MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Not A Serious Person on January 20, 2020, 11:01:25 AM
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Cheeks post got me motivated to scrap data from Kenpom's site (I have a subscription so I scrapped a complete set of data). You might have seen some of the full season charts I posted in other threads.
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The charts below are game-by-game ratings back to 2011 when Ken started offering this data on his site. I have an email into him to get the game-by-game rankings back to 1997. If he shares, I will update these charts accordingly.
(I will do this over several posts to keep the ideas separate and easier to follow.)
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First, a word about the ratings.
Since 2011 Kenpom has offered a daily ratings update. What is posted here are MU's ratings the day of the game, so before MU plays, and everyone else that day. The results of that day's game are reflected in the next plot point.
Remember that the ratings move not only on MUs wins and losses, but teams ranked near us as well. So, if MU does not play for a week, and teams ranked just above us lose, we move up without doing anything. Conversely, if we don't play for a week and teams just below us win, we move down without doing anything. In other words, the rest of the D1 teams are not stationary when calculating daily ratings.
Also, early season ratings are more volatile than later ratings. KenPom tries to compensate for this and I think he does as good a job as anyone. That said, the early season data does bounce around a lot.
Thoughts/ideas/comments are welcome.
Trolling is not.
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The next chart shows MU's rating, game-by-game during the six seasons of Wojo. It includes Saturday's Georgetown win. Each season is a different color.
I highlighted the games that marked season extremes. The worst ranking during the Wojo era was Wojo's rookie season when MU was #124 on March 7, 2015.
The best ranking was #12 On Nov 17, 2019, the day MU lost to Bucky. Interestingly, this was better than all last year, when the media polls had MU as high as #10.
Note the general season-by-season downward (getting better) trend. I'm going to disagree with many in the other thread, and note the downward trend is about recruiting and the quality of players on the roster, not coaching ability.
Recruiting is getting even better. MU is believed to have the best incoming class in the Big East, and by some measures, a top 10 class ("Inside the Big East" on FS1 did a segment on MU's incoming class this past weekend and said this)
(https://snipboard.io/rSCjFn.jpg)
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If the season to season trend, is not about coaching ability but recruiting, how do we measure coaching ability?
One way is shown next. It shows the change in the game-by-game rating from week one. Each season is a different color and the thick black line is the average for the Wojo era.
Does this team get better or worse as the season progresses? This tells us a lot about the coach's ability, and injuries too.
I see an interesting pattern. The blue (2015) and orange (2016) lines were Wojo's first two seasons. They trended higher, meaning the team's rankings progressively worsened as the season progressed. In other words, Wojo struggled as a coach.
But Wojo has gotten better. See 2017 (red), 2018 (cyan) and 2019 (green). Note the uptrend last year after game 22 (the green line at -10). That was the Nova game when Markus got hurt, and everything started to unravel after that.
Bottom line,
* Wojo is progressively getting better as a recruiter (the downward trend from season to season)
* And as a coach, after the first two seasons, he teams stopped trending worse as the season progressed and, adjusting for injuries, is getting better as a coach.
What about this season? The brown line (2020), through game 18 (Georgetown) is +16 (meaning we are rated 16 spots worse than week 1 this year). Is he regressing? Maybe. But, a lot of this jump was losing to Providence at home and at Seton Hall, which could be reversed in the next few days. Also, we have at least 14 more games (12 scheduled and at least 1 BET and one post-season game remaining). So this season is still very much a work in progress.
(https://snipboard.io/dfEoje.jpg)
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How about Buzz? As noted in the first post, daily ratings started in 2011. So, unless I get more data from KenPom, I only have the last four seasons of Buzz.
Note from 2012 to 2014, the season-by-season rankings were going higher (worsening). This means that Buzz hit a ceiling on his recruiting in 2012. But that ceiling was a top 10 program. Nevertheless, recruiting worsened after 2012.
(https://snipboard.io/SJUOE9.jpg)
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The final chart shows the change in ratings for the last four seasons. It graphically shows what we all know, that Buzz's last season was a coaching disaster, supporting the claim that he quit on the season.
Not surprising, he bolted to VT after that year.
(https://snipboard.io/IF4D3O.jpg)
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How about Buzz? As noted in the first post, daily ratings started in 2011. So, unless I get more data from KenPom, I only have the last four seasons of Buzz.
Note from 2012 to 2014, the season-by-season rankings were going higher (worsening). This means that Buzz hit a ceiling on his recruiting in 2012. But that ceiling was a top 10 program. Never the less, recruiting worsened after 2012.
Larry Williams start date: 1/2/2012.
Before Cheeks steps in with another New Testament chapter, factually, there is no denying things changed dramatically in the type of kid allowed to enter MU athletic teams at that time. It’s why Wojo is here and Buzz isn’t.
These changes took Buzz out of his recruiting network and were the reason he left. It isn’t a Buzz vs. Wojo linear comparison. The university changed and Wojo fit the new profile.
