Dwight Buycks to MU!!

[Untucked]

Just remember everyone, Murffieus is THE expert on high school prospects. He was the one who said Keaton Nankivil was the greatest prospect in the Wisconsin high school basketball history. That's was dead on.

[Murffieus]

You talk like he was a flop-----well he was Gatorade and Wisconsin Coaches Mr BB for the State of Wisconsin.
TC saw his potential and really went after him-----yet he didn't make even a pass at Maymon. That should tell you something.

We haven't heard from Nankivil yet in Div 1------I wouldn't be so condescending toward him!

BTW----what does that have to do with Bucks trey shooting-----or lack of it!

[Marquette84]

If Bucycks had been playing against the bigger quicker bodies THIS YEAR in the BE, he certainly would have been defended better than in JUCO ball. So his 26% trey shooting percentage would certainly drop----common sense. I throw out 15% to 20% as an estimate. Now he may improve in the future (can't get much morse on treys)----but that's the way things stand right NOW.

As I suspected, an fact-free claim, completely unsubstantiated by evidence.

In reality, if you check the shooting percentages of the JUCO players who played in the Big East last season, some improved from their JUCO days, some got worse, some stayed about the same.


The heart of the false argument lies in this statement:
***If Bucycks had been playing against the bigger quicker bodies THIS YEAR in the BE, he certainly would have been defended better than in JUCO ball.


1.  Buycks would also certainly be surrounded by better players on a Big East team, which means he might not have drawn the top defender.  In Juco, he's the best person on his team (and probably in his league).  In the Big East, he's just another player.  He's not going to draw the primary attention as he does at the JUCO level.

2.  Big East players are not all faster than the fastest JUCO, nor are they all bigger than the biggest JUCO.  That's just a fact.  Sometimes the Big East players are there for their offense (ie Diener, Novak).  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there were some better defenders in Juco than Travis Diener or Steve Novak were in the Big East.

3.  Defense tends to be the great equalizer--after all, Bob Dukeit coached one of the best defenses in the NCAA.  In the NCAA this year, teams like VCU, Stephen F Austin and Sam Houston State shared top 20 FG% defense honors with Georgetown and Memphis and Texas.  It is by no means assured that a Big East team plays better defense simply because it's in the Big East.

[oldwarrior81]

here are the numbers of JUSTIN JOHNSON
6-6 190 played at Tyler JC and then played for Iowa the past few years.
Although this may apply more to Butler/Fulce than it does Buycks, but there wasn't any drop in 3pt%

Tyler   -------
2005   42% fg, 34% 3pt, 61% ft, 5.0 reb, 14.5 pts
Iowa   -------
2007   39% fg, 45% 3pt, 71% ft, 2.3 reb,  5.4 pts
2008   36% fg, 35% 3pt, 74% ft, 4.9 reb, 11.8 pts

[Wareagle]

You talk like he was a flop-----well he was Gatorade and Wisconsin Coaches Mr BB for the State of Wisconsin.
TC saw his potential and really went after him-----yet he didn't make even a pass at Maymon. That should tell you something.

We'll never know for sure, but one possible reason that Maymon received little interest pre-Williams was that Jamil Wilson's commitment was signed, sealed, and delivered when TC was still the head coach here.

[MarkMiller]

Murf ... you're wrong again ... I personally saw Maymon at two games last year and was at the Al when he was in for an unofficial visit to Marquette last summer. True, Crean did not pursue Maymon the past six months, but to say he didn't even "make a pass" at him is dead wrong.

[detroitwarrior]

Per Wareagle's comment that Jamil Wilson's commitment was signed,sealed and delivered when TC was coach, is that accurate and by extension does that mean that Wilson will logically follow TC to Indiana given that Duke and MSU are apparently recuriting him hard? I can't tell if Wareagle was being serious or sarcastic  and am not in the loop regarding his recruiting pre-Buzz.

[ecompt]

Murff, if Nankovil was so good, how come Dracula kept him nailed to the bench when Bucky was getting its ass kicked by GM in the tourney?

[nola03]

Per Wareagle's comment that Jamil Wilson's commitment was signed,sealed and delivered when TC was coach, is that accurate and by extension does that mean that Wilson will logically follow TC to Indiana given that Duke and MSU are apparently recuriting him hard? I can't tell if Wareagle was being serious or sarcastic  and am not in the loop regarding his recruiting pre-Buzz.

A lot of people felt that Wilson was thisclose to a commit so long as Crean stayed. Getting a player of that potential (local kid no less which is very, very important to some people) would have been a signature moment for the program in the Big East and adding him to a talented guard corps with Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams would have set MU up for a very nice future.

People know more then I but I don't think Wilson took too kindly to Crean's way of departure. As a result, he'll keep an eye on the local school, though we aren't much of an option after taking Maymon's commit, but when it comes down to it he'll choose Michigan State. I think he'll be a good one.

