Which conference should MU be in?

[tower912]

Chico, you stated in another exceedingly long thread that you agreed somewhat with Majerus that MU should not be in the BEast.    Fair enough.   If not the BEast, where?   MVC?  A10?   A theoretical super Catholic conference that has been discussed for at least 20 years but has never gone past the speculation phase?   Or, when all of those are considered, is the BEast the best?   And remember, legend has it that MU was invited to join the BEast nearly 30 years ago.    So, where should MU be?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think I actually said I somewhat agree with him...I'm very torn.  It's great for MU in terms of scheduling and having the opportunity for top players.  My biggest concern is that if MU isn't hitting on all cylinders, the fall from top half to bottom half can happen almost overnight.  The league is so damn good there is no room for error, none.  It also means the climb back to the upper half is very difficult as well, so best never to get down there.

Now, that's a great thing if the university is willing to play ball and provide what is needed to be successful.  So far they have, though obviously you know I'm concerned about our approach with our head coach hire....risky and if it doesn't work out and we do fall to the bottom half, it's that much harder to get someone here to bring us back.

I've been incredibly pleased and surprised that we have been as successful as we have been in the Big East thus far.  We cannot rest on our laurels, G'Town, Pitts, Novas, UCONNs, etc are giong to fight to stay up there as well.  I see a committment by nearly all 16 teams to get into that upper part of the league, something I don't see with many other leagues.  Even South Florida by hiiring Heath is saying they're not going to just coast and be a football school.  St. John's is the one that baffles me.  That's not the case with a Penn State or Northwestern in the Big Ten, or any number of other bottom dwellers in other leagues that have a pecking order.

So for now, I'm fine with the Big East but believe we are in a much more fragile position today then we were 45 days ago in terms of staying in the upper half.

[tower912]

I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

[Sir Lawrence]

    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

Boston College, Seton Hall, Holy Cross, Creighton.  The Pope could just order it up.

[jce]

I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

I would not be surprised at all if this were the case in a decade due to the pressures being put on the conference from the football schools.  My guess is that ND would stick with them...replace them with SLU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I completely agree that the fall can be quick and devastating and spent much time before April 1 warning the TC haters to be careful what they wished for.    But it is Buzz' time now and we will see what happened.   MU has survived Al leaving, KO leaving, Dukiet, Dahmer, way overextending by buying all that property along Wells....    Even if Buzz fails, MU will survive.   It will be a tougher climb back up, but at least we will have something to talk about.   For the record, if the BEast were to split, I think a Catholic School Basketball conference would actually make a lot of sense, the starting up, administering, getting TV contracts and getting the Automatic bid to the Big Dance being obvious obstacles.    But MU, G-Town, SJU, PU, Dayton, SLU, 'Nova, Xavier, ND, DePaul would be a good starting roster.

Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.

In the Big East, there are 12 teams that are absolutely capable (talent wise) to go to the NCAA in any given year, but no way 12 go (nor should they).  In history, no more then 8 have gone.  When you think of a school like Syracuse missing two of the last three times (and the one they did go they had to win the conference tournament), that just says it all.  Or UCONN missing it.  Cincinnati, who dominated CUSA has yet to show up on the map for the Big East...that alone is scary.  How long will it take or are they just proving the point in how tough it is to get back up there?  Seton Hall...went to the NCAAs 2 of 3 years (including MU's first year in the league) under Louis Orr.  They fired him, they haven't been since (I'm not an Orr fan, but my point is that the fragile nature of this league is crazy).

I don't want to think much about the Catholic / Private league and all that, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me to break up the A-10, Big East and maybe even some Horizon League (Butler) schools to form a conference.  But then again, you're back into having say 10 schools all with that top tier only attitude.  That's great for competition, but many conferences seem to have the predictable deadweight to give it some balance year in and year out.

[4everwarriors]

Give me a frick'in break. This is the conference to be in, period. How many years did it take us to get here? Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left? The University has made the commitment but failed to strap it on completely with the head coach's hire.
However, now let's go forward and see if Buzz can both recruit and coach Big East athletes. If he can, then great, we got our man. If not, give him the quick hot air and get a basketball man in here who knows what he's doing, at all cost.
The problem is not the conference, but rather how you handle the opportunities the conference presents.

[79Warrior]

Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.


disagree on the Al front. what do you mean by survived? Continue to play basketball? Yes. Continue to be a top program in college basketball, absolutely not. The program staggered mightly after Al left. Raymonds barley hung on, Rick was in over his head and Dukiet killed it. MU disappeared from the national scene.