It’s also the reason why there is a rift in the fan base on expectations. Some feel we should be a Top 10 program. Others are happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64. The BOT has determined the latter is the direction...and they have rewarded Wojo twice for doing just that with extensions. It’s really that simple. It was a bet on the Duke model.
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Thanks for taking the time to chart all of this data. No doubt Buzz's last year at MU was a complete outlier. In his 11 years at MU and VaTech, that 2014 team was his 2nd worst - with only his Year 1 team at VaTech being worse (which he inherited a team that went 2-16 in the ACC the prior year.)
As for Wojo? I personally don't think a coach could have done a worse job his first two years at MU, so, he set the bar awfully low for showing improvement. Will be interesting to see how he fares next season without the generational player, Markus, on the roster. On the positive, he will have had 6 full years of experience to learn from.
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It’s also the reason why there is a rift in the fan base on expectations. Some feel we should be a Top 10 program. Others are happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64. The BOT has determined the latter is the direction...and they have rewarded Wojo twice for doing just that with extensions. It’s really that simple. It was a bet on the Duke model.
I disagree with two big assumptions/implications here (which get repeated over and over):
1) That the only way for MU to be a Top 10 program is to lower its standards for
admissions, academics or off-court issues; and
2) That the board/fans are "happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64"
For starters, most Top 10 programs don't depend on junior college transfers to the degree that Buzz Williams did at Marquette. In fact, he had an unusual run of success over the course of four seasons (between 2008-09 and 2011-12) with recruits like Jimmy Butler, Darius Johnson-Odom, Dwight Buycks and Jae Crowder. It's fair to say he hasn't approached that level since.
Beyond that, Villanova -- a private, Catholic university ranked among the Top 100 nationally just like Marquette -- has managed to win two national titles while maintaining a perfect 1000 APR score for academics.
https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx (https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx)
Finally, Wojo getting an extension doesn't mean the board or fans have no higher expectations than simply making the NCAA tournament. Clearly, he's met baseline expectations/metrics so far. But I, for one, along with every single MU fan I know, want and expect postseason success.
Who really believes the only two alternatives are either "Let things slide a little with Buzz and win" or "Run a clean program and be mediocre"? To me, that's a false choice.
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I disagree with two big assumptions/implications here (which get repeated over and over):
1) That the only way for MU to be a Top 10 program is to lower its standards for
admissions, academics or off-court issues; and
2) That the board/fans are "happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64"
For starters, most Top 10 programs don't depend on junior college transfers to the degree that Buzz Williams did at Marquette. In fact, he had an unusual run of success over the course of four seasons (between 2008-09 and 2011-12) with recruits like Jimmy Butler, Darius Johnson-Odom, Dwight Buycks and Jae Crowder. It's fair to say he hasn't approached that level since.
Beyond that, Villanova -- a private, Catholic university ranked among the Top 100 nationally just like Marquette -- has managed to win two national titles while maintaining a perfect 1000 APR score for academics.
https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx (https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx)
Finally, Wojo getting an extension doesn't mean the board or fans have no higher expectations than simply making the NCAA tournament. Clearly, he's met baseline expectations/metrics so far. But I, for one, along with every single MU fan I know, want and expect postseason success.
Who really believes the only two alternatives are either "Let things slide a little with Buzz and win" or "Run a clean program and be mediocre"? To me, that's a false choice.
I never said I agreed or disagreed. I said the fan base is split this way which is why we have Groundhog Day on Scoop everyday.
That said, at least 50% of KPom’s Top 20 are well-known or highly rumored cheaters. If the NCAA lived its mission, we’d have higher odds of collecting the Golden Ticket. Until then, we are Duke without the jeweler.
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As for Wojo? I personally don't think a coach could have done a worse job his first two years at MU,
You obviously did not live through the Bob Dukiet years.....
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Thanks for taking the time to chart all of this data. No doubt Buzz's last year at MU was a complete outlier. In his 11 years at MU and VaTech, that 2014 team was his 2nd worst - with only his Year 1 team at VaTech being worse (which he inherited a team that went 2-16 in the ACC the prior year.)
As for Wojo? I personally don't think a coach could have done a worse job his first two years at MU, so, he set the bar awfully low for showing improvement. Will be interesting to see how he fares next season without the generational player, Markus, on the roster. On the positive, he will have had 6 full years of experience to learn from.
Bill Chandler: 11-7 & 11-8
Tex Winter: 12-14 & 13-11
Jack Nagle: 11-15 & 24-3
Eddie Hickey: 23-6 & 13-12
Al McGuire: 8-18 & 14-12
Bob Dukiet: 6-13 & 10-18
Kevin O'Neil: 15-14 & 11-18
Tom Crean: 15-14 & 15:14
Wojo: 13-19 & 20-13
Plenty of coaches did worse and with much easier schedules
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Larry Williams start date: 1/2/2012.
