MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Herman Cain on July 21, 2020, 09:12:47 PM
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Very well written analysis by incoming MU Student.
https://www.westernjournal.com/op-ed-almost-got-kicked-marquettes-incoming-class-support-trump-story/?ff_source=twitter&ff_medium=thenewvoice
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This again? She made a video. Her right. Others judged her for it. Their right. Now she is just trying to extend her 15 minutes in the spotlight. Again, her right. Others will again judge her. Their right. She will go full snowflake. Her chico-esque right.
None of her rights have been violated. Tired.
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Poor thing got all the way to the 2nd second sentence before crying victim.
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Who the heck is advising this poor kid?
Four or five years from now, this kid is going to go looking for a job, and when potential employers Google her name, this is what they're going to find. Unless that potential employer is OAN, she's screwed.
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Geez, that site asked me 7 times if I wanted to subscribe or make their page my homepage.
I'm always amused when a person cries about their free speech being stifled in one breath and then demands that another person's free speech by stifled in the next. Death threats and bullying are never acceptable, and Marquette PD investigated those that crossed the line. But calling someone a bigot for something that they post online is as much free speech as anything that this young woman put out there. If you can't handle your political views being criticized, don't post them online.
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She sounds like a meat summiter.
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Who the heck is advising this poor kid?
Four or five years from now, this kid is going to go looking for a job, and when potential employers Google her name, this is what they're going to find. Unless that potential employer is OAN, she's screwed.
Jacob Wohl
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Wow. What a martyr. Thank you for your service.
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Poor thing got all the way to the 2nd second before crying victim.
"Actually, for conservatives, that’s exactly what we face every day thanks to cancel culture. "
Oh dear lord... A lot of growing up to do. Hopefully she will use her Marquette experience to its fullest.
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This must be a headache for the MU administration. Though one they brought on themselves by not putting a stop to the antics of all 3 of them at the start.
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This must be a headache for the MU administration. Though one they brought on themselves by not putting a stop to the antics of all 3 of them at the start.
I'm not exactly sure what Marquette could have done differently. They don't actively monitor every student's social media account continuously.
She took a relatively routine couseling process and turned herself into a victim. And of course people lapped it up because nuance is lost on so many.
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Who the heck is advising this poor kid?
Four or five years from now, this kid is going to go looking for a job, and when potential employers Google her name, this is what they're going to find. Unless that potential employer is OAN, she's screwed.
Nah, she has already figured out that there is an entire sub-industry on the right dedicated to supporting those who cry about how victimized they are.
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I'm not exactly sure what Marquette could have done differently. They don't actively monitor every student's social media account continuously.
She took a relatively routine couseling process and turned herself into a victim. And of course people lapped it up because nuance is lost on so many.
Marquette could have done:
- talked with student A about appropriate use of social media
- Told student B that reporting a student based on political views is not appropriate
- Told student C that harassment and inciting others to harass is not appropriate
- Given probation to b and c for harassment
- Given student A probation for her inappropriateness during the past month
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Who the heck is advising this poor kid?
Four or five years from now, this kid is going to go looking for a job, and when potential employers Google her name, this is what they're going to find. Unless that potential employer is OAN, she's screwed.
OH trust me, she has already swung this into multiple internships and now has much more academic support then before.
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Marquette could have done:
- talked with student A about appropriate use of social media
- Told student B that reporting a student based on political views is not appropriate
- Told student C that harassment and inciting others to harass is not appropriate
- Given probation to b and c for harassment
- Given student A probation for her inappropriateness during the past month
Marquette spoke to all of the students in question. No one should have received probation.
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Marquette could have done:
- talked with student A about appropriate use of social media
They did that.
Marquette could have done:
- Told student B that reporting a student based on political views is not appropriate
I'm sure they talked to student B but not about this. Despite student A trying to make this about the Trump video, every article about this situation has mentioned that she was accused of making racist, transphobic, and homophobic comments on her social media. We don't know what exactly she said because she has since deleted the comments and none of the articles actually have a direct quote of what she said. Reporting a student for allegedly posting hate speech on social media is appropriate and is not reporting someone based on political views.
Marquette could have done:
- Told student C that harassment and inciting others to harass is not appropriate
We don't know specifically what student C said (if it has been posted somewhere I missed it). If it crossed the line into threats or bullying I'm sure there was a conversation. If it didn't cross the line but was rather just student C disagreeing with student A's politics or calling them a bigot, then that is free speech and Marquette should not talk to them.
Marquette could have done:
- Given probation to b and c for harassment
Probation is not something that universities can just put students on. There is legally mandated due process that must be followed. They must be found responsible for violating a university rule or policy. I guarantee you there is no rule that prohibits someone from reporting another student for hate speech, so probation is out of the question for student B. Student C, it would depend on what they actually said/did. But we value free speech in this country so the standard for harassment is very high. Personally in 8 years of doing this work, I can't think of a single case where a political argument that was solely on social media resulted in substantiated harassment charges for either side unless one or both engaged in direct threats or used a racial slur (usually the N-Word). And I have seen several dozen of these cases over the years.
Marquette could have done:
- Given student A probation for her inappropriateness during the past month
Same answer as the one for students B and C. But also, you think this situation would be less of a "headache for the MU administration" if they put her on probation? All she had to do was talk to some dean and answer some reflective questions. I can't imagine the size of the tantrum she would be throwing if Marquette had actually punished her in any way. Plus there would be some legitimacy to her tantrum because Marquette actually took action against her. At the very least FIRE would be all over MU.
I said it in the original thread about this situation. She has every right to us her free speech to post her political views and the alleged hate speech on social media. Her detractors have every right to use their free speech to call her a bigot, homophobe, racist, idiot, etc for posting her views and alleged hate speech. God bless the first amendment.
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I said it in the original thread about this situation. She has every right to us her free speech to post her political views and the alleged hate speech on social media. Her detractors have every right to use their free speech to call her a bigot, homophobe, racist, idiot, etc for posting her views and alleged hate speech. God bless the first amendment.
I agree with this analysis, the problem is she did so using the Marquette brand and therein lies the conundrum for the university. The last thing MU wants is to be perceived as a school that attracts an abundance of racists homophobes and xenophobes, and that's a serious concern. They're having enough trouble meeting enrollment goals as it is without these kinds of distractions so this is definitely unwanted attention.
