MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: copious1218 on March 27, 2010, 01:58:38 PM
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With MU basketball over until October, and opening day a mere 8 days away, I thought it was about time to get this started up again. Any predictions for the upcoming season?
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The Cubs will suck.
That is all.
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if the top end of the cards pitching staff holds up, i just dont see how anyone in the division can/will beat them.
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Cardinals should be good. Brewers looking pretty good as well. I think its entirely possible the Cubs could finish behind the Reds. Tough to say really...I would pick the Cardinals, but I can't say I would be terribly surprised by anyone (except the Pirates) winning it.
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1. Cards
2. Cubs
3. Brewers
4. Reds
5. Astros
6. Pirates
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Cardinals should be good. Brewers looking pretty good as well. I think its entirely possible the Cubs could finish behind the Reds. Tough to say really...I would pick the Cardinals, but I can't say I would be terribly surprised by anyone (except the Pirates) winning it.
The Brewers pitching rotation leaves a lot to be desired. You have Gallardo (staff ace, potential all-star)...and then? Randy Wolf (OK, hope he pans out). And then? Parra, Suppan, Looper, Davis. Your basic pile of crap that I guess could present some surprises, but probably as much chance of presenting some disappointments.
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Your basic pile of crap that I guess could present some surprises, but probably as much chance of presenting some disappointments.
That's about how I see it, but I am taking the optimistic view...I think Gallardo and Wolf will be a very solid 1-2, and I expect Bush to pitch the way he did before he got drilled in the arm last year, which will be a solid third starter, and I look at Davis being around .500. The best thing that could happen to the Brewers would be Suppan suffering a career ending injury so they don't have any reason to trot his tired bones out there. The bullpen looks pretty solid, and I'll be surprised if they don't score plenty of runs.
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I look at it like this: the Brewers were a .500 team last year (80-82, so I guess a tiny below that), and they had a pitching staff of Gallardo, Looper, Bush, Suppan, and whoever Macha decided to throw out there (Parra, Villanueva, etc.). This year it's Gallardo, Wolf, Davis, Bush, and (hopefully) Parra. While this year is not good either, it is MUCH improved from last year's staff.
Last year Gallardo was probably a number 2 pitcher, this year hopefully he's ready to be a number 1 pitcher. Then you had Looper, who should've been a number 5 at best. This year you replace that with Wolf, who's probably a solid number 3 starter. Last year you had Bush, who was also probably a number 5 at best, and this year you replace him with Davis, who's probably a number 4. Then there's Bush this season at 4, who's probably a number 5, replacing Suppan, who's not even near a number 5 starter. And then hopefully Parra can begin to reach his potential this year and be a solid back end starter (not sure he will though). So while the rotation still isn't good, it's much better.
And I think the defense will be improved while the offense will be about the same (Gomez in place of Cameron takes a hit on the offense, but getting Weeks back and hopefully healthy will help that).
My hope is that the Brewers are in the high 80s in wins this year and battling for the Wild Card spot. I think the Cardinals easily have the best team, and then there will also be one surprise player for them, just like every season.
My prediction is:
1. Cardinals
2. Brewers (think they win the Wild Card)
3. Reds
4. Cubs
5. Astros
6. Pirates
It wouldn't surprise me to see teams 2-5 shuffle around, though.
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The Brewers bullpen still sucks.
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The Brewers bullpen still sucks.
There is more concern about the SP than the RP. The bullpen will be fine...Hoffman, Coffey and Hawkins will hold it down.
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The Brewers bullpen still sucks.
Yep, but not as bad as the Cubs apparently; at least last year.
'09 Bullpen ERA
Brewers - 3.97
Cubs - 4.06
My predicted order of finish
Cards (by at least 5 games)
Brewers
Cubs
Reds
Astros
Pirates
I would be very surprised if the Cards don't win if they stay relatively healthy. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the wild card come out of the central (Brewers or Cubs). A lot of people seem to be high on the Reds but I just don't see enough talent on that team right now for them to contend, but they only finished a couple games behind the crew last year so what do I know.