[ATWizJr]

Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, MU did survive Al leaving, though you could say it took 15 years to get it back.  We were also an independent.  We survived KO leaving, but we were in the MCC and then Great Midwest.   The Big East is a different animal.  I'd argue it was a lot easier to recover as an independent, MCC, Great Midwest or even CUSA team because there was a ton of room for error.


disagree on the Al front. what do you mean by survived? Continue to play basketball? Yes. Continue to be a top program in college basketball, absolutely not. The program staggered mightly after Al left. Raymonds barley hung on, Rick was in over his head and Dukiet killed it. MU disappeared from the national scene.

I think that's what I said...it took 15 years to come back.  Believe me, I think I've said on many occassions that what happened after Al left was nothing but downhill....it started slowly, picked up speed and then the bottom absolutely dropped out.  But in terms of surviving, we didn't end up like Loyola, on the ashpile of programs probably forever now.  Or we didn't even end up as DePaul.

[Pakuni]

Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)

Corrected.

Nothing like pining for lower expectations.
MU belongs in the Big East. Any notion that a bad year or two would permanently sink the program into the conference cellar is silly.
Georgetown, Villanova, Pitt, etc. all had some really down years over the past decade or so, yet didn't suffer that fate. Why MU would be any different, I'm not sure.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Give me a frick'in break. This is the conference to be in, period. How many years did it take us to get here? Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left? The University has made the commitment but failed to strap it on completely with the head coach's hire.
However, now let's go forward and see if Buzz can both recruit and coach Big East athletes. If he can, then great, we got our man. If not, give him the quick hot air and get a basketball man in here who knows what he's doing, at all cost.
The problem is not the conference, but rather how you handle the opportunities the conference presents.

I don't think anyone is saying to bail out of the Big East, but some are saying if we aren't willing to do what it takes, that might change the answer.

As long as MU is willing and committed to play at the top, then stay.  But if MU isn't, then what's the point.  Some would argue the latest hire puts that commitment into question (for Pakuni's sake and for clarity...I am not saying that....though I am quite nervous about the more fragile state the program's is in today then it was 45 days ago...whether that is reality or perception I don't know).

Some will argue you need to be in the best conference to be the best.....maybe.  Though certainly the Xavier's, Memphis', Gonzaga's, Wisconsin's, etc wouldn't necessarily bare that out.

And yes, G'Town, Nova, Pitt all had some down years, but not during the 16 team era of the Big East....that's a significant difference where none of us have enough history or data to see if teams can recover.  So far the haves and have nots seem to be fairly stable in the first three years.  Should be fun to watch and this coming season should be MU's 4th straight NCAA apperance and top half conference finish. After that......time will tell.

[mviale]

Lets take Rick's words at minimum - he is a jilted lover with Marquette and he could not get it done while here.

Insert  excuses.

[MUBasketball]

Now some want to bail just because a pretty boy left?

Haha, right on.

Some people baffle me. A lot of Crean critics on the board...then he leaves, and people think the sky is going to fall. Huh???

A lot of people seemed to think Crean wasn't that strong of a game coach. I think we all agree he was a solid recruiter (he made mistakes, everybody does). Well, Buzz is our man now. What does Buzz do well? Recruit. What annoys me to no end is the fact that everybody assumes he isn't a strong coach. Even if that's true, what's any different from the previous coach? Buzz hired a very solid staff, and I think he'll surprise his critics with his game coaching. He's bounced around, constantly moving up along the way. He's learned from a lot of different people and I'm sure has molded all that info over the years into his own ideas and philosophies.

He'll do a fine job, people need to relax and rally behind him.

[mviale]

agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee.  I am positive about the change.  I think Buzz will do well here.

[jce]

Let's not wait for the football pressures to possibly undo the BEast.  Let's shoot low now! (this is sarcasm)

I want to make this clear.  I don't think MU should leave the Big East.  I just don't think the BE survives its next football TV contract.

[ChicosBailBonds]

agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee. 

Really?

I like his staff, but think that's a bit of a stretch. 

[Niv Berkowitz]

No way do they bolt the BEast or look elsewhere just because the going got rough. If MU were traditionally a 10-20 year bottom feeder (see Northwestern - Big Ten), that's one thing. But we've been top half of the toughest hoops conference in the league. Is it a championship? No. But it's d@mned good ball and fun to watch and be a part of.

And most importantly, we've had the horses to compete. We know we can do it. Should we fail in the near future at all, a good administration would make necessary changes to get us back on top (or at least near the top). I'm hoping it doesn't come to that in my lifetime.

5-10 years down the road, though, I think the BEast as we know it will be no longer due to the demands of football. The non-football teams will get shut out. Or, and I don't know what can/can't be done legally about this, but maybe the league will force a couple bottom feeders out, no matter who they may be. DePaul anyone?

[mviale]

Really?

I like his staff, but think that's a bit of a stretch. 

