High School Athlete Consequences

[Jockey]

yes, it does actually.

So, all actions are defined by alcohol?

Wow. Who knew?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Funny thing happened. They were usually the designated driver. Even though according to almost everyone here, they were simply rule breakers.

Well if those were your only 2 rules for them than they weren't rule breakers as it related to you and it wouldn't have been right for you to hold them accountable.

They most likely were rule breakers of their school's rules and if the school found out they would have been well within their right to hold them accountable.

I don't think anyone is saying that this young woman is a horrible delinquent. She simply made a choice and is now being asked to accept the consequences of that choice. I don't think anyone wants her locked up but I don't think a 4 game suspension from an extra curricular activity is an overally harsh punishment. If it was a suspension from school I might think differently but not from an extra curricular.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So, all actions are defined by alcohol?

Wow. Who knew?

Your couple in question hosted the dinner at their home.  That means the hosted the party.

If you, me and TAMU go to dinner at Sultan's house, and it's BYOB, sultan is still the host (a cheap-ass mf'er, but still the host).  The 3 of us aren't the host, it's Sultan's crib.

Now, does that mean that legally Sultan is liable for TAMU getting drunk and killing someone in his car?  Probably not, but there still is some vicarious liability on his part.  He owned the home that the drinking occurred at, therefore he has some liability.  Just like you and me have some liability for waking up that morning and going to Sultan's crib with some hootch of our own.

If the girl and her parents wanted to avoid the responsibility of hosting underage drinking, as soon as those other kids pulled out the beer, the girl and her parents should have tossed they asses out on the street.  Not saying that that is the right thing to do, some parents want their kids to be drinking at home, that way the parents know where their kid is.  Doesn't make it right or legal.  Doesn't make the girl or her parents "cool." 

But if you want to avoid things like suspensions for hosting a drinking party when you are a high school athlete that signed a code of conduct, then you got to put your foot down.

And God help me if me, Sultan, you and TAMU would ever drink together.  That would be insufferable.

[Pakuni]

If I pretend that drinking a beer and threatening someone's life are the same thing

Rarely do high school kids stop at one beer. And so, if we're going to be realistic (accept it or don't) a high school kid after many beers can be threatening someone's life, whether it be others' or his/her own.  about 2,500 people die every year because of an underage drunk driver. Several thousand more underage people die of alcohol poisoning every year.

Kids in high school are gonna drink. Accept it or don't. But don't make out like they are a bunch of unruly punks who should be punished at every step. It's part of the growing up process.

This is true. It's also true that responsible adults shouldn't condone, sanction or permit it.

Funny thing happened. They were usually the designated driver. Even though according to almost everyone here, they were simply rule breakers.

Pretty sure no one here said that.

[GGGG]

So if you host a dinner party at your house for 5 couples (assuming for the sake of discussion that you have no alcohol in your house), then if one couple brings a bottle of wine it means you are hosting an alcohol party?

LOL.  Are you serious?  You are hung up on "drinking party?"

"We know you are in trouble when you need to parse words."

[Jockey]

Well if those were your only 2 rules for them than they weren't rule breakers as it related to you and it wouldn't have been right for you to hold them accountable.

They most likely were rule breakers of their school's rules and if the school found out they would have been well within their right to hold them accountable.

I Agee TAMU. But, those 2 rules were not created in a vacuum. There were many discussions about alcohol and drugs as well as right and wrong as they grew up. They knew what was expected by my wife and I.

I think maybe where my disagreement with everyone here is that I don't equate rules with right and wrong. Rules are often simply there for the convenience of the rule maker.

But I hope no one here is taking this as an endorsement of alcohol use by minors. As I said, it was discussed many times before they reached high school age.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I definitely agree that rules are not always about right and wrong. If a rule is unjust, it should be challenged. I don't find this rule unjust.

[WarriorFan]

My kids sign an athletic code that calls for complete abstinence for the school year for all athletes.  The school has the right (not a US school) to take a urine, blood, or hair sample at any time.  The policy is zero tolerance - immediate expulsion - and if drugs are involved - reporting to the authorities.

I think this is an awesome policy. 

Actually saw a family in Singapore asked to leave the country a day after their international school kid got caught with drugs.  They really didn't have a choice...your kid did this, here's the proof, you have been terminated from your job, your work permit expires today, and you have 6 hours to leave the country...

Moral of the story (to me) - this is a FAMILY thing, not just a "teenager" thing, and the whole family is responsible for the success or failure of the teenager.  Actually the community, not just the family.

[Jockey]

I definitely agree that rules are not always about right and wrong. If a rule is unjust, it should be challenged. I don't find this rule unjust.

Funny thing is - I don't either. But all is not black & white in our world. If she asked them to bring beer, and they got caught, well too bad. Take the punishment.