[detroitwarrior]

Thanks NOLA....I remember being at Marquette when Joe Wolf tantalised us but ended up going to North Carolina. Izzo usually keeps a scholly open just in case so MSU is probably one of the few programs that can afford to wait until next March for Jamil's decision.

[MUFan71]

Thanks NOLA....I remember being at Marquette when Joe Wolf tantalised us but ended up going to North Carolina. Izzo usually keeps a scholly open just in case so MSU is probably one of the few programs that can afford to wait until next March for Jamil's decision.

 Agreed but MU does not have that luxury. If we wait and don't get him what are our options?

[Murffieus]

SJS/84 ----- What do you think the score would be if a mid range BE team like Syracuse would have played Buyck's
had played JUCO team -----I think a good estimate would be Syracuse 110 & Buycks JUCOs 40. Now why would Bucyks JUCOs only get 40 points------it's because the bigger, faster, stronger more talented bodies of the Syracuse players would have forced the Indian Hills players out of their comfort zone when attempting a shot and therefore destroyed their shooting percentages.

[Murffieus]

Murff, if Nankovil was so good, how come Dracula kept him nailed to the bench when Bucky was getting its ass kicked by GM in the tourney?

Can't answer that----but I do know that you will be seeing a lot of MR Nankivil this upcoming year. Crean didn't bust his balls going after him for a lack of good reason. He was Crean's #1 target.

[Murffieus]

Murf ... you're wrong again ... I personally saw Maymon at two games last year and was at the Al when he was in for an unofficial visit to Marquette last summer. True, Crean did not pursue Maymon the past six months, but to say he didn't even "make a pass" at him is dead wrong.

Mark, why do you come down on me so condescendingly-----I didn't show any disrespect toward you did I?

[Marquette84]

SJS/84 ----- What do you think the score would be if a mid range BE team like Syracuse would have played Buyck's
had played JUCO team -----I think a good estimate would be Syracuse 110 & Indian Hills 40. Now why would Indian Hills only get 40 points------it's because the bigger, faster, stronger more talented bodies of the Syracuse players would have forced the Indian Hills players out of their comfort zone when attempting a shot and therefore destroyed their shooting percentages.

First, you're wrong about Big East teams being filled with bigger/faster players.  Jucos aren't filled with low-talent, undersized players--they are filled with players who didn't qualify for D1 out of HS.  Many of them are just as big and just as fast.  Your very premise is wrong.  Indian Hills may not be Big East caliber, but they certainly would hold their own in the Southern, MAC, Summit or Southland conferences. 

Second, your comparison about Syracuse playing Indian Hills is stupid--they're not going to play Indian Hills--=they're going to play a MU lineup that includes Buycks, Erik Williams, Jeronne Maymon, , Trevor Mbaakwe and Lazar Hayward.  I doubt that lineup only scores 40--and I bet that Buycks manages to get as many open shots as he did when his supporting cast wasn't quite the same calibre.

And Syracuse is probably the worst matchup--Buycks is would be both taller and faster than the starting backcourts of just about any other Big East team. 

And of course the supporting cast at MU will be quite a bit more talented than the supporting cast at Indian Hills.  Syracuse couldn't afford to double team Buycks because there will be another player on the roster.

But the bottom line is that you can't back up your claim that players drop 10 points on their shooting average when they move from Juco to D1.  I asked a simple question--who are you basing that on--and you can't name one player who has dropped from 26% to 15% three point shooting.  Not one.

[Murffieus]

SJS/84----I've seen JUCO BB and it's nothing more than playground BB. It's run and gun with very little defense. That's why they have trouble fitting in ----in their first year of Div 1 BB----they have no grounding in fundamental BB.

The best JUCO team in the nation wouldn't win a game in the BE!

Syracuse zones and Buycks can't shoot so where is he going to get his points?.

What I'm saying is that if buycks or anyone else can only shoot 26% on treys in JUCO-----against the bigger, faster, stronger, and above all more talented bodies of BE players would take Indian Hill players out of their comfort zone on shots forcing them off balance-----defense does make a difference-----ask Kobe about that as the Celtics kept him completely to the outside in the championship series-------whereas he had been able to get inside all season long at will.

[detroitwarrior]

Speaking for myself, I will wait until the 2009 season and Bucks actually plays against Big East competition before I make judgments that "he can't shoot" in June 2008 or that the JUCOS that have been recruited won't be able to contribute on this team.

[Murffieus]

I didn't say they wouldn't contribute---------I sad they would underachieve expectations their first year.

[Marquette84]

SJS/84----I've seen JUCO BB and it's nothing more than playground BB. It's run and gun with very little defense. That's why they have trouble fitting in ----in their first year of Div 1 BB----they have no grounding in fundamental BB.