At the same time, they should not be in the business of monitoring students' social media activity as it relates to speech. Even if said speech is anathema to the university's mission. This idea that all incoming or existing students must reflect the values of the institution itself is ridiculous! That will never happen. Now If students are threatening physical harm or verbally abusing other students through social media that's a different issue that would need to be addressed.
What MU should have done is to have politely reached out to this student and simply said to them you're fine to express whatever views you want on social media but please don't use any MU imagery when you do. That in itself might be a violation of free speech, I'm not sure as I'm not a constitutional lawyer but it seems to me it's a reasonable response.
MU could have told the existing students they're addressing the issue quietly with the incoming student and that should have been that. The existing students I'm sure would still advocate for rescinding the incoming student's admission but MU should not have empowered them further and just let it be.
In my view, MU has exhibited gross incompetence in this matter and would benefit greatly from the counsel of some our distinguished alums who are C-Suite communications officers for some of this country's largest corporations. Some of them may even be regulars on this board.
I've told some of the administrators that I keep in touch with as much. MU has absolutely nothing to gain from any of this.
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Very well written analysis by incoming MU Student.
https://www.westernjournal.com/op-ed-almost-got-kicked-marquettes-incoming-class-support-trump-story/?ff_source=twitter&ff_medium=thenewvoice
She didn’t write that.
I don’t disagree with the actual author that the far left wokes are out of control when it comes to policing speech, but The constant victimology and scare tactics of a coming Armageddon for conservative students discredits this whole article.
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Trolls gonna troll
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I agree with this analysis, the problem is she did so using the Marquette brand and therein lies the conundrum for the university. The last thing MU wants is to be perceived as a school that attracts an abundance of racists homophobes and xenophobes, and that's a serious concern. They're having enough trouble meeting enrollment goals as it is without these kinds of distractions so this is definitely unwanted attention.
At the same time, they should not be in the business of monitoring students' social media activity as it relates to speech. Even if said speech is anathema to the university's mission. This idea that all incoming or existing students must reflect the values of the institution itself is ridiculous! That will never happen. Now If students are threatening physical harm or verbally abusing other students through social media that's a different issue that would need to be addressed.
What MU should have done is to have politely reached out to this student and simply said to them you're fine to express whatever views you want on social media but please don't use any MU imagery when you do. That in itself might be a violation of free speech, I'm not sure as I'm not a constitutional lawyer but it seems to me it's a reasonable response.
MU could have told the existing students they're addressing the issue quietly with the incoming student and that should have been that. The existing students I'm sure would still advocate for rescinding the incoming student's admission but MU should not have empowered them further and just let it be.
In my view, MU has exhibited gross incompetence in this matter and would benefit greatly from the counsel of some our distinguished alums who are C-Suite communications officers for some of this country's largest corporations. Some of them may even be regulars on this board.
I've told some of the administrators that I keep in touch with as much. MU has absolutely nothing to gain from any of this.
Marquette really handled this well. I have no idea what you expected the University to do to manage this.
And not using Marquette's "imagery?" How are you going to enforce that?
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I'm genuinely curious as to which conservative voices have been cancelled.
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Nah, she has already figured out that there is an entire sub-industry on the right dedicated to supporting those who cry about how victimized they are.
And if you whine loud enough, you might get on Fox News.
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I'm genuinely curious as to which conservative voices have been cancelled.
The same ones who've been deprived of their freedom of speech.
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Who the heck is advising this poor kid?
Four or five years from now, this kid is going to go looking for a job, and when potential employers Google her name, this is what they're going to find. Unless that potential employer is OAN, she's screwed.
I appreciate you recognizing the discrimination conservatives will face during the hiring process. I've always thought liberals were open-minded, tolerant, compassionate, empathetic. The liberal party is rapidly devolving into fascism, racism, intolerance, and anything other than open-mindedness. What's sad is many intelligent liberals are getting manipulated by the fringe, radical, confused, and uneducated, youthful faction of their party.
Youth is the hallmark of folly. With age comes wisdom.
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And if you whine loud enough, you might get on Fox News.
Listening to Don Lemon, Chris Cuomo, and Rachel Maddow is like tuning into a nonstop whine fest. I spent 3 hours watching them the other night. It was depressing, sad, and snowflake AF -Don Lemon, especially. Good God that guy has slipped in the last few years.
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I appreciate you recognizing the discrimination conservatives will face during the hiring process. I've always thought liberals were open-minded, tolerant, compassionate, empathetic. The liberal party is rapidly devolving into fascism, racism, intolerance, and anything other than open-mindedness. What's sad is many intelligent liberals are getting manipulated by the fringe, radical, confused, and uneducated, youthful faction of their party.
Youth is the hallmark of folly. With age comes wisdom.
Funniest thing I've read all day.
Frothing at the mouth again, eh?
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Marquette really handled this well. I have no idea what you expected the University to do to manage this.
And not using Marquette's "imagery?" How are you going to enforce that?
It never should have been a local story, let alone a national one. If they didn't react they way they did, it most likely wouldn't have been either so from where I sit, that this was a story at all means they didn't manage it correctly.
As for the imagery issue, I understand there's no way to enforce that and acknowledged in my original post that in and of itself could be an infringement of some kind I'm not sure, but brands frequently send cease and desist letters when their marks are used inappropriately so thought there may be an angle there but not being an attorney, I have no idea just speculating.
My point is MU should not have immediately caved to the student mob nor should they have even hinted at rescinding admission to this student. That's what caused this incoming student to go national. If they had just said to this incoming student, we as an institution remain neutral and would appreciate you not mentioning us or wearing our gear in your posts, regardless of whether you're a Trump or Biden supporter, I'm guessing that would have been it. I could wrong and this incoming student may just be an agitator and would have gone national with it anyway, but I'd bet if MU just said that it would not have escalated to anywhere near the degree it did, if at all. Again could be way off on that, but that's what my gut says.
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It never should have been a local story, let alone a national one. If they didn't react they way they did, it most likely wouldn't have been either so from where I sit, that this was a story at all means they didn't manage it correctly.
Sorry but my understanding is that some of the stuff she posted was pretty questionable. They have to follow that up.
