Derek Jeter

[Tugg Speedman]

I saw some of the ESPN pre-game and all I could think of was White Sox head coach Robin Ventura's comment when the Yankees played in Chicago .... "is he retiring or dying?"

It was hard to tell the difference from the way it was portrayed in ESPN today.

[chapman]

Respect for him as a player and person, but I can't resist posting it...

[CTWarrior]

He's an odd player, being simultaneously overrated and underrated.  Every guy who has ever studied defense rates him as the worst fielding shortstop ever to keep a job in MLB for multiple years yet he's won many Gold Gloves.  He has good hands and makes very few errors, but has surprisingly bad defensive mechanics and no range.

On the other hand he probably should have 1 or 2 MVPs, (Ivan Rodriguez over him in 1999 makes no sense) and he never got one of those.  

The biggest thing about him is that for some reason broadcasters/writers decided around 1997 that he could do no wrong and since then no major outlet seems to ever say a bad word about him, regardless of whatever he did.

Overall, a great player.  As a Red Sox fan, you hated to see him get up in a big spot.  He wouldn't always get a hit, but he would always put up a great AB.

[GGGG]

In just looking at the stats, Jeter is a tad bit better version of Paul Molitor.  Which isn't bad by any respects, I mean Molitor is a deserved Hall of Famer.  But no one calls Paul Molitor one of the best ever.

But the over-the-top stuff with Jeter is because he's in New York, and the face of a franchise that could be argued was the last mini-dynasty in baseball.  (4 championships in 5 years....5 championships and 7 WS appearances in 11 years.)

And he's not bad looking.

[tower912]

Molitor-like stats combined with all of the WS's.....   he was the face of that franchise for a lot of years.   I rarely root for the Yankees, but he deserves the accolades.   

[4everwarriors]

He doesn't seem all busted up over retirin', aina?

[muwarrior69]

He is the only Yankee to have 3000 hits or more. Amazing stat for a team with 40 pennants and 27 Championships.

[Spotcheck Billy]

David Shoenfield has a column up on ESPN.com comparing Jeter's career numbers to Yount's and reasons why Yount was only elected an Allstar 3 times in his career vs. 14 for Jeter.

Robin Yount was just a three-time All-Star

Robin Yount was a great player: A two-time MVP, a first-ballot Hall of Famer, over 3,000 hits. Yet he made just three All-Star teams in his career.

Here are the fewest All-Star selections for position players who debuted after 1933, the year of the first All-Star Game:

Robin Yount: 3
Phil Rizzuto: 5
Frank Thomas: 5
Richie Ashburn: 6
Lou Brock: 6
Willie McCovey: 6
Willie Stargell: 6

(Monte Irvin made just one All-Star Game but had a short major league career after he started in the Negro Leagues.)

All-Star selections are certainly an imperfect process, but it's still odd that a player of Yount's caliber made it just three times. I mean, Paul Lo Duca was a four-time All-Star. So were John Stearns, Manny Trillo and Dante Bichette. Carlos Guillen and Ozzie Guillen made as many All-Star teams as Yount.

So what was the deal? Let's dig what happened.

1974-1979: Yount came up as an 18-year-old rookie and took a few years to establish himself. He was a good player from '77 to '79 but was bypassed as a reserve each season. He was worth 5.0 WAR in 1978, but it's easy to see why he didn't make it: He hit .281 with one home run and 25 RBIs in the first half but .301 with eight home runs and 46 RBIs in the second half.

1980: His first All-Star appearance, selected as a reserve along with Alan Trammell behind starter Bucky Dent.

1981: Didn't make it as Dent was again voted the starter and Rick Burleson selected as the backup. (Burleson was a four-time All-Star.)

1982: Yount had one of the great seasons ever for a shortstop, winning MVP honors while hitting .331 and leading the league in slugging percentage, and the fans recognized it by voting him in as the starter.

1983: Yount's final appearance, again voted in as the starter (over eventual MVP Cal Ripken).

