MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: ToddRosiakSays on April 19, 2011, 02:30:04 PM
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Blue's attorney wants case to go to trial
The attorney for Marquette University basketball player Vander Blue, accused of hitting a Marquette student outside a campus area restaurant, said Tuesday that Blue had turned down an offer to reduce a municipal citation from assault and battery, to disorderly conduct.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/120207189.html
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That's an interesting twist. Could have got off with a disorderly, and wants a trial?
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That's an interesting twist. Could have got off with a disorderly, and wants a trial?
Boyle may be betting that the complainant (perhaps an out-of-state student?) isn't going to want to come back to Milwaukee in June to testify that he got clocked by Vander Blue, face a cross-examination from one of the city's best defense lawyers and have to deal with the media and peer scrutiny that's sure to come.
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Boyle may be betting that the complainant (perhaps an out-of-state student?) isn't going to want to come back to Milwaukee in June to testify that he got clocked by Vander Blue, face a cross-examination from one of the city's best defense lawyers and have to deal with the media and peer scrutiny that's sure to come.
Or Vander believes he is innocent....I don't know just throwing it out there.
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Maybe he knows that the supposed victim's idea of facts are full of sh*t.
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Boyle may be betting that the complainant (perhaps an out-of-state student?) isn't going to want to come back to Milwaukee in June to testify that he got clocked by Vander Blue, face a cross-examination from one of the city's best defense lawyers and have to deal with the media and peer scrutiny that's sure to come.
Sounds speculation-heavy to me.
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Sounds speculation-heavy to me.
what's that...your thoughts on everything about Vander Blue? Or this particular case?
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Sounds speculation-heavy to me.
Actually, it's pretty sound trial strategy.
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Irony defined is immaeagle saying something sounds speculation heavy. How about the notion that Vander's attorney thinks that when everybody testifies under oath, Vander's name gets cleared?
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Sounds speculation-heavy to me.
Please, please tell me that this was a joke and should have been in teal. If so, even though I may disagree with what you've said in the other thread, I have huge respect for your sense of humor. If not, then simply don't know what to say after your admittedly "speculation-heavy" posts in the other thread. After all, it's Pakuni's favorite team...he has to have an opinion.
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Sounds speculation-heavy to me.
Was it the phrase "may be betting" that gave it away?
But, yeah, speculating on legal strategy in a case that's been charged is the exact same thing as implying that someone is a sex offender.
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Please, please tell me that this was a joke and should have been in teal. If so, even though I may disagree with what you've said in the other thread, I have huge respect for your sense of humor. If not, then I'm simply at a loss for words after your admittedly "speculation-heavy" posts in the other thread.
I do not and will not subscribe to writing sarcasm in teal. It is the equivalent of winking while telling a joke.
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I do not and will not subscribe to writing sarcasm in teal. It is the equivalent of winking while telling a joke.
And I agree with that approach totally. I don't use teal or the smiley things. Then I'll assume it was a joke and say, "well played."
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I do not and will not subscribe to writing sarcasm in teal. It is the equivalent of winking while telling a joke.
Does this mean that all your posts on the other thread were meant to be sarcastic?
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Does this mean that all your posts on the other thread were meant to be sarcastic?
Regrettabely, it does not
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Blue's attorney wants case to go to trial
The attorney for Marquette University basketball player Vander Blue, accused of punching a man outside a campus area restaurant last October, said Tuesday that he will seek a trial for his client after being cited for assault and battery.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/120207189.html
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He wants to go to trial because he thinks he can win.
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Qdoba is in the old Dairy Queen spot correct(2002 grad)? I was pretty sure there were cameras near that intersection. Is that not correct?
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Couple friends of mine got kidnapped right in front of that place, when it was George Webb's. Broad daylight during the summer. Fun stuff.
Anyway, incredibly enough DPS said that they didn't have enough cameras in that area to get a shot of the guy's face, or even body really. (He got into her vehicle, put a gun to her head and told her to start driving.)
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My speculation is that Blue has no choice, because Buzz told him is gone if he is guilty.
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Couple friends of mine got kidnapped right in front of that place, when it was George Webb's. Broad daylight during the summer. Fun stuff.
Anyway, incredibly enough DPS said that they didn't have enough cameras in that area to get a shot of the guy's face, or even body really. (He got into her vehicle, put a gun to her head and told her to start driving.)
Careful - - some posters may assume that the kidnapper was a basketball player!
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In case you hadn't seen, the blog has been updated with this:
A university spokeswoman said in an email that Blue had been disciplined both under the student conduct code and by the basketball program. "Further disciplinary action by the basketball program is possible pending the results of the court proceeding," spokeswoman Brigid O'Brien Miller.
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Oftentimes when a player embarrasses a team, a coach responds by punishing his teammates.