My point is MU should not have immediately caved to the student mob nor should they have even hinted at rescinding admission to this student. That's what caused this incoming student to go national. If they had just said to this incoming student, we as an institution remain neutral and would appreciate you not mentioning us or wearing our gear in your posts, regardless of whether you're a Trump or Biden supporter, I'm guessing that would have been it. I could wrong and this incoming student may just be an agitator and would have gone national with it anyway, but I'd bet if MU just said that it would not have escalated to anywhere near the degree it did, if at all. Again could be way off on that, but that's what my gut says.
It really hasn't "gone national." It is being reported in fringe circles, but will likely just wash away when the next victimization story arises somewhere.
It isn't a big deal.
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It never should have been a local story, let alone a national one. If they didn't react they way they did, it most likely wouldn't have been either so from where I sit, that this was a story at all means they didn't manage it correctly.
As for the imagery issue, I understand there's no way to enforce that and acknowledged in my original post that in and of itself could be an infringement of some kind I'm not sure, but brands frequently send cease and desist letters when their marks are used inappropriately so thought there may be an angle there but not being an attorney, I have no idea just speculating.
My point is MU should not have immediately caved to the student mob nor should they have even hinted at rescinding admission to this student. That's what caused this incoming student to go national. If they had just said to this incoming student, we as an institution remain neutral and would appreciate you not mentioning us or wearing our gear in your posts, regardless of whether you're a Trump or Biden supporter, I'm guessing that would have been it. I could wrong and this incoming student may just be an agitator and would have gone national with it anyway, but I'd bet if MU just said that it would not have escalated to anywhere near the degree it did, if at all. Again could be way off on that, but that's what my gut says.
do we have proof, other than her comments, that MU even threatened to legitimately revoke her admission?
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The liberal party is rapidly devolving into fascism, racism,
So true, as Americans we must come together and demand that President Biden remove the unidentified federal thugs that he has sent into cities to enforce his liberal agenda and stop supporting tiki torch bearing white nationalists as well as remove them from his staff in the West Wing!
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It never should have been a local story, let alone a national one. If they didn't react they way they did, it most likely wouldn't have been either so from where I sit, that this was a story at all means they didn't manage it correctly.
Just so we're clear, your logic goes something like:
1. Incoming student makes questionable remarks in a public forum
2. Marquette has a private conversation with that student about her remarks
3. Incoming student then makes public comments about that private conversation.
4. It's Marquette's fault any of this went public.
Makes perfect sense to me!
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I appreciate you recognizing the discrimination conservatives will face during the hiring process. I've always thought liberals were open-minded, tolerant, compassionate, empathetic. The liberal party is rapidly devolving into fascism, racism, intolerance, and anything other than open-mindedness. What's sad is many intelligent liberals are getting manipulated by the fringe, radical, confused, and uneducated, youthful faction of their party.
Youth is the hallmark of folly. With age comes wisdom.
When it comes to matters of racism and fascism, I defer to your expertise.
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Disco Hippie,
I don't think you are aware of some of the legal obligations that MU is under. Once the second student reported an allegation of harassment based on a protected class, MU is obligated to respond. They don't have an option not to. Now, if the allegation was simply "this incoming student supports Trump therefore they're a bigot" then MU could have dismissed it outright as baseless. But if the report was an allegation that the incoming student was harassing people based on a protected class (and keep in mind that June's supreme court decision just added sexual orientation and gender identity as federally protected classes), then MU is obligated to provide some sort of remedy. I can personally attest that MU's remedy of a meeting with a university administrator to have a reflective conversation about some of the potential impacts of the student's words is considered best practice for these types of allegations. Its what we do here at TAMU and I posted an article in the other thread on this topic about how University of Arizona handles these cases in the exact same way.
I don't know the details of the meeting between the incoming student and the dean. It's possible that the meeting could have been handled better. But other than that, I don't think Marquette could have handled this situation any differently. They provided an educational remedy for an allegation of harassment based on a protected class that didn't involve punishing a student for free speech. Unfortunately, I think no matter what remedy MU went with, this student was going to use it to martyr herself and extend her 15 minutes of fame. The second that the second student submitted the complaint to MU, all roads led to exactly where we are now.
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I appreciate you recognizing the discrimination conservatives will face during the hiring process. I've always thought liberals were open-minded, tolerant, compassionate, empathetic. The liberal party is rapidly devolving into fascism, racism, intolerance, and anything other than open-mindedness. What's sad is many intelligent liberals are getting manipulated by the fringe, radical, confused, and uneducated, youthful faction of their party.
Youth is the hallmark of folly. With age comes wisdom.
Ners,
She will have difficulty applying for jobs with a lot of employers in a few years. It has nothing to do with her political affiliation. It has everything to do with companies wanting to hire people who can handle themselves professionally online. Hopefully, she learns from this and finds a company willing to give her a chance to show that she's grown and matured.
A case I handled at TAMU a while back comes to mind. We had a student who got into a twitter fight with a bunch of people over his political beliefs. He was far far off on the left side of the deep end and made some very unfortunate comments. It was enough that if you type in his name to google some really unflattering articles come up. The following year he came to us and claimed that he was being retaliated against by several student organizations because he had been blackballed from all of them. During the course of that allegation, he also mentioned that he was having trouble landing internships and at least one of them had told him that he wasn't hired because they found the articles. We ended up dismissing his retaliation claim because political affiliation isn't a protected class...and neither is people who say dumb things on the internet. We did connect him to a career counselor to help him work on mitigating the impacts of his past actions.
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I bet President Trump can dunk a basketball
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I bet President Trump can dunk a basketball
He can recognize an elephant, so dunking a basketball is a pretty logical assumption.
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I bet President Trump can dunk a basketball
Like no one has ever seen before. Except when Ners is guarding him.
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Ners,
She will have difficulty applying for jobs with a lot of employers in a few years. It has nothing to do with her political affiliation. It has everything to do with companies wanting to hire people who can handle themselves professionally online. Hopefully, she learns from this and finds a company willing to give her a chance to show that she's grown and matured.