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Yep, but not as bad as the Cubs apparently; at least last year.
I agree. To hear a Cub fan talk about how the Brewers' bullpen sucks is laughable. The Brewers will not have a dominant bullpen, by any means, but to say it sucks is pretty funny.
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the reds just dont have enough SP. they are making some solid strides in their lineup, but their pitching is a threat to get shallacked everyday. if they played in a different park, their stats would be even worse.
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I'm just happy that this is the final year of Suppan's contract.
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Holy crap a lot of you are talking out of your Ass, Braden Looper is NO LONGER A BREWERS STARTER. Jesus if you're going to bullcrap at least get the roster right.
Now onto the Brewers pitching staff:
Starters: Gallardo, Wolf, Davis, Parra Bush/Suppan. This is actually a pretty good rotation. Back to back to back lefties on days 2 3 and 4 is pretty nice, not a lot of rotations have that. Parra is something of a headcase though. but moving him back to day four or even 5 takes a lot of pressure off him. Bush is often lights out April-june 1, so I can't complain about that. I wish Suppan would get traded or cut, but as a 5th+ starter, I won't expect a whole lot and he can always sub on an injury.
Bold Prediction: Capuano makes a (LATE) start for the Brewers/ Jeremy Jeffress doesn't smoke pot all season.
Vargas, Stetter, Narveson (two more lefties) and Villanueva aren't terrible relievers. Vargas can always come in if there is an injury in the rotation.
If the Brewers can get to Coffey/Hawkins/Hoffmann they should be in good shape.
On the offensive side, the Gamel injury could end up being pretty bad. I'm not sure McGehee can repeat his stats from last year. not sure what I think about the catchers I'd rather see a LuCroy or Salome in the majors. I love the real combination of speed and power the Brewers order has with Braun/Fielder and Weeks/Escobar/Carlos Gomez.
Bold Prediction: Braun, Gomez, Edmonds become the Regular outfield starters.
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There is more concern about the SP than the RP. The bullpen will be fine...Hoffman, Coffey and Hawkins will hold it down.
Long relief will be Parra/Suppan. I'm pretty sure, I could be mistaken, that the Brewers are thinking its Suppan or Parra for the fifth spot with the loser going relief.
Offense will be fine as long as the double headed monster (Braun/Prince) stays healthy.
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After reading some of these posts from Brewers fans, I think they're trying to steal Cubs' fans title as the eternal optimists...or clueless homers. Whichever you prefer.
That being said, my Cubs are built to win the World Series! Unfortunately, they're built to win the 2007 World Series and it's 2010. They're not going anywhere.
The Brewers could win 90 games or they could win 70 games - neither would surprise me. Young guys and inconsistent pitching usually don't work out well though.
I'd be shocked if the WC came from the Central because I could see 85 wins being enough to take the division.
Prediction...
1. Cardinals
2. Reds
t3. Cubs
t3. Brewers
5. Astros
6. Pirates
Overly elaborate prediction:The Cards, Cubs, and Brewers will be in a 3-team race most of the season but the Cubs and Brewers will both falter down the stretch and actually get passed by the surging Reds (who fired Dusty at the ASB). The Cards win 85, Reds 83, Cubs & Brewers 81.
OK, so maybe that wasn't much pissing but I really think that the top teams in the NL Central will be pretty mediocre this season. (Are there varying degrees of mediocre?)
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Bold Prediction: Braun, Gomez, Edmonds become the Regular outfield starters.
+1.
Well, I'm not sure about exactly how many starts Edmonds gets, but Corey Hart is not long for the everyday RF job. I say get what you can for him (which has been progressively less every day since I started saying that about 2-3 years ago). then use the money on Chad Gaudin.
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+1.
Well, I'm not sure about exactly how many starts Edmonds gets, but Corey Hart is not long for the everyday RF job. I say get what you can for him (which has been progressively less every day since I started saying that about 2-3 years ago). then use the money on Chad Gaudin.