With this in mind, I believe we now have an explanation for Blue's late/post season minutes.
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Boyle may be betting that the complainant (perhaps an out-of-state student?) isn't going to want to come back to Milwaukee in June to testify that he got clocked by Vander Blue, face a cross-examination from one of the city's best defense lawyers and have to deal with the media and peer scrutiny that's sure to come.
Sounds right to me.
Boyle is a mean son-of-a-bitch. Certainly wouldn't want him after my kid even if this is a college hijinks trial.
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If its true that Blue came over to their table and basically instigated this.... not good.
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If its true that Blue came over to their table and basically instigated this.... not good.
And by instigate, you mean spoke with them?
A provocative act, indeed.
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For me, the lynchpin here is Cottingham. He, too, is an attorney. I can't believe Boyle is representing Blue by coincidence or that he is choosing to challenge the ticket without Cottingham's either implicit or explicit approval, which to me means that Cottingham was presented with the information and made the judgement that this should be drop-kicked out of existence to remove a potential shadow/smear. I just can't come up with a scenario where he did not sign off on this.
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They gona call DJO up to the stand?
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TMJ4 just was live outside Qdoba.
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Slow news night?
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Hadn't seen this posted yet so apologies to mods if it's already posted, but here is article from wisn including quotes from Boyle http://www.wisn.com/r/27602300/detail.html
"The young man called Mr. Vander Blue, Vander Orange, and he invited the guy to step outside, and the guy said OK, and they both went outside, a little fisticuffs. I think one punch took place and that was it. That, in my opinion is not battery, because in order to have battery, you have to have it without the consent of, and it seems to me the invitation to step outside, which was taken, takes it out of the battery category," Boyle said
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Boyle is one of the best there is. Period.
In an unrelated incident where Boyle represented a group of students at an "Administrative Hearing" ** (a hearing in-front of University Administrators - more serious than a "Student Conduct Hearing", which is heard in-front of a panel of other students), Boyle was a relentless advocate for his clients. Boyle's vast expertise and uniquely polished style made Marquette's counsel - not a newbie, by any means - look fresh out of Law School.
If Boyle is demanding a trial (regardless of the true intent), he knows what he's doing.
** When students involved in the Student Conduct Process obtain counsel for a hearing (either administrative or in front of a student conduct board), as standard practice, Marquette will bring an attorney of their own to serve in a non-voting, strictly advisory capacity.
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Looks like a justified battery to defend one self.
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For me, the lynchpin here is Cottingham. He, too, is an attorney. I can't believe Boyle is representing Blue by coincidence or that he is choosing to challenge the ticket without Cottingham's either implicit or explicit approval, which to me means that Cottingham was presented with the information and made the judgement that this should be drop-kicked out of existence to remove a potential shadow/smear. I just can't come up with a scenario where he did not sign off on this.
If Cottingham is smart, he stays pretty clear of this thing. He doesn't want to be involved in the judicial affairs of a student athlete.
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Boyle will cream this guy on the stand. He's a total pro. The only thing dumber than picking a fight with Vander is showing up to court so Jerry Boyle can make you look foolish in front of the media.
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was the victim drunk? why didnt he report it at the time of the incident?
Blue's attorney will have a field day...
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Something that's of significant importance I didn't see mentioned elsewhere: while Blue was determined to be in violation of the Marquette Student Code of Conduct after a hearing, the standard of evidence at such hearings is not the common notion of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the typical standard of evidence in serious criminal cases).
This is going to be an in-depth post, but due to recent high-profile cases involving Marquette student athletes, a comparison providing a bit of insight into these processes - not only in this case - but in any case involving the Student Conduct Process - is sorely needed. Particularly, even though one may have been found "at-fault" through Marquette's internal processes - that in-and-of-itself does not necessarily equate to "guilt" in a legal sense.
Student Conduct Process vs. Court Process - A Brief Comparison
While there is no comparable legal standard of evidence to that which the University employs in the Student Conduct Process, the most similar is the standard of "by a preponderance of the evidence" - a common standard of evidence in civil trials (aka, lawsuits). Under this standard, if the weight of the evidence against you is greater than 50%, you are found to be at fault.
The University's disciplinary system is not a traditional "adversarial system" (think prosecutor vs. defense with both sides fighting to win), per se, as its goals are much different than a legal proceeding. Rather than "prosecuting students", the goals of the Student Conduct Process are (1) to allow the student to admit their mistake and make amends with themselves, the community, and (if applicable) the other part(ies) involved, and (2) to ensure the student does not repeat this action in the future.