A case I handled at TAMU a while back comes to mind. We had a student who got into a twitter fight with a bunch of people over his political beliefs. He was far far off on the left side of the deep end and made some very unfortunate comments. It was enough that if you type in his name to google some really unflattering articles come up. The following year he came to us and claimed that he was being retaliated against by several student organizations because he had been blackballed from all of them. During the course of that allegation, he also mentioned that he was having trouble landing internships and at least one of them had told him that he wasn't hired because they found the articles. We ended up dismissing his retaliation claim because political affiliation isn't a protected class...and neither is people who say dumb things on the internet. We did connect him to a career counselor to help him work on mitigating the impacts of his past actions.
What about how people conduct themselves in the real world? You know, as far as vandalizing private property, lighting things on fire, etc.? What about conduct as it relates to committing crime, felonies? Should employers take those things into consideration too?
In this case, her content was espousing her political viewpoint. It is no different than a student with a different viewpoint espousing theirs. Remember, half the country finds the radical, socialist, violent, deterioration of the Democratic party offensive. Should such a young "activist" on that side of the equation also have to have their admission reconsidered?
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Like no one has ever seen before. Except when Ners is guarding him.
I agree with this analysis. Well done, as well as the usage of "like no one has ever seen before."
As for Uncle Rico? Per usual is on the struggle bus. Few things more lame than somebody who thinks they are clever and funny, yet so often comes up empty.
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What about how people conduct themselves in the real world? You know, as far as vandalizing private property, lighting things on fire, etc.? What about conduct as it relates to committing crime, felonies? Should employers take those things into consideration too?
In this case, her content was espousing her political viewpoint. It is no different than a student with a different viewpoint espousing theirs. Remember, half the country finds the radical, socialist, violent, deterioration of the Democratic party offensive. Should such a young "activist" on that side of the equation also have to have their admission reconsidered?
Yes, of course. Good lord.
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I agree with this analysis. Well done, as well as the usage of "like no one has ever seen before."
As for Uncle Rico? Per usual is on the struggle bus. Few things more lame than somebody who thinks they are clever and funny, yet so often comes up empty.
Zing!
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Disco Hippie,
I don't think you are aware of some of the legal obligations that MU is under. Once the second student reported an allegation of harassment based on a protected class, MU is obligated to respond. They don't have an option not to. Now, if the allegation was simply "this incoming student supports Trump therefore they're a bigot" then MU could have dismissed it outright as baseless. But if the report was an allegation that the incoming student was harassing people based on a protected class (and keep in mind that June's supreme court decision just added sexual orientation and gender identity as federally protected classes), then MU is obligated to provide some sort of remedy. I can personally attest that MU's remedy of a meeting with a university administrator to have a reflective conversation about some of the potential impacts of the student's words is considered best practice for these types of allegations. Its what we do here at TAMU and I posted an article in the other thread on this topic about how University of Arizona handles these cases in the exact same way.
I don't know the details of the meeting between the incoming student and the dean. It's possible that the meeting could have been handled better. But other than that, I don't think Marquette could have handled this situation any differently. They provided an educational remedy for an allegation of harassment based on a protected class that didn't involve punishing a student for free speech. Unfortunately, I think no matter what remedy MU went with, this student was going to use it to martyr herself and extend her 15 minutes of fame. The second that the second student submitted the complaint to MU, all roads led to exactly where we are now.
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation TAMU. As I said I'm not an attorney and clearly don't understand everything institutions must go through from a legal standpoint once a claim has been made against a protective class. I guess it's just surprising to me that incoming students are treated as students even though they technically aren't yet and some of these kids are still 17.
What's most surprising to me is that this was generic social media post that allegedly made some harassing statements against a protected class but not to a specific individual within that class. My understanding is that complainant didn't even know this person and no individual contact was made between either of the two. They just saw the post and brought it to the university's attention. I could be wrong but that's my understanding.
That to me, is a very different situation than a harassment claim aimed at a specific individual at a campus party for example. I get that the law may not distinguish between those two scenarios but I think it should. Unfortunately what I think doesn't matter, It just pains me to see our mutual alma-mater dragged into these issues. Thanks again for your perspective.
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What about how people conduct themselves in the real world? You know, as far as vandalizing private property, lighting things on fire, etc.? What about conduct as it relates to committing crime, felonies? Should employers take those things into consideration too?
What? Of course, has anyone here suggested otherwise? Also:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7a/6b/34/7a6b3464b78b3541cf48c52550abb916.jpg)
In this case, her content was espousing her political viewpoint. It is no different than a student with a different viewpoint espousing theirs. Remember, half the country finds the radical, socialist, violent, deterioration of the Democratic party offensive. Should such a young "activist" on that side of the equation also have to have their admission reconsidered?
Her admission wasn't being reconsidered. She had to have a meeting with a university administrator where he asked her reflective questions about the potential impacts of her words on herself and others. As an employer I would look at her reaction to this and wonder if I would ever be able to give her constructive feedback because instead of reflecting, she is playing the martyr and blaming everyone but herself.
And no, half the country does not find the democratic party offensive. Half the country might lean more to the right then the left (though what that meant yesterday is not the same as it is today), but most moderates and conservatives (and liberals for that matter) I know disagree with but are not offended by someone who has a different political viewpoint then them. But yes, there is a population of snowflakes out there who can't stand someone having a different opinion than them.
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What about how people conduct themselves in the real world? You know, as far as vandalizing private property, lighting things on fire, etc.? What about conduct as it relates to committing crime, felonies? Should employers take those things into consideration too?
In this case, her content was espousing her political viewpoint. It is no different than a student with a different viewpoint espousing theirs. Remember, half the country finds the radical, socialist, violent, deterioration of the Democratic party offensive. Should such a young "activist" on that side of the equation also have to have their admission reconsidered?
As much as you want it to be the rioters hate Democrats (and future President Biden) as much as they hate Republicans. The only difference is they haven’t tried to hijack the GOP and been rebuffed multiple times.
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I'm guessing the truth to this situation is somewhere in the middle between the young woman and the university.
TAMU is absolutely correct about the legal niceties associated with this incident. There's certain things a university can and can't do and it has to stay within the bounds of reasonable, consistent practice.
Second, there's a lesson to be learned in all this. Social media never goes away. Twenty years from now, this woman may be applying for a job, up for a partnership or a Managing Directorship or something else special and this thing pops up. In a tight decision, this kind of stuff may matter. It shouldn't but it does.