1984: Yount was hitting .299/.370/.431 at the break with eight home runs and 42 RBIs. He had spent the previous week or so DHing for the Brewers because of a sore shoulder -- which would force a move to the outfield in 1985 -- so maybe that's why he wasn't selected. Ripken was voted as the starter and Trammell (.307, 8 HR, 44 RBI) the backup. When Trammell was unavailable to play, Alfredo Griffin was added to the roster -- mainly because he was already in town. (Griffin, hitting .241 with 19 RBIs, thus became one of the worst All-Stars ever.)

Keep in mind rosters were smaller than -- only 29 guys were on the AL squad as opposed to the 40 or so who eventually become official All-Stars these days.

1985 -- Rickey Henderson, Dave Winfield and Jim Rice started in the outfield, with Harold Baines, Phil Bradley, Tom Brunansky and Gary Ward the outfield reserves. Bradley, Brunansky and Ward were their teams' only rep and Yount didn't tear it up in the first half (.275, 7 HR, 39 RBIs).

1986 -- Kirby Puckett, Henderson and Winfield started with Rice, Baines, Lloyd Moseby, Jesse Barfield and Jose Canseco the outfield reserves. Yount was hitting .330 at the break but with just three home runs and 20 RBIs.

1987 -- Henderson, Winfield and George Bell started and Puckett and Dwight Evans were the backups. The AL squad included three backup first basemen and two DHs. Winfield played the entire 13-inning game. Yount was hitting .301 with 11 home runs and 45 RBIs at the break, but got pushed out by Baines (.301, 12, 49, White Sox only rep), Pat Tabler (.301, 7, 48, Indians rep) and Larry Parrish (.274, 20, 60, Rangers rep).

1988 -- Henderson, Canseco and Winfield started with Puckett and Mike Greenwell (who would finish second in the MVP voting that year) the backups. Johnny Ray and Harold Reynolds both made it as backup second basemen but were their teams' only rep. Yount was hitting .304, 8, 46 at the break.

1989 -- This was Yount's second MVP season, when he edged out Ruben Sierra. He was hitting .299 with 10 home runs and 49 RBIs at the break and then hit .339 in the second half. The All-Star starters were Sierra, Puckett and Bo Jackson, with Greenwell (.300, 10, 55), Canseco (he must have been voted in as a starter because he had missed the entire first half) and Devon White (.259, 9, 39) the reserves. White was the Angels' only All-Star.

So you can what happened here. The fans never voted Yount in after he moved off shortstop, his numbers were rarely "automatic" quality and he got squeezed a couple times by teams needing their token All-Star.

1990-1993: He fell off after his MVP season and was no longer All-Star-quality.

It's interesting, Yount's career WAR is 77.0 -- higher than Derek Jeter's, even though the two had similar careers, minus Yount's position change. Yount had the awesome 1982 season and was worth 7.2 WAR in 1983 and 7.1 in 1980 and had five other seasons at 4.9 or higher. That's eight seasons of 4.9 WAR or higher compared to six for Jeter.

They're players of near identical offensive ability -- Jeter has a 116 career OPS+ and Yount 115. Their career plate appearances are currently within 100 of each other. Jeter, however, is appearing in his 14th All-Star Game. One player will be remembered as a legend and the other is remembered for his great '80s 'stache.

I'm not trying to knock Jeter when I say this: The difference between the two is really in their quality of their teammates and the city they played in. Yount, once that 1982 Brewers World Series team quickly faded, spent the rest of his career playing for mostly mediocre Brewers teams. He simply never caught the public's fascination like Jeter or even other players of his era like Henderson, Puckett, Canseco and, even briefly, Jackson.

[Boone]

Jeter has a slightly better career average than Molitor, but I'd rate Paul the better hitter. As the Onion hilariously observes, Jeter gets a bunch of cheap sh*t hits.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/derek-jeter-just-6-squib-grounders-shallow-bloops,20747/

[brandx]

Molitor-like stats combined with all of the WS's.....   he was the face of that franchise for a lot of years.   I rarely root for the Yankees, but he deserves the accolades.   

The Ws aren't his tho' - they belong to the team. Does anyone think if he was in Houston that they would be a winner just by his presence?