Indeed, in cases where the weight of evidence is not in favor of the student (the "preponderance of evidence" not in the student's favor is greater than 50%), the student is expected to admit fault and express remorse so that the process of "personal growth" can begin. The notion is that if a student cannot admit fault and express remorse regarding what he or she did, the "breach of trust" that has been committed cannot begin to begin to heal. The belief is this "breach of trust" does not just affect victims, but the Marquette community as a whole. According to the University, this process "fully embodies the values embraced by Marquette University as Jesuit institution. We believe this process embraces the essential philosophy of cura personalis - care for the whole person".
In summary, a finding of fault through the Student Conduct Process for a violation has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of a successful criminal prosecution of the same offense.
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Boyle will cream this guy on the stand. He's a total pro. The only thing dumber than picking a fight with Vander is showing up to court so Jerry Boyle can make you look foolish in front of the media.
+1
Gerry Boyle's services command top-dollar for a very good reason.
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Something to keep in mind, as well:
Marquette's Department of Public Safety has cameras everywhere - particularly on Wells Street. These aren't just stationary cameras that record one location. Rather, there is an entire "command center" in the DPS Headquarters just one block south of where this "incident" took place with floor-to-ceiling flat-screen monitors so that officers can "see what the cameras see". At all times, though especially around bar close on the weekends, DPS officers constantly pan-and-scan, zooming in and out if they notice even the slightest hint of trouble.
Chances are, if this incident was caught on camera, when representing Blue in the Student Conduct Process, Boyle may have very well requested the footage of this incident. If it shows Blue only struck to defend himself, in the slim chance this ever goes to trial, that mitigating factor alone may very well be all Boyle needs to establish reasonable doubt.
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My guess is Vander gets off of this. And with Boyle behind him, will probably end up in the clear of any other allegations he may or may not be currently facing. But the bottom line is that he shouldn't be putting himself in position to have to rely on someone like Boyle to pull his fat out of the fryer. If he isn't "settling something outside", or shoving other students, or engaged in these and other distasteful situations, there is no issue.
Blue represents Marquette. He should be doing so in a more responsible and mature manner.
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+1
Gerry Boyle's services command top-dollar for a very good reason.
Which begs another question....who is paying for Mr. Boyle's services? If he is doing this pro bono, does he do this pro bono for other MU students? If not, that could raise another set of questions.
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yeah what happens if other MU students asked for his services.
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Which begs another question....who is paying for Mr. Boyle's services? If he is doing this pro bono, does he do this pro bono for other MU students? If not, that could raise another set of questions.
My guess is that, as a significant booster of the program (read: big-time $$$ to the Blue-and-Gold Fund), Boyle would do anything in his power to help the team. If he gives money, why not his time? He's in a prime position to help a cause he supports (MU Basketball) in more ways than just a monetary donation.
Regarding pro bono work, attorneys choose which cases they take pro bono. No requirements are imposed regarding selection of cases and no explanation necessary. In fact, some firms (though Boyle runs his own practice) such as Godfrey & Kahn reimburse their employees for up to 50 billable-hours of pro bono work per year. "True", unreimbursed pro bono work may also be considered tax deductible, depending on the circumstances.
yeah what happens if other MU students asked for his services.
Since technically he isn't representing the University, but rather, a private citizen (who just-so-happens to be the recipient an NCAA Division I scholarship), the University isn't caught in a conflict-of-interest regarding providing legal counsel to other students in similar situations.
And if other MU students asked for his services? If they can afford his initial retainer and hourly rate, I'm sure he would gladly provide his services. ;)
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I can't believe Boyle is representing Blue by coincidence or that he is choosing to challenge the ticket without Cottingham's either implicit or explicit approval.
Hardly a coincidence.
In a circumstance such as this, it's more than reasonable to assume representing Blue was at Boyle's own initiative...although one can reasonably make an assumption he checked with Cottingham, first. Cottingham couldn't explicitly endorse the idea in any way-shape-or-form, but it's reasonable to assume someone who's on a first name basis with the Athletic Director would call someone he considers a personal friend for a bit of advice - strictly as a friend, and not in any official capacity.
In other words, "Hey Steve. I know you can't officially endorse this - nor would I ask you to - but I was thinking of representing Blue with his...recent issue...completely pro bono. Can you think of potential liabilities that it may cause......No? Ok."
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Hardly a coincidence.
In a circumstance such as this, it's more than reasonable to assume representing Blue was at Boyle's own initiative...although one can reasonably make an assumption he checked with Cottingham, first. Cottingham couldn't explicitly endorse the idea in any way-shape-or-form, but it's reasonable to assume someone who's on a first name basis with the Athletic Director would call someone he considers a personal friend for a bit of advice - strictly as a friend, and not in any official capacity.
In other words, "Hey Steve. I know you can't officially endorse this - nor would I ask you to - but I was thinking of representing Blue with his...recent issue...completely pro bono. Can you think of potential liabilities that it may cause......No? Ok."
Gerry?! Is that you?????? ;)
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TMJ4 just was live outside Qdoba.
