Fire this coach?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??

Who has been denied admission?

[mu03eng]

Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.

Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?

[muguru]

Exactly, chickadee. It was the point of my OP.

Steve Lavin made 4 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 in his first 6 years at UCLA and always seemed to be on the verge of being fired for failing to contend for conference titles. When he finally did have that one losing season in Year 7, he was canned. Nowhere near an identical comparison - he actually outperformed Wojo for most of his time; he didn't just lose in Year 7, he crashed and burned by going 10-19 and I believe there were off-court issues too; and of course he was at a school that definitely considered itself a blueblood. Lavin's time at St. John's maybe was more kinda sorta similar to Wojo's at MU - he and the school did the ol' "parted ways" after a first-round NCAA loss ended Year 5.

If the Great Shaka Smart gets fired after this season at Texas, it actually would be pretty close; but that's a big "if."

Bruce Weber at Illinois? He accomplished more early with Self's recruits (Deron Williams, Dee Brown, James Augustine, Luther Head, Roger Powell, Jack Ingram - "slightly" better than what Buzz left Wojo!) but sputtered badly before he was fired. Not very similar at all, actually.

There might be other examples that better demonstrate a school firing a coach with Wojo's resume. I'd welcome an example or 3.

I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.

A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.

[mu03eng]

I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.

Largely because of institutional control problems that you casually dismiss as part of your Buzz Williams apology tour.

[#UnleashSean]

Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.

Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?

That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.

[muguru]

Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.

Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?

Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.

[StillAWarrior]

I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.

A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.

Gotta admit, if Wojo wins the Big 10 twice at MU, I will be pretty damn impressed. Hell, that might even be statue worthy.

[CTWarrior]

That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.

In the six years before Crean took over, we had been to 4 NCAA tournaments with 3 tournament wins and reached an NIT final in one of the other two years.  That looks a lot like his tenure if you ask me.  Deane's recruiting had slipped and I had no problem with his being dismissed, and Crean was a definite upgrade, but we were a good program at the time.  The thing is, other than Majerus/Dukiet stretch, we have been a very good program since the 60s.

[CTWarrior]

My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet.  This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago.  They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend.   Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.

If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come.  That is what I am hoping for.  A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope.  It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen.  I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either.  While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.

I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.

[MU82]

My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet.  This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago.  They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend.   Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.

If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come.  That is what I am hoping for.  A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope.  It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen.  I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either.  While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.

I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.

Super fair, CTW.

I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.

Crean built up IU from the ashes and went to two straight S16s with a team that included two top-5 NBA draft picks. When he followed that by going 17-15 and 20-14 the next two seasons, IU movers and shakers were looking for an excuse to fire him. He was on the extreme hot seat going into the next year, but won the Big14 and reached the S16 again. That bought him another season, which also let the $$ of his buyout go down. When he fell to 10th place the following year, there was little doubt he'd be canned. 3 out of his last 4 years very disappointing - I know you don't like the word "trajectory," but it's a real concept. A program has to look like it's progressing. And again, Indiana is considered a blueblood. So all kinds of differences in the situation.

You also didn't answer my question about whether I remembered correctly about you wanting Wojo fired after last season (or maybe even after the 2017-18 season).

Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.

Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?

Agree with all of this, though I'm not sure it's fair to say, "Take away the FF season and ... " You can't take it away. It was a magical season, and Crean deserves a ton of credit for it.

But I absolutely do get what you are saying. He wasn't able to parlay that into anything even though he still had two future NBA players and some good supporting players on his roster. And in his first season with Wade, a HoFer, he had lost to a 12-seed in the NCAA tourney.

[Cheeks]

I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??

End of the day you want same results as Crean and Buzz and you admit the standards and restrictions exist on recruiting, yet you still demand the same results.

Cool.  Totally unreasonable, but cool...in your mind. What am I missing?

[Cheeks]

I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.

A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.

And they hit a homer with Archie (allegedly) who they want to fire now.  Be careful what you wish for

[Cheeks]

Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.

And you continue to ignore that restrictions were put in place and yet you keep making these comparisons.

[mu03eng]

That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.

This right here is a reflection of why expectations on this board are so out of whack.....Crean didn't "save" MU, it was a solid program when he took over. Did he make more out of it than it was, yes I think he did especially getting MU into the Big East, but let's not pretend that somehow Crean saved the day. Buzz's performance was extraordinary and set expectations very high which is fine but Wojo isn't exactly crapping the bed either when it compares to historical performances at MU.

[mu03eng]

Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.

Got it so as long as your success is front loaded you are fine with it.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This right here is a reflection of why expectations on this board are so out of whack.....Crean didn't "save" MU, it was a solid program when he took over. Did he make more out of it than it was, yes I think he did especially getting MU into the Big East, but let's not pretend that somehow Crean saved the day. Buzz's performance was extraordinary and set expectations very high which is fine but Wojo isn't exactly crapping the bed either when it compares to historical performances at MU.

