2014 MLB Thread & Pissing Match

[Benny B]

Let me know when he starts to hit without PEDs

Here's a brain buster... does a PED have to "enhance performance" in order to be a PED? 

If so, why are amphetamines (which are clinically proven to enhance performance) not considered a PED under MLB's policy?

Is it possible that some PEDs don't actually make you stronger or enhance your performance, but simply help you recover from an injury faster?  In which case, wouldn't a "post-PED" decline in statistics be more accurately attributable to the happenstance of injury.

[wadesworld]

Here's a brain buster... does a PED have to "enhance performance" in order to be a PED? 

If so, why are amphetamines (which are clinically proven to enhance performance) not considered a PED under MLB's policy?

Is it possible that some PEDs don't actually make you stronger or enhance your performance, but simply help you recover from an injury faster?  In which case, wouldn't a "post-PED" decline in statistics be more accurately attributable to the happenstance of injury.

Yes that is possible.  Braun has been using PEDs since college, though.  I guess he could've used them only to help recover from injuries for the past 10 years, but I find it pretty unlikely given that Alex Rodrigeuz was down at The U during Braun's playing days there.  Oh, and Tony Bosh's lab was right across the street from The U.  Do you really believe that Ryan Braun turned to Tony Bosh for some PEDs to help him recover from injury, not to help put up better numbers?  Do you believe any of the players linked to Tony Bosh took PEDs?  Took them to help their numbers and not just to recover from injury?  Again, I think it's absolutely ludicrous if you truly believe Ryan Braun, a person who turned to Tony Bosh, took PEDs only once, happened to get tested at that one moment, had THREE TIMES the level of testosterone in his body that a normal male adult has if he is ONLY using PEDs to overcome an injury, was still taking the PEDs months after returning from the injury, etc., but it was all just a used to overcome an injury.  That makes absolutely 0 sense to me.

I guess this question will simplify the debate:  Do you believe that Ryan Braun will ever be a .310 hitter with 30 home runs again?  And those are on the low end of what he was doing on a yearly basis throughout his professional career up until this season.

[Benny B]

Yes that is possible.  Braun has been using PEDs since college, though.  I guess he could've used them only to help recover from injuries for the past 10 years, but I find it pretty unlikely given that Alex Rodrigeuz was down at The U during Braun's playing days there.  Oh, and Tony Bosh's lab was right across the street from The U.  Do you really believe that Ryan Braun turned to Tony Bosh for some PEDs to help him recover from injury, not to help put up better numbers?  Do you believe any of the players linked to Tony Bosh took PEDs?  Took them to help their numbers and not just to recover from injury?  Again, I think it's absolutely ludicrous if you truly believe Ryan Braun, a person who turned to Tony Bosh, took PEDs only once, happened to get tested at that one moment, had THREE TIMES the level of testosterone in his body that a normal male adult has if he is ONLY using PEDs to overcome an injury, was still taking the PEDs months after returning from the injury, etc., but it was all just a used to overcome an injury.  That makes absolutely 0 sense to me.

I guess this question will simplify the debate:  Do you believe that Ryan Braun will ever be a .310 hitter with 30 home runs again?  And those are on the low end of what he was doing on a yearly basis throughout his professional career up until this season.

I'm not arguing with what you're saying, but I would caution the part about "what he was doing on a yearly basis throughout his professional career up until this season" part... it would probably serve your argument to look only at his professional career.  There are a multitude of guys who put up crazy numbers in the minors and fissiled out in the majors, or at least exponentially more than there are HOFers who put up mediocre numbers in the minors.

I certainly think Braun will have multiple stretches of 20-40 game that would extrapolate into a .300/30/100 season, but I see him as an injury-prone guy who won't stay healthy long enough to post those stats over 162 games.  In other words, if Braun could stay healthy for an entire season, I think he easily puts up a few more .300/30/100 seasons, but I don't think it ever happens again.

[wadesworld]

I'm not arguing with what you're saying, but I would caution the part about "what he was doing on a yearly basis throughout his professional career up until this season" part... it would probably serve your argument to look only at his professional career.  There are a multitude of guys who put up crazy numbers in the minors and fissiled out in the majors, or at least exponentially more than there are HOFers who put up mediocre numbers in the minors.

