MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: wadesworld on March 19, 2020, 09:51:18 PM
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I've been around for two events in my life that I would consider to be life/world altering events on an international scale. The first was 9/11 and now the coronavirus. When did you come to realize this was going to affect your life in such a big way?
I honestly think for me it was when the ESPN alert came up on my phone last Wednesday afternoon that the Warriors were going to play without fans for the foreseeable future. There had been rumors that type of thing would be happening here, there were videos of soccer games overseas being played like that, but it always felt distant and like it just wouldn't happen here. Once that announcement came out I knew everyone would follow suit and go to fan-less games. I still didn't believe they'd cancel March Madness, suspend the NBA season, etc.
Once the news about Gobert testing positive came out it was clear things were about to change. And boy did they change fast.
Crazy times. With 9/11 it obviously wasn't something you saw developing elsewhere throughout the world first. And, as a middle schooler when that happened, it seemingly didn't affect my life like this. For me, life just went on really. I didn't know any victims or anything like that. I knew it was a very sad and scary thing but my life kind of just went on. With this it is literally changing everyone's daily life, and we have no idea how long this might go on. Wild to think that 10 days ago this felt like a "I know this is out there but it will never get that bad here" to "well, this is life for now" almost overnight.
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Messed up that Gobert's foolishness may have been the spark that made people wake up and pay attention.
What a timeline.
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I'm not sure if this will be life altering like 9/11 was.
Though this may lead to openings such as basic income and universal healthcare.
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I'm not sure if this will be life altering like 9/11 was.
This is going to be worse. A couple weeks after 9/11, people went back to living their lives with some routine.
Maybe I’m overreacting here but I’m not sure what things are going to look like in a month. Or six. Or a year.
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This is going to be worse. A couple weeks after 9/11, people went back to living their lives with some routine.
Maybe I’m overreacting here but I’m not sure what things are going to look like in a month. Or six. Or a year.
Going with Fluffs here. 9/11 is going to seem like a day in history compared to the period of time COVID19 wrecks.
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Oh this is going to be way worse than 9/11.
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Its just a sad deal. Crazy how fast this all went down. I mean we just dont expect things like this to happen anymore. Never crossed my mind my whole life some disease would do this much damage here. The uncertainty is very bothersome. You wonder what this country looks like when we hit 250k confirmed cases.. 1million.. 5 million etc.
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After 9/11...
...I went back to work the next day.
...The NFL and MLB took a week off, but were back with big crowds
...I flew to California about four weeks later
...The Winter Olympics in Salt Lake went on as scheduled.
...No students were sent home. Colleges acted like normal.
...No quarantines. No shelter in place. You could go out to eat.
This is well beyond anything like that.
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Its just a sad deal. Crazy how fast this all went down. I mean we just dont expect things like this to happen anymore. Never crossed my mind my whole life some disease would do this much damage here. The uncertainty is very bothersome. You wonder what this country looks like when we hit 250k confirmed cases.. 1million.. 5 million etc.
I beleive I've typed here before, my friend at HHS in some kind of emergency planning role has been telling me as long as I can remember that a pandemic "will happen" and to "Count on it."
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Its just a sad deal. Crazy how fast this all went down. I mean we just dont expect things like this to happen anymore. Never crossed my mind my whole life some disease would do this much damage here. The uncertainty is very bothersome. You wonder what this country looks like when we hit 250k confirmed cases.. 1million.. 5 million etc.
500% increase in gun background checks. Ammo being bought heavily.
Hope people keep their heads.
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500% increase in gun background checks. Ammo being bought heavily.
Hope people keep their heads.
Yeah, that's a very real concern. Lack of work/huge financial strain/extended isolation plus guns... Not a great combo.
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500% increase in gun background checks. Ammo being bought heavily.
Hope people keep their heads.
Somehow, everything becomes about guns.
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500% increase in gun background checks. Ammo being bought heavily.
Hope people keep their heads.
And folks were worried about toilet paper hoarding.
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This ranks right up there with the days Derrick Wilson played 35 minutes per game, Buzz Williams left, and John Dawson and Deonte Burton transferred from Marquette. 8-)
While I don't think things will return to "normal" in a matter of weeks, I do feel that this will be resolved within three months. This is serious, yet we are taking the appropriate steps to flatten the curve, and do what we can to limit the over-burdening of our hospitals/ICUs - which is the real threat/risk.
Don't want our physicians to be left with having to decide who gets to live and who dies, as has happened in Italy.
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This ranks right up there with the days Derrick Wilson played 35 minutes per game, Buzz Williams left, and John Dawson and Deonte Burton transferred from Marquette. 8-)
While I don't think things will return to "normal" in a matter of weeks, I do feel that this will be resolved within three months. This is serious, yet we are taking the appropriate steps to flatten the curve, and do what we can to limit the over-burdening of our hospitals/ICUs - which is the real threat/risk.
Don't want our physicians to be left with having to decide who gets to live and who dies, as has happened in Italy.
We need to work harder. At this rate, we are effed.
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500% increase in gun background checks. Ammo being bought heavily.
Hope people keep their heads.
Don't worry.
Sure, there has been a 55% increase in violent white nationalist groups in the past 3 years, but don't you worry!
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Back to the subject at hand.
Clearly the most influential events in my life were the assassinations of the Kennedys and MLK when I was a kid. My views on life were formed with these as the backdrop. It informed both my political views and also how we should treat our fellow man.
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This is going to be worse. A couple weeks after 9/11, people went back to living their lives with some routine.
Maybe I’m overreacting here but I’m not sure what things are going to look like in a month. Or six. Or a year.
Outside of NYC and DC, people never changed their daily routine after 9/11. I worked all that day and the next like normal, as did everyone else around here. I attended the memorial for those in my town that died (fortunately only a few and I did not know them). I'm fortunately still working, but from home. I haven't spoken face to face to anyone but my wife the last 4 days. I'm sick of Skype meetings and the telephone and the TV. This already has had a much more profound effect on the average life than 9/11.
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Back to guns ..
I think the probability of a Great Depression is far north of zero. And when you look around and think of what industries are non-essential, just convenience/luxury .. the list is incredibly long. It's going to take years to get so many industries back to pre-Covid levels, and maybe never.
So .. great depression .. massive unemployment .. food lines .. the 80% of the US who have zero savings and get hungry could lead to massive civil unrest. And guess what, lots of people are armed.
I've never owned a firearm, but I don't know how far civilization will break down in that scenario.
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I've never had any interest in owning a gun, but the scenario 'topper laid out is one that has me considering it.
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Back to guns ..
I think the probability of a Great Depression is far north of zero. And when you look around and think of what industries are non-essential, just convenience/luxury .. the list is incredibly long. It's going to take years to get so many industries back to pre-Covid levels, and maybe never.
