you leave out head-to-head. That's cherry picking. I can't think of a more meaningless number than regular season wins. Also, comparing results in the Big 10 to the Big East in the last 5 years is not apples to apples. The year we tied for 9th we tied for 9th with the team that won the NCAA championship. The Big 10 is stronger this year than its been in years. Its more than 3-4 deep as it has been in previous years. We'll see how UW does. I think the 1-4 goes away.
Not intentional. What is head to head last 5 years? 2-3? Not sure, asking. One for MU.
Regular season wins are meaningless? Hmm, and here I thought that was a major criteria for getting into the NCAA tournament. Meaningless to you, not meaningless to people that know.
All kinds of criteria could be used, I just took some of the most important off the top of my head. You could do wins against tournament teams. Wins against ranked teams. Etc. Both programs have done very well, unfortunately one has done a little bit better in most of those categories. Not all, but most. About 75% of those categories. There are some good comparison tools on the web that can lay it all out on one page like Stat Sheet. I wish the results were different, but they aren't.
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Not intentional. What is head to head last 5 years? 2-3? Not sure, asking. One for MU.
3-2
Buzz beat them with the Amigos at home. We lost the next two years, up there with the Lazar team and back here with the Jimmy Sweet 16 team. We've won the last two, last year up there when Mayo went off and this year at home. Hopefully these two years start a trend and next year we can become the first team to win 3 in a row since the Badgers won 4 from 1998-2001.
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Everybody is cherry picking. UW has had a great decade and will probably have the same steady results as long as Bo sticks around. There's no shame for us that they've been good.
+1
Our success or failure is not dependent on what is happening in Madison. So, if we are the best or second best program in the state (as Chicos likes to say over and over) is irrelevant.
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How did a thread about Looney turn into a d*ck measuring contest between MU and Madison? Looney's not going to Madison. There is a very outside chance Buzz convinces him to stay in Milwaukee with Burton, Wilson, and McKay. There is an overwhelmingly strong chance that he decides to go to Duke, UNC, or Kentucky.
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Not intentional. What is head to head last 5 years? 2-3? Not sure, asking. One for MU.
Regular season wins are meaningless? Hmm, and here I thought that was a major criteria for getting into the NCAA tournament. Meaningless to you, not meaningless to people that know.
All kinds of criteria could be used, I just took some of the most important off the top of my head. You could do wins against tournament teams. Wins against ranked teams. Etc. Both programs have done very well, unfortunately one has done a little bit better in most of those categories. Not all, but most. About 75% of those categories. There are some good comparison tools on the web that can lay it all out on one page like Stat Sheet. I wish the results were different, but they aren't.
I'll post again since you ignored it the first time.
If you use the actual 4+ seasons that Buzz has been the head coach...
Total wins: MU 109, Wisc 108
NCAA appearances: 4 each
NCAA wins (average seed of win): Wisc 6 (8.8), MU 5 (8.0)
Avg NCAA seed: MU 6.5, Wisc 6.0
Sweet 16s: 2 each
Head to Head: MU 3, Wisc 2
Average conf finish (percentile): MU - top 32.8% (5.25/16) , Wisc - top 34% (3.75/11)
Avg Conf RPI: Big East - 2.5, Big 10 - 2.5
Hard to look at those numbers and consider either program to be "a step ahead."
EDIT: Average conference finish updated. Thanks for the heads-up, MUfan12.
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"Average conf finish (percentile): MU - top 29% (5.25/18) , Wisc - top 34% (3.75/11)"
There's only 16 in the BE.
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How did a thread about Looney turn into a d*ck measuring contest between MU and Madison? Looney's not going to Madison. There is a very outside chance Buzz convinces him to stay in Milwaukee with Burton, Wilson, and McKay. There is an overwhelmingly strong chance that he decides to go to Duke, UNC, or Kentucky.
It's page 5 of a post. VERY few post are on subject once they make page 3.
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did you feel that way about Wilson when he chose to return home?
No, mainly because Wilson didn't fail to crack UNC's rotation, nor was his coach Roy Williams.
If Tokoto wanted to transfer you jump at like we did with Wilson. We very well might be local kids second option and anyone with a lot of stars next to their name is welcome to come back home IMO. In some cases a year away from home might best thing.
I guess I see these as two very different situations.
At Oregon, Wilson played under a coach on the hotseat specificlaly becuase he gained the reputation of not developing or getting the most out of his talent. Under that coach Wilson showed a lot of promise, cracked the starting lineup (14 of 26 games). He didn't play late in the year not because he was deep in the rotation but likely retaliation for wanting to transfer.