I certainly think Braun will have multiple stretches of 20-40 game that would extrapolate into a .300/30/100 season, but I see him as an injury-prone guy who won't stay healthy long enough to post those stats over 162 games.  In other words, if Braun could stay healthy for an entire season, I think he easily puts up a few more .300/30/100 seasons, but I don't think it ever happens again.

Fair points.  It's hard to argue with any of that.  Maybe time will tell or maybe we'll never really find out.

[NavinRJohnson]

So the fire Ron Roenicke drum beat seems to be getting a little louder. I think that would just be throwing the baby out with the bath water, but it got me wondering, what can a manager really do? Firing the manager is page 1 of the shake things up play book, but I just don't see that happening, nor should it, so what could RR (or any manager in the same position) actually do to have any sort of meaningful impact in the team?

So I got to thinking more about this, and there is really very little that can be done. There are a couple things I would do today however...

1) With Broxton now on the team, I would publicly demote K-Rod, probably to the 7th inning. Not that I think he's incapable of closing out games necessarily, but it does constitute a fairly bold move that will get some attention.

2) I would put jason Rogers in the lineup at 1B. Why not. I would also consider releasing Mark Reynolds. The guy hasn't had a hit in a month. With expanded rosters there is no real reason to release him, beside a symbolic one. Again however, sometimes there needs to be a sacrificial lamb.

3) If Braun plays, drop him way down in the order....something to the effect of...Gomez, Gennett, LuCroy, ARam, Davis, Rogers, Braun, Segura, P

[BrewCity83]

So I got to thinking more about this, and there is really very little that can be done. There are a couple things I would do today however...

1) With Broxton now on the team, I would publicly demote K-Rod, probably to the 7th inning. Not that I think he's incapable of closing out games necessarily, but it does constitute a fairly bold move that will get some attention.

2) I would put jason Rogers in the lineup at 1B. Why not. I would also consider releasing Mark Reynolds. The guy hasn't had a hit in a month. With expanded rosters there is no real reason to release him, beside a symbolic one. Again however, sometimes there needs to be a sacrificial lamb.

3) If Braun plays, drop him way down in the order....something to the effect of...Gomez, Gennett, LuCroy, ARam, Davis, Rogers, Braun, Segura, P

I like all 3 of these.  Don't release Reynolds, however.  If the changes work and they somehow win enough games to eke into the Wildcard playoff game, you may need Reynolds since Rogers isn't playoff eligible.

[brandx]

So I got to thinking more about this, and there is really very little that can be done. There are a couple things I would do today however...

1) With Broxton now on the team, I would publicly demote K-Rod, probably to the 7th inning. Not that I think he's incapable of closing out games necessarily, but it does constitute a fairly bold move that will get some attention.

2) I would put jason Rogers in the lineup at 1B. Why not. I would also consider releasing Mark Reynolds. The guy hasn't had a hit in a month. With expanded rosters there is no real reason to release him, beside a symbolic one. Again however, sometimes there needs to be a sacrificial lamb.

3) If Braun plays, drop him way down in the order....something to the effect of...Gomez, Gennett, LuCroy, ARam, Davis, Rogers, Braun, Segura, P

Navin, I agree with all three, as well. But I wonder why you want KRod to be publicly demoted. I don't think there is any way for any coach or manager to lose control of his team quicker than when he throws his players under the bus.

[NavinRJohnson]

Navin, I agree with all three, as well. But I wonder why you want KRod to be publicly demoted. I don't think there is any way for any coach or manager to lose control of his team quicker than when he throws his players under the bus.

I'm not saying he has to be a dick about it. I'm just saying tell the media pre-game that Broxton is the closer moving forward. It is a subtle shot across the bow to the rest of the players, and just a little bit of a shake up. KRod deserves a lot of respect, and RR will undoubtedly give it to him, but if the team gets a little twitchy as a result, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

[brandx]

I'm not saying he has to be a dick about it. I'm just saying tell the media pre-game that Broxton is the closer moving forward. It is a subtle shot across the bow to the rest of the players, and just a little bit of a shake up. KRod deserves a lot of respect, and RR will undoubtedly give it to him, but if the team gets a little twitchy as a result, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Cool.

[MU B2002]

I don't think this is right.  Kershaw will face more batters than any batter will have plate appearances.  For you to believe a guy with 1/5th the games played as a position player can win, you would have to believe that he has 5 times the impact on the game he starts than does a position player.  That's not ridiculous when it comes to a starting pitcher who regularly pitches late in games.  I think starters deserve the MVP in extreme cases (Guys like Ron Guidry in 1978, Dwight Gooden in 1985, Pedro Martinez in 1999, none of whom won the award).  Clemens in 1986 and Verlander in 2011 were solid choices.