If they brought beer and she didn't know they were going to do it..... and, didn't partake, then the rules need to be changed.

[4everwarriors]

Nah, coulda said to her friends, "either the beer goes, or you do."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Funny thing is - I don't either. But all is not black & white in our world. If she asked them to bring beer, and they got caught, well too bad. Take the punishment.

If they brought beer and she didn't know they were going to do it..... and, didn't partake, then the rules need to be changed.

Nah, coulda said to her friends, "either the beer goes, or you do."

Exactly

[UWW2MU]

Funny thing is - I don't either. But all is not black & white in our world. If she asked them to bring beer, and they got caught, well too bad. Take the punishment.

If they brought beer and she didn't know they were going to do it..... and, didn't partake, then the rules need to be changed.

I personally believe that the rules, the code of conduct and the consequences in this case were all sound.    However, I can at least understand why a parent may disagree, as you do.   Perhaps these parents believe their child did the right thing by simply not partaking and even justifies their belief by saying that at least their child didn't let them drink and drive perhaps (I made that detail up, but just saying they probably have ways of justifying it as right).

However, none of that explains why they'd go to the lengths they are by filing a lawsuit.  You take a teachable moment about social contracts, discussing underage drinking, standing up against your peers when they're doing something you know is wrong (or at least can get you in trouble) and so much more and instead turn it into a lesson that you can do whatever you want and mom and dad will always back you up.   

It could have been a real growing up moment for this girl and instead she's come down with a case of affluenza.

[Coleman]

If I pretend that drinking a beer and threatening someone's life are the same thing, then your comment makes a lot of sense.

Kids in high school are gonna drink. Accept it or don't. But don't make out like they are a bunch of unruly punks who should be punished at every step. It's part of the growing up process.

Obviously, I'm not a rule guy. I only had 2 simple rules for my kids when they were in high school.

1. When you are away from home, I want to know where you are at all times.

2. Never drink and drive. Ever. No mulligans on this one. I'll be up when you get home and if I even suspect it, your keys are mine until I arbitrarily decide to give them back to you. If you are at a party or a friend's house and even have one beer or wine cooler, you call your mother or I to pick you up.

Funny thing happened. They were usually the designated driver. Even though according to almost everyone here, they were simply rule breakers.

That's all well and good.

But if a kid signs a code of conduct, they should be expected to abide by it. It is really as simple as that. Or are we teaching them that their word means nothing?

I was by no means anti-drinking in high school. I had friends (non athletes) who drank year round. I just avoided social situations where it could land me on the bench for a few games. I drank (though not often) or went to parties where there was drinking (more often) during the summer between my junior and senior year, and after I graduated, when I knew the code of conduct was not in force. Hanging out with my teammates and not drinking was honestly way more fun anyway, as those were my closest friends. Any sacrifice I made in this regard I more than made up for during my time at Marquette.

If you want to be able to drink, or hang out with people who do, don't play sports, don't sign the code of conduct. You have a choice. No one is saying this girl should be tarred and feathered and dragged through the streets. But sitting four games is a great teachable moment. The fact that the parents come down on the side of suing the school is insane.

I had fun as a kid. But I honored my commitment to my team and the code I signed. My word meant something to me.

[Coleman]

Nah, coulda said to her friends, "either the beer goes, or you do."

Bingo

[jesmu84]

That's all well and good.

But if a kid signs a code of conduct, they should be expected to abide by it. It is really as simple as that. Or are we teaching them that their word means nothing?

I was by no means anti-drinking in high school. I had friends (non athletes) who drank year round. I just avoided social situations where it could land me on the bench for a few games. I drank (though not often) or went to parties where there was drinking (more often) during the summer between my junior and senior year, and after I graduated, when I knew the code of conduct was not in force. Hanging out with my teammates and not drinking was honestly way more fun anyway, as those were my closest friends. Any sacrifice I made in this regard I more than made up for during my time at Marquette.

If you want to be able to drink, or hang out with people who do, don't play sports, don't sign the code of conduct. You have a choice. No one is saying this girl should be tarred and feathered and dragged through the streets. But sitting four games is a great teachable moment. The fact that the parents come down on the side of suing the school is insane.

I had fun as a kid. But I honored my commitment to my team and the code I signed. My word meant something to me.

As a society, we demonstrate over and over and over again that someone's word doesn't mean anything. And has no significant consequences.

Why should this girl be punished when others go without punishment?

(I actually do believe she should be punished. Just like I believe others should as well)

[MomofMUltiples]

As a parent I have had very real and painful experiences with respect to forcing my kids to face consequences of their actions - some that have involved schools, of course, but also courts, temporary institutionalization and forcing one kid out of the house (at 19) because I could not guarantee the safety of my other children (or myself) with him living there.  At the same time, I worked tirelessly on their behalf to get them any help that they needed to resolve their problems and face their realities.

