MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on December 30, 2015, 07:55:43 PM
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1. This isn't Presbyterian anymore, young men, this is the Big East.
2. Soft. Charmin-y.
3. I am not going to beat up on anyone. We all saw it.
4. The last time we got embarrassed like this, Wojo took away the practice uni's and the Al. What does he take away after this?
5. Need to dig deep to make the NIT.
6. Officiating wildly inconsistent, but toughness and aggressiveness gets rewarded.
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Bad (shooting) game. We'll be better.
But, it'll be an uphill battle to make ANY post season tournament this year.
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Jock strap, ai na?
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Couldn't agree more on 1 and 2. The schedule plays a huge role in that.
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SH has some long athletes and we struggled with that. Still feel we are going to get better and better as season moves on.
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How a team with our bigs gets out rebounded 49-32 to a team with relatively small bigs is pathetic. Couple that with how abysmal the interior defense was...cmon. This was disgusting to watch. And that's not even taking into account how awful our guards are at getting open and making shots.
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Saying they are a fringe NIT team after one awful half is an overreaction. That having been said - that was a totally inexcusable 20 minutes. Out-hustled the whole way and seemed like they gave up with 8 minutes to go. This is a crossroads - time for Wojo to show he can turn them around in a hurry - just like the Iowa game.
Don't forget that they clawed their way back into the lead after starting 11 in the hole. All the while not making a 3 and having their star player hit 1 FG.
I'm very disappointed - but still a believer that they can turn it around quickly. They've done it before.
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1. yep whoever designed our schedule needs to answer some tough questions. didn't prepare us at all.
2. sick of losing in the big east
3. why the big contract for a coach who has not proven he can win in the big east? honest question
4. had my hopes up beating asu, lsu, wisconsin. those hopes came crashing back to earth tonight. my expectations have been lowered big time. the big east is really good this year. if you get killed by seton hall at home it is not a good sign. sad that our program has not been able to compete in the new big east
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Couldn't agree more on 1 and 2. The schedule plays a huge role in that.
While they were clearly soft today, I don't know how much that has to do with the schedule. They weren't soft in NYC. They weren't soft in Madison.
What concerns me about today is that the Big East is a physical conference. Seton Hall was physical tonight. They better figure that out.
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Wake me up when we're good again
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SH had 20 turnovers and beat MU by 20. Thats unreal
MU had 4 points in the first 10 minutes of second half
MU had 6 offensive charge calls
Fischer had 3 walks within two feet of basket
D. Wilson will have a good game, then a bad one. This was a bad one.
Carter has played terrible last five games and tonight was his worst. Almost embarrassing for the young guy
This team is soft, especially on the boards. They miss a big banger type and have needed one for years.
No hustle for balls, handed away passes, just not there. Cheatham only one that showed up.
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Not a good game at all by MU. Welcome to the Big East for the Freshman.
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SH has some long athletes and we struggled with that. Still feel we are going to get better and better as season moves on.
great the team improves, but still doesn't make A tourney (NCAA, NIT, etc.) Then next year Ellenson leaves, and we are stuck with a team that is really soft inside (i.e Luke) and a team that can't shoot to save their lives (Henry was the only one to make a 3 tonight?)
...and this is reason to give wojo a contract extension?
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Our inability to hit a jumper and Luke missing bunny after bunny inside was brutal. Not to mention Henry routinely missing Lake Michigan from Bradford Beach.
The refs didn't beat us, but man, it could have been a lot closer. Feels like we had more offensive fouls called tonight than the last 12 games combined. Guess that was only a referee priority until conference play.
We were outplayed in the first half but somehow had the lead. Then we got bludgeoned. Still just one game. I could see us winning in Newark and still getting 10-12 in league. Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call.
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Sandy played his worst game at MU.
Traci played like he was in high school.
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Played like freshmen.Delgado had his way with Henry and Luke.
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This team is soft, especially on the boards. They miss a big banger type and have needed one for years.
Same problem as the last two seasons.
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1. This isn't Presbyterian anymore, young men, this is the Big East.
2. Soft. Charmin-y.
3. I am not going to beat up on anyone. We all saw it.
4. The last time we got embarrassed like this, Wojo took away the practice uni's and the Al. What does he take away after this?
5. Need to dig deep to make the NIT.
6. Officiating wildly inconsistent, but toughness and aggressiveness gets rewarded.
What we miss the most is the toughness that was instilled by Buzz.
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And Derrick Wilson as an on-ball defender. (and Jimmy Butler....and Jae Crowder..... and Vander Blue...)
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1. This isn't Presbyterian anymore, young men, this is the Big East.
2. Soft. Charmin-y.
3. I am not going to beat up on anyone. We all saw it.
4. The last time we got embarrassed like this, Wojo took away the practice uni's and the Al. What does he take away after this?
5. Need to dig deep to make the NIT.
6. Officiating wildly inconsistent, but toughness and aggressiveness gets rewarded.
The Rec Center...AND the Rec Plex. Yes, even the Rec Plex.
The team needs to start practicing on that blacktop court next to O'Donnell.
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It was one game. Got 17 to go. Can't get down on the team. Hope they are ready Saturday. Go MU!
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Guess I'm glad I only saw the first half.
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Unfortunately we can not fix poor shooters, some poor jumpers and slow reflexes. We can fix the D, execute better play making, improve passing and reduce turnovers in time. Will it be enough to be competitive in the BE this year? I let you decide.
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Go MU!
Always.
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1. yep whoever designed our schedule needs to answer some tough questions. didn't prepare us at all.
2. sick of losing in the big east
3. why the big contract for a coach who has not proven he can win in the big east? honest question
4. had my hopes up beating asu, lsu, wisconsin. those hopes came crashing back to earth tonight. my expectations have been lowered big time. the big east is really good this year. if you get killed by seton hall at home it is not a good sign. sad that our program has not been able to compete in the new big east
Agree on all accounts. would love an answer to #3.
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Same problem as the last two seasons.
They just need a 6ft 8 230 pound rebounder, intimidator type player underneath. Fischer is way too soft, Henry wants to be Kevin Durant and Cohen is a string bean. Been like that for years and not looking forward to some of the BE teams with the bangers inside. Showed up tonight in first game.
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Games like tonight continue to make me think HE will be with us next year. Athleticism isn't there, or the range.
Then he'll go for 25 next game.
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They just need a 6ft 8 230 pound rebounder, intimidator type player underneath. Fischer is way too soft, Henry wants to be Kevin Durant and Cohen is a string bean. Been like that for years and not looking forward to some of the BE teams with the bangers inside. Showed up tonight in first game.
We need a lot. We need the player described above as well as true PG and guard who can hit from behind the arc.
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The Rec Center...AND the Rec Plex. Yes, even the Rec Plex.
The team needs to start practicing on that blacktop court next to O'Donnell.
And make them shovel it first.
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They just need a 6ft 8 230 pound rebounder, intimidator type player underneath. Fischer is way too soft, Henry wants to be Kevin Durant and Cohen is a string bean. Been like that for years and not looking forward to some of the BE teams with the bangers inside. Showed up tonight in first game.
It really is an odd makeup to the team. Teams with lots of...wait for it...switchable will give us fits.
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Games like tonight continue to make me think HE will be with us next year. Athleticism isn't there, or the range.
Then he'll go for 25 next game.
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1) MU entire offense in 2nd half was get it into the front court and watch a guy go one-on-one. Might work against weaker, less-talented noncon opponents, but not in BE.
2) Seton Hall burned MU at least 5x in 2nd half with extra pass for weak side lay-in. Hall making extra passes and moving without the ball was a lesson in hustle and good basketball. We stood around and watched.
3) So far I am underwhelmed with the Henry Ellenson experience. Hope he gets better once he gains experience.
4) The Wojo contract extension - while a different topic altogether - is a head scratcher. I just do not think it was necessary right now. Much of what happened tonight was inability to make adjustments - esp defensively. That is part coaching.
And this was Seton Hall. Could be an interesting conference schedule.
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Games like tonight continue to make me think HE will be with us next year. Athleticism isn't there, or the range.
Then he'll go for 25 next game.
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WTF??????
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I will feel better tomorrow, but right now I miss the mentally, physically tough JUCO's with a chip on their shoulders.