Someone should have rocked Vander's jersey and did an "impromptu" fight with a friend - based on the details.
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My guess is that, as a significant booster of the program (read: big-time $$$ to the Blue-and-Gold Fund), Boyle would do anything in his power to help the team. If he gives money, why not his time? He's in a prime position to help a cause he supports (MU Basketball) in more ways than just a monetary donation.
Regarding pro bono work, attorneys choose which cases they take pro bono. No requirements are imposed regarding selection of cases and no explanation necessary. In fact, some firms (though Boyle runs his own practice) such as Godfrey & Kahn reimburse their employees for up to 50 billable-hours of pro bono work per year. "True", unreimbursed pro bono work may also be considered tax deductible, depending on the circumstances.
Since technically he isn't representing the University, but rather, a private citizen (who just-so-happens to be the recipient an NCAA Division I scholarship), the University isn't caught in a conflict-of-interest regarding providing legal counsel to other students in similar situations.
And if other MU students asked for his services? If they can afford his initial retainer and hourly rate, I'm sure he would gladly provide his services. ;)
Totally get it, but there is a fine line with extra benefits and what student athletes can receive vs the "normal" student, that's why I asked the question.
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Totally get it, but there is a fine line with extra benefits and what student athletes can receive vs the "normal" student, that's why I asked the question.
It's a fair question, but I can recall Boyle representing MU athletes - Damon Key in particular - way back when I was there.
So, I would hope that if there's a question about extra benefits, it's something that's been examined by now and dealt with appropriately.
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Stop all of this "crime" stuff. Vander Blue is not charged with a crime. The only possible penalty is a money forfeiture. This was not charged by the District Attorney's office in circuit court, but rather was charged in municipal court. It is equivalent to a traffic ticket, as there is no incarceration time available. Why not roll the dice on this one? I am an Assistant District Attorney in another county and deal with these all of the time. Cases that are marginal often are referred over for charging as crimes, but I chose to charge as civil ordinance violations instead. The standard of proof is not "beyond a reasonable doubt," as it would be for a crime. I view these as nothing burgers, frankly.
Further, in order to prove a battery, the city will have to prove that Vander caused pain without the victim's permission. Kind of hard to prove lack of permission in a mutual combat situation. "I asked him outside to fight, but didn't give him permission to hit me," really doesn't work well. Hence the Disorderly Conduct offer, which is much easier to prove.
Gerry Boyle is a veteran defense attorney. He does have a fondness for Marquette. His daughter graduated from the law school the year before I did. I am not shocked that he is representing Vander. For goodness sakes, he represented Dahmer. Gerry is no stranger to the spotlight. He will represent Vander well.
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Further, in order to prove a battery, the city will have to prove that Vander caused pain without the victim's permission. Kind of hard to prove lack of permission in a mutual combat situation. "I asked him outside to fight, but didn't give him permission to hit me," really doesn't work well. Hence the Disorderly Conduct offer, which is much easier to prove.
To me, it sounds like the most sensible resolution would've been for MPD to give both of 'em DC tickets. Street fightin' certainly qualifies as disorderly conduct.
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Which begs another question....who is paying for Mr. Boyle's services? If he is doing this pro bono, does he do this pro bono for other MU students? If not, that could raise another set of questions.
What other set of questions might that be. Can't I give anything away any time I so choose? Guaranteed Boyle comes without charge to Blue or MU.
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To me, it sounds like the most sensible resolution would've been for MPD to give both of 'em DC tickets. Street fightin' certainly qualifies as disorderly conduct.
If only VB would have hit him with the upper cut, that sent this punk into flames, this would have all been settled on the street.
(http://fluffyturtle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/sft22.jpg)
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To me, it sounds like the most sensible resolution would've been for MPD to give both of 'em DC tickets. Street fightin' certainly qualifies as disorderly conduct.
And that might be one reason that Vander refused the deal to plead down to the DC charge...the other kid got no charge at all. They can't make the assault and battery charge stick because there was consent. With the DC, it is an issue of selective prosecution, and I can see why a kid wouldn't want to accept that.
/end speculation/
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Other than the inconvenience of going to trial and the attorney fees, are there any other deterrents for the plaintiff to elect to go forward with the trial?
Also, could he pursue a "civil" claim?
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Other than the inconvenience of going to trial and the attorney fees, are there any other deterrents for the plaintiff to elect to go forward with the trial?
Also, could he pursue a "civil" claim?
The plaintiff in this case is the City of Milwaukee. Did you mean defendant, or are you asking about the complaining witness?
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If only VB would have hit him with the upper cut, that sent this punk into flames, this would have all been settled on the street.
I always preferred SubZero ripping out the spine
(http://thumb-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/subzero.jpg)
But in Vander's case, the friendship move would have been the smart one
(http://synystergraves.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/friendship.png)
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Without going back to reread all these posts and refer to a particular poster's post, these are things that occurred to me when reading the previous posts.
