MU by the numbers

[Dr. Blackheart]

on a positive note, I was trying to talk my friend's son into checking out MU (he'd get tuition remission via exchange) and take him to a basketball game this summer and my buddy said: "he wouldn't get in, too good of a school."

You were going to take him to the MU games in Europe? Sweet.  I want to be your friend too.

[warriorchick]

That would be a fantastic marketing ploy.  Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons:  "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"

. And while you are at it, would you mind giving our brochure to one of your smarter friends?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

That would be a fantastic marketing ploy.  Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons:  "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"

I'd apply once a week.

[🏀]

That would be a fantastic marketing ploy.  Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons:  "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"

Might as well include an Arby’s application if they can’t get into this lower version of higher education.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Might as well include an Arby’s application if they can’t get into this lower version of higher education.

Arby’s Frontier Program.  The coupons count towards discounted tuition.

[forgetful]

Marquette is not achieving the enrollment revenue that they targeted this year.  The goals outlined in Lovell’s plan. This has been a short term failure and could turn into a long term problem.

BTW all of this was told to me weeks ago by someone who works in the administration. The alarm bells have been going off for months when they realized this class was going to fall way short.

The blaming of demographics is just spin.

Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.

The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.

[Billy Hoyle]

Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.

The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.

I can’t blame international students not wanting to come to the US at this time in history.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Part of this is due to factors not in America's control.  India has invested a bunch in their universities so they aren't moving abroad as much.  Saudi Arabia, under Salman, aren't investing as much in their study abroad program.

But Mexican students made up a ton of those going abroad, and that has dropped to a near trickle for obvious reasons.

And this is mostly affecting schools in the midwest.  Schools in the east and west aren't seeing as big of a drop.

[forgetful]

Part of this is due to factors not in America's control.  India has invested a bunch in their universities so they aren't moving abroad as much.  Saudi Arabia, under Salman, aren't investing as much in their study abroad program.

But Mexican students made up a ton of those going abroad, and that has dropped to a near trickle for obvious reasons.

And this is mostly affecting schools in the midwest.  Schools in the east and west aren't seeing as big of a drop.

Schools in the south are also being hit big. The south and midwest are the largest areas being affected. And yes, your assessment on the complexities of why are correct.

[Cheeks]

Schools in the south are also being hit big. The south and midwest are the largest areas being affected. And yes, your assessment on the complexities of why are correct.

Yup, schools chasing the money with international kids paying full freight and as a byproduct some American kids left standing.  Been a raging debate in California the last ten years as the public state systems tax payers pay for have made it very difficult for the kids of taxpayers of this state to attend.  In essence, we are paying for kids from everywhere else to come and get educated.  UC and Cal Stare schools were forced to open up more slots for actual state residents it had gotten so bad. 

Two sides to the coin folks.

[warriorchick]

Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.

The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.

Marquette has never relied on international students for enrollment.  In the past decade, incoming non-US-based freshman enrollment has ranged between 29 and 72, and the change in that number does not correlate with the overall rise and fall in overall in enrollment.  For example in 2018, the freshman enrollment was 2,162, with 29 international students.  In 2013, freshman enrollment was 1,989 with 72 international students.

[4everwarriors]

Ah eye cee, MU's budgetary issues are da Prez's fault, aina?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Plenty of capacity in higher education. It’s not a problem.

[Cheeks]

Plenty of capacity in higher education. It’s not a problem.

Capacity is one thing.  Quality capacity at desirable schools not always the case.

21% of UC schools students...

https://www.vcstar.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/08/22/uc-continues-enrollment-chicanery/590341001/

[forgetful]

Marquette has never relied on international students for enrollment.  In the past decade, incoming non-US-based freshman enrollment has ranged between 29 and 72, and the change in that number does not correlate with the overall rise and fall in overall in enrollment.  For example in 2018, the freshman enrollment was 2,162, with 29 international students.  In 2013, freshman enrollment was 1,989 with 72 international students.

If they were budgeting with the expectation that they would stay at ~72, that is a budget shortfall of $1.8M, since they pay full tuition. If they were planning on growing even modestly, lets say to 100, that is a budget shortfall of $3M.

Those are significant numbers due to a small number of students. But you are looking at undergraduates only. The big money is in graduate students. Marquette has ~700 international students enrolled. The majority graduate students, who also pay full tuition.

Ah eye cee, MU's budgetary issues are da Prez's fault, aina?