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It really is an odd makeup to the team. Teams with lots of...wait for it...switchable will give us fits.
This is why I don't get the switchable criticism with Buzz. When he got the right switchables, MU was fine. They were physical and athletic enough to play in the BE.
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I will feel better tomorrow, but right now I miss the mentally, physically tough JUCO's with a chip on their shoulders.
Me 2.
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If we gave out "Dud of the Game" awards after losses I would give this game's honors to everyone except Cheatnam and Wally.
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Saying they are a fringe NIT team after one awful half is an overreaction. That having been said - that was a totally inexcusable 20 minutes. Out-hustled the whole way and seemed like they gave up with 8 minutes to go. This is a crossroads - time for Wojo to show he can turn them around in a hurry - just like the Iowa game.
Don't forget that they clawed their way back into the lead after starting 11 in the hole. All the while not making a 3 and having their star player hit 1 FG.
I'm very disappointed - but still a believer that they can turn it around quickly. They've done it before.
+1 I thought the stretch in the first half that had us recover from an early 11 point deficit to take the lead was just beautiful basketball. It was fueled by tough defense, great ball movement, toughness and hustle and points both in the paint and on the break. No idea where that went in the second half. They are young, much like the Iowa game was a wakeup call on what it takes against an experienced, talented team…this is a wakeup call on what the Big East is all about.
There were positives to take away from this (Cheatham continues to ooze potential….Wally had some impact and a nice run…Wojo is saying the right things and trying to instill toughness, defense, smarts, etc…up to the players to execute) but lots to learn from for a young team. Henry is not going to be off like that every night…some night the bunnies will fall for Luke…our guards will learn the importance of protecting the ball or they will not be on the court. It is one horrible second half to the first conference game…
An added annoyance during the second half…on the announcers NCAA tourney projections…how the f%ck could they list Wisconsin as on the bubble as the first 4 out? huh? C'mon Deadspin…can you please break the Bo story tonight and give us some relief from the pain of this loss?
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Me 2.
count me in as well. this team is soft. imagine if they played against our juco led teams with guys like butler, crowder, and djo
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1) MU entire offense in 2nd half was get it into the front court and watch a guy go one-on-one. Might work against weaker, less-talented noncon opponents, but not in BE.
2) Seton Hall burned MU at least 5x in 2nd half with extra pass for weak side lay-in. Hall making extra passes and moving without the ball was a lesson in hustle and good basketball. We stood around and watched.
3) So far I am underwhelmed with the Henry Ellenson experience. Hope he gets better once he gains experience.
4) The Wojo contract extension - while a different topic altogether - is a head scratcher. I just do not think it was necessary right now. Much of what happened tonight was inability to make adjustments - esp defensively. That is part coaching.
WRT #3. Ellenson is fine with a poor shooting night. Had 14 boards. In fact he was the one player I thought looked physically like he belonged out there.
WRT #4. I don't care about the contract that much, but it is the same problem I had with Wojo last year. No change up. No adjustment. Willard took Haanif out of the game in the second half by shading a defender to him. Wojo didn't really do...well...anything.
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SH had 20 turnovers and beat MU by 20. Thats unreal
MU had 4 points in the first 10 minutes of second half
MU had 6 offensive charge calls
Fischer had 3 walks within two feet of basket
D. Wilson will have a good game, then a bad one. This was a bad one.
Carter has played terrible last five games and tonight was his worst. Almost embarrassing for the young guy
This team is soft, especially on the boards. They miss a big banger type and have needed one for years.
No hustle for balls, handed away passes, just not there. Cheatham only one that showed up.
i just pray that carter does not become the next derrick wilson
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They just need a 6ft 8 230 pound rebounder, intimidator type player underneath. Fischer is way too soft, Henry wants to be Kevin Durant and Cohen is a string bean. Been like that for years and not looking forward to some of the BE teams with the bangers inside. Showed up tonight in first game.
We need a lot. We need the player described above as well as true PG and guard who can hit from behind the arc.
I still believe that Traci will be that true PG once he gets used to the college/BEast game. We'll have Rowsey next year who seems to be that shooter. A banger does seem like it would be valuable. I agree that it's been a long time.
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I will feel better tomorrow, but right now I miss the mentally, physically tough JUCO's with a chip on their shoulders.
Plenty of Jucos without chips on shoulder just as there are plenty of non Jucos with. It's desire, toughness, mentality driven desire.
The head coach we have is a prime example. So were many of his non Juco teammates at Duke. Tough as nails.
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We are fine.
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I don't get the "this team is soft"….they were in foul trouble…when they were aggressive they were getting whistled like crazy for offensive fouls….rewatch the Wisconsin game…or even much of the first half...sure didn't look "soft" to me.
What would not looking soft even look like? Rebounding advantage…I get that…winning the 50/50 balls…I get that….spewing blood from the eyeballs…what?
Just didn't have it tonight for the second half…I call it more inexperience that lack of toughness (however that is measured).
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We are fine.
if by fine you mean bottom half of the Beast, borderline NIT team, then I agree we are just fine.
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I don't get the "this team is soft"….they were in foul trouble…when they were aggressive they were getting whistled like crazy for offensive fouls….rewatch the Wisconsin game…or even much of the first half...sure didn't look "soft" to me.
What would not looking soft even look like? Rebounding advantage…I get that…winning the 50/50 balls…I get that….spewing blood from the eyeballs…what?
Just didn't have it tonight for the second half…I call it more inexperience that lack of toughness (however that is measured).
Luke and Henry were getting pushed off their spots and constantly misfiring due mostly to physical defense.
And they were brutally outrebounded. There were 37 rebounding opportunities due to Seton Hall missing shots. SHU got 16 of them. Smaller team pushed Marquette around on the boards all night.
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Luke and Henry were getting pushed off their spots and constantly misfiring due mostly to physical defense.
And they were brutally outrebounded. There were 37 rebounding opportunities due to Seton Hall missing shots. SHU got 16 of them. Smaller team pushed Marquette around on the boards all night.
Good reply. Plus SH out rebounded MU by 17. 49 to 32.
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if by fine you mean bottom half of the Beast, borderline NIT team, then I agree we are just fine.
Agree 100%
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Sandy played his worst game at MU.
Traci played like he was in high school.
And Fischer can't blame the shoulder anymore. So freaking soft.
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Soft is getting out rebounded by 17 when you have the two tallest players on the floor.
Soft is being unable to hold position in the post.
Soft is not moving your feet on defense.
Soft is never coming up with a loose ball.
Soft is standing around on offense.
Soft is getting beat down the floor.
First Big East game for 6 of the players. The question is how they respond to this kick to the nads.
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Luke and Henry were getting pushed off their spots and constantly misfiring due mostly to physical defense.
And they were brutally outrebounded. There were 37 rebounding opportunities due to Seton Hall missing shots. SHU got 16 of them. Smaller team pushed Marquette around on the boards all night.
And Luke and Henry had 23 out of our 32 rebounds….it wasn't like they were getting pushed out of the arena like rag dolls.
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And Luke and Henry had 23 out of our 32 rebounds….it wasn't like they were getting pushed out of the arena like rag dolls.
I thought Henry was better than Luke. But Luke was manhandled.
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1) MU entire offense in 2nd half was get it into the front court and watch a guy go one-on-one. Might work against weaker, less-talented noncon opponents, but not in BE.
2) Seton Hall burned MU at least 5x in 2nd half with extra pass for weak side lay-in. Hall making extra passes and moving without the ball was a lesson in hustle and good basketball. We stood around and watched.
3) So far I am underwhelmed with the Henry Ellenson experience. Hope he gets better once he gains experience.
4) The Wojo contract extension - while a different topic altogether - is a head scratcher. I just do not think it was necessary right now. Much of what happened tonight was inability to make adjustments - esp defensively. That is part coaching.
And this was Seton Hall. Could be an interesting conference schedule.
Matt Velazquez said it was because coaches recruting same guys as Wojo were telling recruits Wojo will go to Duke as soon as job is available and extension was a way to stop rumors.
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I thought Henry was better than Luke. But Luke was manhandled.