When Crean took over, the program was just three years removed from winning the CUSA tournament (which meant something back then), and getting upset in the first round of the NCAAs (7/10 game v. Providence).

It was two years removed from an NIT appearance where we lost at Minnesota by two in the game deciding who went to NYC.  Deane's last season was a disasterous crap show.

But the program was fine.  It was especially fine when you consider where it was a decade earlier when we truly were on the edge of becoming Loyola.

[tower912]

Wojo is Crean without the final 4.    Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4.   Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four.    Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes.    He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team.    IU called and he jumped. 
    Listen to Buzz's press conference.   He respects Crean.    Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived.   He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success.     The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left.    Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.   
   Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success.    It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games.    But he has won just fine in years 2-6.    He has a great class coming in.   He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.   

[muguru]

Super fair, CTW.

Crean built up IU from the ashes and went to two straight S16s with a team that included two top-5 NBA draft picks. When he followed that by going 17-15 and 20-14 the next two seasons, IU movers and shakers were looking for an excuse to fire him. He was on the extreme hot seat going into the next year, but won the Big14 and reached the S16 again. That bought him another season, which also let the $$ of his buyout go down. When he fell to 10th place the following year, there was little doubt he'd be canned. 3 out of his last 4 years very disappointing - I know you don't like the word "trajectory," but it's a real concept. A program has to look like it's progressing. And again, Indiana is considered a blueblood. So all kinds of differences in the situation.

You also didn't answer my question about whether I remembered correctly about you wanting Wojo fired after last season (or maybe even after the 2017-18 season).

Agree with all of this, though I'm not sure it's fair to say, "Take away the FF season and ... " You can't take it away. It was a magical season, and Crean deserves a ton of credit for it.

But I absolutely do get what you are saying. He wasn't able to parlay that into anything even though he still had two future NBA players and some good supporting players on his roster. And in his first season with Wade, a HoFer, he had lost to a 12-seed in the NCAA tourney.

Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Wojo is Crean without the final 4.    Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4.   Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four.    Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes.    He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team.    IU called and he jumped. 
    Listen to Buzz's press conference.   He respects Crean.    Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived.   He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success.     The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left.    Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.   
   Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success.    It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games.    But he has won just fine in years 2-6.    He has a great class coming in.   He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.   

Your reasonable posts have made me soften my feelings toward Wojo.

[StillAWarrior]

Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.

Good thing he wasn't fired.

[MU82]

Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.

Thank you for your honest answer. You have, on multiple occasions in prior years, said you wanted him fired. Now, you're begrudgingly willing to give him a little more slack. Duly noted.

Wojo is Crean without the final 4.    Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in.    Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4.   Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four.    Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes.    He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team.    IU called and he jumped. 
    Listen to Buzz's press conference.   He respects Crean.    Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived.   He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success.     The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left.    Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.   
   Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success.    It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games.    But he has won just fine in years 2-6.    He has a great class coming in.   He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.   

Superbly stated, tower.

Wojo has not been a "failure." He has not succeeded as much as most of us would like. The jury is still out. I am hopeful.

[Shooter McGavin]

A strong finish this year with a couple tournament wins will definitely soften the Nojos.  At this time next year we may be laughing about threads like this.

[mu03eng]

A strong finish this year with a couple tournament wins will definitely soften the Nojos.  At this time next year we may be laughing about threads like this.

The most frustrating thing is I highly doubt that. Let's say Wojo finishes 3rd in conference on a 11-7 record and makes it to the S16 this season.....as soon as we lose a game we shouldn't next year or lose more than one game in a row the nay sayers will be right back.

There is a cottage industry within Scoop built around being perpetually aggrieved.

[MU82]

The most frustrating thing is I highly doubt that. Let's say Wojo finishes 3rd in conference on a 11-7 record and makes it to the S16 this season.....as soon as we lose a game we shouldn't next year or lose more than one game in a row the nay sayers will be right back.

There is a cottage industry within Scoop built around being perpetually aggrieved.

This. Totally this.

[Elonsmusk]

My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet.  This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago.  They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend.   Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.

If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come.  That is what I am hoping for.  A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope.  It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen.  I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either.  While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.

I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.

Very good post, bolded crystalizing current reality well, too.

I feel this season is Wojo's best coaching job since arriving at MU.  He's exceeding my pre-season expectations.  As a result, I can see validity to the ProJo's argument(s) for Wojo. 

Would be GREAT if we can make a little run in Big East tournament to semifinals, and then win a game or two in NCAA - this would really get the monkey off Wojo's back.

I don't have high hopes for next season, but if Wojo can get us some March success this year that buys a bit more goodwill/patience.

This all being said, I do think it is going to take Wojo landing the best talent at MU since Al for us to have hopes of being a Sweet 16 caliber program.