He obviously deserves to be in the HOF, but really, he is just Craig Biggio - except it was in NYC on a team that bought championships.

[brandx]

They're players of near identical offensive ability -- Jeter has a 116 career OPS+ and Yount 115. Their career plate appearances are currently within 100 of each other. Jeter, however, is appearing in his 14th All-Star Game. One player will be remembered as a legend and the other is remembered for his great '80s 'stache.

I'm not trying to knock Jeter when I say this: The difference between the two is really in their quality of their teammates and the city they played in. Yount, once that 1982 Brewers World Series team quickly faded, spent the rest of his career playing for mostly mediocre Brewers teams. He simply never caught the public's fascination like Jeter or even other players of his era like Henderson, Puckett, Canseco and, even briefly, Jackson.

Bingo! Same deal with Biggio. Put Yount or Biggio hitting lead off in that lineup and what would you get?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Bingo! Same deal with Biggio. Put Yount or Biggio hitting lead off in that lineup and what would you get?

Not Derek Jeter. 

Everyone sounds like sour grapes because Jeter wasn't on their team.  Jeter has intangibles that none of the mentioned players had.  Robbie Cano has way better stats than Jeter, but he is not beloved in Yankee-land because he was a no show in the post-season.  It's takes a certain personality to play in New York City and Jeter had it since day 1.

[GGGG]

Not Derek Jeter.  

Everyone sounds like sour grapes because Jeter wasn't on their team.  Jeter has intangibles that none of the mentioned players had.  Robbie Cano has way better stats than Jeter, but he is not beloved in Yankee-land because he was a no show in the post-season.  It's takes a certain personality to play in New York City and Jeter had it since day 1.

What "intangibles" does Jeter have that Yount, Molitor or Biggio didn't?

Look, I *like* Jeter.  He is the face of a franchise that had a *great* run that closely parallels his career.  But I just don't like inflating him to more than he really is.  He's a no doubt, first ballot HoFer.  But is he "one of the best ever?"  No.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The "Jeffrey Meier" homerun.
Mr. November.
The late inning dive into the stands in 2003.
5 World Series rings plus a few additional AL Championships.
Who goes 5 for 5 on the day they get their 3,000th hit where the 3,000 is a home run?

Am I a life-long Yankee homer who's watched Jeter day-after-day since he got called up?  Yes.  So I'm definitely biased.

[brandx]

The "Jeffrey Meier" homerun.
Mr. November.
The late inning dive into the stands in 2003.
5 World Series rings plus a few additional AL Championships.
Who goes 5 for 5 on the day they get their 3,000th hit where the 3,000 is a home run?

Am I a life-long Yankee homer who's watched Jeter day-after-day since he got called up?  Yes.  So I'm definitely biased.

Give me a serious answer. Would he have 5 WS rings if he played for Houston or Pittsburgh or KC?

And he is special because he dove for a ball? Really?

The Jeffrey Meier home run? So he's a great player for hitting a fly ball to the fence (not over)?

I find it absolutely incredible that on most lists, he is rated as the 2nd best SS of all time. Plain and simple NY bias.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Give me a serious answer. Would he have 5 WS rings if he played for Houston or Pittsburgh or KC?

No, because he never would have been in Houston or Pittsburgh or KC for that long because they would have either traded him away or not paid him to stay in which case he would have left for New York or Boston or Los Angeles as they would pay him and where he'd also have a chance to win.  Houston or Pittsburgh or KC also would have traded the Bernie Williams, Jorge Posadas, Andy Pettites and Marianos around him and they would not have traded for players like Paul O'Neil or Tino or so he would have no supporting cast with him. 

[swoopem]

The "Jeffrey Meier" homerun.
Mr. November.
The late inning dive into the stands in 2003.
5 World Series rings plus a few additional AL Championships.
Who goes 5 for 5 on the day they get their 3,000th hit where the 3,000 is a home run?

Am I a life-long Yankee homer who's watched Jeter day-after-day since he got called up?  Yes.  So I'm definitely biased.

The Giambi out in 2001 is another.