I agree. Luke needs a stronger presence in the paint on offense…he gets the ball in position then uses the same move to back in and go up fairly weekly with the left hand while getting pushed out from the hoop…would rather him take it stronger to the hoop and either draw the foul or get a better finish.
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I thought Henry was better than Luke. But Luke was manhandled.
Many off their rebounds were putbacks in which most of the time they missed, with offensive tip chances. Henry had three on one play.
Doesn't matter who had what, the team was outbound by 17, not 2, 3......by bigger and stronger SH players.
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Wow ... this is a tough place to come after a loss.
We were down 2 with 14 minutes left and down 5 with 10 1/2 minutes to play. We were struggling some -- couldn't make an effen shot! -- but we were playing pretty tough.
Then we sucked, yes.
I am not going to say "the season is hopeless" based on that.
Go Marquette.
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Wojo is obviously a Duke/ACC guy. That team/conference is the most finesse in all of college basketball. quite frankly, i hate watching rock fights. Buzz liked them. Dixon liked them. Cincy liked them. Unfortunately, i think wojo will have to adjust because the rest of the league wont suddenly become a finesse conference. I dont loke it but it is what it is.
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Wojo is obviously a Duke/ACC guy. That team/conference is the most finesse in all of college basketball. quite frankly, i hate watching rock fights. Buzz liked them. Dixon liked them. Cincy liked them. Unfortunately, i think wojo will have to adjust because the rest of the league wont suddenly become a finesse conference. I dont loke it but it is what it is.
The Big East is a rock fight league. It is what it is.
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The Big East is a rock fight league. It is what it is.
Yeah, thats what i said...
How did UConn win championships while in the BE? Great guard play that was protected in the ncaa tourney. In the BE, a defender can get beat off the dribble and arm bar the dribbler off his line and into the stands. Thats a foul in the ncaat.
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Wow ... this is a tough place to come after a loss.
We were down 2 with 14 minutes left and down 5 with 10 1/2 minutes to play. We were struggling some -- couldn't make an effen shot! -- but we were playing pretty tough.
Then we sucked, yes.
I am not going to say "the season is hopeless" based on that.
Go Marquette.
You are correct about the scores. But the game was slipping away, the sled was starting down the hill, the train was leaving the station, everybody watching could feel it and not one player stepped up. Young. Lacking in leadership. And Wojo is being far harsher in his postgame than we are.
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You are correct about the scores. But the game was slipping away, the sled was starting down the hill, the train was leaving the station, everybody watching could feel it and not one player stepped up. Young. Lacking in leadership. And Wojo is being far harsher in his postgame than we are.
I'm glad Wojo is telling it like it is. That's his job.
But is he all but saying the season is over and this year is going to be just like last year?
I'm not going to argue with you, tower. I like you and we agree on most things. And I understand why lots of folks are frustrated. I'm just not ready to get all woe-is-us over a bad 10-15 minutes of basketball.
Go Marquette!
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Yeah, thats what i said...
How did UConn win championships while in the BE? Great guard play that was protected in the ncaa tourney. In the BE, a defender can get beat off the dribble and arm bar the dribbler off his line and into the stands. Thats a foul in the ncaat.
There were 47 fouls called tonight. Offensive players are always protected nowadays. Every time they "emphasize" the rules every couple of years it makes college basketball tougher and tougher to watch.
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Wow ... this is a tough place to come after a loss.
We were down 2 with 14 minutes left and down 5 with 10 1/2 minutes to play. We were struggling some -- couldn't make an effen shot! -- but we were playing pretty tough.
Then we sucked, yes.
I am not going to say "the season is hopeless" based on that.
Go Marquette.
This is exactly right. One loss and we forget all about NYC and Madison. This is one notch in the loss column. Hardly season ending. I'll be curious to see reactions if we beat Georgetown on Saturday. Will we be a certain tourney team with second weekend aspirations?
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Many off their rebounds were putbacks in which most of the time they missed, with offensive tip chances. Henry had three on one play.
Doesn't matter who had what, the team was outbound by 17, not 2, 3......by bigger and stronger SH players.
You could see how Luke was being pushed from the basket by all of the shots to the front of the rim. He has got to be more forceful and adjust his shot if he can't power in.
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Wojo is obviously a Duke/ACC guy. That team/conference is the most finesse in all of college basketball. quite frankly, i hate watching rock fights. Buzz liked them. Dixon liked them. Cincy liked them. Unfortunately, i think wojo will have to adjust because the rest of the league wont suddenly become a finesse conference. I dont loke it but it is what it is.
That feels like a gross generalization. Duke has always played physical basketball, including our current coach. UNC, Wake, Maryland (when they were in the conference), NC State...clubs play hard, physical hoops.
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You could see how Luke was being pushed from the basket by all of the shots to the front of the rim. He has got to be more forceful and adjust his shot if he can't power in.
I am determined to not get overly negative, and I like to think this is only a fact-based observation and not a "rip" ...
The few folks who actually believe Luke can have an NBA career need to remember this game (and others like it) every time those thoughts creep into their minds. Luke has enough trouble dealing with the kind of bigs Seton Hall has.
And I like Luke a lot. I think he is a good college player with some potential to get even better. He simply does not have an NBA future -- and a house-full of NBA scouts witnessed that firsthand tonight.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
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The few folks who actually believe Luke can have an NBA career need to remember this game (and others like it) every time those thoughts creep into their minds. Luke has enough trouble dealing with the kind of bigs Seton Hall has.
And I like Luke a lot. I think he is a good college player with some potential to get even better. He simply does not have an NBA future -- and a house-full of NBA scouts witnessed that firsthand tonight.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
Agreed on all counts.
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1. yep whoever designed our schedule needs to answer some tough questions. didn't prepare us at all.
Wojo was pretty smart. Going 10-2 against a bunch of nobodies got him a contract extension worth $5,000,000 give or take.
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That feels like a gross generalization. Duke has always played physical basketball, including our current coach. UNC, Wake, Maryland (when they were in the conference), NC State...clubs play hard, physical hoops.
I disagree.
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C'mon Deadspin…can you please break the Bo story tonight and give us some relief from the pain of this loss?
UW was in our backyard watching Joey Hauser tonight also during this sh*t show
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Wojo was pretty smart. Going 10-2 against a bunch of nobodies got him a contract extension worth $5,000,000 give or take.
So your position is that Wojo purposely scheduled a soft non conference schedule, lied to build up trust with the administration/board of trustees/major donors to hide his inabilities, so that he could sign a big dollar contract extension?
You sir are and idiot of biblical proportions if you believe that.
edit - hope i missed the teal
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How did wojo not get a t tonight? My favorite was when they called a weak offensive foul on seton hall at the end of the game and wojo was giving them crap on even that call in our favor.
Not sure how I feel about it. Love the intensity but at the same time you need to teach your players the calls can't be controlled and you just need to focus on playing your best. It's one thing to give a ref an ear full after a bad call but it was a little embarrassing watching him do it all night.
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So your position is that Wojo purposely scheduled a soft non conference schedule, lied to build up trust with the administration/board of trustees/major donors to hide his inabilities, so that he could sign a big dollar contract extension?
You sir are and idiot of biblical proportions if you believe that.
edit - hope i missed the teal
I do not think Wojo planned it that way, but it worked out very well for him.
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The thing that stood out to me about Seton Hall was their hand quickness. Everyone of their players had quicker hands when it came to rebounding a ball that was not cleanly rebounded by someone. It was the first time I realized that Fischer is not quick to react to rebounds that do not come directly to him.
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Saying they are a fringe NIT team after one awful half is an overreaction. That having been said - that was a totally inexcusable 20 minutes. Out-hustled the whole way and seemed like they gave up with 8 minutes to go. This is a crossroads - time for Wojo to show he can turn them around in a hurry - just like the Iowa game.
Don't forget that they clawed their way back into the lead after starting 11 in the hole. All the while not making a 3 and having their star player hit 1 FG.
I'm very disappointed - but still a believer that they can turn it around quickly. They've done it before.
I'd say there was 30 minutes of awfulness with 10 minutes of running Seton Hall out of the building in the middle.