In short, you probably want to be careful posting about politics, social views and so forth. What you believe in at 18 may not what you believe in years from now and the last thing one needs is to have someone dredge up a youthful moment. This 40 year old woman may well say, "you have got to be kidding...."
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What about conduct as it relates to committing crime, felonies? Should employers take those things into consideration too?
It's sweet that you are concerned about the futures of convicted felon Roger Stone and admitted criminal Michael Flynn.
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Thank you for this thoughtful explanation TAMU. As I said I'm not an attorney and clearly don't understand everything institutions must go through from a legal standpoint once a claim has been made against a protective class. I guess it's just surprising to me that incoming students are treated as students even though they technically aren't yet and some of these kids are still 17.
What's most surprising to me is that this was generic social media post that allegedly made some harassing statements against a protected class but not to a specific individual within that class. My understanding is that complainant didn't even know this person and no individual contact was made between either of the two. They just saw the post and brought it to the university's attention. I could be wrong but that's my understanding.
That to me, is a very different situation than a harassment claim aimed at a specific individual at a campus party for example. I get that the law may not distinguish between those two scenarios but I think it should. Unfortunately what I think doesn't matter, It just pains me to see our mutual alma-mater dragged into these issues. Thanks again for your perspective.
In this context, courts have ruled that a student becomes a student once they accept their offer of admission. I have always thought that was an odd and somewhat arbitrary standard but that's the standard that we have to use.
You are correct that there is a very big difference between generic hate speech posted online and harassment directed at a specific individual. Before I go any further, I need to give the caveat that I don't know MU's specific civil rights rules/policies. All universities must comply with Title VII which they do by creating their own internal rules/policies. In general, these policies are pretty uniform between universities, the specific legalese changes along with some details but in general they say the same thing. And MU as a private institution has a lot more leeway to play with the definition of free speech than my employer does as a public institution. The important thing is, a university must follow its own written policy. You color outside the lines on a case and that is the quickest way to get yourself dinged by the courts.
Back to the difference between generic and targeted harassment. Under most (all?) university civil rights policies, generic harassment would never rise to the level of a substantiated finding of harassment against the respondent (which is what is required for any sort of university sanctions or punishment). However, depending on how your policy is written, that doesn't mean a university can just dismiss an allegation outright. The complainant is owed a certain amount of due process which again depending on how the policy is written, could mean weeks or even months of investigation/adjudication.
Alternatively, most university policies allow for an informal process where the respondent is not given any sort of sanction but instead they resolve the situation through mediation, education, or some other alternative solution. That's how MU handled this specific situation and how most universities handle these situations. The most important thing is that the university is showing consistency in how they remedy these allegations. The safest thing to do when someone makes an allegation like this is to offer an informal remedy. That way the university can say that they properly addressed the allegation in a way consistent with their policy and they can avoid any free speech issues because no formal action is taken against the respondent.
Unfortunately, these informal processes don't come with a gag order. So while most respondents will take their lumps, reflect on their actions (or at least pretend to in front of the university administrator), and move on, the snowiest of the snowflakes will use it as an opportunity to become a false martyr and create a headache for the university.
I agree with you, it's annoying to see MU dragged into this. But we are in good company. Pretty much every research 1 institution has had at least one of these stories make its way into the local news-cycle since George Floyd was murdered. For what it is worth, part of my weekly team meeting is pulling stories like this out of the news and discussing them as case studies. No one on my team had heard about this situation until I brought it up. I also subscribe to half a dozen or so various listservs dedicated to Title VII, Title IX, University Law, etc that send me articles every day to read. To date, none of them have sent me any articles about this (and they do send articles from every persuasion, campus reform pops up a lot, the occasional breitbart). So while this story is very relevant and pervasive to us, I'm not certain it has that much reach. Small comforts.
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It's sweet that you are concerned about the futures of convicted felon Roger Stone and admitted criminal Michael Flynn.
“admitted criminal” = bc he was critical of his former boss indiscriminately killing Moslems with raids and drone strikes, and just maybe that boss didn’t like someone under him exposing hypocrisy.
And then that same boss advises the incoming administration not to further employ Flynn because he’s “dangerous” due to harsh anti-Islam statements ....even though HE is the one who criticized Obama for growing the Jihadist insurgency with the aforementioned raids and ever-burgeoning drone strikes against Moslems, including American citizens.
“admitted criminal”= bc the FBI overstepped its bounds and sneakily led him to believe an interview/interrogation was SOP for the FBI when a new administration takes over. They were blatantly trying to trip up the new administration, while silencing someone who could embarrass the former President. As much of an ass as Trump is, a smooth transition/ handoff is always the goal of the outgoing administration. Not this one. Comey has admitted to laughing at how easy it was to grill Flynn.
“admitted criminal” because he DID have normal talks with Russian emissaries, but was loyal to the President-Elect given the extent to which the media would continue to beat down on his new boss if Flynn admitted discussions. (He was wrong and admitted as much).
By all accounts, Gen Flynn was always a somewhat stoic, well-reasoned General known for prudent, data-driven leadership. What changed recently to make him partisan? Maybe his experiences changed him and lit a fire under and within him. Maybe some things came to light under the employ of the previous administration. Maybe that explains the mysterious disdain Obama had for Flynn.
While I would agree with those who question Flynn’s “folk hero” status, one cannot question his valiant heroism on the battlefield itself. In Grenada, when two fellow soldiers were seen and heard struggling in deep water, Gen Flynn dove off a 40 foot cliff and saved their lives. (I know I know...cue the “easy” war comments).
I’m sorry, but “admitted criminal” holds no water when a phony dossier was created by a corrupt far-reaching deep state to frame an incoming team. Dan Bongino was a left-leaning independent when he started working security detail for Hillary Clinton. Now he posts a daily Twitter message announcing the date and referencing the corruption of his former employers. Hmmm I wonder what persuades these people to become so passionate on the other side?
If one of your kids were unfairly called to the discipline dean’s office because of a personal vendetta against her or even you, would you be quick to agree with the label of “liar” or “criminal” for your kid when he/she refuses to give the ammunition the interrogators want in order to frame you?