Tokoto situation is different. Roy Williams isn't on his way out, nor is he known for failing to use or develop talent. Tokoto hasn't shown the same promise at UNC and hasn't shown to be quite good enough to crack the regular rotation in ACC conference play.
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+1
Our success or failure is not dependent on what is happening in Madison. So, if we are the best or second best program in the state (as Chicos likes to say over and over) is irrelevant.
We agree, our program's success has nothing to do with Madison. I said that in this very thread...we've been very good. It's typically the ridiculous comments that are thrown around how certain players would never consider UW because their program is inferior to ours where one wonders what cave they have lived in the last 15 years to make such a statement.
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I'll post again since you ignored it the first time.
If you use the actual 4+ seasons that Buzz has been the head coach...
Total wins: MU 109, Wisc 108
NCAA appearances: 4 each
NCAA wins (average seed of win): Wisc 6 (8.8), MU 5 (8.0)
Avg NCAA seed: MU 6.5, Wisc 6.0
Sweet 16s: 2 each
Head to Head: MU 3, Wisc 2
Average conf finish (percentile): MU - top 32.8% (5.25/16) , Wisc - top 34% (3.75/11)
Avg Conf RPI: Big East - 2.5, Big 10 - 2.5
Hard to look at those numbers and consider either program to be "a step ahead."
EDIT: Average conference finish updated. Thanks for the heads-up, MUfan12.
Fair enough, but note I said there were many other categories. I also used completed seasons, but that's fine if you want to bring in a half season. Doesn't make my statement incorrect based on the data I used, which was the completed seasons going 5, 10, 15 year increments. If you want to go 4.47 increments ;D, that's fine.
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Fair enough, but note I said there were many other categories. I also used completed seasons, but that's fine if you want to bring in a half season. Doesn't make my statement incorrect based on the data I used, which was the completed seasons going 5, 10, 15 year increments. If you want to go 4.47 increments ;D, that's fine.
I'm not saying it's the be all, end all especially if you want to throw in quality wins, SOS, etc. I'm just pointing out it's not as one-sided as you led on. Also, I was using the time since Buzz became head coach. That seemed like a logical, relevant place to start as opposed to just an arbitrary amount of time (5, 10, 15 years, etc).
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Fair enough, but note I said there were many other categories. I also used completed seasons, but that's fine if you want to bring in a half season. Doesn't make my statement incorrect based on the data I used, which was the completed seasons going 5, 10, 15 year increments. If you want to go 4.47 increments ;D, that's fine.
I think his point was to compare apples to apples. Buzz has 4.47 apples in his MU basket to compare to the most recent 4.47 apples of the Bo Ryan/UW era. It's pretty much a dead heat, but I like the way we're trending - 18-2 over the last year+ in the Big East. It will be challenging to maintain our momentum through the Big East breakup but if we can keep Buzz I'm optimistic.
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We agree, our program's success has nothing to do with Madison. I said that in this very thread...we've been very good. It's typically the ridiculous comments that are thrown around how certain players would never consider UW because their program is inferior to ours where one wonders what cave they have lived in the last 15 years to make such a statement.
I'm sure you can produce some posts that claim UW is inferior so some players would not, or should not, consider Madison. What I recall (without doing a search) is that Madison plays are very different style of play than MU and certain players would not fit well with that system.
This is true and it works both ways.
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Didn't ESPN have an article a couple months ago ranking the best basketball colleges going back 50 years i believe?
I think MU cracked the top 20, and the Badgers weren't even on the list.
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Didn't ESPN have an article a couple months ago ranking the best basketball colleges going back 50 years i believe?
I think MU cracked the top 20, and the Badgers weren't even on the list.
Wisconsin didn't have basketball until the mid-90s.
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Just saw this "ALL STAR" lineup on ESPN's web page today...
Wisconsin's All-Bo Ryan team
Starters
PG: Jordan Taylor -- Averaged 18.1 points and 4.7 assists as a junior in 2010-11
SG: Devin Harris -- 2nd team All-American in 2003-04; No. 5 overall pick in NBA draft
SF: Alando Tucker -- First-team All-American and Big Ten Player of the Year in 2006-07
PF: Jon Leuer -- Efficient post player averaged 18.3 points, 7.2 rebounds in 2010-11
C: Mike Wilkinson -- Became the second Badger to record 1,500 points and 800 boards
Yeah, maybe MU isn't as bad as UW.
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Wisconsin didn't have basketball until the mid-90s.
How could they? That's when they invented the sport.
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How could they? That's when they invented the sport.
I believe that was just a couple years after the student body wrote the song "Jump Around."