I'm pretty shocked at all this Jeter diminishing, the guy is a stud. I'm 26 so I can say pretty confidently that he's been the best player of my generation.

[GGGG]

No, because he never would have been in Houston or Pittsburgh or KC for that long because they would have either traded him away or not paid him to stay in which case he would have left for New York or Boston or Los Angeles as they would pay him and where he'd also have a chance to win.  Houston or Pittsburgh or KC also would have traded the Bernie Williams, Jorge Posadas, Andy Pettites and Marianos around him and they would not have traded for players like Paul O'Neil or Tino or so he would have no supporting cast with him.  

I think you just made brandx's point.  

[CTWarrior]

Give me a serious answer. Would he have 5 WS rings if he played for Houston or Pittsburgh or KC?

And he is special because he dove for a ball? Really?

The Jeffrey Meier home run? So he's a great player for hitting a fly ball to the fence (not over)?

I find it absolutely incredible that on most lists, he is rated as the 2nd best SS of all time. Plain and simple NY bias.

I thought it odd to include the Jeffrey Maier home run on his list of accomplishments, since undoubtedly would have been changed to an out with the benefit of instant reply.

And he didn't dive into the stands,.  He fell into the stands in that game in July 2004 after catching a ball ten feet from the wall.

Jeter absolutely got a lot of big hits, but he played on a team that afforded him a lot of chances to get big hits, too.  The Yanks have had the highest payroll in Baseball for the past 14 season by more than a half billion dollars but have won only one championship in that time (assuming they don't win this year).  Did he lose his leadership skills or were the players he was leading not as good?

I get it, Jeter is/was a great player.  But the praise of him relative to his actual worth is a bit over the top.

[CTWarrior]

The Giambi out in 2001 is another.

I'm pretty shocked at all this Jeter diminishing, the guy is a stud. I'm 26 so I can say pretty confidently that he's been the best player of my generation.

Better than Albert Pujols?  Better than A-Rod?  Better than Ken Griffey, Jr?  Better than Greg Maddux?  Mike Trout is 22 and he's already had two seasons better than any season Jeter's ever had and will make it three this year. 

[GGGG]

Better than Albert Pujols?  Better than A-Rod?  Better than Ken Griffey, Jr?  Better than Greg Maddux?  Mike Trout is 22 and he's already had two seasons better than any season Jeter's ever had and will make it three this year. 

 


Or pre-steroid Barry Bonds?

[RJax55]

Yes, playing in NYC certainly helped his legacy. But, he's hardily the first Yankee to benefit from that.

Don't you think that a great deal of the praise he is receiving is because Jeter is considered by most fans and the media to be clean (no 'roids, peds, etc.)? Compared to the other HOF worthy players in his era, who else can you say that about?

[GGGG]

Yes, playing in NYC certainly helped his legacy. But, he's hardily the first Yankee to benefit from that.

Don't you think that a great deal of the praise he is receiving is because Jeter is considered by most fans and the media to be clean (no 'roids, peds, etc.)? Compared to the other HOF worthy players in his era, who else can you say that about?

Ken Griffey...Pedro Martinez...Greg Maddux....Ichiro...Randy Johnson...Tom Glavine...Chipper Jones...

Hell Adrian Beltre has a higher career WAR than Jeter does.

[swoopem]

Better than Albert Pujols?  Better than A-Rod?  Better than Ken Griffey, Jr?  Better than Greg Maddux?  Mike Trout is 22 and he's already had two seasons better than any season Jeter's ever had and will make it three this year. 

Pujols- yes, A- Rod- cheater, Griffey- injured too much, Maddux- I guess I meant postion players. Mike Trout is for another generation. For kids now days he'll most likely be their Jeter.

For 18 years Jeter has been relatively healthy and considered a clean player throughout all of the steroid BS. I think most people my age consider him the best player of our generation (judging by last night all the current MLB players do).  

[GGGG]

There is absolutely no way that Derek Jeter is better than Albert Pujols.  ABSOLUTELY no way.

 And Griffey "injured too much?"  His first ten years in the league were probably better than Jeter's top one or two.  He finished in the top 10 of the MVP vote 7 times during that stretch.