Ever since the 2007 season (and first half of 08) he's gone downhill. strikes out almost once a game, 11/18 on steals last year, lowest batting average of career, only 12 HRs, 48 RBIs. Even if he did have an appendicitis, those are low numbers.
Depending how Lorenzo Cain does in AAA and how Gomez plays in Center, I bet Corey Hart is traded by the AS Break.
We'll have to see how Brett Lawrie does in the Minors too and how much money Prince wants/what teams need a DH
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That being said, my Cubs are built to win the World Series! Unfortunately, they're built to win the 2007 World Series and it's 2010.
That is a great line. Did you come up with that one yourself? Love it.
Young guys and inconsistent pitching usually don't work out well though.
The Brewers aren't really particularly young anymore though. They have many veterans, and I think Braun and Gomez have the least MLB experience and both of them will be starting their 4th season. If anything I would say the Brewers 'young guys' are all hitting what in theory would be the primes of their careers.
Otherwise I think you are pretty much on the money. All about pitching as usual. Whomever gets it will win the mediocre division.
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That is a great line. Did you come up with that one yourself? Love it.
The Brewers aren't really particularly young anymore though. They have many veterans, and I think Braun and Gomez have the least MLB experience and both of them will be starting their 4th season. If anything I would say the Brewers 'young guys' are all hitting what in theory would be the primes of their careers.
Otherwise I think you are pretty much on the money. All about pitching as usual. Whomever gets it will win the mediocre division.
Yes, I did come up that line myself. Thank you. As a life-long Cubs fan you have to develop a sense of humor or you'll lose your mind.
I looked into it and I stand corrected on the Brewers "young guys." Escobar and Gomez are young but McGehee (a Cubs cast-off) and Kottaras aren't as young as I had originally thought. Perhaps I should have replaced "young" with "inexprienced."
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I agree. To hear a Cub fan talk about how the Brewers' bullpen sucks is laughable. The Brewers will not have a dominant bullpen, by any means, but to say it sucks is pretty funny.
I never said the Cubs bullpen doesn't suck. It does. They have 3 rookies in the pen. Just because the Cubs bullpen sucks doesn't mean I can't say the Brewers bullpen sucks.
Based on your logic, because the Cubs bullpen sucks, I can't say that the Pirates bullpen sucks either.
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Holy crap a lot of you are talking out of your Ass, Braden Looper is NO LONGER A BREWERS STARTER. Jesus if you're going to bullcrap at least get the roster right.
One person said Looper was a starter, and he clearly is not a Brewers fan.
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I have said the Reds could be near the top of the division for 3 years...i have given up on that as Dusty Baker has ruined yet another young pitching staff!
As for the brewers, I don't see them doing much better than last year. I am going out on a limb to say the Mets will be the Wild Card before the brewers. Gallardo is a good ace! It sounds like everyone has put their money in the Randy Wolf hat...my guess is he turns out about as well as Jeff Suppan (at one time the brewers richest contract in team history). The rest of the rotation has proven to be sub-par! As a cubs fan, it hurt to see the brewers pick up Jimmy Edmonds, because he still has some life in him! I don't see the brewers making the playoffs.
As for the Cubs, pitching is overall weak as I don't see randy wells doing well (sophomore slump!). Hitting is there but it never happens. I don't see the Cubs making the playoffs either. Its the Cardinals divsion to lose
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As much as it pains me, I don't think the Brewers are capable of much more than what they did last year. Even if Randy Wolf and (one of my favorites) Doug Davis helps to shore up the pitching staff, that offense is far from balanced. Braun and Prince are unbelievable, but the Crew is kinda counting on a healthy Rickie Weeks, a non-useless Carlos Gomez, an improvement year for Corey Hart, Casey McGehee to be the real thing, and Escobar to provide consistent hitting in his rookie year to balance out that lineup. Too many contingencies for a team trying to make the playoffs, IMO.
+1 on the Cubs having the right team 3 years late...they've had that problem for 2 years now. I don't see how they sneak into the playoffs. If I were a Cubs fan I'd secretly be rooting for a bad first half so you can sell off whats left of Derrek Lee, Zambrano, and/or Aramis to a contender for parts.