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Just saw this "ALL STAR" lineup on ESPN's web page today...
Wisconsin's All-Bo Ryan team
Starters
PG: Jordan Taylor -- Averaged 18.1 points and 4.7 assists as a junior in 2010-11
SG: Devin Harris -- 2nd team All-American in 2003-04; No. 5 overall pick in NBA draft
SF: Alando Tucker -- First-team All-American and Big Ten Player of the Year in 2006-07
PF: Jon Leuer -- Efficient post player averaged 18.3 points, 7.2 rebounds in 2010-11
C: Mike Wilkinson -- Became the second Badger to record 1,500 points and 800 boards
Yeah, maybe MU isn't as bad as UW.
Only player I want at MU, comparing against players of same era, is Wilkinson.
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Just checked in... what does all this have to do with Looney????
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Just checked in... what does all this have to do with Looney????
After page 2 of any thread, there's about a 12% chance of the original topic still being discussed.
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All threads are wildly off topic by page 3
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFcufSBjlVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFcufSBjlVI)
Videos like this really make me hope we keep Looney close. Just like Deonte Burton wants to be a mentor, Looney seems to have that same leadership and desire to be a mentor for local kids. Really awesome stuff and hope we can keep him around not just for his game, but because he seems to be a great character guy that would do well in Buzz's system.
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Very impressive video with an excellent message. Kevon seems like a quality individual who wants to mentor and possibly coach some day. Will hope and pray that he decides to continue his basketball at Marquette. He will be a great inspiration for Milwaukee youths.
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Didn't ESPN have an article a couple months ago ranking the best basketball colleges going back 50 years i believe?
I think MU cracked the top 20, and the Badgers weren't even on the list.
Street and Smith did it in 2005 for the top 100 programs. MU was 33,Wisconsin 55. Of course that was 7 years ago and a lot has changed, but enough to vault teams around would be based on how much weighting they give to each criteria.
1 Kentucky
2 UCLA
3 UNC
4 Kansas
5 Duke
6 Indiana
7 Louisville
8 Arkansas
9 UCONN
10 Cincinnati
11 Utah
12 Ohio State
13 Oklahoma State
14 Arizona
15 Syracuse
16 Penn
17 NCSU
18 St John's
19 Princeton
20 Temple
21 Georgetown
22 Kansas State
23 Texas
24 Oklahoma
25 Michigan State
26 Michigan
27 Illinois
28 UNLV
29 San Francisco
30 Purdue
31 Western Kentucky
32 Villanova
33 Marquette
34 West Virginia
35 Maryland
36 BYU
37 Houston
38 Missouri
39 Notre Dame
40 Iowa
41 Cal
42 Wyoming
43 Saint Joe's
44 Stanford
45 Creighton
46 Wake Forest
47 Miami of Ohio
48 Xavier
49 UTEP
50 LSU
51 Weber State
52 Murray State
53 La Salle
54 Alabama
55 Wisconsin
56 Virginia
57 DePaul
58 Oregon State
59 Tulsa
60 Pitt
61 Memphis
62 NC A&T
63 Bradley
64 Georgia Tech
65 Colorado
66 Dartmouth
67 Texas Tech
68 Holy Cross
69 Pepperdine
70 New Mexico State
71 Southern Methodist
72 Santa Clara
73 Idaho State
74 Boston College
75 Providence
76 Southern Cal
77 Tennessee
78 Massachussetts
79 Dayton
80 Davidson
81 Chattanooga
82 Utah State
83 Alcorn State
84 Iowa State
85 Washington
86 Ohio
87 Navy
88 Charlotte
89 Gonzaga
90 Valparaiso
91 Seton Hall
92 Arizona State
93 Northeastern
94 Oregon
95 LA-Monroe
96 Florida
97 Loyola
98 New Mexico
99 Mississippi State
100 Butler
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I take a wild guess and say Butler is now higher than 100.
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It seems that Chico likes to go away from the topic.
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It seems that Chico likes to go away from the topic.
I was answering JDuq's question.
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I was answering JDuq's question.
Actually, the link below answers JDuq's question. Marquette comes in at #17 on a list made in August 2012.
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series)
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Actually, the link below answers JDuq's question. Marquette comes in at #17 on a list made in August 2012.
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/50-in-50-series)
Fair enough...I was expanding on his question since ESPN only did top 50 and Street and Smith did top 100.
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Fair enough...I was expanding on his question since ESPN only did top 50 and Street and Smith did top 100.
Or, being a conspiracy theorist, you could say you used a list that better suited your point. Or again, maybe you just needed a longer list so Dayton could feel included. That was nice of you.