Relievers/closers should never be considered for the award, as they face maybe 200-300 batters/year.  Not enough impact, but starters, who can face 1,000 hitters a year, are legit to me if they are good enough.  Kershaw is certainly good enough.  The Dodgers are 20-4 (.833) when he starts and 62-59 (.512) when he doesn't.  At that rate that'd be 74-71 and fighting for their playoff lives without him, instead of being comfortably in the playoffs with a 82-63 record.  That's a valuable guy.

+22

[BrewCity83]

Matt Clark and Jason Rogers may be the new duo at 1B.

[wadesworld]

Matt Clark and Jason Rogers may be the new duo at 1B.

Maybe for the rest of the year.  I'm hoping next year they move either Braun or Davis (Braun makes more sense in terms of where they're at in their careers, but Davis is so unbelievably bad in the out field that it'd be hard to keep him there if you're moving an OF to 1B) to 1B and leave the other in the OF along with Parra and Gomez.  Parra, Gomez, Braun, and Davis are 4 of your top 9 guys.  It's better to have all 4 of them on the field at once than to have 3 of them and 1 on the bench while Mark Reynolds goes and hits .190.

Resign Ramirez and the only hole in your lineup next year is Segura in the 8 spot, which is fine as long as his defense is up to what he is capable of.

Broxton is the closer next year, look for a little more bullpen help and see what might be out there in terms of starters.  While the pitching was far better this year, it pales in comparison to the starting rotations of the teams that are going to be in the playoffs.  This is where Braun's contract really screws you over.  You're not going to be able to pay a starter a lot of money for even 4 years, Braun's about to eat up $20 million/year.  Not good.

[buckchuckler]

+22

To me it is just that Stanton is having a season in which he deserves the award as a hitter, as that is where the award primarily goes.

Stanton is leading the league in HR (by 7), RBI, BB, SLG, OPS and TB.  His OBP is just shy of .400, he has 13 SB, and 30 doubles to go along with it.  He is dominating the league on the offensive side. 

I just may be Kershaw's biggest fan outside of LA, he is having a season that is pretty much historic.  With that being said, if I had a vote for MVP, I'd go Stanton 1, Kershaw 2.  If I had votes for Cy Young, I'd vote Kershaw 1,2 and 3. 

[buckchuckler]

As a side note Chris Sale has his ERA for the season below 2.  I know there are a few weeks to go, and his ERA is below 2 by the slimmest margin, but that is dang impressive. 

I think the AL Cy Young is a two man race between Sale and Felix.  I think Felix gets the nod right now because his team in in playoff contention and he has pitched more.  But Sale is something else. 

[CTWarrior]

To me it is just that Stanton is having a season in which he deserves the award as a hitter, as that is where the award primarily goes.

Stanton is leading the league in HR (by 7), RBI, BB, SLG, OPS and TB.  His OBP is just shy of .400, he has 13 SB, and 30 doubles to go along with it.  He is dominating the league on the offensive side. 

I just may be Kershaw's biggest fan outside of LA, he is having a season that is pretty much historic.  With that being said, if I had a vote for MVP, I'd go Stanton 1, Kershaw 2.  If I had votes for Cy Young, I'd vote Kershaw 1,2 and 3. 

I don't disagree with your analysis.  I just disagree with the idea that a pitcher can't be the most valuable player.  I think Stanton and Kershaw are close enough that there isn't a 100% conclusive choice between them.  Kershaw is going to the playoffs which helps him, but Stanton is an everyday player, which helps him, since the writers can still reward Kershaw with a Cy Young.  It looks like Kershaw is only going to have 27 or 28 starts, not the 32 or 33 you usually get from your top starter.  Don't know if that will have an effect on the voting, but I have a feeling that the voting will go the way you said you would vote.

[buckchuckler]

I don't disagree with your analysis.  I just disagree with the idea that a pitcher can't be the most valuable player.  I think Stanton and Kershaw are close enough that there isn't a 100% conclusive choice between them.  Kershaw is going to the playoffs which helps him, but Stanton is an everyday player, which helps him, since the writers can still reward Kershaw with a Cy Young.  It looks like Kershaw is only going to have 27 or 28 starts, not the 32 or 33 you usually get from your top starter.  Don't know if that will have an effect on the voting, but I have a feeling that the voting will go the way you said you would vote.