Before Cheeks steps in with another New Testament chapter, factually, there is no denying things changed dramatically in the type of kid allowed to enter MU athletic teams at that time. It’s why Wojo is here and Buzz isn’t.
These changes took Buzz out of his recruiting network and were the reason he left. It isn’t a Buzz vs. Wojo linear comparison. The university changed and Wojo fit the new profile.
Except next year's class is one of the best incoming classes in MU history, the highest-rated BE class and a top 10 overall class by some measures.
How did this happen given your argument?
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It’s also the reason why there is a rift in the fan base on expectations. Some feel we should be a Top 10 program. Others are happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64.
From my perspective, it seems there's a plurality - if not majority - of Marquette fans that fall somewhere in between.
There's a cadre that believe anything short of a 70s revival is failure, and a similar group that are content to not be DePaul.
I think most of us expect MU to be in the tournament most years, get to the second weekend on occasion and consistently in the top half of the Big East.
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Except next year's class is one of the best incoming classes in MU history, the highest-rated BE class and a top 10 overall class by some measures.
How did this happen given your argument?
Just curious......Does KenPom account for transfers like the Hausers or guys that are playing through injuries like Theo, Koby, and Jayce ?
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Larry Williams start date: 1/2/2012.
Before Cheeks steps in with another New Testament chapter, factually, there is no denying things changed dramatically in the type of kid allowed to enter MU athletic teams at that time. It’s why Wojo is here and Buzz isn’t.
These changes took Buzz out of his recruiting network and were the reason he left. It isn’t a Buzz vs. Wojo linear comparison. The university changed and Wojo fit the new profile.
It’s also the reason why there is a rift in the fan base on expectations. Some feel we should be a Top 10 program. Others are happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64. The BOT has determined the latter is the direction...and they have rewarded Wojo twice for doing just that with extensions. It’s really that simple. It was a bet on the Duke model.
Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph. It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field. I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice. The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly. Requires patience. And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program.
Will people have the patience?
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I disagree with two big assumptions/implications here (which get repeated over and over):
1) That the only way for MU to be a Top 10 program is to lower its standards for
admissions, academics or off-court issues; and
2) That the board/fans are "happy with a .500 BE record and making the field of 64"
For starters, most Top 10 programs don't depend on junior college transfers to the degree that Buzz Williams did at Marquette. In fact, he had an unusual run of success over the course of four seasons (between 2008-09 and 2011-12) with recruits like Jimmy Butler, Darius Johnson-Odom, Dwight Buycks and Jae Crowder. It's fair to say he hasn't approached that level since.
Beyond that, Villanova -- a private, Catholic university ranked among the Top 100 nationally just like Marquette -- has managed to win two national titles while maintaining a perfect 1000 APR score for academics.
https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx (https://villanova.com/news/2018/5/23/Villanova_Student_Athletes_Make_the_Grade_in_Latest_APR_Data.aspx)
Finally, Wojo getting an extension doesn't mean the board or fans have no higher expectations than simply making the NCAA tournament. Clearly, he's met baseline expectations/metrics so far. But I, for one, along with every single MU fan I know, want and expect postseason success.
Who really believes the only two alternatives are either "Let things slide a little with Buzz and win" or "Run a clean program and be mediocre"? To me, that's a false choice.
Amen brother Marcus.
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Bill Chandler: 11-7 & 11-8
Tex Winter: 12-14 & 13-11
Jack Nagle: 11-15 & 24-3
Eddie Hickey: 23-6 & 13-12
Al McGuire: 8-18 & 14-12
Bob Dukiet: 6-13 & 10-18
Kevin O'Neil: 15-14 & 11-18
Tom Crean: 15-14 & 15:14
Wojo: 13-19 & 20-13
Plenty of coaches did worse and with much easier schedules
My post was speaking real time. As in the day Wojo walked into the MU job. Of course I knew there were coaches at MU who turned in worse records their first two years.
Wojo’s coaching and decision-making were atrocious Years 1 and 2. He’s improved some since that time.
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Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph. It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field. I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice. The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly. Requires patience. And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program.
Will people have the patience?
Good stuff on both of these. Culture is a tough thing to change and takes a lot of effort and consistency over time.
A friend of mine (talking business over the weekend) said the quick solution is more often than not an unethical solution.
Take the time to build it right!
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I never said I agreed or disagreed. I said the fan base is split this way which is why we have Groundhog Day on Scoop everyday.
That said, at least 50% of KPom’s Top 20 are well-known or highly rumored cheaters. If the NCAA lived its mission, we’d have higher odds of collecting the Golden Ticket. Until then, we are Duke without the jeweler.
Marquettes jeweler is starting to get better quality gems.
I agree with the Duke analogy, and who better to recreate Dukes culture, playing style, and success at Marquette, than someone who lived it for a large portion of his life.