1. Blue was offered to settle on a lessor charge and turn it down. I think this means he is going to trial on the original charge. That seems foolish to me, but I think Blue is more affraid of Buzz's punishment, which is going to based on whether he is guilty.
2. My guess is that Boyle is being paid by MU, because this has a negative effect on the bashketball programs reputation. Also, if Buzz feels he needs to discipline Blue based on the outcome, he will do whatever he can to give Blue the best defense.
3. The idea that a video from a camera on the outside of Qdouba is something they would want to use as evidence does not seem like a good idea to me. The camera is not going to show the discussion that went on inside Qdouba. Based on what I read here is that the video is going to show Blue taking the first and maybe only swing.
4. Somebody wondered why it took 24 hrs for the other party to file a complaint with the police department. I thought I read that it went ot the police, because it was refered there by the MU.
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4. Somebody wondered why it took 24 hrs for the other party to file a complaint with the police department. I thought I read that it went ot the police, because it was refered there by the MU.
Per Rosiak's timeline, the fight happened about 1:30 a.m., the kid who got punched reported it to DPS about 7:30 p.m. and then, at his request, DPS contacted MPD about it.
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Why are these articles being written by Don Walker and not Todd Rosiak? Is he just on vacation for a bit?
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Why are these articles being written by Don Walker and not Todd Rosiak? Is he just on vacation for a bit?
Todd is on the Brewers beat in the summer.
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The plaintiff in this case is the City of Milwaukee. Did you mean defendant, or are you asking about the complaining witness?
Oh ok. I thought perhaps the student initiated this lawsuit and therefore had control over whether it would go to the next step (trial). I thought perhaps he may get cold feet, and drop the complaint in which case it wouldn't move forward.
If the City is the plaintiff, then am I correct in assuming this will ultimately go to trial (because the complaining witness will not bear the expense or have any other deterrent not to proceed with the trial)?
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I do not know this specific case, but I can tell you that complaining witnesses often want the State (or City in this case) to drop charges. Often the complaining witnesses make themselves unavailable to be served or fail to attend these civil trials. I know that earlier someone said the complaining witness was a Milwaukee resident, but in my cases, witnesses (especially the cases that come from a local college when trials are set at a break time) leave the jurisdiction and are unable to be served.
The complaining witness has nothing personal to gain other than a conviction to be arguably used if he pursues a civil (read: CASH) legal option.
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What other set of questions might that be. Can't I give anything away any time I so choose? Guaranteed Boyle comes without charge to Blue or MU.
Not without having the NCAA get really excited along with the MU Athletics Compliance office.
Think....Free Shoes Shoebox at Wisconsin-madison as just one of many examples. One can't just give away free stuff or services to athletes only, that's a huge no-no.
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What is interesting about this is that if the original charge was disorderly conduct, instead of the DC charge being the offer to settle, I think Vander is in trouble.
Disorderly conduct is conduct that tends to cause or provoke a disturbance. Clearly Vander’s conduct did that it would seem. (Keep in mind that even though not charged in this case, both parties can be disorderly, so the defense of “the other guy did it too” doesn’t work for DC. However, as Boyle is talking about, battery requires a lack of consent on the other party. If two guys get in a heated verbal argument, as appears to be the case, and one invites the other outside to settle the matter, as appears to be the case, and the other goes, as appears to be the case, and since, as anybody with any common sense knows, the invitation to go outside and settle the matter is an invitation to a physical altercation; then the other guy is consenting to the fight by going outside, as appears to be the case.
If I were the prosecutor I would amend this to the DC, or just issue a second charge since both could be charged. In the end DC is easier to prove, doesn’t have the consent issue problem, and, since these are muni charges, are really almost equivalent since the forfeiture is likely to be the same for a college-age kid no matter which he charge he gets convicted of.
A couple of comments on some posts above:
“Looks like a justified battery to defend one self.” I am not trying to take the other side, but I have yet to see the need for Vander to “defend” himself, at least not in a physical self-defense sense. Even if Vander’s statement that he accidentally hit the guy when he pushed him back is true, it doesn’t really work as self-defense since Vander started the physical altercation by pushing the other guy first. It does come back to the consent issue though, since now, instead of just coming outside (as I understand it the other guy is trying to claim he didn’t know that the invitation to go outside was to fight,) the other guy is actively engaging in the altercation.
Also, in discussing the burden of proof issue, above the comment was made that “in summary, a finding of fault through the Student Conduct Process for a violation has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of a successful criminal prosecution of the same offense.” Except an ordinance violation is not a criminal charge, and the burden of proof is by a clear, statisfatory and convincing evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Also, in discussing the burden of proof issue, above the comment was made that “in summary, a finding of fault through the Student Conduct Process for a violation has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of a successful criminal prosecution of the same offense.” Except an ordinance violation is not a criminal charge, and the burden of proof is by a clear, satisfactory and convincing evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt.