So .. great depression .. massive unemployment .. food lines .. the 80% of the US who have zero savings and get hungry could lead to massive civil unrest. And guess what, lots of people are armed.
I've never owned a firearm, but I don't know how far civilization will break down in that scenario.
The good news is that we've been running our government for the benefit of the wealthy and corporations for decades. So I don't think the people would be hit very hard by a massive economic disaster.
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Good evening, everybody. This here is Archie Bunker of 704 Hauser Street, veteran of the big war, speaking on behalf of guns for everybody.
Now, question: what was the first thing that the Communists done when they took over Russia? Answer: gun control. And there's a lot of people in this country want to do the same thing to us here in a kind of conspiracy, see.
You take your big international bankers, they want to ... whaddya call ... masticate the people of this here nation like puppets on the wing, and then when they get their guns, turn us over to the Commies.
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I'm not sure if this will be life altering like 9/11 was.
Though this may lead to openings such as basic income and universal healthcare.
It may. The counter argument will be Italy has universal healthcare and they are overrun. UK also does, and they are stretched thin.
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It may. The counter argument will be Italy has universal healthcare and they are overrun. UK also does, and they are stretched thin.
But none of those patients will need to declare bankruptcy due to their treatments.
Universal healthcare isn't a solution to a pandemic.
It's about lowering costs and saving lives - mostly by removing a middle-man whose sole purpose is to make money.
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Back to guns ..
I think the probability of a Great Depression is far north of zero. And when you look around and think of what industries are non-essential, just convenience/luxury .. the list is incredibly long. It's going to take years to get so many industries back to pre-Covid levels, and maybe never.
So .. great depression .. massive unemployment .. food lines .. the 80% of the US who have zero savings and get hungry could lead to massive civil unrest. And guess what, lots of people are armed.
I've never owned a firearm, but I don't know how far civilization will break down in that scenario.
Military will step in before we allow mass rioting and looting..marshall law. Dont disagree about great depression part 2 though. I dont see how its possible were all gonna shut everything down and self quartine for months and months. And some point were just gonna have to try and work before the economy dies beyond repair. I guess an idea is you quartine for x amount of time in order to buy us some time to obtain necessary medical supplies,increase hospital capcity etc, to manage this thing. This is gonna be an absolute s hit show for the history books regardless
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I was just a toddler when JFK was shot, so the most life-altering events I remember are the moon walk (and the space program generally), MU's National Championship (8-)), 9/11 and this. Each one seemed like it would be impossible to top (for good or bad)...until the next one came along. And IMHO this is gonna be more life-altering by a country mile. At the very least, it will change how we deliver healthcare in the US, and will likely usher in transformative changes relative to employee benefits and income stability. And because someone is gonna have to pay for that, those things will likely have an impact on entitlement programs generally, including the sacred cow of Social Security. I have no idea how that all plays out, but I suspect fundamental changes to our healthcare and employment security and benefits systems are gonna be a lot more life-altering than having to go through metal detectors to get on a plane or into a basketball game.
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Military will step in before we allow mass rioting and looting..marshall law.
While that may occur .. that's mostly helpful with groups of people. Imagine one or two, roaming a neighborhood with a gun, demanding food. Military isn't going to be able to stop that. Cops could, but imagine 20 groups doing that over a square mile. Chaos.
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The Only Thing We Have to Fear... Is Fear Itself.
(Franklin Roosevelt, March 4, 1933)
We need to remember that as we deal with the current life altering event.
I don't doubt there are some hot spots and I don't doubt there are some folks particularly vulnerable, such as senior citizens and folks with weakened immune systems. But the longer we shut the country down; the longer we close public places (like parks and beaches); the longer we shut down factories, transport systems and so-called non-essential public services; and, the longer we bunker down in our homes, the more we will inflict long-term damage on ourselves.
The disease is a problem, no doubt. But shutting down the country in fear, hoarding toilet paper and acting like this is the Andromeda Strain will make this a long-term problem. Period.
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The Only Thing We Have to Fear... Is Fear Itself.
(Franklin Roosevelt, March 4, 1933)
We need to remember that as we deal with the current life altering event.
I don't doubt there are some hot spots and I don't doubt there are some folks particularly vulnerable, such as senior citizens and folks with weakened immune systems. But the longer we shut the country down; the longer we close public places (like parks and beaches); the longer we shut down factories, transport systems and so-called non-essential public services; and, the longer we bunker down in our homes, the more we will inflict long-term damage on ourselves.
The disease is a problem, no doubt. But shutting down the country in fear, hoarding toilet paper and acting like this is the Andromeda Strain will make this a long-term problem. Period.
Yeah I don’t think so. It’s been working in other parts of the country. Now we have to see if it continues to work as they open things back up.
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Back to guns ..
I think the probability of a Great Depression is far north of zero.
Topper
What does “far north of zero” mean to you? 5%? 20%? 40%? Honest question.
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Topper
What does “far north of zero” mean to you? 5%? 20%? 40%? Honest question.
My guess? 75%. I am completely petrified of a 15-20% unemployment rate, plus a global recession.
The only thing that saves us is federal action, and .. I'm just not confident in the people running any of that, top to bottom. Even in the best of times an A team would struggle. We're far from that level of competence.
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While that may occur .. that's mostly helpful with groups of people. Imagine one or two, roaming a neighborhood with a gun, demanding food. Military isn't going to be able to stop that. Cops could, but imagine 20 groups doing that over a square mile. Chaos.
Or (worst case scenario here folks) Cops realizing that they have the power to do that sort of thing to take care of themselves and their families first.
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The Only Thing We Have to Fear... Is Fear Itself.
(Franklin Roosevelt, March 4, 1933)
We need to remember that as we deal with the current life altering event.
I don't doubt there are some hot spots and I don't doubt there are some folks particularly vulnerable, such as senior citizens and folks with weakened immune systems. But the longer we shut the country down; the longer we close public places (like parks and beaches); the longer we shut down factories, transport systems and so-called non-essential public services; and, the longer we bunker down in our homes, the more we will inflict long-term damage on ourselves.
The disease is a problem, no doubt. But shutting down the country in fear, hoarding toilet paper and acting like this is the Andromeda Strain will make this a long-term problem. Period.
Hi welcome to two months ago with that hot take.
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My guess? 75%. I am completely petrified of a 15-20% unemployment rate, plus a global recession.
The only thing that saves us is federal action, and .. I'm just not confident in the people running any of that, top to bottom. Even in the best of times an A team would struggle. We're far from that level of competence.