As Fluffy said, and I agreed. There are a number of reasons. It is fairly complex. A significant one is Saudi Arabia cutting back on scholarships to its youth.

[forgetful]

Yup, schools chasing the money with international kids paying full freight and as a byproduct some American kids left standing.  Been a raging debate in California the last ten years as the public state systems tax payers pay for have made it very difficult for the kids of taxpayers of this state to attend.  In essence, we are paying for kids from everywhere else to come and get educated.  UC and Cal Stare schools were forced to open up more slots for actual state residents it had gotten so bad. 

Two sides to the coin folks.

Not going to disagree entirely. Capacity is limited in some schools for undergraduate first-year students (not necessarily transfers). The numbers of undergraduate International students are not often affecting admissions of any other prospective students (I do not know the situations in CA, so that could be incorrect there).

They are rarely limited for graduate students. That is why international graduate students are so attractive to these schools, and reduction in applications on this front is a problem. They pay full tuition, and do not impact capacity. Essentially pure revenue.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Plenty of capacity at quality schools. Californians just need to learn how to cross a state border.

[warriorchick]

If they were budgeting with the expectation that they would stay at ~72, that is a budget shortfall of $1.8M, since they pay full tuition. If they were planning on growing even modestly, lets say to 100, that is a budget shortfall of $3M.

Those are significant numbers due to a small number of students. But you are looking at undergraduates only. The big money is in graduate students. Marquette has ~700 international students enrolled. The majority graduate students, who also pay full tuition.

As Fluffy said, and I agreed. There are a number of reasons. It is fairly complex. A significant one is Saudi Arabia cutting back on scholarships to its youth.

I belleve the original conversation was about undergrads.  And exactly how many Saudi students have traditionally enrolled at Marquette?

[lawdog77]

in my midwestern HS, the SAT wasn't even an option. 

Interesting map here. Illinois is the outlier for the midwest and SAT.

https://www.studypoint.com/ed/sat-and-act-test/

that map shows Indiana as the SAT outlier

[Cheeks]

Plenty of capacity at quality schools. Californians just need to learn how to cross a state border.

Uhm, Californians are paying hefty taxes for the state schools here, and many of them very good students who cannot get in because the state schools want the money from not Calif or even non US citizens.  I’m sure you can understand that subsidy rankles many people here....and believe me, many have learned how to cross stare borders...permanently.  Last week was the annual results, and net exodus continues in this state...cannot flee fast enough.

Another 691k said bye bye...4% increase from last year.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/691145-californians-left-last-year-what-state-did-they-go-to/ar-AAJGRvy

[warriorchick]

Uhm, Californians are paying hefty taxes for the state schools here, and many of them very good students who cannot get in because the state schools want the money from not Calif or even non US citizens.  I’m sure you can understand that subsidy rankles many people here....and believe me, many have learned how to cross stare borders...permanently.  Last week was the annual results, and net exodus continues in this state...cannot flee fast enough.

Sounds like Illinois. And Glow and I will be joining the fleeing ranks as soon as we can get someone to buy our house.

[Cheeks]

Sounds like Illinois. And Glow and I will be joining the fleeing ranks as soon as we can get someone to buy our house.

I wish you all the best.  About 8 more months for us if all goes well.

[forgetful]

I belleve the original conversation was about undergrads.  And exactly how many Saudi students have traditionally enrolled at Marquette?

My apologies on the confusion. The original thread was indeed about undergrads. It then turned into a criticism on the administration about budget cuts. Some of the messaging coming out of institutions simply references "enrollment growth," because it is more palatable than "we expected more international students paying full tuition". I was trying to give an update on origins of similar budget shortfalls nationwide.

Regarding Saudi students at MU. There honestly aren't that many. That isn't a major player at MU. But I'm intentionally avoiding going down the actual reasons MU is likely affected, and instead am trying to focus on general trends nationwide. MU from 2017 to 2018 alone saw a 7% decline in international student enrollment. That follows a similar decline in 2016-17.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Californians have not been supporting higher eduation.  The amount per student has decreased signficantly over the past 30 years, which has lead to tuition supported institutions who are naturally seeking out students who will pay more.  It's simple supply and demand.

If Californians want more access to public higher education, they should pay for it.  But they won't. 

[Disco Hippie]

But I'm intentionally avoiding going down the actual reasons MU is likely affected, and instead am trying to focus on general trends nationwide.

Why?   Some of us would like to know more as to the underlying reasons.   Besides what you’ve heard from people more in the know, are there any other reasons you think or suspect is the cause?