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Definitely a very disappointing performance from the boys tonight and hard to find silver lining. That said, I am much higher on this time and direction of program than I have been in two plus years. Of all the negatives tonight the biggest remains PG IMO. The head coach was an above average PG and I have confidence he will get that straightened out.
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We're overreacting just like we overreacted after Iowa. We have a young team. Nights like this are going to happen. It'll happen again this year too.
Let's see how we play against Georgetown on Saturday. We can win that game. If we come out flat and get rolled over, then maybe we have a problem. But I'm not going to freak out after one bad half.
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I am determined to not get overly negative, and I like to think this is only a fact-based observation and not a "rip" ...
The few folks who actually believe Luke can have an NBA career need to remember this game (and others like it) every time those thoughts creep into their minds. Luke has enough trouble dealing with the kind of bigs Seton Hall has.
And I like Luke a lot. I think he is a good college player with some potential to get even better. He simply does not have an NBA future -- and a house-full of NBA scouts witnessed that firsthand tonight.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
Henrys stock won't drop regardless if he ever steps on the college court again.
Who, by the way, had these thoughts? I havent read one of them.
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What we miss the most is the toughness that was instilled by Buzz.
Absolutely, this team lacks toughest & drive and in my opinion that falls on the coach. Whether it's an inability to instill it or recruiting players incapable of it, the lack of a will to win falls on the coaching staff.
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I am determined to not get overly negative, and I like to think this is only a fact-based observation and not a "rip" ...
The few folks who actually believe Luke can have an NBA career need to remember this game (and others like it) every time those thoughts creep into their minds. Luke has enough trouble dealing with the kind of bigs Seton Hall has.
And I like Luke a lot. I think he is a good college player with some potential to get even better. He simply does not have an NBA future -- and a house-full of NBA scouts witnessed that firsthand tonight.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
1. Whoever said Luke had an NBA career? And if he doesn't, so what?
2. Not sure why Fisher is getting the brunt of the complaints here. 12 points, 9 rebounds, 6 of 11 shooting.On the other hand- Henry: 3 for 14, Duane: 0 -4 from 3, Haanif and Sandy: o rebounds between them.
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The thing that stood out to me about Seton Hall was their hand quickness. Everyone of their players had quicker hands when it came to rebounding a ball that was not cleanly rebounded by someone.
agree.......what scares me is that, in the games i've seen, Butler has MUCH quicker hands.
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1. Whoever said Luke had an NBA career? And if he doesn't, so what?
2. Not sure why Fisher is getting the brunt of the complaints here. 12 points, 9 rebounds, 6 of 11 shooting.On the other hand- Henry: 3 for 14, Duane: 0 -4 from 3, Haanif and Sandy: o rebounds between them.
I thought Delgado did an excellant job on Fischer. There were several times in the second half where Fischer backed him down and missed the shot. Delgado played great defense without fouling.
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I love coming here after a loss. Fact is, they are playing to form. Some nights they will thrill and other times they will frustrate.
This is a very young team so it is overly ambitious to expect consistent excellence. Also, because they do have talent it is unreasonable to expect persistent failure.
Enjoy the ride gents. This is like golf - find the beauty and overlook the hooks and slices. You'll appreciate it better.
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I am determined to not get overly negative, and I like to think this is only a fact-based observation and not a "rip" ...
The few folks who actually believe Luke can have an NBA career need to remember this game (and others like it) every time those thoughts creep into their minds. Luke has enough trouble dealing with the kind of bigs Seton Hall has.
And I like Luke a lot. I think he is a good college player with some potential to get even better. He simply does not have an NBA future -- and a house-full of NBA scouts witnessed that firsthand tonight.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
The bolded is spot on. I am overly harsh on Luke, but that is because I think he can be a lot better. He is not strong in the paint right now and is not a "fighter". I mean the latter in the Crowder type of way. He plays basketball by the book. We need a fighter in the paint not a tactician.
His rebounds are area rebounds where he boxes out. Damn near could let it bounce 5 times. But he won't fight for a contested rebound.
We need Luke to develop a mean streak.
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I disagree.
Well, we'll just agree to disagree. People like Laettner were absolute sunsofbitches nasty and physical. Wojo no different, Hurley, etc. MJ, Tim Duncan, Battier, Worthy, Bias, David Thompson....etc.
I guess the one question I would have for you, do you think Wojo was tough? Do you think the Duke program that Coach K puts out there is not tough? I sure do, and he will demand that tough as nails approach with his teams.
(http://www.oocities.org/wolfpackr_archiefan/0323_duke_ky.jpg)
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Henrys stock won't drop regardless if he ever steps on the college court again.
Who, by the way, had these thoughts? I havent read one of them.
Disagree strongly with this statement. If his stock isn't capable of dropping, then NBA teams wouldn't be sending 25 scouts to games. Of course stock can drop and rise, unless I'm completely misreading your statement.
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I love coming here after a loss. Fact is, they are playing to form. Some nights they will thrill and other times they will frustrate.
This is a very young team so it is overly ambitious to expect consistent excellence. Also, because they do have talent it is unreasonable to expect persistent failure.
Enjoy the ride gents. This is like golf - find the beauty and overlook the hooks and slices. You'll appreciate it better.
Well said
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Well, we'll just agree to disagree. People like Laettner were absolute sunsofbitches nasty and physical. Wojo no different, Hurley, etc. MJ, Tim Duncan, Battier, Worthy, Bias, David Thompson....etc.
I guess the one question I would have for you, do you think Wojo was tough? Do you think the Duke program that Coach K puts out there is not tough? I sure do, and he will demand that tough as nails approach with his teams.
(http://www.oocities.org/wolfpackr_archiefan/0323_duke_ky.jpg)
Completely agree with you.
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That was a tough game to watch. Hard to find many positives. But the team that we saw tonight was not the team we will see the rest of the season.
Keefe said it much better than I ever could, but here's my best attempt.
The team we saw in the first half was a little below what the average performance of this team should reasonably be. The 2nd half was this teams floor. I don't think they will ever go lower. We didn't get to see this team teach their ceiling during this game.
I wouldn't be surprised if we blew out Georgetown and then beat providence. I also wouldn't be surprised if we started 0-3. This team is young and what we get will be a nightly surprise but a joy to watch.
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The bolded is spot on. I am overly harsh on Luke, but that is because I think he can be a lot better. He is not strong in the paint right now and is not a "fighter". I mean the latter in the Crowder type of way. He plays basketball by the book. We need a fighter in the paint not a tactician.
He's not a "Crowder type". He 's not the same as a former Big East player of the year and a guy who averages 14 point per game for the Celtics? :o I'm happy he's a Luke Fisher type. And no rational person believes he will have an NBA career so forget that straw man.
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The other day I noted that we're going to win some we shouldn't win and lose some we should not lose.
What I can't figure out is what happened in the second half. I didn't see the game so I don't know. But if you put up 40 points and play your opponent even in the first half, something very different happened in the second half.
Did they change defenses? Did they shoot the lights out? Did they get tougher on us? I just really don't know but to have the drop-off we did in the second half after playing them even in the first is very disappointing. I've seen the reports from a Marquette perspective, but I would be curious if Seton Hall did anything we weren't ready for?
Well, lets see where things take us.
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He's not a "Crowder type". He 's not the same as a former Big East player of the year and a guy who averages 14 point per game for the Celtics? :o I'm happy he's a Luke Fisher type. And no rational person believes he will have an NBA career so forget that straw man.
Luke is the most talented true Center we have had in many years. Sorry he is not Shaq, but he is the best we have had in a long time and he is a tremendous asset on the court. People make it sound like he would lose a pillow fight to a kitten. He has lots of room for improvement and is still developing but that does not diminish the impact he is having on the program and team. Count me as a fan.
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The problem was that we stuck to the game plan and waited for Seton Hall to revert to form. Seton Hall adjusted their game plan at half time and blew by us. Some times the theory of large numbers does not work, it does not work when you don't have enough numbers. I think we did not have a good handle on what Seton Hall had going for them and did not adjust.
A lot of us, WoJo included, seem to think it is all about toughness and maturity, I think that is only part of it. First things first, so first we have to get "mature" then we can gather smart.
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Worst offensive efficiency game of the year. Haanif saved the first half but the Hall focused on him with the halftime adjustments. Not a bad defensive effort in space.
That said, Wojo has built a finesse team for the Big East. MU doesn't have a banger on the team to protect Henry and Luke. So, our guards need to rebound and grab the 50/50 balls in the Big East, plain and simple. I said this early in the year: MU is not a good rebounding team.
Lastly, Duane needs to start at PG. This team turns it over way too much.
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Disagree strongly with this statement. If his stock isn't capable of dropping, then NBA teams wouldn't be sending 25 scouts to games. Of course stock can drop and rise, unless I'm completely misreading your statement.
They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
I was responding to the quote above form '82.
My point was HE's stat line will have little effect on his draft status. As 82 said, HE did not shoot the ball well last night. Will have zero effect on his draft status.
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Lastly, Duane needs to start at PG. This team turns it over way too much.
They did that to start the second half and he took a number of poor shots. Maybe his mindset will be different if they give him the point from the outset, but they just wasted 6 months where they could have had him run the point to start with.
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The morning after: I have been less optimistic than most about this team. All along, I have worried about PG play, who the third big would be, leadership, lack of experience, etc. Last night was 30 minutes of uninspired play, and 10 minutes of Haanif going off. However, from a big picture perspective, it was not that much different than I expected. There will be highs, there will be more lows.
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They did that to start the second half and he took a number of poor shots. Maybe his mindset will be different if they give him the point from the outset, but they just wasted 6 months where they could have had him run the point to start with.
Haanif was at point, no?
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Haanif was at point, no?
Maybe they both were, but the times I saw Duane bringing it up I saw him take a couple shots real early.
I would consider a line-up of...
Duane
JJJ
Haanif
Hank
Luke
JJJ looked like he wasn't overwhelmed by the athleticism while Sandy looked a little out of place. MU was at its best with that line up out there last night, and I know JJJ drives some people nuts, but his game might be better for BE play right now.
And Wally should have played more in the second half. He isn't a great player by any means, but the guy has major D1 experience.
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Maybe they both were, but the times I saw Duane bringing it up I saw him take a couple shots real early.
I would consider a line-up of...
Duane
JJJ
Haanif
Hank
Luke
JJJ looked like he wasn't overwhelmed by the athleticism while Sandy looked a little out of place. MU was at its best with that line up out there last night, and I know JJJ drives some people nuts, but his game might be better for BE play right now.
And Wally should have played more in the second half. He isn't a great player by any means, but the guy has major D1 experience.
Agree. Sandy and Haanif had zero rebounds. Duane, Traci and JJJ had one each. Wally had four. Why Wally only saw garbage minutes in the 2nd half was a head scratcher. In the War of Attrition, MU got beat up.
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And Derrick Wilson as an on-ball defender.
No.
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Maybe they both were, but the times I saw Duane bringing it up I saw him take a couple shots real early.
I would consider a line-up of...
Duane
JJJ
Haanif
Hank
Luke
JJJ looked like he wasn't overwhelmed by the athleticism while Sandy looked a little out of place. MU was at its best with that line up out there last night, and I know JJJ drives some people nuts, but his game might be better for BE play right now.
And Wally should have played more in the second half. He isn't a great player by any means, but the guy has major D1 experience.
Yeah JJJ needs more run. He can get a bucket off the dribble in the half court offense, Sandy can't yet (and I really like Sandy). Wojo needs to insert him quicker when the offense goes flat/can't get dribble penetration. He'll figure it out.
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I love coming here after a loss. Fact is, they are playing to form. Some nights they will thrill and other times they will frustrate.
This is a very young team so it is overly ambitious to expect consistent excellence. Also, because they do have talent it is unreasonable to expect persistent failure.
Enjoy the ride gents. This is like golf - find the beauty and overlook the hooks and slices. You'll appreciate it better.
Exactly why I hate golf.
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Maybe they both were, but the times I saw Duane bringing it up I saw him take a couple shots real early.
I would consider a line-up of...
Duane
JJJ
Haanif
Hank
Luke
JJJ looked like he wasn't overwhelmed by the athleticism while Sandy looked a little out of place. MU was at its best with that line up out there last night, and I know JJJ drives some people nuts, but his game might be better for BE play right now.
And Wally should have played more in the second half. He isn't a great player by any means, but the guy has major D1 experience.
I do think that would be a better lineup right now. We need what experience we have out there. My main issue is not having Traci at the point, but he's sloppy right now. I think having Duane and Haney share the point might work, then bring Traci in to help when teams press. If those guys are your 1/2 options, run them like we did last year with Derrick, Carlino, and Duane. All three should be able to get 20+ mpg.
I'm conflicted on Sandy. He had a rough go last night. Whitehead was difficult for him to handle. He's generally done well handling the other team's best offensive player. Not just the cupcakes, either. The problem last night was that he couldn't keep up with Whitehead and he didn't offset the mediocre defense with offense. I don't expect JJ would do a ton better defensively, but at least he brings more on offense.
Another issue, that three-point shooting was woeful. So woeful, it was worse than Woelfel. It wasn't just the percentage, but it felt like many of those were forced. I hate the three-point shots where a guy catches, looks around, then puts up the three. Those never feel in rhythm and rarely seem to fall. With how bad our rebounding was, those were killers. Not only missing out on points, but giving up the possession completely. I wasn't a fan of any of Hank's threes last night, even the one that managed to go in (one had to fall, right?).
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I thought Delgado did an excellant job on Fischer. There were several times in the second half where Fischer backed him down and missed the shot. Delgado played great defense without fouling.
Fisher is and will be a force in the BEast, but I would like to see a little more trajectory on those hook shots. A lot of them were just flat. Suspect it's merely a mechanical issue that can be worked out in short order.
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I also agree that would be a better lineup, with Du and Hanie sharing the point. I'm a big Du fan but there were times he just stood around the 3 arc waiting and watching the ball being passed around. He doesn't move much without the ball.
Sandy looked like he hadn't played much major college ball last night, as opposed to other games this season when he looked comfortable attacking the basket and playing good D. I thought JjJ attacked the hoop at times and deserves to get a little more run.
Put me in the camp of those believing this isn't how every game will go. Shots need to fall and Wojo needs to make adjustments when needed.
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Fisher is and will be a force in the BEast, but I would like to see a little more trajectory on those hook shots. A lot of them were just flat. Suspect it's merely a mechanical issue that can be worked out in short order.
Agreed. It was really frustrating to watch in the second half how he could consistently back Delgado down then throw up a weak effort that inevitably careened out and into the waiting defenders arms.
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No doubt this game was ugly. Ooh! We lost to Seton Hall. Can't get any worse. I happen to think the Pirates have a good team and most of them are only Sophs. Hope we bounce back.
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We're overreacting just like we overreacted after Iowa. We have a young team. Nights like this are going to happen. It'll happen again this year too.
Let's see how we play against Georgetown on Saturday. We can win that game. If we come out flat and get rolled over, then maybe we have a problem. But I'm not going to freak out after one bad half.
GU is not that good this year but it is another but weaker test. So far we are 0-2 against good teams this year.. Always hope for the best but realistically, at best NIT.
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Fisher is and will be a force in the BEast, but I would like to see a little more trajectory on those hook shots. A lot of them were just flat. Suspect it's merely a mechanical issue that can be worked out in short order.
He was taking them from to far out as Delgado held his ground on defense. The way I saw it is that Fischer made up his mind he was going to shoot instead of passing the ball out and maybe reestablishing himself.
Other things that went wrong that also can be fixed. Cohen had a bad game highlighted by him getting an offensive foul when he should of passed the ball to Haanif. We were down, but still in the game at that point. Wilson took a couple of quick threes. In some games that is okay, if you have been hitting your threes. However, Wilson was not on so he should of been in less of a hurry to shoot it. This is more of a comment, does Ellenson's strength keep him from getting foul calls? To me he seems to get hit a lot on drives and never seems to get a fouled called.
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Henrys stock won't drop regardless if he ever steps on the college court again.
Who, by the way, had these thoughts? I havent read one of them.
I don't have the kind of memory that lets me instantly recall who said what on Scoop, but there have been a few folks who regularly say silly stuff like, "Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA. He'll be here four years."
Similarly, there have been some folks on here claiming that Luke can be an NBA player. Again, I'm not knocking Luke. I agree with those who say he is the best pure center we've had here in many years, that he has improved and that he can continue to do so. But he will not be an NBAer, no how, no way.
I will submit that the folks who say the above stuff about Henry and about Luke are in the minority. I wasn't trying to paint these as majority opinions, so if that is how it came across I apologize.
Most Scoopers know the score pretty well: Henry will collect a lovely paycheck for many years; Luke might, too, but it will be less lovely and will be paid in foreign dollars.
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GU is not that good this year but it is another but weaker test. So far we are 0-2 against good teams this year.. Always hope for the best but realistically, at best NIT.
Very difficult to declare that so early on considering the youth and corresponding potential of this team. If something clicks, this team can rattle off a nice little streak.
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Seems like Wojo would rather coach with platitudes and meaningless yelling than actually trying to come up with a good gameplan.
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Luke has 1.5 years left at MU. If he continues to develop, I am one of those people who believe that he will get a look from the NBA.
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Aside from the unforced TOs, the thing that stood out to me the most was how MU's missed shots seemed to affect their defense, particularly Henry's. The team was clearly frustrated offensively in the second half and things snowballed. MU was flustered and lost confidence while SH gained confidence and the rout was on. Time for this team to mature. I think they will.
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Seems like Wojo would rather coach with platitudes and meaningless yelling than actually trying to come up with a good gameplan.
Don't confuse game planning with what's discussed during timeouts. I really think the game planning is reinforced before and after timeouts and during stoppages when assistants/Wojo call players over to go over assignments, scouting, etc.
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Aside from the unforced TOs, the thing that stood out to me the most was how MU's missed shots seemed to affect their defense, particularly Henry's. The team was clearly frustrated offensively in the second half and things snowballed. MU was flustered and lost confidence while SH gained confidence and the rout was on. Time for this team to mature. I think they will.
I also have noticed that certain players get back better on defense after they have made shots than after they have missed. Henry and Duane leap to mind there.
IMHO, they are also the two players who are most likely to think, "It's my turn to shoot now," if they haven't had a chance to do so in several possessions.
I'd chalk it up to immaturity, but many NBA players also have similar characteristics. They're just "wired" that way.
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Seems like Wojo would rather coach with platitudes and meaningless yelling than actually trying to come up with a good gameplan.
Wojo is a good recruiter, but his gametime coaching still has huge question marks. There is plenty of talent on this team, and they are mostly guys he brought in/or wanted. This is the year that his game coaching can be fairly evaluated. I guess MU already believes he is the man, judging by giving him an extension. Wojo has all he has wanted, so now he needs to produce. Not a very auspicious start against SH!
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Don't confuse game planning with what's discussed during timeouts. I really think the game planning is reinforced before and after timeouts and during stoppages when assistants/Wojo call players over to go over assignments, scouting, etc.
Exactly. When the TV broadcast shows an "inside the huddle," they are only allowed to show the rah-rah stuff. They aren't going to broadcast the x's and o's.
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I think the contract extension came way too early for Wojo. Not sure how this team manages to win a game against Xavier, Providence, Butler and Villanova. Doubt they will win on the road at Georgetown, Seton Hall, or Creighton. Will probably split between St. John's and DePaul. I hope I'm wrong, but this is probably another 8th place to 10th place finish again this year in the Big East.
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I think the contract extension came way too early for Wojo. Not sure how this team manages to win a game against Xavier, Providence, Butler and Villanova. Doubt they will win on the road at Georgetown, Seton Hall, or Creighton. Will probably split between St. John's and DePaul. I hope I'm wrong, but this is probably another 8th place to 10th place finish again this year in the Big East.
I actually think this team is going to play really well in DC. Aside from just playing poorly last night, nothing was falling, can calls were going against us. Wojo will have these guys raring to go and law of averages will come to the fore.
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Way too much being made of the contract extension. Way too much.
If Marquette wants to fire him, they still can. That's a positive. When Wojo walks into a recruit's house, he can assure them he'll be here for 6 years. That's a positive (and one UW can't promise). It indicates a healthy relationship between the coaching staff and management. That's a positive. It helps reinforce Wojo's loyalty. That's a positive.
The ONLY negative is that if Marquette wants to fire him, it will probably cost a little more. This doesn't guarantee he's here 6 more years, this doesn't tie Marquette to him for the length of the contract.
I bet you can count on one hand the number of coaches that annual leave jobs when contracts expire. Most are fired or leave before their contact runs out. The contract is a good move on every level.
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1. Whoever said Luke had an NBA career? And if he doesn't, so what?
2. Not sure why Fisher is getting the brunt of the complaints here. 12 points, 9 rebounds, 6 of 11 shooting.On the other hand- Henry: 3 for 14, Duane: 0 -4 from 3, Haanif and Sandy: o rebounds between them.
Agreed. Cheatham got smoked all game on the defensive end and so did Sandy. Sandy was atrocious on the offensive end as well. I can remember twice where he brought his defender over to the person with the ball and we had a turnover.
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There is a reason guys get back better after a made shot.. because the other team has to inbound the ball.
Some guys are occasionally taking time off on D though.
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Agreed. Cheatham got smoked all game on the defensive end and so did Sandy. Sandy was atrocious on the offensive end as well. I can remember twice where he brought his defender over to the person with the ball and we had a turnover.
Watching Cohen try a mistimed Euro step on that fast break was agonizing.
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We've played 6 "non cupcakes". One is borderline top 25 (Iowa), the other 5 are unranked. We are 3-3 in those games. Our wins were all "coin flips" (by one, two and three points in OT). Our losses (all at home) include two of the worst routs in my 50 year viewing history. We're young and we'll improve, but right now at least 5 Big East teams look to be considerably better than us. We're big but slow to the ball and not particularly athletic. We don't have a point guard (Goose was right, Carter is nowhere near ready to start at this level). If Henry stays I think we're an NCAA team next year but I'm (sadly) coming to Tower's conclusion that this year the NIT is our upside.
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I don't have the kind of memory that lets me instantly recall who said what on Scoop, but there have been a few folks who regularly say silly stuff like, "Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA. He'll be here four years."
Similarly, there have been some folks on here claiming that Luke can be an NBA player. Again, I'm not knocking Luke. I agree with those who say he is the best pure center we've had here in many years, that he has improved and that he can continue to do so. But he will not be an NBAer, no how, no way.
I will submit that the folks who say the above stuff about Henry and about Luke are in the minority. I wasn't trying to paint these as majority opinions, so if that is how it came across I apologize.
There's this thing here called a search gizmo. If you type in "Luke" and or "Fisher" and 'NBA", the only thing that comes up is your post from yesterday.
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There's this thing here called a search gizmo. If you type in "Luke" and or "Fisher" and 'NBA", the only thing that comes up is your post from yesterday.
Is that because you spelled Fisher wrong?
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They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.
I was responding to the quote above form '82.
My point was HE's stat line will have little effect on his draft status. As 82 said, HE did not shoot the ball well last night. Will have zero effect on his draft status.
Fair enough.
I don't think anyone said or thinks NBA scouts would do that. They will look at many of his games for a large sample of work.
My thing was more about stock of players, which can drop or rise. My biggest concern with HE at the pro level is whether he has the athleticism. He can offset that by having a great outside shot, which he doesn't have. We'll see how it goes, but I'm still in the camp of two years.
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I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.
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I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.
Agree. Besides...6'10" with potential >>>> Stats
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I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.
HE reminds me of Brad Miller at Purdue. Except HE as a freshman is doing what Miller did as a junior.
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I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.
All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.
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I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.
The only reason HE stays is because he likes college (for 1 more year). The NBA will draft him if he declares. A guy can hope because we would be awesome next year if he stays.
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There is a reason guys get back better after a made shot.. because the other team has to inbound the ball.
Some guys are occasionally taking time off on D though.
Agreed, which is why we were a better offensive AND defensive team with Davante in the game, even though he was an average to below average individual defender. Davante got buckets. The other team then had to play against a set defense. People made way too big of a deal about Davante's defensive limitations. We were a better overall team with him in the game period.
Which is why on the flip side, for however good a guy like Derrick was on his own man on D, it wore our team defense down to constantly play off of missed shots. Eventually you break and teams start ripping off unanswered runs. There was a bit of that dynamic last night due to all the empty possessions on our own end.
We start canning open shots, the D will follow, and not just because guys don't want to defend if they're having an off night shooting.
/tangent
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Agreed, which is why we were a better offensive AND defensive team with Davante in the game, even though he was an average to below average individual defender. Davante got buckets. The other team then had to play against a set defense. People made way too big of a deal about Davante's defensive limitations. We were a better overall team with him in the game period.
Which is why on the flip side, for however good a guy like Derrick was on his own man on D, it wore our team defense down to constantly play off of missed shots. Eventually you break and teams start ripping off unanswered runs. There was a bit of that dynamic last night due to all the empty possessions on our own end.
We start canning open shots, the D will follow, and not just because guys don't want to defend if they're having an off night shooting.
/tangent
There's definitely a benefit to making shots. I won't dispute that. But especially early on, Davante's defense was a huge liability, and even though he could make shots, you have to remember in his first three years, he never took more than 22.3% of the shots when he was on the floor. So sure, his made shots helped, but the rest of the team took about 80% of the shots. When they missed, Davante's defense hurt.
Conversely, it's hard to blame Derrick too much for missing shots when he had the lowest percentage of shots taken on the team in all four of his years here. I'm not saying his offensive limitations couldn't have had impacts that went beyond just his shooting, but when you take the fewest shots of any guy on the floor, more often than not you won't be the one who missed the shot that prevented the defense from getting set.
Sorry...don't mean to digress this topic, but I can't agree that we were better defensively with Davante in and Derrick out. I understand where you're coming from, and there's benefits to made baskets beyond points, but there are limits to that, especially when you consider usage rates.
Regardless...we need to make shots. Those threes last night killed us, not only because we missed almost all of them, but because Seton Hall got 90% of the rebounds on our misses. The only offensive board we got on a three was Wally's easy putback when Henry came up horribly short. That's another reason I hate seeing Henry take threes. Not only is it not a strength of his game, but it takes one of our best chances at getting the offensive rebound away from the hoop. I hate of the idea of Wojo stifling his game, but unless it's a wide-open look in the flow of the offense, he shouldn't be taking threes. And even then, there's probably a better option, unless it's in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.
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I like Wojo, so far, but I think part of this is on him for not adjusting. The on-the-street definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The repeated fruitless charges to the net where like the charge of the light brigade. Sad
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When i see teams like seton hall I really start to miss that 6'9 300 pound wrecking ball we had.
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All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.
Death and taxes - you never tire of insulting our players from our most successful era since Al.
0n another topic - it's unseemly and classless to have a signature that's a personal attack on another poster. Take it down.
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All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.
You and I have had many agreements and disagreements (probably more of the latter) but I've always thought you were a pretty bright guy.
If you really think that if Henry went pro after this season and that he'd have to cross his fingers and pray and recite a cliche like "all it takes is one" ... well ... I'm not so sure about your brightness.
If you are comparing Ellenson's draft prospects to those of Blue, whom everybody not named Blue knew were lousy ... well ... your intelligence comes into question again.
Because I don't think you're stupid, I'll just chalk it up as a typically misguided, typically douchebaggy way to take yet another cheap shot at the guy who carried Marquette to the Elite Eight.
In which case you're merely guilty of capital douchebaggery.
There ... does that cover all the possibilities?
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A lot of folks here thought Kevin Willard should or would be fired last year (Scoopers historically not good at predicting when coaches get fired I might add).
Folks still thinking this way?
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A lot of folks here thought Kevin Willard should or would be fired last year (Scoopers historically not good at predicting when coaches get fired I might add).
Folks still thinking this way?
Yup. Whitehead had offers from UL, UK, SU, UConn. They all pulled their offers. Remind me: why did Whitehead end up at SHU?
Besides, willards body of work to date is not very impressive.
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You and I have had many agreements and disagreements (probably more of the latter) but I've always thought you were a pretty bright guy.
If you really think that if Henry went pro after this season and that he'd have to cross his fingers and pray and recite a cliche like "all it takes is one" ... well ... I'm not so sure about your brightness.
If you are comparing Ellenson's draft prospects to those of Blue, whom everybody not named Blue knew were lousy ... well ... your intelligence comes into question again.
Because I don't think you're stupid, I'll just chalk it up as a typically misguided, typically douchebaggy way to take yet another cheap shot at the guy who carried Marquette to the Elite Eight.
In which case you're merely guilty of capital douchebaggery.
There ... does that cover all the possibilities?
Let me lay it out clearly as apparently I didn't.
All it takes is one is in reference to all it takes is one NBA team to draft someone and suddenly they are a lottery pick or a 1st rounder. It could mean 30 other teams have no desire to do so, but all it takes is one. Now, that being said, in my judgment he isn't going in the top 8, which I think was your comment or someone's (I'd have to look it up), but all it takes is one team to do it and it is so. I have a hard time seeing him as top 14, which I believe is the cut off for a lottery pick. But again, all it takes is one. Whether he comes out this year or not, I don't know. Many reasons to do so, especially if you are going to get guaranteed money. Now, if another year would mean improving his outside game considerably, making him more versatile, improving his athleticism and quickness....he might consider doing so. We'll all find out.
Some players were told that "one is all it takes" (which is true), but they actually believed one would do it...and they leave early despite just about anyone with a brain saying don't....Vander Blue. Just stating the facts. If someone wants to leave early and it makes sense, by all means do it and I support it. When someone is a fool and leaves early, well you're not going to get any attaboys from me. Douchbaggery...fine by me....still makes it 100% accurate that he was an idiot for leaving early.
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Yup. Whitehead had offers from UL, UK, SU, UConn. They all pulled their offers. Remind me: why did Whitehead end up at SHU?
Besides, willards body of work to date is not very impressive.
Whitehead is a nice player, but they have several really nice players on their team. If I recall, Whitehead's coach is on the staff, but I don't recall if that was him or another recruit.
Appreciate the response.
I'll stick to my beliefs that Scoopers firing predictions are down right awful.
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Whitehead is a nice player, but they have several really nice players on their team. If I recall, Whitehead's coach is on the staff, but I don't recall if that was him or another recruit.
Appreciate the response.
I'll stick to my beliefs that Scoopers firing predictions are down right awful.
Yes,Willard hired Whitehead's coach.
http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/23734303/seton-hall-did-a-package-deal-to-get-isaiah-whitehead-and-its-smart
Willard went 18-36 through his first 3 BE seasons. At a better program with loftier expectations he understandably could have been fired. A win on the road this year against MU doesnt change much about Willard as a coach, IMO.
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There's definitely a benefit to making shots. I won't dispute that. But especially early on, Davante's defense was a huge liability, and even though he could make shots, you have to remember in his first three years, he never took more than 22.3% of the shots when he was on the floor. So sure, his made shots helped, but the rest of the team took about 80% of the shots. When they missed, Davante's defense hurt.
Conversely, it's hard to blame Derrick too much for missing shots when he had the lowest percentage of shots taken on the team in all four of his years here. I'm not saying his offensive limitations couldn't have had impacts that went beyond just his shooting, but when you take the fewest shots of any guy on the floor, more often than not you won't be the one who missed the shot that prevented the defense from getting set.
Sorry...don't mean to digress this topic, but I can't agree that we were better defensively with Davante in and Derrick out. I understand where you're coming from, and there's benefits to made baskets beyond points, but there are limits to that, especially when you consider usage rates.
Regardless...we need to make shots. Those threes last night killed us, not only because we missed almost all of them, but because Seton Hall got 90% of the rebounds on our misses. The only offensive board we got on a three was Wally's easy putback when Henry came up horribly short. That's another reason I hate seeing Henry take threes. Not only is it not a strength of his game, but it takes one of our best chances at getting the offensive rebound away from the hoop. I hate of the idea of Wojo stifling his game, but unless it's a wide-open look in the flow of the offense, he shouldn't be taking threes. And even then, there's probably a better option, unless it's in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.
1.) I was referring to Davante as an upperclassman, not a frosh.
2.) Derrick'so low usage rate was a big part of the problem offensively, so usage rate differential is a moot point. Basketball is not baseball, where a hitter is in more of a vacuum vs. the rest of his teammates offensively.
3.) I wasn't comparing the two, nor did I say we were better on defense with Davante in while Derrick was out. I meant if you swapped Davante for a guy that was better on D but worse on O, we would have been worse on defense and vice versa with Derrick. Sorry for any confusion.
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1.) I was referring to Davante as an upperclassman, not a frosh.
2.) Derrick'so low usage rate was a big part of the problem offensively, so usage rate differential is a moot point. Basketball is not baseball, where a hitter is in more of a vacuum vs. the rest of his teammates offensively.
3.) I wasn't comparing the two, nor did I say we were better on defense with Davante in while Derrick was out. I meant if you swapped Davante for a guy that was better on D but worse on O, we would have been worse on defense and vice versa with Derrick. Sorry for any confusion.
Confusion from my end as well...I understood your comparisons but poorly worded the Davante/Derrick thing, which probably should have had a semicolon in there.
1) As a senior, Otule had a higher FG% and eFG% than Gardner and was a much better defender. Gardner's usage rate may have made us a better overall team, but it's not like Otule was missing all the time and allowing breakouts because of it. We were unquestionably a better defensive team with Otule in the lineup.
2) The problem was Derrick had no competition. As a junior, the only other person to take his minutes was Dawson, who was better from the line and three, but had a lower eFG% and really wasn't much more of an offensive threat. As a senior, we had no like-for-like player to take his minutes. Only Carlino, and they both played. The biggest problem was Buzz's inability to recruit any other point guards.
3) Gotcha...confusion on both ends ;) All things being equal, I agree that you're better off defending after a made basket. I just don't think those two specific examples work well when you consider the rest of the roster. My guess is this is one where we'll have to agree to disagree ;D
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Let me lay it out clearly as apparently I didn't.
All it takes is one is in reference to all it takes is one NBA team to draft someone and suddenly they are a lottery pick or a 1st rounder. It could mean 30 other teams have no desire to do so, but all it takes is one. Now, that being said, in my judgment he isn't going in the top 8, which I think was your comment or someone's (I'd have to look it up), but all it takes is one team to do it and it is so. I have a hard time seeing him as top 14, which I believe is the cut off for a lottery pick. But again, all it takes is one. Whether he comes out this year or not, I don't know. Many reasons to do so, especially if you are going to get guaranteed money. Now, if another year would mean improving his outside game considerably, making him more versatile, improving his athleticism and quickness....he might consider doing so. We'll all find out.
Some players were told that "one is all it takes" (which is true), but they actually believed one would do it...and they leave early despite just about anyone with a brain saying don't....Vander Blue. Just stating the facts. If someone wants to leave early and it makes sense, by all means do it and I support it. When someone is a fool and leaves early, well you're not going to get any attaboys from me. Douchbaggery...fine by me....still makes it 100% accurate that he was an idiot for leaving early.
You compared Ellenson to Blue. Were there ever 25 scouts out to see Blue? Did several draft prognosticators ever predict Blue would be a top-10 pick? Blue was told to stay in school because he wouldn't be drafted; he apparently applied the "all it takes is one" mantra. Henry doesn't need that mantra on potential alone.
I know, I know ... you'll say you never really compared Henry to Vander. Whatevs. You just have "a way about you," Chicos. You love to push that envelope and invite arguments rather than discussions.
As for Henry ... like you, I have a gut feeling he stays for 2 years, although I will admit that my feeling was stronger a month ago. He would have to like the MU experience and like playing with his brother an awful lot to pass up the big guarantee.
BTW, I never said he was going top 8. I have no idea where he's going, though the draft prognosticators who have a pretty good record in these things believe he'll be a lottery pick, and they'd know more than I would.
They wouldn't know more than you, of course. I mean, who does? Sports, politics, investing, whatever ... who knows more than Chicos?
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I said top 8--which I thought was lottery. I think that is top 14. My mistake. It shows how little I follow the NBA and its draft.
This thread shift by Chicos is textbook.
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I said top 8--which I thought was lottery. I think that is top 14. My mistake. It shows how little I follow the NBA and its draft.
This thread shift by Chicos is textbook.
The thread took many shifts, long before my comments.
Happy New Year
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Only one person thought that Vander Blue should make its way into the thread. One person.
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You compared Ellenson to Blue. Were there ever 25 scouts out to see Blue? Did several draft prognosticators ever predict Blue would be a top-10 pick? Blue was told to stay in school because he wouldn't be drafted; he apparently applied the "all it takes is one" mantra. Henry doesn't need that mantra on potential alone.
I know, I know ... you'll say you never really compared Henry to Vander. Whatevs. You just have "a way about you," Chicos. You love to push that envelope and invite arguments rather than discussions.
As for Henry ... like you, I have a gut feeling he stays for 2 years, although I will admit that my feeling was stronger a month ago. He would have to like the MU experience and like playing with his brother an awful lot to pass up the big guarantee.
BTW, I never said he was going top 8. I have no idea where he's going, though the draft prognosticators who have a pretty good record in these things believe he'll be a lottery pick, and they'd know more than I would.
They wouldn't know more than you, of course. I mean, who does? Sports, politics, investing, whatever ... who knows more than Chicos?
Whatevs is right....never compared HE to Vander. My point was all it takes is one, which is correct. I also said I wasn't sure if it was you who said top 8, correct?
Yes, Vander played in games with that many scouts. Were they all there to see him? Nope, but he did play in those games.
Lots of people know a lot more than I do....but I seemed to be doing ok for myself.
Happy New Year....good to see you're finishing up strong....you have a way about you.
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Only one person thought that Vander Blue should make its way into the thread. One person.
Actually Shark did, one of the first 6 posters in this thread.
It took less than 20 posts for this thread to "turn" into JUCO recruiting. It took less then 30 posts for it to be about Derrick Wilson. It took less than 50 posts for it to become Wojo is a Duke guy and from the ACC, which = soft.
Etc, etc, etc
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If Luke develops a face up game, he will make it in the Pros. For some reason, he is all back to the basket at MU, unlike I4 and HS.
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Etc, etc, etc
Check your PMs
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Check your PMs
Already responded a few minutes ago...you said you turned them off, not the case?
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Already responded a few minutes ago...you said you turned them off, not the case?
I turned signatures off in my profile, not for the site. The request stands.
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Death and taxes - you never tire of insulting our players from our most successful era since Al.
0n another topic - it's unseemly and classless to have a signature that's a personal attack on another poster. Take it down.
Lenny, thanks.
But, an insult from Chicos is meaningless. I think it is pretty easy to tell when he is off of his meds (and I'm not saying that as a joke or an insult). He gets a mite twitchy.
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Whatevs is right....never compared HE to Vander. My point was all it takes is one, which is correct. I also said I wasn't sure if it was you who said top 8, correct?
Yes, Vander played in games with that many scouts. Were they all there to see him? Nope, but he did play in those games.
Lots of people know a lot more than I do....but I seemed to be doing ok for myself.
Happy New Year....good to see you're finishing up strong....you have a way about you.
I left the politics board primarily to get away from arguing with you about silly crapola.
I guess I'm Michael Corleone and you're the Mafia: Just when I thought I was out, he pulls me back in.
Happy New Year back at, Chicos.
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Seton Hall fans just weighed in with thoughts, they think Vander Blue was an idiot for leaving after his junior year.
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Right--cuz one more year he would have jumped up to #1 overall.
VB is who he is/was. For some reason his decision to leave early really has gotten to you and you have never been able to let it go.
Get over it--he left after his junior year and was not drafted. He's working his ass off to get back to the league. Let it go.
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Wake Up Call II.
Smaller team Pushing us around under both baskets and us having trouble stopping drives.
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Seton Hall fans just weighed in with thoughts, they think Vander Blue was an idiot for leaving after his junior year.
And yet he's played more in the NBA than Marquette's all time leading scorer, Jerel McNeal, whom you have routinely celebrated as a NBA player. Blue collected NBA paychecks for each of his first two seasons out of school. Maybe not full seasons, but still, NBA paychecks. Isn't that why he declared? Seems like he succeeded in his goal.