I think your pessimism is way over the top. But if you’re right the long run most humane strategy is perhaps isolating the old folks (like me) as much as is humanly possible and getting the rest of the country back to work as soon as possible.
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While that may occur .. that's mostly helpful with groups of people. Imagine one or two, roaming a neighborhood with a gun, demanding food. Military isn't going to be able to stop that. Cops could, but imagine 20 groups doing that over a square mile. Chaos.
You have a very fertile imagination.
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I think your pessimism is way over the top. But if you’re right the long run most humane strategy is perhaps isolating the old folks (like me) as much as is humanly possible and getting the rest of the country back to work as soon as possible.
But that is already the strategy. We're just not serious about it.
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I'm not sure if this will be life altering like 9/11 was.
Though this may lead to openings such as basic income and universal healthcare.
I sure as hell hope so. It would be the rational response to a wake up call like this. Unfortunately U.S. politics never seem close to rational.
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JFC guys, things are bad but we will all get through it. This is much more likely to bring the country together than it is to tear it apart. Turn off the news, put down the phone, go for a walk, talk to neighbors at a healthy distance. The terrible times will be short lived, the bad times will last somewhat longer but we're going to come through this better.....just f'ing breathe
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JFC guys, things are bad but we will all get through it. This is much more likely to bring the country together than it is to tear it apart.
I doubt it. This is going to amplify the inequities that exist on our society on a number of levels.
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JFC guys, things are bad but we will all get through it. This is much more likely to bring the country together than it is to tear it apart. Turn off the news, put down the phone, go for a walk, talk to neighbors at a healthy distance. The terrible times will be short lived, the bad times will last somewhat longer but we're going to come through this better.....just f'ing breathe
Well said, Eng.
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I am doing all those things, taking walks, playing games, cleaning up. I do limit my news time because, lord, it's awful and getting worse.
I very much hope against hope you are right.
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https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1241446035190358018?s=19
We're going to bail every industry out. And individuals are going to suffer.
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https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1241446035190358018?s=19
We're going to bail every industry out. And individuals are going to suffer.
Yeah this sh*t ain’t making people “come together.”
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Off the top of my head in no order: fall of USSR, creation of EU, NAFTA, 9/11, great recession
In my opinion this does not even hold a candle to 9/11. Literally everything changed. While we went back to school military recruiters showed up every day.
The war on terror still continues to this day and is the longest war in US history. Created Homeland security, changed immigration, Patriot act, increased surveillance and loss of civil liberties. Think about how travelling and entering sporting events have changed. Real ID which is almost finally rolled out was because of 9/11. 9/11 was also supposed to prepare us for anthrax and bio terrorism, which apparently we forgot for this pandemic.
This is a big country and different parts will be impacted more than others. Washington state that was basically the start of the outbreak only closed bars and restaurants last Monday and still does not have a shelter in place. It will be interesting to see the case studies on which areas took the most effective actions. As a whole the country will be fine.
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JFC guys, things are bad but we will all get through it. This is much more likely to bring the country together than it is to tear it apart. Turn off the news, put down the phone, go for a walk, talk to neighbors at a healthy distance. The terrible times will be short lived, the bad times will last somewhat longer but we're going to come through this better.....just f'ing breathe
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Off the top of my head in no order: fall of USSR, creation of EU, NAFTA, 9/11, great recession
In my opinion this does not even hold a candle to 9/11. Literally everything changed.
Literally very little changed. Most people's lives were no different a month later.
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Literally very little changed. Most people's lives were no different a month later.
Let me know in a month if most people's lives are different. I don't they will be impacted 20 years later like 9/11.
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Let me know in a month if most people's lives are different. I don't they will be impacted 20 years later like 9/11.
I will.
And outside of taking off my shoes at the airport, 9/11 isn't impacting my life very much right now.
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I don't mean this in a pejorative sense, but if you are in the "government should save us" crowd, I can see why you are panicked. Governments generally and our government specifically is not designed to solve problems fast or efficiently. Regardless of the orange dope in office, a federal response was going to be slow. Companies, individuals, local governments are all going to be faster and more agile than federal government bureaucracy.
I work in the manufacturing sector, starting the week before and really ramping up this past week, manufacturing pivoted. Medical suppliers went into 24x7 operation (GEHC is going to make 6000 ventilators in the next 4 weeks at one plant alone), PPE production capacity has tripled in a week, and other necessary supplies and capacity is expanding. The food supply chain is stable as is the public infrastructure, so any shortages are only because of panic hoarding that is unnecessary. We are going to flatten the curve(perhaps not as fast as we'd like) but we will also double our critical healthcare capacity in 4-6 weeks(Italy definitely can't do that). Further jobs will be evolving, Amazon is expanding as are critical manufacturing, there will be hardships no doubt but all is not lost in the short term.
Long term, this event will turn over political leadership....national leaders too long in the tooth with fail, others will step into the breach and work the problem. The working class will recognize its power to control it's own fate. Manufacturing will recognize the need to shorten and diversify the supply chain meaning some manufacturing jobs will come back. There will be the destruction of small businesses and lost eateries, etc but others will rise to replace them. There will be consolidation in business but there will be expansion as new business models replace old. Some will lose in the change, some will tread water, some will win....but we will survive. Anti-Virals will be developed as will vaccines. Treatment protocols will be available within 6 months that will save people otherwise lost now. Additionally we will very likely choice to(or have to) withdraw from our imperial adventures abroad....we will step back from Afghanistan and Iraq amongst others, reducing our military expenditure at a critical moment when we need to focus at home, largely because we can.
Yes income inequality and the "unfairness" of the system will evolve but huge paradigm shifting events like this have a way of repressing the balance.
The next 6 to 18 months will be difficult at times but I have zero doubt we'll come out better than we went in.
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Back to guns ..
I think the probability of a Great Depression is far north of zero. And when you look around and think of what industries are non-essential, just convenience/luxury .. the list is incredibly long. It's going to take years to get so many industries back to pre-Covid levels, and maybe never.
So .. great depression .. massive unemployment .. food lines .. the 80% of the US who have zero savings and get hungry could lead to massive civil unrest. And guess what, lots of people are armed.
I've never owned a firearm, but I don't know how far civilization will break down in that scenario.
They're only buying all of the guns to protect themselves.
U.S Constitution:
rtjrsjstyhwryrnteruerfturyuere
2nd Amendment
dghtudtududyjudym
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I will.
And outside of taking off my shoes at the airport, 9/11 isn't impacting my life very much right now.
Precheck, man
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I doubt it. This is going to amplify the inequities that exist on our society on a number of levels.
Right now we live in a country where most have a lot and some have a lot more (too much?). Some of the people with a lot hate the people with a lot more. If enough of the people who have a lot and are already angry suddenly don’t have a lot anymore you’re right, things could get ugly.