Indeed. However, I was expanding my point so as to also include two other, separate incident that are being investigated by authorities - authorities with the potential to bring felony/misdemeanor charges.
The same statement holds true. The findings of the Student Conduct Process bear no weight on the likelihood of being found guilty - whether the offense is municipal, state, or federal.
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How many legal eagles are really in this thread? :)
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I dont think this has been posted yet, but Eamonn Brennan on ESPN blogged about the situation involving VB (or is it VO?) this morning
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/29991/dont-call-vander-blue-uncreative-names
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Any chance MU is footing the bill for this using an argument that he was a target because he was an athlete, and therefore it relates to his "involvement in athletic practice or events"? I recognize this is a stretch argument, but perhaps there is some precdent.
NCAA rule:
Expenses Related to Legal and Other Proceedings.
Previous Cite: 16.3.1.2 Life Skills Programs. Next Cite: 16.3.3 Expenses Related to Initial or Transfer-Eligibility Requirements.
An institution may provide actual and necessary expenses to attend proceedings conducted by the institution, its athletics conference or the NCAA that relate to the student-athlete's eligibility to participate in intercollegiate athletics or legal proceedings that result from the student-athlete's involvement in athletics practice or competitive events. The cost of legal representation in such proceedings also may be provided by the institution (or a representative of its athletics interests). (Revised: 5/9/06)
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I dont think this has been posted yet, but Eamonn Brennan on ESPN blogged about the situation involving VB (or is it VO?) this morning
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/29991/dont-call-vander-blue-uncreative-names
He's going to be called Vander Orange with plenty of chants at every road game. Oh well. Classic example of Sticks and Stones may break some bones....you have to ignore this crap when they call you that stuff. Easier said than done, I realize.
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He's going to be called Vander Orange with plenty of chants at every road game. Oh well. Classic example of Sticks and Stones may break some bones....you have to ignore this crap when they call you that stuff. Easier said than done, I realize.
I have a feeling that there was more to it than just some simple name-calling. Although, Jim Everett would probably tell you that name-calling can be enough to start an altercation.
(In regards to taunting crowd chants...If the Heat and Bulls play in the Conf Finals, I REALLY hope the crowds gets a good "Deloooonte...Deloooonte" chant going whenever LBJ is at the line. Seriously, how does he not hear that every place he goes?!)
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I recognize this is a stretch argument, but perhaps there is some precdent.
KC - that is a stretch. I will tell you from my own involvement in some student-athlete cases, they were always left to their own devices to procure counsel. Not sure on the pro bono situation that others have suggested either.
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I have a feeling that there was more to it than just some simple name-calling. Although, Jim Everett would probably tell you that name-calling can be enough to start an altercation.
(In regards to taunting crowd chants...If the Heat and Bulls play in the Conf Finals, I REALLY hope the crowds gets a good "Deloooonte...Deloooonte" chant going whenever LBJ is at the line. Seriously, how does he not hear that every place he goes?!)
Jim Everett actually did. I was paired up with him in Hawaii to play golf about 8 or 9 years ago. A fun round of golf with Jim Kelly behind us drunk as a skunk and hitting into us. Yeah, when he went after Rome there were some other things involved.
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Care to share some deats CBB? Or at least via PM? :)
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Care to share some deats CBB? Or at least via PM? :)
He didn't say. We talked about it, along with the others in the 5 some....we were all there for the old Quarterback Challenge competition which hasn't aired in a few years. Someone in our group asked if he would share the story...did he just get frustrated and attack Rome for the comments or was there a back story. From what I recall, he said it was the last straw and the name calling was what put him over the edge. He didn't get into what led up to it. I believe Rome was attacking him publicly for some time and putting them both in the same room wasn't the best idea in the world. Rome is about my size, Everett is a BIG BIG boy.
I found Everett to be a pretty good guy that day for 5+ hours. Never liked Rome.
http://www.youtube.com/v/9HNgqQVHI_8
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Didn't realize Rome is a midget
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Not sure on the pro bono situation that others have suggested either.
Ok, Legal Warrior-Eagles (and those in-training), time for some Constitutional Law 101!
The NCAA's chief concern is student-athletes receiving additional "compensation" other than scholarships. More specifically, they're concerned with tangible benefits i.e., a car, first class travel for family, product endorsements, etc.
To compare a car to the simple result of a private citizen (who also happens to be a [damn good] lawyer) performing his expected civic duty (pro-bono work) - while simultaneously protecting a person's Sixth Amendment right-to-counsel - can be considered neither "tangible" nor a "benefit".