As a society it seems that people work very hard to shift blame to someone other than themselves.  Don't get me started on tort reform, but when a woman can get $ millions from McDonald's because they should have warned her that her coffee was hot before she put it between her legs to drive off, we have gone too far.  We see this kind of thing day after day and it marginalizes cases where people were truly and badly damaged by someone else's negligence.

My husband always urges me to fight every parking or speeding ticket that I get (not that many, but over 35 years they add up...), but my reasoning has always been, "Why? I was speeding, and paying this fine is a small price to pay for all the times I have exceeded the speed limit and not been caught." 

I think all parents want to save their kids from the consequences of life, whether it's burning their hand when they touch a hot stove or performing 100 hours of community service when they are caught shoplifting.  If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  Suing because your kid broke a rule that was likely clearly discussed prior to the season and getting a suspension that was also likely discussed as a consequence is teaching your kids to ignore rules.

God I feel old writing this. "Kids these days.....!"

[Sir Lawrence]

As a society it seems that people work very hard to shift blame to someone other than themselves.  Don't get me started on tort reform, but when a woman can get $ millions from McDonald's because they should have warned her that her coffee was hot before she put it between her legs to drive off, we have gone too far.  We see this kind of thing day after day and it marginalizes cases where people were truly and badly damaged by someone else's negligence.

I agree with your comments on accepting responsibility, but the coffee case has been badly misrepresented.  Regardless of the merits of the case, she didn't get $ millions.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants

[CTWarrior]

So you think that the guy that was waiting for his armed robbery sentence should have been eligible?  Unless he robbed the school or was cutting class to rob the place it would be none of the schools business, based on your reasoning.

Something that happens in your home where there are no consequences and basically someone had to "tell on" the attendees for the school to find out is Big Brother crap we don't need.  I think forcing kids to sign those behavior documents to participate in sports is BS.  Keep your grades and attendance where it needs to be and no behavioral problems in school, OK.  It is your parents job to teach you right from wrong.  I will say that my stance would change for a felony.  But kids being kids is different.  What's a girl's soccer season?  12-15 games?  Taking a way a third to a quarter of her season to me is harsh punishment. 

If I was that girl's parents I'd have gone to the school to argue her case and try to work out an alternate punishment, but I certainly would not have sued.

As for getting caught in my first foray into a bar as told above, our coach did tell us if he heard about that stuff happening again, that would be it for any of us.  As far as I know, my parents never found out.  They'd have meted out a tougher punishment than any school would.

[Its DJOver]

Something that happens in your home where there are no consequences and basically someone had to "tell on" the attendees for the school to find out is Big Brother crap we don't need.  I think forcing kids to sign those behavior documents to participate in sports is BS.  Keep your grades and attendance where it needs to be and no behavioral problems in school, OK.  It is your parents job to teach you right from wrong.  I will say that my stance would change for a felony.  But kids being kids is different.  What's a girl's soccer season?  12-15 games?  Taking a way a third to a quarter of her season to me is harsh punishment. 

If I was that girl's parents I'd have gone to the school to argue her case and try to work out an alternate punishment, but I certainly would not have sued.

As for getting caught in my first foray into a bar as told above, our coach did tell us if he heard about that stuff happening again, that would be it for any of us.  As far as I know, my parents never found out.  They'd have meted out a tougher punishment than any school would.

The lawsuit does not state how officials found out about the party, but if all attendee's were friends I doubt any student narced, which would suggest that the police would have been contacted.  That may have been just a noise complaint initially, but once the police show up, I would be very concerned if they turned a blind eye, so the response was appropriate.

Being on a team is a privilege, not a right, so any behavior documents are absolutely the right way to go about it.  If people know that there are real consequences, they are less likely to commit violations.

The season is 16 games long and the suspension was issued on Feb 23rd, which means that she would have missed a quarter of the season, and have been back by any postseason.  Very reasonable if you ask me.   

[Jockey]

I personally believe that the rules, the code of conduct and the consequences in this case were all sound.    However, I can at least understand why a parent may disagree, as you do.   Perhaps these parents believe their child did the right thing by simply not partaking and even justifies their belief by saying that at least their child didn't let them drink and drive perhaps (I made that detail up, but just saying they probably have ways of justifying it as right).

However, none of that explains why they'd go to the lengths they are by filing a lawsuit.  You take a teachable moment about social contracts, discussing underage drinking, standing up against your peers when they're doing something you know is wrong (or at least can get you in trouble) and so much more and instead turn it into a lesson that you can do whatever you want and mom and dad will always back you up.   

It could have been a real growing up moment for this girl and instead she's come down with a case of affluenza.