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Good stuff, eng.
I think you're correct on the end-game. But I think getting there is going to be brutal.
I also happen to believe that the recovery from this will be very good for the wealthy and not-so-good for the middle class. Similar to the recovery from 2008. THAT'S the part that worries me the most.
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Right now we live in a country where most have a lot and some have a lot more (too much?). Some of the people with a lot hate the people with a lot more. If enough of the people who have a lot and are already angry suddenly don’t have a lot anymore you’re right, things could get ugly.
I had to read this a few times...but yeah.
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I don't mean this in a pejorative sense, but if you are in the "government should save us" crowd, I can see why you are panicked. Governments generally and our government specifically is not designed to solve problems fast or efficiently. Regardless of the orange dope in office, a federal response was going to be slow. Companies, individuals, local governments are all going to be faster and more agile than federal government bureaucracy.
I work in the manufacturing sector, starting the week before and really ramping up this past week, manufacturing pivoted. Medical suppliers went into 24x7 operation (GEHC is going to make 6000 ventilators in the next 4 weeks at one plant alone), PPE production capacity has tripled in a week, and other necessary supplies and capacity is expanding. The food supply chain is stable as is the public infrastructure, so any shortages are only because of panic hoarding that is unnecessary. We are going to flatten the curve(perhaps not as fast as we'd like) but we will also double our critical healthcare capacity in 4-6 weeks(Italy definitely can't do that). Further jobs will be evolving, Amazon is expanding as are critical manufacturing, there will be hardships no doubt but all is not lost in the short term.
Long term, this event will turn over political leadership....national leaders too long in the tooth with fail, others will step into the breach and work the problem. The working class will recognize its power to control it's own fate. Manufacturing will recognize the need to shorten and diversify the supply chain meaning some manufacturing jobs will come back. There will be the destruction of small businesses and lost eateries, etc but others will rise to replace them. There will be consolidation in business but there will be expansion as new business models replace old. Some will lose in the change, some will tread water, some will win....but we will survive. Anti-Virals will be developed as will vaccines. Treatment protocols will be available within 6 months that will save people otherwise lost now. Additionally we will very likely choice to(or have to) withdraw from our imperial adventures abroad....we will step back from Afghanistan and Iraq amongst others, reducing our military expenditure at a critical moment when we need to focus at home, largely because we can.
Yes income inequality and the "unfairness" of the system will evolve but huge paradigm shifting events like this have a way of repressing the balance.
The next 6 to 18 months will be difficult at times but I have zero doubt we'll come out better than we went in.
I like your optimism and I hope you are correct.
Not so sure about it bringing us closer together or about it leading to something better for most of those who are not already economically secure, but I hope you're right.
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I like your optimism and I hope you are correct.
Not so sure about it bringing us closer together or about it leading to something better for most of those who are not already economically secure, but I hope you're right.
I actually think this event will drive the case for universal income (inversely I think you'll see universal healthcare be pushed further away). Somewhere Andrew Yang is smiling a little.
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I actually think this event will drive the case for universal income (inversely I think you'll see universal healthcare be pushed further away). Somewhere Andrew Yang is smiling a little.
Interesting.
I don't see how, politically, either of those things would happen. Even if Dems win the presidency, the Senate and the House, they saw what happened after they pushed through the watered-down version of Obamacare in 2010. And if Republicans control any of those three branches, universal income will be a non-starter. But hey ... maybe I'm wrong.
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Interesting.
I don't see how, politically, either of those things would happen. Even if Dems win the presidency, the Senate and the House, they saw what happened after they pushed through the watered-down version of Obamacare in 2010. And if Republicans control any of those three branches, universal income will be a non-starter. But hey ... maybe I'm wrong.
Who will foot the bill for the medical care for the thousands of Americans who don't have insurance?
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Who will foot the bill for the medical care for the thousands of Americans who don't have insurance?
Who indeed.
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Who indeed.
Everyone, of course. Universal health care that we pay for, but we will still bankrupt people.
Interesting to think about.
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Everyone, of course. Universal health care that we pay for, but we will still bankrupt people.
You're preaching to the choir.
I am a big fan of (at the very least) the option for folks 50+ being able to buy into Medicare. It would strengthen Medicare (more $$$ coming in from younger, presumably healthier people), make the country more healthy overall, prevent some healthcare-related insolvencies, be a good next step up the healthcare-is-a-right ladder, etc.
Something like it was supposed to be part of the ACA but it did not receive quite enough support. I haven't heard a single viable argument against it.
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You're preaching to the choir.
I am a big fan of (at the very least) the option for folks 50+ being able to buy into Medicare. It would strengthen Medicare (more $$$ coming in from younger, presumably healthier people), make the country more healthy overall, prevent some healthcare-related insolvencies, be a good next step up the healthcare-is-a-right ladder, etc.
Something like it was supposed to be part of the ACA but it did not receive quite enough support. I haven't heard a single viable argument against it.
Medicare is kind of a sham....private insurance is so expensive in part because medicare artificially sets rates under that of the market and providers then "overcharge" the private insurance to make up the difference. If health insurance were truly marketized (open market for insurance and employers were not allowed to provide health insurance) with a government provider option as well as for profit provider options we'd see health care costs decrease significantly.
If you went to a UBI and eliminated nearly all other entitlements there would be significant cost efficiency as well. Maybe we'll start thinking about these things when the dust settles.
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Everyone, of course. Universal health care that we pay for, but we will still bankrupt people.
Interesting to think about.
I never really thought about the latter aspect you post above. Each and everyone of us foot the bill for people who ultimately can't pay for medical emergencies that befall them. So the hospitals win. Yet, you are right, despite this, we pile on the burden of bankruptcy on the person who did nothing wrong but get ill. Just a terrible though.
Also, if you think about inheritance. For the middle class, the idea of an inheritance is gone. Medical care and nursing homes will take every last penny they had worked so hard to save their entire life, the only people getting an inheritance is the super rich.
Our system is entirely broken.
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I think your pessimism is way over the top. But if you’re right the long run most humane strategy is perhaps isolating the old folks (like me) as much as is humanly possible and getting the rest of the country back to work as soon as possible.
Or .. my pessimism isn't even deep enough:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-22/fed-s-bullard-says-u-s-jobless-rate-may-soar-to-30-in-2q
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis President James Bullard predicted the U.S. unemployment rate may hit 30% in the second quarter because of shutdowns to combat the coronavirus, with an unprecedented 50% drop in gross domestic product.
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I never really thought about the latter aspect you post above. Each and everyone of us foot the bill for people who ultimately can't pay for medical emergencies that befall them. So the hospitals win. Yet, you are right, despite this, we pile on the burden of bankruptcy on the person who did nothing wrong but get ill. Just a terrible though.