Regardless of whatever sort-of draconian rules or regulations the NCAA may have, not a single one goes so-far as to deny student-athletes their rights guaranteed by our Constitution.
In a nutshell?
The University paying for an attorney for a student-athlete = Benefit
An attorney decided on-their-own to represent a student-athlete and do it for free = Non-benefit
Neither a conflict-of-interest nor a violation of NCAA Regulations is present - and thus, there's no reason to fear any sort-of future sanctions coming-down from the NCAA.
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In a nutshell?
The University paying for an attorney for a student-athlete = Benefit
An attorney decided on-their-own to represent a student-athlete and do it for free = Non-benefit
Neither a conflict-of-interest nor a violation of NCAA Regulations is present - and thus, there's no reason to any sort-of future sanctions coming-down from the NCAA.
Unless said private citizen happens to qualify as a booster, in which case pro-bono, or event discounted, legal work would qualify as an impermissible benefit.
And yes, professional services (valued at thousands of dollars, no less) are considered a benefit just as much as a car or $100 handshake.
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Okay how about Vander was pleading for more court time?
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We all know Vander can't hit anything on the court so Boyle probably figured that a jury would never believe that he could hit anything off the court.
Congratulations! You are the 1 millionth person to make this joke!
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I think we have to give our Athletic Department a little credit here. Our AD is a lawyer. I'm sure they've done their due diligence to make sure that this isn't a violation. It's not like it took some major leak to reveal Boyle was defending Vander or those in the other cases going on.
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And on a lighter note...
Since today seems to be "Honorary Gerry Boyle Day" on MU Scoop...
According to today's Warrior-Sentinel article, Rodd Tosiak writes:
"In the case of Gerry Boyle (and The People) v. Jim Rome, today Mr. Rome was found guilty of the newly created crime of "leading a criminally negligent existence".
Newly elected Supreme Judge-Jury-and-Executioner Lord Gerry Boyle hailed Rome's sentence as the hallmark of his newly elected lifetime position. Boyle's campaign was run on a single pledge: "to drop a massive Truth-Bomb on Jim Rome."
Lord Boyle then turned to Rome and stated, "Defendant Rome is hereby sentenced to receive multiple simultaneous concussions until such-a-point whereas Mr. Rome "Truly" believes the things he says."
After banging his gavel in a manner that that can only be described as resembling a game of Whack-A-Mole, Boyle then proceeded to run wild through the halls of the courthouse, leaving only a trail of $100 bills in his wake."
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I think we have to give our Athletic Department a little credit here. Our AD is a lawyer. I'm sure they've done their due diligence to make sure that this isn't a violation. It's not like it took some major leak to reveal Boyle was defending Vander or those in the other cases going on.
Absolutely agree, and there will be plenty of precedent that the institution can look at and rely on. Unfortunately, access to those precedents is no longer public (the NCAA made them password-protected about a year ago).
I wholeheartedly trust that the administration has done this the right way. Just not sure which right way they ended up proceeding by.
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Unfortunately, access to those precedents is no longer public (the NCAA made them password-protected about a year ago).
Interesting....
When they did this, where did they decide to make the "cut-off", so-to-speak? In other words, what "level" is this access restricted to, then? Each University's In-House Counsel? University Athletic Department-level? Each Conference's Administration-level?
With their "sterling reputation" for transparency, it wouldn't surprise me the NCAA Management Council made everything strictly Cabinet/Committee-Level "Eyes-Only" now... ::)
If you happen to still have the link what used to be the main public page for the database, try plugging the URL into the "Wayback Machine" at http://www.archive.org/.
It's like a time-capsule - they take snapshots of what a HUGE amount of the web. For example, you can see what cnn.com or marquette.edu looked like at a certain point in-time in 2005 or 2006 (through the present), for example.
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Okay how about Vander was pleading for more court time?
This was just a Preliminary Hearing - they probably spent no more than 30 seconds in front of the judge (and probably well-more than 30 minutes after their scheduled time just waiting for their case to be called...). It's literally a matter of, "How do you plead? Not guilty? Ok...case is continued until May 23rd at 9am in Room 123. Post your deposit with the Cashier on your way out."
Regarding a Request for a Continuance (more time), it really isn't necessary since they get an unofficial continuance anyways since the next available time on the court calendar is at more than likely some time in May...
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I think we have to give our Athletic Department a little credit here. Our AD is a lawyer. I'm sure they've done their due diligence to make sure that this isn't a violation. It's not like it took some major leak to reveal Boyle was defending Vander or those in the other cases going on.
+1
Cottingham is as sharp-as-they-come. He has a reputation for being a stickler for detail - a trait that's no-doubt served him well.
And as far as the "leak"? Perhaps the other involved party? Or maybe not. It wasn't exactly a campus secret...
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Interesting....
