Is this fair?

[B. McBannerson]

Exactly.

I have learned more about the posters here on Scoop in this thread than I did about the subject.

Some want to be inclusive. Some strive to separate and fight anyone different.

The vast tapestry is what makes life worth living.

When one plays sports at a highly organized level with the purpose of determine whom is the best based on uniform rules of participation, what is the goal?

I'm all for inclusion.  Can I not also be for competition, fairness, and a level playing field?  When inclusion violates fairness, it leads to discussions like this.  Your personal attacks are noted and say a lot.

[Pakuni]

You are sounding like Jimmy the Greek.   

Kidding aside, that's nothing like what Jimmy said.

It is also not a scientific fact as you claim.  https://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200737040-00039

I'm not excluding environmental factors as well - and I suspect the Kenyans' success is a result of interaction between natural and environmental factors - but numerous studies have shown physical differences between Kenyan runners and their non-Kenyan competitors.

Like this one, showing they have more elastic leg tendons, allowing them a stride with more height and power, but also with less contact time on the ground.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-012-2559-6/fulltext.html

Or this one, which found:
"For the Kenyan runners, it appears that their ectomorphic somatotype characterized by long, slender legs might provide advantages in biomechanical and metabolic economy/efficiency, resulting  in  enhanced  performance  in  middle-  and 
long-distance  events."
And
"Both the Kenyans and the Ethiopians have lived  for  millennia  at  moderate  altitude  (2000–2500 m) in the highlands of the Great Rift Valley. It is not illogical to assume that this chronic hypoxic exposure has conferred certain as-yet unidentified genetic and
phenotypical benefits that allow them to consistently train at altitude at running velocities (vLT and VO2max) that their on-altitude-based opponents do not seem to be able to achieve without overtraining. This ability to conduct  moderate-volume,  high-intensity  training at altitude on a consistent basis ultimately translates into exceptional running performance for the Kenyans and Ethiopians on descent to lower elevations."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yannis_Pitsiladis/publication/225064362_Kenyan_and_Ethiopian_Distance_Runners_What_Makes_Them_So_Good/links/54abb5f90cf2bce6aa1d9b69.pdf

For the record, both these studies are more recent than the one you cite.
And that's all I have to say about Kenyan runners.

[Pakuni]

When one plays sports at a highly organized level with the purpose of determine whom is the best based on uniform rules of participation, what is the goal?

I'm all for inclusion.  Can I not also be for competition, fairness, and a level playing field?  When inclusion violates fairness, it leads to discussions like this.  Your personal attacks are noted and say a lot.

Key phrase being "uniform rules of participation."
By all accounts, these transgender athletes are participating under the same uniform rules as everyone else. Agreed?

And again, enough with the "fairness" argument. Athletic competitions are inherently unfair because some kids will always have innate and extrinsic advantages over others.
Is it fair that some high school athletes get to train in state-of-the-art facilities provided by their wealthy school district and receive year-round training on their parents' dime, while others play at schools that don't have weight rooms, regular access to practice fields and need to use GoFundMe to get players pre-game meals?
Why is that kind of unfairness - which affects millions of more kids than the transgender issue - completely acceptable, but letting a transitioning kid compete has so many up in arms? I wonder what could be different ....

[forgetful]

Kidding aside, that's nothing like what Jimmy said.


I'm not excluding environmental factors as well - and I suspect the Kenyans' success is a result of interaction between natural and environmental factors - but numerous studies have shown physical differences between Kenyan runners and their non-Kenyan competitors.

Like this one, showing they have more elastic leg tendons, allowing them a stride with more height and power, but also with less contact time on the ground.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-012-2559-6/fulltext.html

Or this one, which found:
"For the Kenyan runners, it appears that their ectomorphic somatotype characterized by long, slender legs might provide advantages in biomechanical and metabolic economy/efficiency, resulting  in  enhanced  performance  in  middle-  and 
long-distance  events."
And
"Both the Kenyans and the Ethiopians have lived  for  millennia  at  moderate  altitude  (2000–2500 m) in the highlands of the Great Rift Valley. It is not illogical to assume that this chronic hypoxic exposure has conferred certain as-yet unidentified genetic and
phenotypical benefits that allow them to consistently train at altitude at running velocities (vLT and VO2max) that their on-altitude-based opponents do not seem to be able to achieve without overtraining. This ability to conduct  moderate-volume,  high-intensity  training at altitude on a consistent basis ultimately translates into exceptional running performance for the Kenyans and Ethiopians on descent to lower elevations."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yannis_Pitsiladis/publication/225064362_Kenyan_and_Ethiopian_Distance_Runners_What_Makes_Them_So_Good/links/54abb5f90cf2bce6aa1d9b69.pdf

For the record, both these studies are more recent than the one you cite.
And that's all I have to say about Kenyan runners.