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My post was speaking real time. As in the day Wojo walked into the MU job. Of course I knew there were coaches at MU who turned in worse records their first two years.
Wojo’s coaching and decision-making were atrocious Years 1 and 2. He’s improved some since that time.
Year 2 when he won 20 games? If that's atrocious then sign me up to stay on board for when he puts together full seasons of good decision making plus better talent.
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Good stuff on both of these. Culture is a tough thing to change and takes a lot of effort and consistency over time.
A friend of mine (talking business over the weekend) said the quick solution is more often than not an unethical solution.
Take the time to build it right!
Your friends comment could apply to so many important issues in the world today. It was an obvious yet profound statement.
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Marquettes jeweler is starting to get better quality gems.
I agree with the Duke analogy, and who better to recreate Dukes culture, playing style, and success at Marquette, than someone who lived it for a large portion of his life.
And Duke is known to many as: Douche
Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism. No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current “traditional trajectory.”
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Your friends comment could apply to so many important issues in the world today. It was an obvious yet profound statement.
Thanks! He's a great guy that I hired away from my past employer. He's very ethical and left for the same reason I did. I really liked hearing that.
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Year 2 when he won 20 games? If that's atrocious then sign me up to stay on board for when he puts together full seasons of good decision making plus better talent.
He won 20 games and finished ~100th in KenPom, missed the NIT, with a one and done on roster - inexplicably trying to force Haanif Cheatham into the PG slot, while massively underutilizing JJJ.
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He won 20 games and finished ~100th in KenPom, missed the NIT, with a one and done on roster - inexplicably trying to force Haanif Cheatham into the PG slot, while massively underutilizing JJJ.
I didn't say it wasn't bad decision making just said that if he won 20 games making atrocious decisions sign me up for when all the decisions become good
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I didn't say it wasn't bad decision making just said that if he won 20 games making atrocious decisions sign me up for when all the decisions become good
My bad. Of course no coach is going to press all the right buttons, just felt he really pressed a lot of wrong ones those first couple of years. This is his best year of coaching since at MU IMO.
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And Duke is known to many as: Douche
Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism. No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current “traditional trajectory.”
I'm finally starting to figure you out....
You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.
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I'm finally starting to figure you out....
You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.
You're thinking of muguru
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My post was speaking real time. As in the day Wojo walked into the MU job. Of course I knew there were coaches at MU who turned in worse records their first two years.
Wojo’s coaching and decision-making were atrocious Years 1 and 2. He’s improved some since that time.
1. You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes. Burton and Dawson. What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left.
What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game. Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did. What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else. Regardless Burton gave it 8 games. Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.
What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time. Last guy off the bench before Walkons. Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench. He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT. he had a year off to improve his game and didn't. Can't be that big of a mistake. Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson?
2. Another one you throw out. Wojo stunted JJJ growth. Actually the reverse. JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year. Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time. He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt. JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive. He was very passive.
if we look at 2015, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double. Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had. And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim.
**Noticed that I stated 2020 instead of 2015 when referencing Ellenson as having a double double.
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I'm finally starting to figure you out....
You're that guy who won't be satisfied no matter what.
What was your first clue? My username?
P.S. - A jeweler can get the best gems, but if he doesn't know how to sell them, they aren't very valuable.
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Except next year's class is one of the best incoming classes in MU history, the highest-rated BE class and a top 10 overall class by some measures.
How did this happen given your argument?
Is Buzz Williams still recruiting for MU? That's my point. Things changed at MU and it didn't mesh with Buzz's strength. So, Buzz and MU moved on to some place and to some one who do.
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Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.
At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).
Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.
Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.
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1. You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes. Burton and Dawson. What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left.
What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game. Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did. What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else. Regardless Burton gave it 8 games. Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.
What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time. Last guy off the bench before Walkons. Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench. He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT. he had a year off to improve his game and didn't. Can't be that big of a mistake. Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson?
2. Another one you throw out. Wojo stunted JJJ growth. Actually the reverse. JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year. Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time. He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt. JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive. He was very passive.
if we look at 2020, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double. Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had. And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim.
Those facts don't fit some peoples narrative. Knock it off.
Wojo came from a school that doesn't get many 5 star recruits, so he doesn't have any idea how to assess, develop, and utilize real talent.
It's a pity......He seems like a nice guy.
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1. You have spoken ad nauseam on two mistakes. Burton and Dawson. What we can look at is data under Buzz and data after they left.
What we saw under Buzz for Burton is:
He only started 3 games and only played 12mins/game. Wojo increased his on court time by 33% so he was giving him more time than Buzz did. What we don't know is if any of the offcourt issue were impacting his prep and practice which caused Wojo to give the start to someone else. Regardless Burton gave it 8 games. Seems like someone who wanted out of town for personal reasons.