When they did this, where did they decide to make the "cut-off", so-to-speak? In other words, what "level" is this access restricted to, then? Each University's In-House Counsel? University Athletic Department-level? Each Conference's Administration-level?
As I understand it (from when they rolled out the username protocol), if you are working for a university and listed in the school's directory of contacts for the ncaa, you can get access easily (includes all coaches and staff members). In fact, much of the NCAA public website has changed and been hidden behind the password protection. There maybe a way for joe public to get access, even via a password, but I haven't explored that yet.
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In fact, much of the NCAA public website has changed and been hidden behind the password protection.
Something tells me all this went down after NCAA President Myles Brand passed away from cancer in 2009? The atmosphere surrounding the NCAA leadership that came with the start of Mark Emmert's tenure as President is in marked contrast to that of Brand.
While Brand was certainly controversial (a certain crusade against Indian mascots seems to come to mind), I can't recall the term "lack of transparency" being used while Brand was at the helm. For better or worse, you knew what the guy was thinking.
Edit: I think the first line of this article sums it up best (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6117101 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6117101))
"NCAA president Mark Emmert says transparency is critical to the future of the NCAA, though he doesn't yet know the best way to accomplish that goal."
I've gotta at least give the guy credit for admitting it...
"In answer to your question, yes, we lack transparency.....Wait, you're asking me what do I actually plan to do to CHANGE that? <crickets> Great question...I'll get back to you on that." ::)
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I will say this - yes I think the timing is correct in the way you are describing (winter of 09-10 IIRC).
I was working in athletics at the time, and it was actually a nice step that they took. It allowed more streamlined information to be available to you as soon as you accessed the NCAA website, by taking into account your preferences for news feeds, etc. Saved a lot of searching/drilling around to find the specific information you were looking for.
However, now that I am on the other side of the looking glass, it is infuriating to not be able to access the same information.
I don't agree with your characterizations, but have to admit the timing syncs about right.
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Didn't realize Rome is a midget
None of us knew you were gay until earlier this year...we all learn something. Based on some of the hot women you deem as uninspiring, I can only surmise that is your deal...not that there is anything wrong with that. ;)
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And yes, professional services (valued at thousands of dollars, no less) are considered a benefit just as much as a car or $100 handshake.
But my guess is that since lawyers do pro-bono work as a matter of their professional responsibilities, and document such pro-bono work, that he would be able to do so in this case.
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Is Boyle actually doing this pro bono or is this just board specualtion?
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It is speculation, but why would Vander fight a $300 some such fine by hiring an attorney like Boyle who would cost him at least double that?
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It is speculation, but why would Vander fight a $300 some such fine by hiring an attorney like Boyle who would cost him at least double that?
Because everything I read about this gives me the impression that Blue thinks he is above everyone else.
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I know people who know Vander, and that is not how he is at all. He is a young college student, who struggled with some things in the fall, including Buzz's coaching, but got humbled a little bit and works real hard both on the court and in the classroom. Please don't make projections based on things you read.
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Because everything I read about this gives me the impression that Blue thinks he is above everyone else.
Everything you've read about this? So the complainant's statement?
I know people who know Vander, and that is not how he is at all. He is a young college student, who struggled with some things in the fall, including Buzz's coaching, but got humbled a little bit and works real hard both on the court and in the classroom. Please don't make projections based on things you read.
He was a nice and humble young man when I ran into him and DJO one night. We weren't near campus and I didn't explain anything about who I was. They were both really very nice and generous with their time.
Everybody has a bad day. Especially with all of the pressure of being a freshman in college, much less the spotlight being on you with regards to bball.
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Because everything I read about this gives me the impression that Blue thinks he is above everyone else.
I don't see where that comes from.
Vander came across as a level headed person for his age when he was going through the threats and harassment of a powerful lobby of Badgers alumni during his de-commitment. On top of that, it seems that his mother, Rita, is also considered a pretty solid influence in his life.
You can be a good teenager and still do something an adult won't like. We all know college kids haven't learned life's lessons to the point where they can have the maturity to swallow the stupidity they're bound to be presented with from their peers.
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Because everything I read about this gives me the impression that Blue thinks he is above everyone else.
From everything I have read about you, it gives me the impression that you know nothing about what you post. ::)
Seriously, you actually made that comment? Wow, talk about conjecture without any basis of facts. Crap like that comment really have no purpose in being made.
Some of the comments in these threads really make me wonder why anyone would want to play at MU.
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From everything I have read about you, it gives me the impression that you know nothing about what you post. ::)
Seriously, you actually made that comment? Wow, talk about conjecture without any basis of facts. Crap like that comment really have no purpose in being made.
Some of the comments in these threads really make me wonder why anyone would want to play at MU.
Perhaps because they are smart enough to not pay attention to most of this crap. They should be practicing free throws, not reading this board