Also, if you think about inheritance. For the middle class, the idea of an inheritance is gone. Medical care and nursing homes will take every last penny they had worked so hard to save their entire life, the only people getting an inheritance is the super rich.
Our system is entirely broken.
I don't disagree with the premise that the system is broken. But "the hospitals win?" Most hospitals are barely (if at all) staying in the black, and it's getting harder as the population ages and Medicare doesn't cover the full cost of care.
IMHO, if you want to find the HUGE profits in healthcare, look to the drug and device companies, not the hospitals.
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I don't disagree with the premise that the system is broken. But "the hospitals win?" Most hospitals are barely (if at all) staying in the black, and it's getting harder as the population ages and Medicare doesn't cover the full cost of care.
IMHO, if you want to find the HUGE profits in healthcare, look to the drug and device companies, not the hospitals.
Well, and the insurance companies, but yes.
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I don't disagree with the premise that the system is broken. But "the hospitals win?" Most hospitals are barely (if at all) staying in the black, and it's getting harder as the population ages and Medicare doesn't cover the full cost of care.
IMHO, if you want to find the HUGE profits in healthcare, look to the drug and device companies, not the hospitals.
Yes and no. Hospitals are doing about as well as they always have. However, administrators and administration costs have skyrocketed since healthcare became a corporate venture.
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Yes and no. Hospitals are doing about as well as they always have. However, administrators and administration costs have skyrocketed since healthcare became a corporate venture.
Administrators and administration costs have risen as Medicare and Medicaid rules have become increasingly byzantine.
And FWIW...some people try to blame the complexities on "the insurance companies," but that's a red herring. Figuring out the Medicare billing and coding requirements is infinitely more time-consuming than doing the same for commercial insurers.
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Medicare is kind of a sham....private insurance is so expensive in part because medicare artificially sets rates under that of the market and providers then "overcharge" the private insurance to make up the difference. If health insurance were truly marketized (open market for insurance and employers were not allowed to provide health insurance) with a government provider option as well as for profit provider options we'd see health care costs decrease significantly.
If you went to a UBI and eliminated nearly all other entitlements there would be significant cost efficiency as well. Maybe we'll start thinking about these things when the dust settles.
Hmmm.
Most hospitals are barely (if at all) staying in the black
I don't know about "most," and I'm far to lazy to look it up.
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
Here in NC, the largest employer is Atrium Health, a ginormous, "not-for-profit" health care system anchored by one huge hospital and numerous satellite hospitals. Over the last couple decades, they swallowed up clinics and small hospitals, used their clout to lure physicians out of private practice, etc.
They are "not for profit" because they put all of what would be profits back into the system. They build ever more hospitals, clinics, cancer centers, pay their administrators ever more money (I believe they now have 2 dozen executives each making $1 million or more), etc, etc, etc.
Many states have at least one such entity, some have several. Chicago alone has a few.
I do know that lots of rural hospitals can't make ends meet and end up folding ... or getting usurped by the likes of Atrium.
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Here in NC, the largest employer is Atrium Health, a ginormous, "not-for-profit" health care system anchored by one huge hospital and numerous satellite hospitals. Over the last couple decades, they swallowed up clinics and small hospitals, used their clout to lure physicians out of private practice, etc.
They are "not for profit" because they put all of what would be profits back into the system. They build ever more hospitals, clinics, cancer centers, pay their administrators ever more money (I believe they now have 2 dozen executives each making $1 million or more), etc, etc, etc.
Many states have at least one such entity, some have several. Chicago alone has a few.
I do know that lots of rural hospitals can't make ends meet and end up folding ... or getting usurped by the likes of Atrium.
This is what I'm talking about.
Corporate takeover of healthcare.
It hurts the providers and the patients.
And helps ..? C-suite salaries?
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Hmmm.
I don't know about "most," and I'm far to lazy to look it up.
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
Here in NC, the largest employer is Atrium Health, a ginormous, "not-for-profit" health care system anchored by one huge hospital and numerous satellite hospitals. Over the last couple decades, they swallowed up clinics and small hospitals, used their clout to lure physicians out of private practice, etc.
They are "not for profit" because they put all of what would be profits back into the system. They build ever more hospitals, clinics, cancer centers, pay their administrators ever more money (I believe they now have 2 dozen executives each making $1 million or more), etc, etc, etc.
Many states have at least one such entity, some have several. Chicago alone has a few.
I do know that lots of rural hospitals can't make ends meet and end up folding ... or getting usurped by the likes of Atrium.
"Seem to be doing A-OK" is pretty vague. Do you have numbers on which you base this, or are you assuming it based on expansion? Because getting bigger is not the same as getting more profitable.
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Medicare is kind of a sham....private insurance is so expensive in part because medicare artificially sets rates under that of the market and providers then "overcharge" the private insurance to make up the difference. If health insurance were truly marketized (open market for insurance and employers were not allowed to provide health insurance) with a government provider option as well as for profit provider options we'd see health care costs decrease significantly.
If you went to a UBI and eliminated nearly all other entitlements there would be significant cost efficiency as well. Maybe we'll start thinking about these things when the dust settles.
Someone who knows of which he speaks. Correct analysis.
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But none of those patients will need to declare bankruptcy due to their treatments.
Universal healthcare isn't a solution to a pandemic.
It's about lowering costs and saving lives - mostly by removing a middle-man whose sole purpose is to make money.
I am mostly for UHC and bankruptcy protection is a reason. The downside is it trains a society to overuse the system and generally over rely on it. In a case like a pandemic that is not good news. Lower probability of success doctors tend to not pursue. This is happening in Italy now.
A website I find to do an excellent job of presenting th3 pros and cons of issues
https://www.thebalance.com/universal-health-care-4156211
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Medicare is kind of a sham....private insurance is so expensive in part because medicare artificially sets rates under that of the market and providers then "overcharge" the private insurance to make up the difference. If health insurance were truly marketized (open market for insurance and employers were not allowed to provide health insurance) with a government provider option as well as for profit provider options we'd see health care costs decrease significantly.
If you went to a UBI and eliminated nearly all other entitlements there would be significant cost efficiency as well. Maybe we'll start thinking about these things when the dust settles.
So the government would be the only employer to provide health insurance.
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So the government would be the only employer to provide health insurance.
Depends on how you look at it, they would be two different parts of the government.....but in this utopia government employment would be significantly lower across all levels of government
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"Seem to be doing A-OK" is pretty vague. Do you have numbers on which you base this, or are you assuming it based on expansion? Because getting bigger is not the same as getting more profitable.