What we saw with Dawson:
Buzz gave him zero time. Last guy off the bench before Walkons. Under Wojo he was the last guy off the bench. He transferred and still wasn't high major material with more PT. he had a year off to improve his game and didn't. Can't be that big of a mistake. Oh and who recruited your boy Derrick Wilson?
2. Another one you throw out. Wojo stunted JJJ growth. Actually the reverse. JJJ, whose form was broke, went from 21% 3pt shooter his Sophomore year to a 38% shooter his junior and senior year. Assists/Game increased by a full assist with only 5 extra minutes of time. He also developed a midrange jumper and wasn't a curl to the right every attempt. JJJ issue was he wasn't aggressive. He was very passive.
if we look at 2020, Wojo's first big recruit averaged a near double double. Cheatham was the best scoring PG option we had. And there was a little utilized player who turned into a major contributor by his senior year in Anim.
Agree to disagree. Won't re-litigate my reasons. The "results" of Year 1 and 2 speak for themselves.
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Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph. It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field. I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice. The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly. Requires patience. And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program.
Will people have the patience?
I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy".
As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job. He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it.
But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.
I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years.
With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.
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Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.
At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).
Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.
Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.
A jeweler doesn't cut gems, a gem cutter does.
A jeweler takes gems of various quality and places them in settings that show them off to their best effect. The better the quality of the gems, the easier it is to achieve a high quality result in the finished piece.
Wojo is the jeweler, and he's got a batch of fine gems this year, and another batch arriving next year.
The finished product will depend on how he places them and on whether any of them get chipped before they get placed in their setting.
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A jeweler doesn't cut gems, a gem cutter does.
A jeweler takes gems of various quality and places them in settings that show them off to their best effect. The better the quality of the gems, the easier it is to achieve a high quality result in the finished piece.
Wojo is the jeweler, and he's got a batch of fine gems this year, and another batch arriving next year.
The finished product will depend on how he places them and on whether any of them get chipped before they get placed in their setting.
Solid gold. Pun intended.
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Frankly, the reference to "Duke without the jeweler" is confusing.
At first, I thought this meant Marquette is Duke without the postseason success (in other words, a program that's steered clear of scandal but doesn't have any NCAA championship rings to show for it).
Another poster apparently thought "the jeweler" referred to the coach. So Duke without the jeweler would be a basketball program without someone who can transform rough, uncut stones (low-ranked recruits?) into brilliant gems. Except for the fact that Duke pretty much only recruits finished diamonds.
Then there's a literal connection between Duke and a jeweler -- when the NCAA investigated former Duke player Lance Thomas for obtaining $100,000 worth of jewelry during his senior year at Duke.
Double entendre: All of the above but with Capel coming back to Duke, things changed at Duke. One and Dones we're now okay. Lance Thomas. Zion.
The fact that so many are debating this means I earned my keep. Please send BnC coupons to my Paypal as my reward.
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I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy".
As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job. He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it.
But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.
I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years.
With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.
All of those players you mention essentially recommitted you MU after Wojo was named head coach. They could have transferred or asked for their release from NLI.
What was the sense in Wojo’s Year 1 approach? Why bring in Carlino? Why max Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson?
My approach would have been to Max this starting lineup:
1 - Duane
2 - Dawson
3 - JJJ
4 - Burton
5 - Luke
I tend to think if that team had the luxury of playing 60 games together as a consistent starting lineup, that by the end of Year 2 they are NCAA team and by end of Year 3 an NCAA team that could make some noise.
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Dr....I agree with most of this post until some of the last paragraph. It's not that people are "happy" with a .500 BE record and making the field. I think some of us have higher standards that believe we can recruit a certain way AND do well...it's not an either or choice. The challenge is that it cannot be done overnight and will take a massive cultural change and years of getting those types of kids to do it properly. Requires patience. And yes, it causes a rift, but if it works the upside is fantastic for the school and program.
Will people have the patience?
You only asked one of a two part question. "Will people have the patience AND will Wojo be able to produce given the time?" If only it was as simple as being patient; MU would have given Wojo a long term contract by now and we'd seeing Final Fours every other year.
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I am actually in agreement with all of this. Maybe "okay" is a better word than "happy".
As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job. He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it.
But, to again regurgitate my long buried dead horse opus....unlike some here who thought Buzz left a full closet...or those who maintain it was half full...Wojo should have come in and Pole Whacked from Day 1. I was on an island back then, except with Carolyn Kieger.
I believe time has proven me correct--he should have cleaned the closet and replaced it with his style sooner than later. I mean, did anyone really think Mayo, Dawson, Taylor, Burton, Cohen, Noskowiak, etc we're going to stick at MU? I didn't...but Wojo did very good job piecing that team together, or what was left of it. MU was going to be bad no matter what...but it set the rebuild back a couple of years.
With the delay and Hausergate, I said this past November was a big test for me on Wojo. Tough lineup of games and the recruiting class. He did very well with both.