I can almost assure you that Kenyan runners have genetic differences that help their athletic abilities.  It is just not easy to find these things, as we often do not know where to look, and more recent understanding of epigenetic provides even more ways these subtle enhancements can be achieved. 

But there is a different and great example of how these things can occur, largely because of environmental factors.  Genetic mutations have been found in Sherpas that allow them to have profound athletic ability allowing them to scale Mt. Everest with ease.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/07/tibetans-inherited-high-altitude-gene-ancient-human

[GGGG]

I haven't attached anyone and didn't make it personal.  Shame you weren't able to

I gotta do what I gotta do.

[jutaw22mu]

As I said, some look to unite, and some just think how does it affect me. Put the different people in another group where I don't have to deal with them.

Are the trans people not thinking only about how they are affected???

[GGGG]

Are the trans people not thinking only about how they are affected???

I think "the trans people" are simply playing by the rules in front of them for the most part.  In this Connecticut case, the girl was participating within the rules.

[Lennys Tap]

I think "the trans people" are simply playing by the rules in front of them for the most part.  In this Connecticut case, the girl was participating within the rules.

I think every high school athlete in every state is just playing by the rules in front of them. That's not the point. The point (as I see it anyway) is that unfair state rules (either banning those in transition until said transition is complete or allowing participation before it's begun) should be amended to make things more fair for ALL involved. Honestly, I don't see how that's even a controversy.

[GGGG]

I think every high school athlete in every state is just playing by the rules in front of them. That's not the point. The point (as I see it anyway) is that unfair state rules (either banning those in transition until said transition is complete or allowing participation before it's begun) should be amended to make things more fair for ALL involved. Honestly, I don't see how that's even a controversy.

I don't disagree with you.  I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

However there are some in this thread who would completely disallow anyone who is a former male compete as a female even if they completely transitioned.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't disagree with you.  I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

However there are some in this thread who would completely disallow anyone who is a former male compete as a female even if they completely transitioned.

I'm in total agreement with you that those who would ban males who are transitioned are being unfair - at least as unfair as allowing those who haven't started the process.

You (like other) say you "don't think it's that big of a deal". Are you equally  sanguine about banning the fully transitioned as you are about allowing participation for those who haven't begun the process? I see this as an uncommon or rare deal, but the underlying principle (IMO) is a very big deal.

[GGGG]

I'm in total agreement with you that those who would ban males who are transitioned are being unfair - at least as unfair as allowing those who haven't started the process.

You (like other) say you "don't think it's that big of a deal". Are you equally  sanguine about banning the fully transitioned as you are about allowing participation for those who haven't begun the process? I see this as an uncommon or rare deal, but the underlying principle (IMO) is a very big deal.

I think the need for a consistent, well reasoned standard is appropriate.  Where that sits in the transitioning process, I don't know.

My entire shrugging this off as "no big deal," is when people asked me "what if this were your son?"  I just wouldn't be all that upset about it.

[jutaw22mu]

I don't disagree with you.  I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

However there are some in this thread who would completely disallow anyone who is a former male compete as a female even if they completely transitioned.

So, in your eyes, it would be fair and totally acceptable if Tiger Woods transitioned to a female and began playing in the LPGA tour?

[GGGG]

So, in your eyes, it would be fair and totally acceptable if Tiger Woods transitioned to a female and began playing in the LPGA tour?

Since the LPGA allows for it, yes.

[Pakuni]

I think every high school athlete in every state is just playing by the rules in front of them. That's not the point. The point (as I see it anyway) is that unfair state rules (either banning those in transition until said transition is complete or allowing participation before it's begun) should be amended to make things more fair for ALL involved. Honestly, I don't see how that's even a controversy.

I think that's reasonable.
Nebraska recently enacted a rule by which a person transitioning can begin competing as the gender with which they identify after 1 year of hormone therapy.
Of course, both sides of the extremes were outraged.

[tower912]

So, in your eyes, it would be fair and totally acceptable if Tiger Woods transitioned to a female and began playing in the LPGA tour?