Look, I’m not defending the way some fools on the right treated President Obama. He endured downright nasty, racist attacks all the time. He handled everything with dignity. However, if you can’t see the tendency toward misuse of power here, I don’t know what to say. Using the IRS to punish organizations opposed to your politics?! Using the FBI to spy on a campaign as an insurance policy?!
I wouldn’t wait in a line to get Gen. Michael Flynn’s autograph.
I wouldn’t call him a “criminal” either.
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I agree with you, it's annoying to see MU dragged into this. But we are in good company. Pretty much every research 1 institution has had at least one of these stories make its way into the local news-cycle since George Floyd was murdered. For what it is worth, part of my weekly team meeting is pulling stories like this out of the news and discussing them as case studies. No one on my team had heard about this situation until I brought it up. I also subscribe to half a dozen or so various listservs dedicated to Title VII, Title IX, University Law, etc that send me articles every day to read. To date, none of them have sent me any articles about this (and they do send articles from every persuasion, campus reform pops up a lot, the occasional breitbart). So while this story is very relevant and pervasive to us, I'm not certain it has that much reach. Small comforts.
Yep. Every school gets dragged into stuff these days. People get excited but move on pretty quickly.
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It's sweet that you are concerned about the futures of convicted felon Roger Stone and admitted criminal Michael Flynn.
Dipping your toe into Ban Lake to see how warm it is are you?
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“admitted criminal” because he pleaded guilty.
FTFY
Sorry, but anyone who uses the phrase "Deep State" non-ironically ought never be taken seriously.
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do we have proof, other than her comments, that MU even threatened to legitimately revoke her admission?
Absolutely none. This girl is at 14:45 of her fifteen minutes of fame.
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“admitted criminal” = bc he was critical of his former boss indiscriminately killing Moslems with raids and drone strikes, and just maybe that boss didn’t like someone under him exposing hypocrisy.
And then that same boss advises the incoming administration not to further employ Flynn because he’s “dangerous” due to harsh anti-Islam statements ....even though HE is the one who criticized Obama for growing the Jihadist insurgency with the aforementioned raids and ever-burgeoning drone strikes against Moslems, including American citizens.
“admitted criminal”= bc the FBI overstepped its bounds and sneakily led him to believe an interview/interrogation was SOP for the FBI when a new administration takes over. They were blatantly trying to trip up the new administration, while silencing someone who could embarrass the former President. As much of an ass as Trump is, a smooth transition/ handoff is always the goal of the outgoing administration. Not this one. Comey has admitted to laughing at how easy it was to grill Flynn.
“admitted criminal” because he DID have normal talks with Russian emissaries, but was loyal to the President-Elect given the extent to which the media would continue to beat down on his new boss if Flynn admitted discussions. (He was wrong and admitted as much).
By all accounts, Gen Flynn was always a somewhat stoic, well-reasoned General known for prudent, data-driven leadership. What changed recently to make him partisan? Maybe his experiences changed him and lit a fire under and within him. Maybe some things came to light under the employ of the previous administration. Maybe that explains the mysterious disdain Obama had for Flynn.
While I would agree with those who question Flynn’s “folk hero” status, one cannot question his valiant heroism on the battlefield itself. In Grenada, when two fellow soldiers were seen and heard struggling in deep water, Gen Flynn dove off a 40 foot cliff and saved their lives. (I know I know...cue the “easy” war comments).
I’m sorry, but “admitted criminal” holds no water when a phony dossier was created by a corrupt far-reaching deep state to frame an incoming team. Dan Bongino was a left-leaning independent when he started working security detail for Hillary Clinton. Now he posts a daily Twitter message announcing the date and referencing the corruption of his former employers. Hmmm I wonder what persuades these people to become so passionate on the other side?
If one of your kids were unfairly called to the discipline dean’s office because of a personal vendetta against her or even you, would you be quick to agree with the label of “liar” or “criminal” for your kid when he/she refuses to give the ammunition the interrogators want in order to frame you?
Look, I’m not defending the way some fools on the right treated President Obama. He endured downright nasty, racist attacks all the time. He handled everything with dignity. However, if you can’t see the tendency toward misuse of power here, I don’t know what to say. Using the IRS to punish organizations opposed to your politics?! Using the FBI to spy on a campaign as an insurance policy?!
I wouldn’t wait in a line to get Gen. Michael Flynn’s autograph.
I wouldn’t call him a “criminal” either.
Delusional, or not equipped with facts.
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What? Of course, has anyone here suggested otherwise?
Also: (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7a/6b/34/7a6b3464b78b3541cf48c52550abb916.jpg)
Her admission wasn't being reconsidered. She had to have a meeting with a university administrator where he asked her reflective questions about the potential impacts of her words on herself and others. As an employer I would look at her reaction to this and wonder if I would ever be able to give her constructive feedback because instead of reflecting, she is playing the martyr and blaming everyone but herself.
And no, half the country does not find the democratic party offensive. Half the country might lean more to the right then the left (though what that meant yesterday is not the same as it is today), but most moderates and conservatives (and liberals for that matter) I know disagree with but are not offended by someone who has a different political viewpoint then them. But yes, there is a population of snowflakes out there who can't stand someone having a different opinion than them.
Yup.
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People like this (on either side of the aisle) really bother me. She was looking to be a victim before even stepping on campus. She was looking for confrontation. And when she didn't get that she pretended she did.
It is the intellectual equivalent of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09MK6qLPWOg
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What? Of course, has anyone here suggested otherwise? Also:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7a/6b/34/7a6b3464b78b3541cf48c52550abb916.jpg)
Her admission wasn't being reconsidered. She had to have a meeting with a university administrator where he asked her reflective questions about the potential impacts of her words on herself and others. As an employer I would look at her reaction to this and wonder if I would ever be able to give her constructive feedback because instead of reflecting, she is playing the martyr and blaming everyone but herself.
And no, half the country does not find the democratic party offensive. Half the country might lean more to the right then the left (though what that meant yesterday is not the same as it is today), but most moderates and conservatives (and liberals for that matter) I know disagree with but are not offended by someone who has a different political viewpoint then them. But yes, there is a population of snowflakes out there who can't stand someone having a different opinion than them.