Just a few things. Mayo never played for Wojo. He left in July of 2014 to play professionally. I don't believe Wojo had truly kept a spot for Noskowiak. Nick was having issues in Feb 2015 so it was a full 6 months before he would have joined the program. Wojo just waited for him to have bigger issue to cut ties.
What you are forgetting is that Buzz left in March of 2014 and unfortunately most if not all of the quality players are signed by then for 2014-2015 (Wojo season one). Spring signing ended on April 1, 2014, which was the day Wojo was announced as head coach. It wasn't like Wojo could cut bait and fill in the spots with his choice of player. Also MU had three signed players de-commit (Ahmed Hill, Shayok and the center who later transferred under Buzz). Cohen was the only Buzz recruit that started his career under Wojo (Fisher was there under Buzz but had to sit out). If he cut Burton, Taylor, Dawson, his rotation would have been 7 players from the 10 scholarship players he had. After Dawson and Burton left he only had 8 scholarship players. How much more could he have cut?
He went out and got Carlino to get us some chance at winning games. What would have happened sans Carlino that year? We hear how horrible the year was but without Carlino we would have been significantly worse. Had Burton stayed the full year we might have been in better shape. Dawson was not the answer. No matter what one poster says he wouldn't have made things better and Burton was leaving no matter what.
Going into 2015-16 season he went out and brought in Ellenson, Anim, Heldt, Haanif, and Carter. He also had Rowsey sitting out for a transfer. Not a horrible class for one year at MU and people wondering what the Big East/MU was going to be.
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Just a few things. Mayo never played for Wojo. He left in July of 2014 to play professionally. I don't believe Wojo had truly kept a spot for Noskowiak. Nick was having issues in Feb 2015 so it was a full 6 months before he would have joined the program. Wojo just waited for him to have bigger issue to cut ties.
What you are forgetting is that Buzz left in March of 2014 and unfortunately most if not all of the quality players are signed by then for 2014-2015 (Wojo season one). Spring signing ended on April 1, 2014, which was the day Wojo was announced as head coach. It wasn't like Wojo could cut bait and fill in the spots with his choice of player. Also MU had three signed players de-commit (Ahmed Hill, Shayok and the center who later transferred under Buzz). Cohen was the only Buzz recruit that started his career under Wojo (Fisher was there under Buzz but had to sit out). If he cut Burton, Taylor, Dawson, his rotation would have been 7 players from the 10 scholarship players he had. After Dawson and Burton left he only had 8 scholarship players. How much more could he have cut?
He went out and got Carlino to get us some chance at winning games. What would have happened sans Carlino that year? We hear how horrible the year was but without Carlino we would have been significantly worse. Had Burton stayed the full year we might have been in better shape. Dawson was not the answer. No matter what one poster says he wouldn't have made things better and Burton was leaving no matter what.
Going into 2015-16 season he went out and brought in Ellenson, Anim, Heldt, Haanif, and Carter. He also had Rowsey sitting out for a transfer. Not a horrible class for one year at MU and people wondering what the Big East/MU was going to be.
Would you please stop providing facts and reasonable analysis when reviewing Wojos tenure as Marquettes head coach. You're starting to make me think I'm not crazy.
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And Duke is known to many as: Douche
Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism. No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current “traditional trajectory.”
So now you don't want Wojo to succeed because of the association with Duke? Just say you hate him, want him fired for personal reasons and move on.
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Good stuff on both of these. Culture is a tough thing to change and takes a lot of effort and consistency over time.
A friend of mine (talking business over the weekend) said the quick solution is more often than not an unethical solution.
Take the time to build it right!
I agree in general. It is really tough to turn an Aircraft Carrier. Culture has to be bought in by all, including the fans....that makes it even tougher.
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And Duke is known to many as: Douche
Perhaps that stems from jealousy. Or from perception of privilege. Or arrogance. Or elitism. No wonder why Cheeks is obsessed with the current “traditional trajectory.”
Honest question for you and others
How many of you don’t like Wojo or never gave him a chance from day one because he went to Duke? How much has that colored your views?
I’d ask the same about Larry Williams and going to Notre Dame.
Feels like some of these guys were down 0-2 in the count before they even stepped into the batter’s box.
I see what you tried to do at the end, and it won’t work. Look at our recruits...not playing the “traditional” nonsense game with you or anyone else. Traditional means sound basketball players in the fundamental sense. Not athletes first, but traditional basketball players first. The other attribution which was nothing but horse hockey is more than proven wrong again by this recruiting class...again. That definition will not hunt and was started by the same group of folks that want to play that card. No dice then and certainly not now.
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All of those players you mention essentially recommitted you MU after Wojo was named head coach. They could have transferred or asked for their release from NLI.
What was the sense in Wojo’s Year 1 approach? Why bring in Carlino? Why max Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson?