Well, I see you've moved on to try another approach.  You initially attempted to argue that JUCOs were smaller and not as quick as the average player in the Big East.  It took me about a minute to look at BE rosters to see that Buycks is no smaller than most of the Big East backcourts, and aside from Syracuse, probably not slower either.

Instead of admitting that point, you move on to the style of play.

Well let me ask you what in the sam hell does playground/run and gun basketball have to do with a player's size or quickness? 

Obviously I caught you in a lie, and you're trying to shift the debate to avoid admitting that I'm right--that most guards in the BE are in the 5-11 to 6-4 range, which means that Buycks is going to be at the top end of that range.


Now, let me point out that your attempt to shift the subject actually UNDERMINES your case.  Buycks shot 26% on threes in playground, run and gun offense.  What do you think will happen when his coach is running a structured offense DESIGNED TO GET AN OPEN LOOK?  Will the % drop?  Hardly--its going to improve.

The best JUCO team in the nation wouldn't win a game in the BE!

So what?

Go back and read what I said in the last post on this subject.  You might be surprised to learn that Buycks' Indian Hills teammates won't be with him at MU--he'll be surrounded by Maymon, Hayward, Mbakwe, et. al. 

Apples and Oranges, I would say.

Syracuse zones and Buycks can't shoot so where is he going to get his points?.

Easy.

Against DePaul, South Florida, Georgetown, Providence, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, St. John's, Notre Dame, Rutgers, UConn, Seton Hall, Louisville, Villanova and West Virginia.

What I'm saying is that if buycks or anyone else can only shoot 26% on treys in JUCO-----against the bigger, faster, stronger, and above all more talented bodies of BE players would take Indian Hill players out of their comfort zone on shots forcing them off balance

Well we're not talking about Indian Hill players in general, are we?  We're talking about ONE specific player. 

And I'm saying is that you're wrong.  Buycks is neither smaller, slower, weaker NOR less talented.  He simply didn't have the qualifications out of HS--THAT is why HE is at Indian Hills.

Implying that he's smaller, slower, or weaker because you've seen other Juco teams play is about the most inane thing you've said.  That would be like saying you saw Bob Dukiet coach at MU, and using that to conclude that Al McGuire is a lousy coach. 

I don't know which JUCO teams you've seen, but we're not talking about any of them--or even Indian Hill


BTW, I'm still waiting for you to cite the examples of players who dropped 10% points transferring from JUCO to D1.  It's obvious you didn't have any in mind when you said that typically happens.

Then again, I already can prove you're wrong--I've checked the Big East for the last three years, and frankly, some players improve their shooting, some players decline and some stay about the same. 

[bilsu]

I think the statement that JC ball is nothing but run and gun, proves my point I made several posts above. That point was that Buycks will be much better coached at MU.

[Murffieus]

SJS/84-----you admit that indian Hills wouldn't win a game in the BE----ask yourself why not-----it's because BE players are bigger, stronger, quicker, and more talented and would take Indian Hill shooters out of their comfort zone forcing off balance shots resulting meager shooting percentage.

Meanwhile on offense the skill level of BE players would overwhelm Indian Hill's capability to defend.

[Murffieus]

I think the statement that JC ball is nothing but run and gun, proves my point I made several posts above. That point was that Buycks will be much better coached at MU.

You mean you hope Buycks will be "much better coached at MU"----that's far from a given, IMO.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You mean you hope Buycks will be "much better coached at MU"----that's far from a given, IMO.

I really hate to get in this argument... but you said that Juco is all run and gun and basically streetball.

A big east program is certainly going to be better coached than that.

[Marquette84]

SJS/84-----you admit that indian Hills wouldn't win a game in the BE----ask yourself why not-----it's because BE players are bigger, stronger, quicker, and more talented and would take Indian Hill shooters out of their comfort zone forcing off balance shots resulting meager shooting percentage.

Meanwhile on offense the skill level of BE players would overwhelm Indian Hill's capability to defend.

As I said before, I don't care about the rest of the IHCC roster--I am only interested in ONE specific player. 

Buycks is neither smaller, slower, weaker NOR less talented than your typical BE guard.  He simply didn't requirements out of HS--THAT is why HE is at Indian Hills.

Every time I bring up Buycks, you try to shift the discussion to how the entire IHCC team would fare in the BE.   

Would it be too much to ask that you name the JUCO players who dropped 10 points shooting when they moved on to D1? 

Or will you just admit the blatantly obvious point that you just made this up--you know it's not true, and you're hoping beyond hope that you can get me to change the topic.

[Murffieus]

Ididn't say Bucyks would drop 10 poits shooting moving from JUCO to the BE-----what I did say is that if he had played BE BB this past year his trey shooting percentage would have been between 15 & 20 %.

Hopefully he will improve his perimeter shooting, but don't expect much his first year at MU.