Archdiocese of New Orleans

[Goose]

Over the past several years I have become more involved with my Catholic faith than any time in my lifetime. Born and raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from K-5 until my last day MU, but never was overly active in my faith. A ton of reasons caused me not to be active and most were good excuses in my mind for not being active. I have few regrets on why I was not involved and chalked up to not being ready to fully commit.

That said, I have worked extremely hard to separate my feelings of the leadership and my belief in God. To be honest, virtually every aspect of the leadership makes me sick and sad. I struggle to understand their behavior and the handling of the mess they have made. Furthermore, I cannot find myself praying for them and supporting them financially. I can live to be 100 years old and will never understand the mess they made and how it happened.

Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.

I guess to sum it up, I am beyond disgusted with what has happened with the leadership and the lives that been ruined. I cannot understand how someone in a trusted position can be so evil, especially representing God's word. I am proud on my faith and will continue to try and build on it, but the leadership will never be trusted again by me.

[Pakuni]

Good point.  I think the bigger issue with the celibacy rule is recruitment of priests.  The pool of candidates would increase substantially, I would think.  And the Church could be flexible:  right now diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty.  Order priests do (Franciscans, for example)(the jury is still out on Jesuits).  Offer non celibacy as an option.  Keep it if that’s your particular culture given the order.

The downside of allowing priests to marry/have families is how do you support them. The Catholic Church itself is extraordinarily wealthy because of what it owns, but parishes by and large are not. Now you're asking congregations not only to support a couple of single male priests living together, but families in individual homes. That's going to be a pretty substantial financial burden that doesn't exist today.

[MUBurrow]

Just wanna voice appreciation for a really good conversation here with lots of thoughtful posts. 

My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood.  The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions.  That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed.  The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities.  If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.

Removing the vow of celibacy is a step toward creating a more healthy conversation around sexuality in the clergy.  IMHO it would also help lead to women in higher positions of church authority, which is also a must to help solve this problem.

[jutaw22mu]

I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia

Me too...

[Goose]

MUBurrow

Great post and I agree completely. It makes me sad because I know a younger priest, he went to school with my kids, and I struggle understanding why he became a priest. He has offered very mature advice to me over the past few years when I needed it, but I struggle to respect his words because of the role he has at the parish. Basically, in my mind he is guilty by association and that troubles me that I feel that way. I am happy I trust God and sad I do not trust the people that share his words to me.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.

After being away for a few years for a variety of reasons, my wife and I just joined a church in our faith tradition, and man does it feel good to be back worshiping in community. Just looking around on a beautiful Easter morning, it was moving to see people unified in their beliefs despite their differences in probably multitudes of ways. And this church is active in its community, reaching out to serve in a variety of ministries. We are excited about our future there.

[Goose]

Fluff

That is nice to hear. I probably did not state myself correctly. I do like being in Mass with other people of similar beliefs and I like that aspect a lot. I just feel my lack of trust for priests takes away some of the sense of community.

Full disclosure, several years ago when I started to practice my faith it took me months of going to Mass to feel like I belonged, and I kept going. It was on Palm Sunday the following year that I 100% felt like I belonged in this community, and it felt great. Our parish I has countless families that have 6+ kids and I love seeing the families every week.

[rocket surgeon]

After being away for a few years for a variety of reasons, my wife and I just joined a church in our faith tradition, and man does it feel good to be back worshiping in community. Just looking around on a beautiful Easter morning, it was moving to see people unified in their beliefs despite their differences in probably multitudes of ways. And this church is active in its community, reaching out to serve in a variety of ministries. We are excited about our future there.

  maybe you could take reeeko, but i'd hate for them to kick you out so soon

[Uncle Rico]

  maybe you could take reeeko, but i'd hate for them to kick you out so soon

I’m a fully practicing evangelical Christian

[21Jumpstreet]

Just wanna voice appreciation for a really good conversation here with lots of thoughtful posts. 

My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood.  The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions.  That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed.  The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities.  If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.

Removing the vow of celibacy is a step toward creating a more healthy conversation around sexuality in the clergy.  IMHO it would also help lead to women in higher positions of church authority, which is also a must to help solve this problem.

This is such an outstanding post.