My approach would have been to Max this starting lineup:
1 - Duane
2 - Dawson
3 - JJJ
4 - Burton
5 - Luke
I tend to think if that team had the luxury of playing 60 games together as a consistent starting lineup, that by the end of Year 2 they are NCAA team and by end of Year 3 an NCAA team that could make some noise.
What is your obsession with Dawson? Burton hardly played under Buzz....why? Etc etc
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So now you don't want Wojo to succeed because of the association with Duke? Just say you hate him, want him fired for personal reasons and move on.
If he did that, it would make all the hard work and twisted logic he invested in tearing Wojo down nothing but a foolish waste of time.
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If he did that, it would make all the hard work and twisted logic he invested in tearing Wojo down nothing but a foolish waste of time.
Speaking of wasting time. 25 posts per day on average. In addition to your other account. #unhinged
There is no “twisted logic.” We share a different opinion. You think Wojo is a “jeweler” and the second coming of Coach K. I think he’s a mediocre coach, who was awful his first couple of years.
I always want MU to win. I compliment Wojo when/where I see fit and criticize the same.
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Speaking of wasting time. 25 posts per day on average. In addition to your other account. #unhinged
There is no “twisted logic.” We share a different opinion. You think Wojo is a “jeweler” and the second coming of Coach K. I think he’s a mediocre coach, who was awful his first couple of years.
I always want MU to win. I compliment Wojo when/where I see fit and criticize the same.
To be fair to Ners, this iteration of him has been much more reasonable.
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To be fair to Ners, this iteration of him has been much more reasonable.
Thanks Jesu84. Think it is fair to say both “sides” of the Wojo debate have moved more to the middle from the former extreme points of view.
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Speaking of wasting time. 25 posts per day on average. In addition to your other account. #unhinged
There is no “twisted logic.” We share a different opinion. You think Wojo is a “jeweler” and the second coming of Coach K. I think he’s a mediocre coach, who was awful his first couple of years.
I always want MU to win. I compliment Wojo when/where I see fit and criticize the same.
First off...... You actually count my posts???? Creepy.
Second...... Considering all the facts and circumstances from the time of his hiring up to now, I think Wojo has delivered an acceptable level of success. I have never embellished his record.
Third.....You do everything in your power to minimize the challenges Wojo faced when he was hired, as well as his accomplishments over his tenure.
Own up to who and what you are.
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First off...... You actually count my posts???? Creepy.
Second...... Considering all the facts and circumstances from the time of his hiring up to now, I think Wojo has delivered an acceptable level of success. I have never embellished his record.
Third.....You do everything in your power to minimize the challenges Wojo faced when he was hired, as well as his accomplishments over his tenure.
Own up to who and what you are.
I've told him I'll be in Houston end of Feb for a wedding...happy to meet with you Ners. I'll give you my phone and as WhoaJoe continues to post what are you going to say? He ain't me and I'm not him. The Seton Hall game, maybe we catch it at a bar together in Houston. I have to check with the timing of the wedding, but if that works where we can catch the game....come on....bury the hatchet on this.
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Just curious......Does KenPom account for transfers like the Hausers or guys that are playing through injuries like Theo, Koby, and Jayce ?
Yeah actually. He takes submissions on injury minutiae from each team's fanbase and tweaks the model accordingly. You should send him a lengthy diatribe, I bet he would appreciate it.
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Yeah actually. He takes submissions on injury minutiae from each team's fanbase and tweaks the model accordingly. You should send him a lengthy diatribe, I bet he would appreciate it.
Well done!
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Own up to who and what you are.
LOL. “I have one username and one username only.” –Hoopaloop
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First off...... You actually count my posts???? Creepy.
The form software counts. It's right on your profile, which every registered user (but not guests) can see.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;u=11808
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To be fair to Ners, this iteration of him has been much more reasonable.
Agreed. But none of the critiques are current. They are all the same old ones from years ago. Even if they are reasonable, it gets old quick.
It is possible I'm ignoring when Projos do similar things.
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The form software counts. It's right on your profile, which every registered user (but not guests) can see.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;u=11808
I didn't know that, though it's no less creepy to know that someone's looking up my profile to see how many times I post per day. I would never even think to do that.
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Yeah actually. He takes submissions on injury minutiae from each team's fanbase and tweaks the model accordingly. You should send him a lengthy diatribe, I bet he would appreciate it.
Yeah, that was kinda the point. Models are great but they don't account for every variable. That's why when people try to compare "apples to apples" between two coaches it will always be apples to oranges. People offering coach Xs superior record as irrefutable evidence that Wojo is underperforming are just flat out wrong.
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LOL. “I have one username and one username only.” –Hoopaloop
Well done. Despite my less than stellar rep here, I’ve never denied who I was when called out after creating a new account.
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Well done. Despite my less than stellar rep here, I’ve never denied who I was when called out after creating a new account.
Right now I have one account and one account only. Why are you afraid to watch the Seton Hall game so I can prove it? Nervous that it will blow up the entire mythology around here?