They're not supposed to be "profitable" at all. They're a not-for-profit hospital system.
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They're not supposed to be "profitable" at all. They're a not-for-profit hospital system.
You don't understand not-for-profit very well, do you?
They are allowed to finish the year in the black, as long as those dollars are not given to owners/shareholders. Most larger healthcare places put any such money into research or education.
For reference, check out IRS Sec. 501(c)(3). You're welcome.
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You don't understand not-for-profit very well, do you?
They are allowed to finish the year in the black, as long as those dollars are not given to owners/shareholders. Most larger healthcare places put any such money into research or education.
For reference, check out IRS Sec. 501(c)(3). You're welcome.
I am quite certain that Atrium Health is raking it in. Its executives certainly are.
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I am quite certain that Atrium Health is raking it in. Its executives certainly are.
Atrium made $5m on revenue less expenses in 2017 (most recent tax year available.) The president made half a mil. The SVP made $400k. Those are the 2 highest paid executives. I'm guessing the doctors belong to a separate organization, as they would be top earners too and aren't listed.
Their total liabilities are $5 on $355m in assets, 2 years in a row. Looks like a pretty well run organization.
I'd find another evil corporation to rail against if i were you. OMB.
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Atrium made $5m on revenue less expenses in 2017 (most recent tax year available.) The president made half a mil. The SVP made $400k. Those are the 2 highest paid executives. I'm guessing the doctors belong to a separate organization, as they would be top earners too and aren't listed.
Their total liabilities are $5 on $355m in assets, 2 years in a row. Looks like a pretty well run organization.
I'd find another evil corporation to rail against if i were you. OMB.
+1. This looks like a pretty lean org, actually. If you're going to call $5M in the black for an organization that employes 65,000 people "raking it in," what would be a responsible net annual revenue?
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+1. This looks like a pretty lean org, actually. If you're going to call $5M in the black for an organization that employes 65,000 people "raking it in," what would be a responsible net annual revenue?
I dont know the ins and outs of hospital balance sheets, so no idea what is responsible net earnings would be.
But 82 thinks they are running a slush fund for the gat cats, which their tax forms clearly shows not to be the case. Maybe Mr. lack of impulse control should do a simple search before throwing chit against the fan.
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Atrium made $5m on revenue less expenses in 2017 (most recent tax year available.) The president made half a mil. The SVP made $400k. Those are the 2 highest paid executives. I'm guessing the doctors belong to a separate organization, as they would be top earners too and aren't listed.
Their total liabilities are $5 on $355m in assets, 2 years in a row. Looks like a pretty well run organization.
I'd find another evil corporation to rail against if i were you. OMB.
Yep. And you would find similar stories if you look into most large healthcare providers. They are expanding as 82 noted, but it isn't because they're flush with cash; it's to find ways to operate more efficiently as reimbursement levels decline. The big profits in healthcare are in the drug and device companies.
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Yep. And you would find similar stories if you look into most large healthcare providers. They are expanding as 82 noted, but it isn't because they're flush with cash; it's to find ways to operate more efficiently as reimbursement levels decline. The big profits in healthcare are in the drug and device companies.
Maybe, but at least they are innovating and bringing new products to market (outside of some bad apples)
If you are looking for someone to blame, What value do health insurance companies add?
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Maybe, but at least they are innovating and bringing new products to market (outside of some bad apples)
If you are looking for someone to blame, What value do health insurance companies add?
Insurance>drugs/devices>hospitals
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Atrium made $5m on revenue less expenses in 2017 (most recent tax year available.) The president made half a mil. The SVP made $400k. Those are the 2 highest paid executives. I'm guessing the doctors belong to a separate organization, as they would be top earners too and aren't listed.
Their total liabilities are $5 on $355m in assets, 2 years in a row. Looks like a pretty well run organization.
I'd find another evil corporation to rail against if i were you. OMB.
I dont know the ins and outs of hospital balance sheets, so no idea what is responsible net earnings would be.
But 82 thinks they are running a slush fund for the gat cats, which their tax forms clearly shows not to be the case. Maybe Mr. lack of impulse control should do a simple search before throwing chit against the fan.
Not sure where you're getting your info on the pay at Atrium, but here's where I'm getting mine:
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article240093133.html
Atrium Health paid top officer Gene Woods nearly $7.3 million in total compensation last year — an increase of about 19% from the year before, according to the hospital system’s compensation disclosure released Friday.
CEO Woods got a base salary of about $2.7 million in 2019, up from $1.7 million the year before.
His 2019 package included a bonus of $2.4 million and about $2.2 million in other benefits.
In 2018, Woods made about $6.1 million in total compensation. The year before, he made about $5.4 million.
The Charlotte-based not-for-profit hospital system said in a statement that compensation of its top 10 executives is equal to less than 1% of total compensation for all employees.
Atrium’s top 10 highest paid executives make more than $26.4 million in total compensation, according to the financial disclosure.
The article includes a PDF of the high-paid executives, released by the hospital system itself. A few years back, the Observer did an award-winning series about both the good and bad at Atrium (then Carolinas Heathcare). I remember one article about even as they were giving their executives 20% raises, they were bankrupting patients who were earning $20K per year. You think that's cool; I think it's not the best, especially for a not-for-profit hospital.
I don't think Atrium is "evil." My wife works for them and they've been an OK employer. Not great, but certainly not bad. They do a lot of charitable work, they are very visible in the community. They recently have stepped up to increase their minimum wage, give better raises to those who aren't executives, and the like. It's progress.
There were many years in which my wife got the highest ratings an RN could possibly get in annual reviews and received a 1.5% raise on her comparatively meager salary while the executives were getting 20% raises on their 7-figure salaries. But that's life in the big city; like everybody else, I fully realize that the rich always get richer.
As far as their financials, I'll take your word for it ... but you were so far off on the executive pay figures that I do wonder a little.
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Maybe, but at least they are innovating and bringing new products to market (outside of some bad apples)
If you are looking for someone to blame, What value do health insurance companies add?
I wasn't looking for anyone to blame; I was showing that 82 was wrong to claim that healthcare providers are some sort of bloated cash cow.
But since you asked...I will begin by agreeing about the innovations by drug and device companies. They most certainly contribute to our society. Still, there are plenty of innovative companies that have far smaller margins than drug and device companies. So maybe they deserve to be rewarded for their innovation...but perhaps not to the point that they are the epicenter of healthcare industry profits.
As for health insurance companies, I am torn. On the one hand, I can see the merit in the argument that just "adding a middleman" seems costly and unnecessary. On the other, I know that my (very large) company tried for many years to administer its own health plan for employees and family members, but found it so costly and difficult that we ultimately hired a health insurance company to do it for us. And as a beneficiary under that plan, I can assure you that they are doing an excellent job.