I cannot recall a more experienced staff.  These guys are going to gel and create a great class for 09-10. However, I expect to lose some of them for head coaching positions. I may be an optimist, but I think we have a good group.

[THEGYMBAR]

Obviously the BE is where we all would like to be. My only concern is that MU makes the right decisions to compete. The top programs in BE are that because the school's make it a priority. In the past coaching changes the conference was a much easier adjustment for the new coach.

In my opinion TC left because he knew firsthand exactly how tough the BE can be. Coaching against top coaches/programs twice a week is not for the weak of heart. This is not a rip on Buzz, but hopefully his lack of experience causes him to coach with no fear. TC coached and over coached trying to prove his coaching strengths.

The BE is won 75% by great players. You do not see BE won by the likes of Dick Bennett who just coaches. MU has to recruit BE players to compete. That is a major task and the school needs to help Buzz. All along I have been saying we need studs...we need studs ASAP.

[ATWizJr]

I know some of the posters on this board are unhappy with the hire and some may be waiting for Buzz to fail so that they can say "I told you so".

But the redundant whining is off the charts.

MU has made it a priority to compete at the highest level.  In view of the facilities and the ongoing funding of the program there can be no denying this.

Posters cannot in one breath say "this is not a rip on Buzz" and then in the next cite what they perceive to be his lack of experience.  That is ripping on Buzz and is disingenuous.

Posters claim that the BE is won 75% with players(I think we'd all like to see the empirical evidence on that) then express your unhappiness tht MU hired an experienced recruiter.

It is not a new idea that we need studs.

If Buzz is a bad hire we'll know soon enough, it won't be our first bad hire, we will survive it if it is, and thrive in the BEast, and you will still have your moment of glory in the sun and be able to say that you were right.

[Niv Berkowitz]

So ATWiz, if some of us are concerened about Buzz's lack of experience and the fact the school didn't do it's best in at least talking to candidates, we should not say anything because it shows we aren't supporting the school. In fact, we might even hurt your feelings and the feelings of others at MU.

I do see your point, though. If the Buzz hire is bad, we'll know soon enough and "survive" if it is. You're exactly right. I mean, if the Buzz hire IS bad, it will just set the program back 3-5 years....in a conference as difficult as the B.East. That's absolutely no reason of concern whatsoever.

I stand corrected.

[HarveysWallbangers]

agreed MUBBall - buzz hired one of the best staffs ever assembled in Milwaukee.  I am positive about the change.  I think Buzz will do well here.

Can you tell me who the #1 assistant is because I'd kind of like to know who is on Cottingham's new short list.

[DegenerateDish]

People who think MU would want to form a Catholic League because Crean left is pure foolishness and severely shortsighted.

Those who think that way are obviously not looking at the long term picture. MU will not be in the Big East (as it's presently formed) 10 years from now. It will not happen. Period.

With everything in life, there is one thing that will drive this decision. $$$. The reality is that between the next negotiations of a Big East football tv contract, and the upcoming BCS tv negotiations will not work in MU's favor. Like it or not, college basketball is the stepchild to college football. Believe it or not, the success of Rutgers football could bring about the next big conference shake up. The Big 11 and ACC are eyeing Rutgers very closely right now.

From the basketball standpoint, 16 teams=16 programs looking for success each year, against top AND mid heavy talent. Schools like Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul are going to have tough decisions to make in the next two-three years. Unless they can hit excellent recruiting classes over that time, they're all looking at coaching changes and the continued uphill battle against annual conference powers. In a 12 team league, that task isn't as daunting. When you have 9 top 25 teams, all in your conference and ahead of you, that's not a good situation to be in. Plus coaching buyouts and changes every four-five years are going to happen to the non-powers in the BE. Coaching buyouts cost $$$, especially when you don't have football.

Back to Marquette...if Buzz doesn't work out, could MU fall into that group? It seems very possible. The BE brings some good things. I like seeing Syracuse, UConn, Pitt on our sked. Do I expect to see them on the sked ten years from now? No way. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so.

[nyg]

Good posts and most agree that it comes down to who Buzz recruits for 2009.  Eric Williams a great start, but the three additional slots are critical.  If Buzz can't bring in three more highly rated recruits, MU will be in real trouble.  If Buzz does, then we should be competitive in BE following the loss of the three amigos. Stay in BE, the best B-ball conference.

Just looking at who Georgetown has just recruited for 2008 and 2009 is unreal. Heck Georgetown just received a commitment form Deshawn Riley from Michigan one of the best centers in 2009 class. They have centers Greg Monroe and Henry Sims coming in 2008.  Put in Louisville's 2008 class and now West Va. getting Ebanks, wow. Can continue with UCONN, PITT, Syracuse and now even Rutgers, but thats been discussed on other threads.

But, Buzz was hired to get these type of recruits, so lets sit back and watch.