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I’d ask the same about Larry Williams and going to Notre Dame.
I don't care where or if Wojo played / coached anywhere before MU. I just want him to succeed.
I for one was not a Larry Williams fan, but it had zero to do with him being a domer. I was on a board of directors of a large privately held company and our chairman hired Larry at Portland University. He was not impressed with Larry. He was not upset that Larry left for MU.
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I don't care where or if Wojo played / coached anywhere before MU. I just want him to succeed.
I for one was not a Larry Williams fan, but it had zero to do with him being a domer. I was on a board of directors of a large privately held company and our chairman hired Larry at Portland University. He was not impressed with Larry. He was not upset that Larry left for MU.
Your chairman hired Larry and was also not impressed with Larry? Seems like your chairman didn’t do a very good job then.
On the other subject it seems that some people hate Duke so much or people that went there that they hold it against them. Glad you don’t.
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Right now I have one account and one account only. Why are you afraid to watch the Seton Hall game so I can prove it? Nervous that it will blow up the entire mythology around here?
Quote from: Pakuni on March 25, 2012, 01:05:09 PM
It would be awesome if somone invented some kind of portable device that one could carry into an arena, and use to take photos and chat online.
Oh well, maybe someday.
“That would be awesome, but two things that I would contend on this.
1) Do you really think he would be on chat while watching a game in the stands? I don't.
2) More importantly, the chat on Scoop is run on Adobe Flash. iPhones don't work on flash. I happen to know he uses an iPhone because I have received emails from him from time to time. I received one from him that day because I was having issues with my account here and I emailed him for Hilltopper's email address and he responded back from his iPhone with that email address.
Kind of hard to use a phone to do chat during a game that doesn't support adobe flash that the chat is run on which his mobile device doesn't have.” –Hoopaloop, proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he can’t be Chicos
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Right now I have one account and one account only.
“I haven't created any other screen names” --ChicosBailBonds
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“I haven't created any other screen names” --ChicosBailBonds
I have one account right now....happy to prove you wrong. Say $5000 to charity?
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I have one account right now....happy to prove you wrong. Say $5000 to charity?
Who could ever doubt your honesty?
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Who could ever doubt your honesty?
You in or not? You have been talking crap here for years....step up to the plate...easy to prove it....grab a bat
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Your chairman hired Larry and was also not impressed with Larry? Seems like your chairman didn’t do a very good job then.
Huh? I guess so. PU was not crazy about the hire. I guess you have never made a bad hire. FWI, it happens everywhere including Marquette.
Our chairman, while not a perfect man (no one is), came from nothing and is worth $100MM+ so I guess he was not an idiot. I'm sure your story of success much more impressive.
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Huh? I guess so. PU was not crazy about the hire. I guess you have never made a bad hire. FWI, it happens everywhere including Marquette.
Our chairman, while not a perfect man (no one is), came from nothing and is worth $100MM+ so I guess he was not an idiot. I'm sure your story of success much more impressive.
Awfully defensive
No, my story isn’t close to that. Yes, people make bad hires. That was, I thought, the point of my comment. Instead of being unimpressed with Williams, maybe he should have been less impressed with himself for the hire. An AD hire isn’t something you do casually over an hour interview.
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Awfully defensive
No, my story isn’t close to that. Yes, people make bad hires. That was, I thought, the point of my comment. Instead of being unimpressed with Williams, maybe he should have been less impressed with himself for the hire. An AD hire isn’t something you do casually over an hour interview.
Okay, I'm lost. I don't follow this at all. "an hour interview"? Where did that come from?
The gentleman was very honest about the error of hiring Larry. In fact, he has always been very honest about all the mistakes in his career.
I didn't know he even knew Larry when he told me about him. So he was not trying to cover up an error.
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You in or not? You have been talking crap here for years....step up to the plate...easy to prove it....grab a bat
Let's bet $10,000 that you have a long history of lying about your identity. You in or not, Hoopaloop?
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Instead of charts let's use a power point edited by Wojo.
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As to Wojo and his first two years...I actually thought that first year was Wojo's best coaching job. He was willing to throw out his systems and patchwork it.
I agree with this. That’s why I’m wondering if Ed leaving may make Wojo a better coach. He can be very creative when he has no choice but to be creative. I wonder if we’d have some success in certain matchups running a 5-out type of offense if we can keep from being dominated inside on defense.
As for the ND/Duke comparisons, I don’t think it’s unrealistic to question if working at those schools sets someone up well for MU. It’s fair to wonder if Wojo can coach non-5 stars up since he didn’t have to at Duke. I think the jury is still out on that.
Or I’m sure an MU athletic department is much different to navigate than ND with football. It seems like Scholl has done much better than Larry with that. I haven’t heard much negativity about Scholl because of his ND ties.
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I embedded the charts back on page 1, the first few posts.
Have a look!