Well, when we see an example of a "progressive," "activist," espousing their views on any of climate, BLM, immigration, incarceration - called to meet with a university administrator to reflect and discuss their viewpoints, all will be well and equitable.
This girl shouldn't have to apologize or defend her viewpoint anymore than those who are the "progressive" "activists." We see how the "activists" respond when they dislike something - mobs, riots, vandalism. As an employer, I look at that behavior and have to wonder if I could ever provide constructive feedback, because instead of reflecting, they seem to lack emotional fortitude and need to destroy property - subsequently risking having an unhinged progressive damage my business.
Whataboutism.
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Well, when we see an example of a "progressive," "activist," espousing their views on any of climate, BLM, immigration, incarceration - called to meet with a university administrator to reflect and discuss their viewpoints, all will be well and equitable.
This girl shouldn't have to apologize or defend her viewpoint anymore than those who are the "progressive" "activists." We see how the "activists" respond when they dislike something - mobs, riots, vandalism. As an employer, I look at that behavior and have to wonder if I could ever provide constructive feedback, because instead of reflecting, they seem to lack emotional fortitude and need to destroy property - subsequently risking having an unhinged progressive damage my business.
Whataboutism.
This girl never had to apologize for anything. She's playing the victim when there is no victim. She spoke her piece. So did others. She claims MU is trying to shut her voice down and how wrong that is, and then in the same "article" she claims that MU is being very dangerous for not shutting down the voices of others. Sadly, you don't get to have it both ways. Seems like she's not the only person affiliated with MU that doesn't get that. Sad!
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Well, when we see an example of a "progressive," "activist," espousing their views on any of climate, BLM, immigration, incarceration - called to meet with a university administrator to reflect and discuss their viewpoints, all will be well and equitable.
This girl shouldn't have to apologize or defend her viewpoint anymore than those who are the "progressive" "activists." We see how the "activists" respond when they dislike something - mobs, riots, vandalism. As an employer, I look at that behavior and have to wonder if I could ever provide constructive feedback, because instead of reflecting, they seem to lack emotional fortitude and need to destroy property - subsequently risking having an unhinged progressive damage my business.
Whataboutism.
Again, you're fighting a battle no one else is fighting. Everyone agrees that if an employer finds out an applicant for one of their positions has committed acts of rioting or vandalism that can and should be used in their hiring decision, no matter what political affiliation they have. That's not what we are talking about here.
I gave you an example earlier in this thread of a liberal student who got called into my office for things he posted online. Again, universities don't give a hoot what political affiliation students have. They do care when students are accused of violating university policies on harassment/discrimination based on a protected class. MU didn't care about the pro-Trump video that this student is so proud of and keeps trying to make this about. MU did care about the alleged racist, homophobic, and transphobic comments she made online that she has been very careful to hide during her prolonged martyrdom. There's a reason why all these articles provide direct links to the video but only make vague allusions to the alleged comments. They want to make this about political affiliation when really it is about comments she made about race, sexual orientation, and gender identity.
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Is Ners posting from a different dimension? He seems to be attempting to refute points that no one has actually made.
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Perhaps why he empathizes with this soon to be student who has not actually been discriminated against in any way.
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Perhaps why he empathizes with this soon to be student who has not actually been discriminated against in any way.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeavenlyUnsteadyAsianconstablebutterfly-size_restricted.gif)
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Is Ners posting from a different dimension? He seems to be attempting to refute points that no one has actually made.
It's tough being the only person to ever have touched a basketball on a basketball fan forum. He's just a misunderstood soul who is definitely on a much higher dimension than us mere mortals.
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It seems pretty obvious that if you weren't upset that MU rescinded the WLax incoming student's admission due to racist language in her snapchat then you shouldn't be upset about MU investigating whether this girl made a racist comments as well.
Elonmusk is buying into the narrative it was about the pro trump video, not the allegedly racist remarks made on previous ones.
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Well, when we see an example of a "progressive," "activist," espousing their views on any of climate, BLM, immigration, incarceration - called to meet with a university administrator to reflect and discuss their viewpoints, all will be well and equitable.
This girl shouldn't have to apologize or defend her viewpoint anymore than those who are the "progressive" "activists." We see how the "activists" respond when they dislike something - mobs, riots, vandalism. As an employer, I look at that behavior and have to wonder if I could ever provide constructive feedback, because instead of reflecting, they seem to lack emotional fortitude and need to destroy property - subsequently risking having an unhinged progressive damage my business.
Whataboutism.
Someone spiked your kool-aid.
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Don't let people like ners and Herman spin this in an inaccurate way.
She made a pro trump video including her acceptance to MU that got a lot of attention
A person went through her previous videos that included various remarks that could be taken as homophobic, transphobic, racist, anti immigrant
She got upset that MU brought up social media posts from a long time ago because she was immature (lesson for her: the internet doesn't forget unless you delete and even then it sometimes doesn't)
MU said it'd get back to her ASAP, but then went on vacation for a week.
MU's interview was to find out how she'd react under various circumstances. Aka would she mistreat homosexual, trans, foreign, minority, Or even just liberal students she might be forced to interact in various capacities with around campus?
Ask yourself again, MU rescinded the scholarship of that Lax girl for the racist post, do you think that MU is trying to cover their tracks because twice in a year would be too much or do you think a 17yr old is overreacting to a procedural review of some overly aggressive social media statements she's made throughout high school?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jul/16/donald-trump-jr/marquette-admission-trump-samantha-pfefferle/
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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jul/16/donald-trump-jr/marquette-admission-trump-samantha-pfefferle/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jul/16/donald-trump-jr/marquette-admission-trump-samantha-pfefferle/)
and this quote from that link speaks volumes:
The account on thecollegefix.com — written by a freshman creative-writing student at the University of Wisconsin — summarized the situation as involving a threat to rescind Pfefferle’s admission over her pro-Trump TikTok video. And that’s the narrative that took hold, repeated by numerous media outlets and retweeted by Trump Jr.
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Well, when we see an example of a "progressive," "activist," espousing their views on any of climate, BLM, immigration, incarceration - called to meet with a university administrator to reflect and discuss their viewpoints, all will be well and equitable.