I guess I'd say if there is a position player having a standout year, the award should go to him.  Just because there is another award to give the pitcher his due recognition.  If there isn't a hitter head and shoulders above the rest, and there is a pitcher who is, I'd say give it to the pitchers. 

[brandx]

I guess I'd say if there is a position player having a standout year, the award should go to him.  Just because there is another award to give the pitcher his due recognition.  If there isn't a hitter head and shoulders above the rest, and there is a pitcher who is, I'd say give it to the pitchers. 

I have never really decided if I liked the Dawson MVP or not. Clearly, the best player. Clearly NOT the most valuable ( since a losing team would still have been a losing team without him.

So, personally, I lean towards Kershaw, but wouldn't be bothered if GianCarlo wins it.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

It certainly looks like Stanton's MVP season is over after that HBP from Fiers.

[4everwarriors]

Maybe for the rest of the year.  I'm hoping next year they move either Braun or Davis (Braun makes more sense in terms of where they're at in their careers, but Davis is so unbelievably bad in the out field that it'd be hard to keep him there if you're moving an OF to 1B) to 1B and leave the other in the OF along with Parra and Gomez.  Parra, Gomez, Braun, and Davis are 4 of your top 9 guys.  It's better to have all 4 of them on the field at once than to have 3 of them and 1 on the bench while Mark Reynolds goes and hits .190.

Resign Ramirez and the only hole in your lineup next year is Segura in the 8 spot, which is fine as long as his defense is up to what he is capable of.

Broxton is the closer next year, look for a little more bullpen help and see what might be out there in terms of starters.  While the pitching was far better this year, it pales in comparison to the starting rotations of the teams that are going to be in the playoffs.  This is where Braun's contract really screws you over.  You're not going to be able to pay a starter a lot of money for even 4 years, Braun's about to eat up $20 million/year.  Not good.

Damn straight on Braun. He put this club in a hole they'll take years to climb outta. He's a hack in the outfield as well. Peddle the cs'er for a box of Cracker Jacks and a used jockstrap, if you can get it.

[wadesworld]

Damn straight on Braun. He put this club in a hole they'll take years to climb outta. He's a hack in the outfield as well. Peddle the cs'er for a box of Cracker Jacks and a used jockstrap, if you can get it.

+1

[ChuckyChip]

He's a hack in the outfield as well.

Agreed. 

I'm a season ticket holder and have seen in person how bad his outfield play has been this year.  Anything hit over his head he just waves at, and he doesn't appear to hustle on balls hit in the corner.  He used to be decent in left field with his speed and arm, but now it looks like he's not that interested - maybe move him to first base next year?

[CTWarrior]

I have never really decided if I liked the Dawson MVP or not. Clearly, the best player. Clearly NOT the most valuable ( since a losing team would still have been a losing team without him.

So, personally, I lean towards Kershaw, but wouldn't be bothered if GianCarlo wins it.

Dawson is often cited as one of the worst MVP choices in history.  He was clearly the guy with the most homers and RBIs (which apparently was all voters cared about that year, as George Bell, another poor choice, won in the AL), but was nothing like the best player.  Forget that he played on a last place team, there is a much better argument that he wasn't one of the top 10 players than that he was the best player (Among the 19 players receiving MVP votes, he was 13th in WAR)

His sole contribution was slugging and he was 6th in the NL in slugging despite playing in the best power and hitting park in the league. 

[CTWarrior]

It certainly looks like Stanton's MVP season is over after that HBP from Fiers.

That was horrible to watch.  What a shame.  Hopefully it won't ruin his career like Tony Conigliaro.  Kershaw missed about the same amount of time at the beginning of the year, but you're right, this tips the scales in Kershaw's favor, assuming he finishes strong.

[GGGG]

I'm not sure I have ever seen two HBP in a row and neither of them being allowed to take first base.  That was very odd.  And the Brewers should have taken Fiers out of the game immediately.  He was not going to be able to continue after that, and the whole mess after the second HBP could have been avoided.

[NavinRJohnson]

Anyone see the marlins broadcast of the whole thing? I don't know who their color analyst is, and I don't care to look it up, but his performance was an absolute embarrassment. Made Hawk Harrelson look sane and rational.