I also have extensive experience with claims submission to, and administration by, both private insurers and Medicare. And I can tell you unequivocally that private insurers are MUCH more efficient and easy to work with than CMS. From a billing compliance perspective, providers spend an astronomical amount of time trying to navigate the byzantine Medicare guidelines, and only occasionally get into significant tussles with a private insurer. So without getting too political...if we are going to expand Medicare to cover more people, I think our best strategy would be to blow the whole thing up and get some health insurance executives to build a new and better system for everyone.
FWIW, I have been working in the healthcare field for 27 years (most of it in regulatory compliance, interacting with drug and device companies, healthcare insurers and CMS)...but take my $0.02 as you wish.
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Insurance>drugs/devices>hospitals
IMO, the problems are:
Drugs/devices>insurance>hospitals (see above for more detail).
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I wasn't looking for anyone to blame; I was showing that 82 was wrong to claim that healthcare providers are some sort of bloated cash cow.
I did not "claim that healthcare providers are some sort of bloated cash cow."
My exact wording was:
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
Here in NC, the largest employer is Atrium Health, a ginormous, "not-for-profit" health care system anchored by one huge hospital and numerous satellite hospitals. Over the last couple decades, they swallowed up clinics and small hospitals, used their clout to lure physicians out of private practice, etc.
I went on to say that many rural hospitals are having all kinds of troubles.
Every word of all of that is true, and none of it is me claiming what you claim I'm claiming. I don't mind being criticized; like you and everybody else here, I make mistakes sometimes. But at least make the criticism accurate, please.
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Not sure where you're getting your info on the pay at Atrium, but here's where I'm getting mine:
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article240093133.html
Atrium Health paid top officer Gene Woods nearly $7.3 million in total compensation last year — an increase of about 19% from the year before, according to the hospital system’s compensation disclosure released Friday.
CEO Woods got a base salary of about $2.7 million in 2019, up from $1.7 million the year before.
His 2019 package included a bonus of $2.4 million and about $2.2 million in other benefits.
In 2018, Woods made about $6.1 million in total compensation. The year before, he made about $5.4 million.
The Charlotte-based not-for-profit hospital system said in a statement that compensation of its top 10 executives is equal to less than 1% of total compensation for all employees.
Atrium’s top 10 highest paid executives make more than $26.4 million in total compensation, according to the financial disclosure.
The article includes a PDF of the high-paid executives, released by the hospital system itself. A few years back, the Observer did an award-winning series about both the good and bad at Atrium (then Carolinas Heathcare). I remember one article about even as they were giving their executives 20% raises, they were bankrupting patients who were earning $20K per year. You think that's cool; I think it's not the best, especially for a not-for-profit hospital.
I don't think Atrium is "evil." My wife works for them and they've been an OK employer. Not great, but certainly not bad. They do a lot of charitable work, they are very visible in the community. They recently have stepped up to increase their minimum wage, give better raises to those who aren't executives, and the like. It's progress.
There were many years in which my wife got the highest ratings an RN could possibly get in annual reviews and received a 1.5% raise on her comparatively meager salary while the executives were getting 20% raises on their 7-figure salaries. But that's life in the big city; like everybody else, I fully realize that the rich always get richer.
As far as their financials, I'll take your word for it ... but you were so far off on the executive pay figures that I do wonder a little.
Their 2017 form 990. Find it on guidestar.
Maybe they have some other entities where they pay the big bucks.
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Insurance companies aren't exactly blood suckers either. They are absolutely necessary to price risk into the transactions. The health care providing system is lumpy by nature and it takes a lot of effort to address that.
Now, you want to drive efficiencies, remove employers from being providers of insurance so to speak and allow insurances to compete across state lines. You will see a huge consolidation of insurance providers which will enable scale and drive efficiency.
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Their 2017 form 990. Find it on guidestar.
Maybe they have some other entities where they pay the big bucks.
I accept your apology. Have a nice day.
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I did not "claim that healthcare providers are some sort of bloated cash cow."
My exact wording was:
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
Here in NC, the largest employer is Atrium Health, a ginormous, "not-for-profit" health care system anchored by one huge hospital and numerous satellite hospitals. Over the last couple decades, they swallowed up clinics and small hospitals, used their clout to lure physicians out of private practice, etc.
I went on to say that many rural hospitals are having all kinds of troubles.
Every word of all of that is true, and none of it is me claiming what you claim I'm claiming. I don't mind being criticized; like you and everybody else here, I make mistakes sometimes. But at least make the criticism accurate, please.
OK. I hereby criticize you for claiming that our healthcare systems are "doing A-OK."
The systems overall have expended. But as I said in an earlier post, that expansion has been fueled by a need to expand or die, as stagnant overall reimbursement levels, combined with ever more expensive medical equipment and increasingly complicated claims and reimbursement rules, have made it necessary to achieve economies of scale.
Don't believe it?
Thirty hospitals declared for bankruptcy in 2019, amidst a booming economy. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-hospital-financial-woes-unlikely-to-subside-in-2020-2020-1
And it isn't just rural hospitals. It includes Philadelphia's Hahnemann University Hospital, a teaching hospital that includes a level 1 trauma center. https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/philadelphia-us-hospitals-closing-hahnemann
And even hospitals that don't declare bankruptcy and/or close their doors struggle. Here is an article citing an analysis by MedPAC (a nonpartisan legislative agency that advises Congress about the Medicare program), stating that even the most efficient hospitals operate in the red on Medicare patients. https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/efficient-hospitals-operate-2-margins-medicare-payments-medpac-reports That's right - even "the most efficient" struggle to survive, according to a Congressional advisory group.
That doesn't sound so A-OK to me....
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Taking this away from discussion on hospitals. One possible outcome from this that would be life-altering is a great shift towards Nationalism around the world.
We already saw this emerging around the world for the past several years. But now, people are looking at outsiders as causing the spread of this disease, and reliant on other economies as a causative agent in economic problems from the coronavirus.
We will likely see a further shift then in excluding outsiders and a breakdown in the world economy in favor of national economies.
Some are in favor of this, but everytime we have seen a rise in nationalism, it has been followed by global war.
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OK. I hereby criticize you for claiming that our healthcare systems are "doing A-OK."
The systems overall have expended. But as I said in an earlier post, that expansion has been fueled by a need to expand or die, as stagnant overall reimbursement levels, combined with ever more expensive medical equipment and increasingly complicated claims and reimbursement rules, have made it necessary to achieve economies of scale.
Don't believe it?