This girl shouldn't have to apologize or defend her viewpoint anymore than those who are the "progressive" "activists." We see how the "activists" respond when they dislike something - mobs, riots, vandalism. As an employer, I look at that behavior and have to wonder if I could ever provide constructive feedback, because instead of reflecting, they seem to lack emotional fortitude and need to destroy property - subsequently risking having an unhinged progressive damage my business.
Whataboutism.
Hold up.
So you think someone's views on BLM, climate, immigration, etc are equal to views that are racist, trans/homophobic, etc?
From what I understand of the situation, it was this girl's statements along those lines that have upset people. Not her pro-trump/conservative views.
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Hold up.
So you think someone's views on BLM, climate, immigration, etc are equal to views that are racist, trans/homophobic, etc?
From what I understand of the situation, it was this girl's statements along those lines that have upset people. Not her pro-trump/conservative views.
This is what happens when we normalize discrimination as just another political point of view. Dr. Dunkenstein here isn't the first or only person to do this.
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FTFY
Sorry, but anyone who uses the phrase "Deep State" non-ironically ought never be taken seriously.
Nor should anyone who denies its existence because their confirmation bias won’t let them see truth.
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FTFY
Sorry, but anyone who uses the phrase "Deep State" non-ironically ought never be taken seriously.
Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
Sure they didn’t press PLAY on the DeathStar soundtrack, but I’d say it qualifies as a bit of a concerted, unified front to dismiss the results of an election.
I will just head on over to my local Delusional Deplorables twelve step program now.
No I won’t. I actually disapprove of Trump. I disapprove of corruption even more.
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State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals...[snip]...to dismiss the results of an election.
wut?
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Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
Source?
There's no such thing as the Deep State. Sorry.
Coincidentally, John Oliver's show this week was all about conspiracy theories, why people are so susceptible to them and how to recognize one. It's worth a watch.
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Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/J20Z2SH5WmCnzSrbqA/giphy.gif)
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Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
Sure they didn’t press PLAY on the DeathStar soundtrack, but I’d say it qualifies as a bit of a concerted, unified front to dismiss the results of an election.
I will just head on over to my local Delusional Deplorables twelve step program now.
No I won’t. I actually disapprove of Trump. I disapprove of corruption even more.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/73cf2465688a055208715d679dc60b03/tenor.gif)
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Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
All of which was run out of the basement of a pizza parlor. Fact.
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Just for clarification, do you find it odd that State, the FBI, the President, and even a foreign intelligence service acted in concert to produce a phony document with the intention of framing individuals to create a narrative that implicates a duly elected President?
Sure they didn’t press PLAY on the DeathStar soundtrack, but I’d say it qualifies as a bit of a concerted, unified front to dismiss the results of an election.
I will just head on over to my local Delusional Deplorables twelve step program now.
No I won’t. I actually disapprove of Trump. I disapprove of corruption even more.
I Disapprove of Corruption too! Things like nepotism or utilizing your own business for financial gain at government functions or endorsing brands as politicians should be taken extremely seriously.
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https://nypost.com/2020/07/28/cancel-culture-crew-nearly-got-me-expelled-before-id-even-started-college/
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Lol
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We need an eighth thread on this?
Again, the hypocrisy of one who claims (falsely) that the university disciplined her for her free speech demanding that university punish other students for their free speech is....something.
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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The NY Post is kindling. Anything that they actually try to write on that rag, you should just believe the exact opposite.
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At this point, it is good publicity.
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The NY Post is kindling. Anything that they actually try to write on that rag, you should just believe the exact opposite.
I'm always reminded of this scene from the Val Kilmer spoof Top Secret!
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8937b2f7-fa12-4bab-beca-c1c2eee10432
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If this issue is consuming this much of her life, maybe she would be better off at a different school. But, she certainly seems to enjoy playing the victim, so she's getting what she wants out of it. Good for her I guess.
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Had not heard of this, so thank you for sharing!!!!!
This poor girl, thank god someone is finally shedding light on her plight!!!!!
Can't believe MU would treat an incoming student this way! So much for "CURA PERSONALIS"!!!!!!
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Wow she wrote her own article to keep this going? She really is desperate for attention
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Wow she wrote her own article to keep this going? She really is desperate for attention
She basically admitted she is doing this for attention in a recent instagram post, directed at a journalist from UW-Madison:
"You're nothing more than a critic, and critics don't get to play in the arena. You're a bystander taking pictures, a journalist documenting the days events. I'm the picture, I'm the days events."
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She basically admitted she is doing this for attention in a recent instagram post, directed at a journalist from UW-Madison:
"You're nothing more than a critic, and critics don't get to play in the arena. You're a bystander taking pictures, a journalist documenting the days events. I'm the picture, I'm the days events."
14 minutes, 58 seconds.
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I thought this was going to be about an actual alumnae, not someone who will be at Liberty by spring.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/28/school-social-worker-therapist-arrested-assault-senator/5527959002/
O'Reilly is a licensed physical therapist in Madison who graduated from Marquette University's Doctorate in Physical Therapy program in 2011, according to The Body Resilient's website.
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I thought this was going to be about an actual alumnae, not someone who will be at Liberty by spring.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/28/school-social-worker-therapist-arrested-assault-senator/5527959002/
O'Reilly is a licensed physical therapist in Madison who graduated from Marquette University's Doctorate in Physical Therapy program in 2011, according to The Body Resilient's website.
Ms O’Reilly has a PHD from MU? Proof education is no cure for stupid.
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Ms O’Reilly has a PHD from MU? Proof education is no cure for stupid.
I think it's a D.P.T, but yeah, not a good look for us. Madisonites must be loving it.
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I think it's a D.P.T, but yeah, not a good look for us. Madisonites must be loving it.
I assure you, this isn't even on their radar.
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The most embarrassing part of the whole incident isn't that she and her friend beat up a gay State Senator who was a supporter of the BLM cause, or that they tore down the statue of an Abolitionist, it's that they were protesting the arrest of a guy who was trying to extort a restaurant.
On July 8, Mr. Johnson was indicted on federal extortion charges and accused of threatening to destroy a business unless it paid him, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in the Western District of Wisconsin said. Prosecutors also accused Mr. Johnson of threatening another business unless he and “his associates were provided free food and beverages.”
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O'Reilly will definitely command respect in prison. I wouldn't mess with her