Even if he transitioned, he would still be a 40 something with a cranky back, bad knees, who has fought the chipping yips,  at the moment can't hit the driver 250 yards and has lost his putting touch,  who will be lucky to ever play 72 holes in a weekend again.    If he started transitioning now, by the time he would have finished the transition, nobody would be afraid of him.    Oh, and by the way, I predict Lexi Thompson is the next female professional golfer to compete in a men's event, following in the footsteps of Annika and Michelle Wie. 

[forgetful]

I think the need for a consistent, well reasoned standard is appropriate.  Where that sits in the transitioning process, I don't know.

My entire shrugging this off as "no big deal," is when people asked me "what if this were your son?"  I just wouldn't be all that upset about it.

I agree with largely everything you say on this issue.  But I still think the big question is:

How do we define gender for the purpose of athletic competitions?  Currently, the rules are essentially focused on reproductive anatomy, but that is both difficult to enforce in some cases and genuinely ambiguous.  It also affords, what people here are calling an "unfair advantage" based on the individuals actual genetic makeup.

[Pakuni]

I agree with largely everything you say on this issue.  But I still think the big question is:

How do we define gender for the purpose of athletic competitions?  Currently, the rules are essentially focused on reproductive anatomy, but that is both difficult to enforce in some cases and genuinely ambiguous. It also affords, what people here are calling an "unfair advantage" based on the individuals actual genetic makeup.

It does, but it's just one of several advantages - both God-given and man-given - some athletes have over others.

[B. McBannerson]

I gotta do what I gotta do.

It's that kind of mentality that causes problems here. 

[B. McBannerson]

Kidding aside, that's nothing like what Jimmy said.


I'm not excluding environmental factors as well - and I suspect the Kenyans' success is a result of interaction between natural and environmental factors - but numerous studies have shown physical differences between Kenyan runners and their non-Kenyan competitors.

Like this one, showing they have more elastic leg tendons, allowing them a stride with more height and power, but also with less contact time on the ground.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-012-2559-6/fulltext.html

Or this one, which found:
"For the Kenyan runners, it appears that their ectomorphic somatotype characterized by long, slender legs might provide advantages in biomechanical and metabolic economy/efficiency, resulting  in  enhanced  performance  in  middle-  and 
long-distance  events."
And
"Both the Kenyans and the Ethiopians have lived  for  millennia  at  moderate  altitude  (2000–2500 m) in the highlands of the Great Rift Valley. It is not illogical to assume that this chronic hypoxic exposure has conferred certain as-yet unidentified genetic and
phenotypical benefits that allow them to consistently train at altitude at running velocities (vLT and VO2max) that their on-altitude-based opponents do not seem to be able to achieve without overtraining. This ability to conduct  moderate-volume,  high-intensity  training at altitude on a consistent basis ultimately translates into exceptional running performance for the Kenyans and Ethiopians on descent to lower elevations."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yannis_Pitsiladis/publication/225064362_Kenyan_and_Ethiopian_Distance_Runners_What_Makes_Them_So_Good/links/54abb5f90cf2bce6aa1d9b69.pdf

For the record, both these studies are more recent than the one you cite.
And that's all I have to say about Kenyan runners.

Jimmy was basically talking about genetics, in a round about way without saying the word genetics.

Be careful of decency bias, even in science

[B. McBannerson]

I think "the trans people" are simply playing by the rules in front of them for the most part.  In this Connecticut case, the girl was participating within the rules.

And for that I agree with you.  The bigger question for me is whether the rules are fair and should be changed.  If they are changed, some will be outraged.  Others will say it is to ensure fairness.

[Pakuni]

Jimmy was basically talking about genetics, in a round about way without saying the word genetics.

No, he was talking about eugenics, which is not "genetics in a round about way."

Be careful of decency bias, even in science

Freudian slip?

[GGGG]

And for that I agree with you.  The bigger question for me is whether the rules are fair and should be changed.  If they are changed, some will be outraged.  Others will say it is to ensure fairness.

You don't agree with me. Earlier you claimed the second place finisher was the real champion.

[tower912]

It's that kind of mentality that causes problems here.

It sure has. 

[reinko]

I'm on pins and needles for all the posters who will be protesting and advocating for rules changes on this important and transcendent issue in their home state.

Please update us all on your progress.

[rocket surgeon]

It's that kind of mentality that causes problems here.

thankyouthanyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou