Red Sox trade for Chris sale

[Celtic Truth]

Rod Sox just traded 4 prospects, headlined by Yoan Moncada, for Sale. Moncada is a stud- fast, big arm, hits for power. However he is still young and a couple of years away from reaching his potential. He was called up for a few games at the end of last year but struggled. He needs work on defense and he doesn't have a true position, but he has a great arm. He has shown good power and speed in the minors but he struggled in the MLB, especially with curveballs. I don't know too much about the 2nd prospect Michael Kopech but I hear he's good. The other prospects have yet to be named.

As a Red Sox fan I love the trade because we are in win now mode and sale is a great bargain financially over the next 3 years at only about $10mil/yr.

The Red Sox also traded Travis Shaw to the Brewers for Tyler Thornburg earlier today. I like this move too but I was a big shaw fan. Brewers fans should like him for his power potential. He started off last season hot but then struggled. He still ended up with 16 HRs and 71 RBIs even tho he only played about 100 games. I could see him being a 30 HR a year guy if all goes well.

Thoughts from White Sox and Brewers fans?

[buckchuckler]

whatever... just whatever...

[MerrittsMustache]

The other 2 prospects are believed to be OF Luis Basabe and RHP Victor Diaz.

Also...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52504.50

[Pakuni]

The White Sox hate their fans.  unnatural carnal knowledge this crap.

Sox haven't won with Sale and weren't going to win in the foreseeable future with Sale.
They need to burn things down and start over with young players like Moncada and Kopech (and Rodon, Collins, Anderson, Hansen, Fullmer, Burdi, etc.). Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but trying something different is way better than the status quo.
If the Sox truly hated their fans, they'd keep throwing high-priced, 78-win teams out there.

[buckchuckler]

Sox haven't won with Sale and weren't going to win in the foreseeable future with Sale.
They need to burn things down and start over with young players like Moncada and Kopech (and Rodon, Collins, Anderson, Hansen, Fullmer, Burdi, etc.). Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but trying something different is way better than the status quo.
If the Sox truly hated their fans, they'd keep throwing high-priced, 78-win teams out there.

The way they have managed the team that led to this is just terrible.  A complete embarrassment.  To have the core they have had, and to not be able to put supplementary players around them is a disaster.   

With that being said, I think they probably did pretty well on this trade.  Moncada is obviously as good a prospect as you can get.  Kopech is still a ways off, but has an insane ceiling.  The other guys are both lottery ticket types.  But Moncada gives Sox fans something to be excited about, and Kopech adds to a pretty solid stable of arms.

Boy, does losing Sale suck though.

[MerrittsMustache]

The way they have managed the team that led to this is just terrible.  A complete embarrassment.  To have the core they have had, and to not be able to put supplementary players around them is a disaster.

What players specifically would you consider to be their core?

[Pakuni]

The way they have managed the team that led to this is just terrible.  A complete embarrassment.  To have the core they have had, and to not be able to put supplementary players around them is a disaster.

Nobody is arguing that the team has been well run in recent years.
But this trade today was 100 percent the right thing to do and perhaps a long overdue glimmer of competence from the front office (outside their drafting, which actually has been good the past few years).

I also wonder about the "core" of which you speak. There's Sale, Quintana, Abreu and arguably Eaton. Not much else there.

[buckchuckler]

What players specifically would you consider to be their core?

Well, they had Sale, Q and Rodon in the rotation, as good a top 3 as just about anyone.

In the lineup they have an above average 1B, SS, 3B, and RF.  With a decent hitter in LF (if poor defensively).  Their inability to acquire any type of catcher since AJ is a complete disaster. 


It is just stupid they always tried to half ass adding to the team they led them to need a complete rebuild. 

Now their core will be the Charlotte Knights and Tim Anderson. 

[brandx]

I also wonder about the "core" of which you speak. There's Sale, Quintana, Abreu and arguably Eaton. Not much else there.

Great point. If that is all a team has for its core, it is time to tear it down completely and rebuild.

Now if they can get a deal with the Dodgers (loaded with top prospects) for Frazier, it could be a great off-season.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Great point. If that is all a team has for its core, it is time to tear it down completely and rebuild.

Now if they can get a deal with the Dodgers (loaded with top prospects) for Frazier, it could be a great off-season.

As I posted in the other thread, they should unload anyone they get a suitable offer for aside from Rodon and Anderson at this point. 

I'm not sure they'll get an elite prospect from LA for Frazier but at least a good one. 

Easy for me to say as a Cubs fan but it seems like the right way to go.  It will just be very painful for a while.  But to me that's better than being in baseball purgatory. 

[buckchuckler]

Nobody is arguing that the team has been well run in recent years.
But this trade today was 100 percent the right thing to do and perhaps a long overdue glimmer of competence from the front office (outside their drafting, which actually has been good the past few years).

I also wonder about the "core" of which you speak. There's Sale, Quintana, Abreu and arguably Eaton. Not much else there.

Arguably Eaton? That is ridiculous.  I'm not the biggest WAR guy around, but it works as a catch all and Eaton was a 6.2 WAR player last year.  And a 4 WAR player the prior year.  To not include him as a core player is ridiculous. 

For example, Boston had only Mookie Betts better than that.  The Cubs had only Bryant.  Baltimore had only Machado.  Cleveland had no one.  But yeah, I guess he is debatable as a core piece because, well, I don't know.  Maybe he is too short.  That must be it. 

[buckchuckler]

Great point. If that is all a team has for its core, it is time to tear it down completely and rebuild.

Now if they can get a deal with the Dodgers (loaded with top prospects) for Frazier, it could be a great off-season.

I would be surprised if Frazier isn't traded.  Same for Melky, Gonzalez, Robertson.  I would probably bet that Abreu will be traded as well.  And I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Q, Jones or Eaton traded.  If Lawrie can stay healthy (huge if)he will probably be traded by the deadline. 

If you are gonna trade the best pitcher to wear the Sox uniform since Ed Walsh, no sense not trading everyone else too.

[Pakuni]

Arguably Eaton? That is ridiculous.  I'm not the biggest WAR guy around, but it works as a catch all and Eaton was a 6.2 WAR player last year.  And a 4 WAR player the prior year.  To not include him as a core player is ridiculous. 

For example, Boston had only Mookie Betts better than that.  The Cubs had only Bryant.  Baltimore had only Machado.  Cleveland had no one.  But yeah, I guess he is debatable as a core piece because, well, I don't know.  Maybe he is too short.  That must be it.

Going off on the word "arguably."
Fine. The Sox had four "core" players to build around. Not the makings of a contender.
You're stlll 100 percent wrong about the trade.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

White Sox could have gotten more

[Vander Blue Man Group]

White Sox could have gotten more

From? 

[brandx]

Arguably Eaton? That is ridiculous.  I'm not the biggest WAR guy around, but it works as a catch all and Eaton was a 6.2 WAR player last year.  And a 4 WAR player the prior year.  To not include him as a core player is ridiculous. 

For example, Boston had only Mookie Betts better than that.  The Cubs had only Bryant.  Baltimore had only Machado.  Cleveland had no one.  But yeah, I guess he is debatable as a core piece because, well, I don't know.  Maybe he is too short.  That must be it.

Like you, I am not the biggest WAR guy either. Can be extremely misleading about the quality of a player. Eaton is a perfect example.

[buckchuckler]

Going off on the word "arguably."
Fine. The Sox had four "core" players to build around. Not the makings of a contender.
You're stlll 100 percent wrong about the trade.

100% wrong.  Wow.  Well ok, I thought it was an opinion, not math.  Secondly what have I said that was wrong, besides apparently all of it.  So, here are the things with which you disagree

Please show me how this is 100% wrong.  That way I can maybe learn to be more like you.

With that being said, I think they probably did pretty well on this trade.  Moncada is obviously as good a prospect as you can get.  Kopech is still a ways off, but has an insane ceiling.  The other guys are both lottery ticket types.  But Moncada gives Sox fans something to be excited about, and Kopech adds to a pretty solid stable of arms.

What is wrong there?

This maybe:
The way they have managed the team that led to this is just terrible.  A complete embarrassment.  To have the core they have had, and to not be able to put supplementary players around them is a disaster

But I would say they had the stars.  They had the most difficult pieces for a team to acquire.  They had great pitching.  They had power bats (Abreu/Frazier), they had good other good hitters (Eaton/Melky as well as Anderson).  They couldn't even put average guys in CF and C.  That is an embarrassment. 

So I am 100% wrong.  You are elite.  You are all knowing.  Sorry for polluting a thread in which you, almighty Pakuni participated.  I cower before your knowledge. 

[Pakuni]

Like you, I am not the biggest WAR guy either. Can be extremely misleading about the quality of a player. Eaton is a perfect example.

Eaton is a very good player. Probably underrated, even.
But he's not a guy you build around.

[buckchuckler]

I would also add, do you think the organization is better positioned right now than they were at 8:00 this morning? 

Are Moncada and Kopech going to add more to the organizations ability to win than Chris Sale?  Maybe they will.  Maybe the other two will contribute.  But, then, they could have gotten the other two for much less.  It basically comes down to Kopech and Moncada vs. Sale.

I don't think that is a clear win.  It sure could be.  Moncada has all the skills to truly be a great player.  An elite player.  But, then, they had a truly great, elite player already in Chris Sale. 

I think Moncada needs to be a great player and Kopech needs to be a 3 type starter at least for the Sox to win this trade.  Unless Moncada cashes in all his potential and ends up as a Mike Trout clone.   

[Pakuni]

100% wrong.  Wow.  Well ok, I thought it was an opinion, not math.  Secondly what have I said that was wrong, besides apparently all of it.  So, here are the things with which you disagree

Please show me how this is 100% wrong.  That way I can maybe learn to be more like you.

You should be so lucky.
You're wrong in suggesting that this trade is evidence the Sox organization hates its fans. 

You are elite.  You are all knowing.  Sorry for polluting a thread in which you, almighty Pakuni participated.  I cower before your knowledge.

You're making me blush.

[Pakuni]

I would also add, do you think the organization is better positioned right now than they were at 8:00 this morning?   

Yes.

Are Moncada and Kopech going to add more to the organizations ability to win than Chris Sale?  Maybe they will.  Maybe the other two will contribute.  But, then, they could have gotten the other two for much less.  It basically comes down to Kopech and Moncada vs. Sale.

In 2017 and 2018? No. Moncada and Kopech will not win more games for the White Sox than Sale would have.
In 2019 and beyond? Probably. If Moncada is the Cano clone he's billed as and Kopech is a top-of-the rotation starter, the Sox should be thrilled with this trade.
Do you think the Sox were going to give a $250-300 million, long-term deal to a 31-year-old starter with a funky delivery after his current contract is up?

The players the Sox got in return may or may not pan out. No guarantee. But this team needs a major rebuild, and doing that required them to make a move like this.

[buckchuckler]

Hmm, well.  I said the Sox hate their fans yes.  I also changed it almost immediately.  I also never said it was because of this trade.  Then somehow you quoted it about 15 minutes after I changed it.  Which is weird, and a little creepy honestly.  There is a reason I quickly changed it.  I wrote it in haste, and didn't really mean it.  I explained more of what I meant with the fact that it is ridiculous that a team with one of 2 or 3 best LHP in baseball, with 3 years of control at an amazing rate had to trade him because the rest of the organization is in shambles. 

Don't think I was wrong on anything about the trade though, you didn't seem to be able to find anything either.  Maybe you're not as great as I thought.  Hmm. 

[buckchuckler]

In 2019 and beyond? Probably. If Moncada is the Cano clone he's billed as and Kopech is a top-of-the rotation starter, the Sox should be thrilled with this trade.

The players the Sox got in return may or may not pan out. No guarantee. But this team needs a major rebuild, and doing that required them to make a move like this.

Those are completely giant "ifs".  Especially on Kopech.  He isn't like a finished product guy.  He is a A ball pitcher. 

I am sure teams would be excited if they traded for Alec Hansen from the Sox, but it would be foolish to pencil a guy that hasn't faced high level minor leaguers in as a top of the rotation starter.  Especially a guy that has walked about 5/9 with out facing advanced minor leaguers.  No replacement for velocity, but I Kopech is far from being a sure thing.

And just so you know, I don't necessarily think this is the wrong course of action.  I haven't said anywhere that it was.  I am irritated that it has gotten to this point. 

I certainly wouldn't say yes to that question.  I wouldn't say no either, but to me it is a clear maybe.  It is banking on high ceiling guys hitting those ceilings. 

I'm glad they have Moncada.  He is an exciting prospect that has the potential to be one of the best players in the game.  That is all you can hope for I guess.  He gives them the narrowest window for missing on this trade of anyone they could have acquired. 

[buckchuckler]

http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/12/7/13866922/chris-sale-trade-start-of-painful-admission-transition

I think this article does a decent job of capturing my feelings on the trade.

[mueron]

Sox fan checking in. I think trading sale/quintana/frazier/abreu/cabrera/robertson is absolutely what the sox need to do. Take whatever you can get, be bad and draft high for a few years. As far as this trade in particular, I think it was a fair trade both ways. Problem is in this market the sox should have fleeced somebody. I think they needed to get another top 5 organizational prospect from the bosox.

[GGGG]

http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/12/7/13866922/chris-sale-trade-start-of-painful-admission-transition

I think this article does a decent job of capturing my feelings on the trade.

So is what you are saying that you are upset because the trade signifies the very failings of the organization and that the major players in the organization are still those who are tasked with fixing it?

If this were any other team but the White Sox, Williams and Hahn would have been out on the streets too.  That is what would frustrate me the most, and what frustrated me rooting for the Selig-era Brewers and the Kohl-era Bucks.  Lack of accountability.

[🏀]

Sox fan checking in. I think trading sale/quintana/frazier/abreu/cabrera/robertson is absolutely what the sox need to do. Take whatever you can get, be bad and draft high for a few years. As far as this trade in particular, I think it was a fair trade both ways. Problem is in this market the sox should have fleeced somebody. I think they needed to get another top 5 organizational prospect from the bosox.

More? They got 3 of their top 8.

Did you see the Nats offer?

[MerrittsMustache]

Winning the World Series in 2005 was obviously a tremendous accomplishment but that team was basically pieced together just like Kenny's other teams and happened to get scorching hot late in the season. Including the postseason, they went 19-3 over their last 22 games. The offense was very average and while the pitching staff led the AL in ERA, it had the largest FIP differential in the league. That team also finished 8 games better than their Pythagorean W-L. Dustin Hermanson had 34 saves and a 2.04 ERA and played only 6 more MLB games in his career. Cliff Politte had a 2.00 ERA and a sub-1.0 WHIP. He was out of baseball after 2006. Neal Cotts had by far his best season until 2013. Bobby Jenks was a waiver claim who closed out the WS. Everything just fell together perfectly for that one season, but you could tell at the time that it wasn't sus t a inable.

Unfortunately, Kenny never really accepted the fact that that team was flawed and that his team-building strategy wasn't going to work for sustained, consistent winning so he kept doing what worked in 2005.

Look at the Sox win totals for the 10 season after the WS:
90, 72, 89, 79, 88, 79, 85, 63, 73, 76

They've been all over the board. Kenny's teams are seemingly built with little margin for error. They can't afford to have any of their main guys have a down year or they're done. When the cast-offs have good years, they win 85-90 games. When they don't, they lose 85-90 games. Regardless, they generally don't make the playoffs (1 appearance since '05).

[Pakuni]

Winning the World Series in 2005 was obviously a tremendous accomplishment but that team was basically pieced together just like Kenny's other teams and happened to get scorching hot late in the season. Including the postseason, they went 19-3 over their last 22 games.

That team went wire-to-wire, leading the division from Opening Day and never spending one day out of first place. They were up 10.5 games by the end of June, 14.5 at the end of July. That was ahead of a Cleveland team that won 93 games that season.
For comparison's sake, the Cubs this year were up 11 at the end of June, and up 7.5 at the end of July.
Not sure whether it was your intent to dismiss that team as one that just got hot at the right time, but they were the best team in baseball all season.

I don't disagree with much else you say, but really, what's the point of pointing out that some guys played about their average during a championship season? Isn't that always the case with every team in every sport? Isn't that pretty much necessary to have a championship season?

[MU82]

That team went wire-to-wire, leading the division from Opening Day and never spending one day out of first place. They were up 10.5 games by the end of June, 14.5 at the end of July. That was ahead of a Cleveland team that won 93 games that season.
For comparison's sake, the Cubs this year were up 11 at the end of June, and up 7.5 at the end of July.
Not sure whether it was your intent to dismiss that team as one that just got hot at the right time, but they were the best team in baseball all season.

I don't disagree with much else you say, but really, what's the point of pointing out that some guys played about their average during a championship season? Isn't that always the case with every team in every sport? Isn't that pretty much necessary to have a championship season?

Going into the season, the Sox were not expected to be legit contenders. But they got off to a great start and everything you say is right about them building a huge division lead and never trailing.

They did have a major slump toward the end of the season, however, and Cleveland pulled within a game or two. The Sox looked like they were gasping for air. But then they held off the Scalping Savages, won their last several regular-season games and surprised most by sweeping the defending champion Red Sox in the ALDS. And the rest is history.

So, you are right about the Sox going wire-to-wire and building a huge lead. And Merritts also is right about the Sox getting scorching hot late in the season.

Ozzie's decision to let his starters throw one CG after another in the ALCS still ranks as one of the gutsiest moves made by a manager in recent years. I have little doubt that La Russa and Maddon are far better managers than Ozzie ever dreamt of being, but I also have little doubt that each would have used a bunch of relievers in all of those games. Maybe for better, maybe not.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

That was such an interesting pitching staff. Mark Buehrle was obviously a stud, no real surprises there. But their other three starters Garland, Garcia and Contreras all had pretty unexpectedly good years and each one threw over 200 innings.