[Jockey]

I was unaware there's a link between celibacy and pedophilia

I do think there is a ink between celibacy and gay priests, though.

[JWags85]

My take on the celibacy issue is that it is not a direct link to pedophilia, but it creates a self-selection problem in the priesthood.  The vow of celibacy creates, from day one, a preoccupation with and unrealistic expectation of spurning one's sexual predilictions.  That makes it a potential solution for all kinds of men who are otherwise sexually isolated, confused, and/or ashamed.  The priesthood throws all of those men together in a culture of secrecy and shame without any psychiatric or practical support and then inserts them into positions of absolute trust in schools and communities.  If I were TRYING to create an environment of sexual abuse and betrayal of trust, I don't know if I could design it better.

I'm certainly not trying to create a direct parallel nor classify priests in the same way expressly, but the dynamic has always reminded me of the sexual dynamics of long term prisoners.  Otherwise straight individuals begin engaging in homosexual activity due to a lack of outlet for normal sexual urges and behavior and its replaced with opportunity and power dynamics to create alternative, if not deviant, behavior.  Same could be seen with priests, but with even more shame, confusion, and misplaced urges and outcomes.

[Pakuni]

I'm certainly not trying to create a direct parallel nor classify priests in the same way expressly, but the dynamic has always reminded me of the sexual dynamics of long term prisoners.  Otherwise straight individuals begin engaging in homosexual activity due to a lack of outlet for normal sexual urges and behavior and its replaced with opportunity and power dynamics to create alternative, if not deviant, behavior.  Same could be seen with priests, but with even more shame, confusion, and misplaced urges and outcomes.

Not a rhetorical question, but is there evidence to suggest that a significant number of heterosexual priests are engaging in homosexual activity with consenting adult males? Other priests?
Assuming we're not talking about priest-on-priest action, why would there be an easier outlet for homosexual behavior? And would the ease be so substantially greater that it would lead a straight guy into gay behavior?
 

[Dickthedribbler]

Over the past several years I have become more involved with my Catholic faith than any time in my lifetime. Born and raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from K-5 until my last day MU, but never was overly active in my faith. A ton of reasons caused me not to be active and most were good excuses in my mind for not being active. I have few regrets on why I was not involved and chalked up to not being ready to fully commit.

That said, I have worked extremely hard to separate my feelings of the leadership and my belief in God. To be honest, virtually every aspect of the leadership makes me sick and sad. I struggle to understand their behavior and the handling of the mess they have made. Furthermore, I cannot find myself praying for them and supporting them financially. I can live to be 100 years old and will never understand the mess they made and how it happened.

Sadly, while I understand my belief is a personal relationship I have with God, I do struggle not feeling part of an overall community. I go pray everyday, try and go to Mass every week, but feel like it just God and me. I am very happy that I have truly have God in my life, I feel like a bigger part is missing in my life.

I guess to sum it up, I am beyond disgusted with what has happened with the leadership and the lives that been ruined. I cannot understand how someone in a trusted position can be so evil, especially representing God's word. I am proud on my faith and will continue to try and build on it, but the leadership will never be trusted again by me.

GOOSE-------I had to read this post 3 times, because it struck me as something I could have written about myself .

God bless you , man.

[warriorchick]

The downside of allowing priests to marry/have families is how do you support them. The Catholic Church itself is extraordinarily wealthy because of what it owns, but parishes by and large are not. Now you're asking congregations not only to support a couple of single male priests living together, but families in individual homes. That's going to be a pretty substantial financial burden that doesn't exist today.

How do Protestant Churches handle it?  I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.

Also,  I doubt there would be a  rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career.  It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

How do Protestant Churches handle it?  I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.

Also,  I doubt there would be a  rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career.  It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.

I can tell you that in many protestant churches the spouse usually works and often carries the benefits.

But I think many protestant churches are governed differently. Churches are their own entity and not "owned" by the larger church. For instance, in the Evangelical Lutheran church, the church is legally separate entity, governed by a Church Council, and it makes donations to the greater Church. So the central Church doesn't have near the resources that the Catholic Church has. Those churches can (and have) left the church to associate with another Lutheran church body in a manner consistent with its governing documents.

I don't know if that makes a difference but I think its a different model.