Thirty hospitals declared for bankruptcy in 2019, amidst a booming economy. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-hospital-financial-woes-unlikely-to-subside-in-2020-2020-1
And it isn't just rural hospitals. It includes Philadelphia's Hahnemann University Hospital, a teaching hospital that includes a level 1 trauma center. https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/philadelphia-us-hospitals-closing-hahnemann
And even hospitals that don't declare bankruptcy and/or close their doors struggle. Here is an article citing an analysis by MedPAC (a nonpartisan legislative agency that advises Congress about the Medicare program), stating that even the most efficient hospitals operate in the red on Medicare patients. https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/efficient-hospitals-operate-2-margins-medicare-payments-medpac-reports That's right - even "the most efficient" struggle to survive, according to a Congressional advisory group.
That doesn't sound so A-OK to me....
Again, what I said was:
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
I stand by that, especially if Atrium is representative of most others of their size and scope. Otherwise, I didn't say most of the stuff you and Ziggy claim I did, nor did I declare Atrium or any other healthcare system was "evil." And I provided data to back my discussion of executive pay at Atrium.
Absolutely, I will acknowledge that many hospitals, clinics and health care providers are doing less than OK. That surprises me, and saddens me, about the Philly hospital.
I hope that's enough to satisfy y'all. If not, well, that's A-OK, too.
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Taking this away from discussion on hospitals. One possible outcome from this that would be life-altering is a great shift towards Nationalism around the world.
We already saw this emerging around the world for the past several years. But now, people are looking at outsiders as causing the spread of this disease, and reliant on other economies as a causative agent in economic problems from the coronavirus.
We will likely see a further shift then in excluding outsiders and a breakdown in the world economy in favor of national economies.
Some are in favor of this, but everytime we have seen a rise in nationalism, it has been followed by global war.
It's faux/selective nationalism though.
Poor Chinese student entering the country? Heck no!
Chinese billionaire entering the country? Where do you want the red carpet?
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Again, what I said was:
However, I will say that the large "health care systems," many of which began as hospitals (or groups of them) and have morphed into, well, "health care systems," seem to be doing A-OK.
I stand by that, especially if Atrium is representative of most others of their size and scope. Otherwise, I didn't say most of the stuff you and Ziggy claim I did, nor did I declare Atrium or any other healthcare system was "evil." And I provided data to back my discussion of executive pay at Atrium.
Absolutely, I will acknowledge that many hospitals, clinics and health care providers are doing less than OK. That surprises me, and saddens me, about the Philly hospital.
I hope that's enough to satisfy y'all. If not, well, that's A-OK, too.
Sorry, but no.
MedPAC and CMS analyze data hospital by hospital. And many of the struggling hospitals that operate in the red under Medicare are part of healthcare systems. The "healthcare system" language isn't used by MedPAC or CMS only because it isn't part of their analytical methodology. But the answer is the same: hospitals, even those that are part of large healthcare systems, are struggling to make ends meet in today's reimbursement climate.
Among other systems struggling, some prominent ones that have seen the press in recent years include Partners Healthcare (which includes Massachusetts General Hospital, Brigham and Women's Hospital, among others) and Cleveland Clinic (which has facilities in Ohio, Florida, Nevada and Abu Dhabi).
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/providers/partners-healthcare-reports-sharp-drop-operating-income ("The operating decline was driven by a 53% year-over-year decline on the provider side, and a more than doubled operating loss on the insurance side. Not-for-profit Partners said higher acuity and utilization of certain services on the provider side was offset by a shift toward a higher government payer mix and ballooning supply and labor expenses.")
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/02/cleveland-clinic-takes-financial-hit-in-2018.html ("CEO Dr. Tom Mihaljevic attributed that decline to the continued increase in the cost for providing care and decline in reimbursement rates.")
So with Partners Healthcare and Cleveland Clinic - two of the largest and most prominent healthcare systems in the US - struggling to consistently stay in the black, are you still convinced that, in general healthcare systems are A-OK?
Or is it possible, just possible, that they aren't so "A-OK" - that even large and highly successful healthcare systems often struggle just to stay in the black?
At this point, you can keep saying you're right if you want. But it isn't a good look keep insisting you're right despite facts to the contrary. And I have provided plenty of facts to the contrary.
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Sorry, but no.
MedPAC and CMS analyze data hospital by hospital. And many of the struggling hospitals that operate in the red under Medicare are part of healthcare systems. The "healthcare system" language isn't used by MedPAC or CMS only because it isn't part of their analytical methodology. But the answer is the same: hospitals, even those that are part of large healthcare systems, are struggling to make ends meet in today's reimbursement climate.
Among other systems struggling, some prominent ones that have seen the press in recent years include Partners Healthcare (which includes Massachusetts General Hospital, Brigham and Women's Hospital, among others) and Cleveland Clinic (which has facilities in Ohio, Florida, Nevada and Abu Dhabi).
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/providers/partners-healthcare-reports-sharp-drop-operating-income ("The operating decline was driven by a 53% year-over-year decline on the provider side, and a more than doubled operating loss on the insurance side. Not-for-profit Partners said higher acuity and utilization of certain services on the provider side was offset by a shift toward a higher government payer mix and ballooning supply and labor expenses.")
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/02/cleveland-clinic-takes-financial-hit-in-2018.html ("CEO Dr. Tom Mihaljevic attributed that decline to the continued increase in the cost for providing care and decline in reimbursement rates.")
So with Partners Healthcare and Cleveland Clinic - two of the largest and most prominent healthcare systems in the US - struggling to consistently stay in the black, are you still convinced that, in general healthcare systems are A-OK?
Or is it possible, just possible, that they aren't so "A-OK" - that even large and highly successful healthcare systems often struggle just to stay in the black?
At this point, you can keep saying you're right if you want. But it isn't a good look keep insisting you're right despite facts to the contrary. And I have provided plenty of facts to the contrary.
OK, Goooooooooooooooo, thanks for all that info.
Respect you too much to argue with you. Have a good one.
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OK, Goooooooooooooooo, thanks for all that info.
Respect you too much to argue with you. Have a good one.
The respect is mutual 82.
Stay safe, my friend.
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Their 2017 form 990. Find it on guidestar.
Maybe they have some other entities where they pay the big bucks.
Nads, sorry was typing on my phone. Should have said "Found it on guidestar." Meaning that was my source of info, not that yiu shiuld go verify for yourself. Peace.
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The respect is mutual 82.
Stay safe, my friend.
Back at ya.
And just FYI, I didn't blow off the data you sent me. I did look at it. I assumed that most large healthcare systems were in as good financial shape as Atrium, and apparently I shouldn't have.
Nads, sorry was typing on my phone. Should have said "Found it on guidestar." Meaning that was my source of info, not that yiu shiuld go verify for yourself. Peace.
No sweat. Stay well.