I agree with all you say.

[Jockey]

That's all well and good.

But if a kid signs a code of conduct, they should be expected to abide by it. It is really as simple as that. Or are we teaching them that their word means nothing?

I was by no means anti-drinking in high school. I had friends (non athletes) who drank year round. I just avoided social situations where it could land me on the bench for a few games. I drank (though not often) or went to parties where there was drinking (more often) during the summer between my junior and senior year, and after I graduated, when I knew the code of conduct was not in force. Hanging out with my teammates and not drinking was honestly way more fun anyway, as those were my closest friends. Any sacrifice I made in this regard I more than made up for during my time at Marquette.

If you want to be able to drink, or hang out with people who do, don't play sports, don't sign the code of conduct. You have a choice. No one is saying this girl should be tarred and feathered and dragged through the streets. But sitting four games is a great teachable moment. The fact that the parents come down on the side of suing the school is insane.

I had fun as a kid. But I honored my commitment to my team and the code I signed. My word meant something to me.

This is not meant as an attack, but rather as a serious question.

Why did you feel it was OK to break the law, but wrong to break a code of conduct? I bring this up simply as a way to point out that the issues are not always black & white as others here seem to think (your response seems more reasoned) and we all have to make our own judgments.

[StillAWarrior]

Don't get me started on tort reform, but when a woman can get $ millions from McDonald's because they should have warned her that her coffee was hot before she put it between her legs to drive off, we have gone too far.  We see this kind of thing day after day and it marginalizes cases where people were truly and badly damaged by someone else's negligence.

I am someone who absolutely hates frivolous lawsuits and verdicts; am a big proponent of tort reform; and also happen to be a defense attorney that has spent most of my career fighting frivolous lawsuits against businesses (although admittedly, not products liability).  Having offered that prefatory statement:  pretty much everything you said about that case is incorrect.  I spent many years complaining about the McDonald's coffee case...then I read about it.  There are many, many examples out there of an utterly broken tort system.  In my personal opinion, Liebeck v. McDonalds isn't one of them.

[Coleman]

This is not meant as an attack, but rather as a serious question.

Why did you feel it was OK to break the law, but wrong to break a code of conduct? I bring this up simply as a way to point out that the issues are not always black & white as others here seem to think (your response seems more reasoned) and we all have to make our own judgments.

This really isn't that hard. I've already alluded to it multiple times. It has to do with integrity, not laws or rules.

A code of conduct was willingly entered into. It was an agreement. Yes, it was the price to play high school sports, and perhaps it is an unfair price, but everyone who agrees still has a choice. No one is forced to play high school sports and abide by a code of conduct.

The law was imposed on me. According to Aquinas, an unjust law is no law at all. A law that says a person can die for their country but not have a beer is an unjust law (I did not serve in the military, but my feeling on the law is the same for being old enough to vote, enter into a contract, etc.). Thus I have no moral qualms about breaking it, so far as I am not harming anyone else.

Breaking an agreement I freely and willingly entered into is a breach of my word. It is a breach of my integrity. It is going back on a promise to my coach and teammates.

I don't think this girl is an awful person. She's probably a normal teenager. I just wish her parents used this as a learning opportunity rather than turn it into a lawsuit.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I am someone who absolutely hates frivolous lawsuits and verdicts; am a big proponent of tort reform; and also happen to be a defense attorney that has spent most of my career fighting frivolous lawsuits against businesses (although admittedly, not products liability).  Having offered that prefatory statement:  pretty much everything you said about that case is incorrect.  I spent many years complaining about the McDonald's coffee case...then I read about it.  There are many, many examples out there of an utterly broken tort system.  In my personal opinion, Liebeck v. McDonalds isn't one of them.

agreed.  most of the "headline" grabbing jury verdicts for insane amounts of money are reduced on appeal.

[Jockey]

This really isn't that hard. I've already alluded to it multiple times. It has to do with integrity, not laws or rules.

A code of conduct was willingly entered into. It was an agreement. Yes, it was the price to play high school sports, and perhaps it is an unfair price, but everyone who agrees still has a choice. No one is forced to play high school sports and abide by a code of conduct.

The law was imposed on me. According to Aquinas, an unjust law is no law at all. A law that says a person can die for their country but not have a beer is an unjust law (I did not serve in the military, but my feeling on the law is the same for being old enough to vote, enter into a contract, etc.). Thus I have no moral qualms about breaking it, so far as I am not harming anyone else.

Breaking an agreement I freely and willingly entered into is a breach of my word. It is a breach of my integrity. It is going back on a promise to my coach and teammates.

I don't think this girl is an awful person. She's probably a normal teenager. I just wish her parents used this as a learning opportunity rather than turn it into a lawsuit.

Thanks for the reply