[Goose]

Dribbler

Thanks for the comment. Happy to see that I am not the only one with conflicting feelings on the topic. I really have just learned to talk about my faith over the past year, but it is not a topic I feel overly comfortable talking about and part of that is because of the mess the leaders have made. Again, happy to have some company in my thoughts.

[HouWarrior]

Not a rhetorical question, but is there evidence to suggest that a significant number of heterosexual priests are engaging in homosexual activity with consenting adult males? Other priests?
Assuming we're not talking about priest-on-priest action, why would there be an easier outlet for homosexual behavior? And would the ease be so substantially greater that it would lead a straight guy into gay behavior?

You would gain from reading:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/gay-priests-catholic-church.html

[Pakuni]

You would gain from reading:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/gay-priests-catholic-church.html

Sure, but that's about gay priests. JWags post was about heterosexual priests engaging in homosexual behavior because there aren't other options, as with straight prisoners engaging in homosexual behavior behind bars.

[dgies9156]

How do Protestant Churches handle it?  I'd venture to guess that the average Protestant congregation is smaller than the average Catholic parish, so they have fewer members supporting their pastor.

Also,  I doubt there would be a  rule that the priest's spouse couldn't have a career.  It wouldn't be any different than a regular married couple where one has a good job and the other person has a job that doesn't pay much, or is a volunteer position.

Sister Chick:

My Lutheran friends tell me their Pastor is given a Parsonage Allowance in lieu of a rectory. Keep in mind that most Protestant congregations do not have the bureaucracy and infrastructure that Roman Catholic parishes have. Each year, a Roman Catholic parish is "taxed" for the support of a Diocese. Down here, we call it the Diocesan Service Appeal, or DSA. If he we exceed our DSA allocation, we share any excess with with Diocese. If we miss, we pay for it out of regular collections. Without the Diocese to support, we'd keep a lot more of what we collected. Ditto for other "taxes" to such places as Rome. Peter's Pence, for example, is an allocated target. If you don't give it, you pay it through ops. Protestants don't have that.

It's a whole lot better than it used to be, but.....

Other overhead issues also are different. Few Protestant congregations have schools (Milwaukee Lutherans being the notably exception) to support. Many Catholic parishes do. Those schools mostly are NOT self-supporting.

Ultimately, Protestant congregations exist in loose confederation with each other and are far more democratic than traditional Roman Catholic parishes. If you want to start one, you can so long as you have like-minded Christians willing to support the operation. Catholics are similar except, and it's a big exception, that if the Bishop says "yes" or "no", the Parish must act accordingly.

I'm sure wives of Protestant ministers have careers. But the wife of a Pastor in a Protestant congregation, from what I understand, is akin to being First Lady. Lots of work. Not a lot of pay!

One last point, to the brother scooper who said Catholic parishes are poor -- some are, a lot aren't. In our parish, the winter collection plate approaches $40,000 a week. The summer is probably closer to $20,000. Our church was built in 1984 and expanded in 1988. Our Parish property is some of the most desirable real estate on our island and is valued at acquisition cost -- about $17 million. Besides a Church, we have a large Parish Center and a Rectory with 3/4 of an acre of surrounding land, a pool and a beautiful view of the Indian River. Our late Pastor embezzled $1.5 million and it's like we hardly missed it!

[HouWarrior]

Sure, but that's about gay priests. JWags post was about heterosexual priests engaging in homosexual behavior because there aren't other options, as with straight prisoners engaging in homosexual behavior behind bars.

Again, please read this article as it covers many related topics too...food for thought.

You may also enjoy the books by Richard Sipe (the expert voice on the phone in the movie “Spotlight”), to wit:
Sex, Priests, and Power: anatomy of a crisis, and
 Celibacy in Crisis: A Secret World Revisited,

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm sure wives of Protestant ministers have careers. But the wife of a Pastor in a Protestant congregation, from what I understand, is akin to being First Lady. Lots of work. Not a lot of pay!

Should probably use the term "spouse" here. About a third of Evangelical Lutheran pastors are women.

And the demands of a "first spouse" are not what they used to be. Almost all of them work outside the home.

[dgies9156]

Should probably use the term "spouse" here. About a third of Evangelical Lutheran pastors are women.

And the demands of a "first spouse" are not what they used to be. Almost all of them work outside the home.

I think you're correct. Too bad at least a third of our clergy isn't women!