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There is more concern about the SP than the RP. The bullpen will be fine...Hoffman, Coffey and Hawkins will hold it down.
Hawkins?
You mean the guy that sucked on the cubs? the giants? the yankees? and the astros?
I wouldn't put too much stock into him.
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Fun fact: The day the Marquette "Gold" decision came out, LaTroy was blowing the 2nd of his 3 straight blown games against the Brewers.
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Fun fact: The day the Marquette "Gold" decision came out, LaTroy was blowing the 2nd of his 3 straight blown games against the Brewers.
Ha! I remember that... I watched the announcement then hopped the bus to the ballpark. Wasn't it a bases loaded walk that won it for the Brewers in the ninth?
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Ha! I remember that... I watched the announcement then hopped the bus to the ballpark. Wasn't it a bases loaded walk that won it for the Brewers in the ninth?
One of the days was...yes :'(
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Ha! I remember that... I watched the announcement then hopped the bus to the ballpark. Wasn't it a bases loaded walk that won it for the Brewers in the ninth?
I remember that. A bunch of my friends skipped class that day to go to the baseball game. We loaded up my Pontiac safari station wagon full of food and got to the park as soon as the gates opened.
Gary Glover pitched, I thought we were screwed then...
I made fun of Fatty Helms as soon as he was put into the line up, and he homered.
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Chicago sportswriters even today are discussing the Cubs meltdown based on a 9-game winner Zombrano doing nothing more than last year and an aging Soriano adding no more value than last year as well. Soriano on the bench by the All-Star break? I do think the Brewers scrap into the wild-card as my optimism for a WS return continues in its 28th year. But i've not heard such pessimism for the Flubs going into the season.
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Chicago sportswriters even today are discussing the Cubs meltdown based on a 9-game winner Zombrano doing nothing more than last year and an aging Soriano adding no more value than last year as well. Soriano on the bench by the All-Star break? I do think the Brewers scrap into the wild-card as my optimism for a WS return continues in its 28th year. But i've not heard such pessimism for the Flubs going into the season.
I don't know if its pessimism as much as it is reality. You have a team, that even without injuries factored in, kind of scraped through last year and then in the offseason, did little to get better. Marlon Byrd is a marginal benefit and who knows if Xavier Nady will be healthy. Add in another year of age to Derrick Lee and Ramirez and who knows. All I can hope for is a slimmer and improved Soto, maybe rapid development of Starlin Castro and moving Theriot to 2nd, and then maybe another surprise. I am a HUGE Cubs fan and excited for summer to come back to Wrigley, but that being said, my expectations are tempered, and thats probably a good thing for the time being.
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Good outing today for Zambrano.
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I'm less concerned with Z's outing than I am Samardzjia. How did this kid make the squad?
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I'm less concerned with Z's outing than I am Samardzjia. How did this kid make the squad?
Notre Dame nepotism?
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I don't know if its pessimism as much as it is reality. You have a team, that even without injuries factored in, kind of scraped through last year and then in the offseason, did little to get better. Marlon Byrd is a marginal benefit and who knows if Xavier Nady will be healthy. Add in another year of age to Derrick Lee and Ramirez and who knows. All I can hope for is a slimmer and improved Soto, maybe rapid development of Starlin Castro and moving Theriot to 2nd, and then maybe another surprise. I am a HUGE Cubs fan and excited for summer to come back to Wrigley, but that being said, my expectations are tempered, and thats probably a good thing for the time being.
The worst thing that could happen with this Cubs team would be to stay within "striking distance" at the trade deadline. There is just no way this team makes the playoffs, and with the age on that roster, the Cubs need to get what they can for some of those older players.
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I'm less concerned with Z's outing than I am Samardzjia. How did this kid make the squad?
They made a big deal about drafting him and they paid him far more than a 3rd round pick was worth. Now they're stuck trying to defend the "hype" (for lack of a better term) that they created.
Big Z really wasn't as bad as his numbers show (though he definitely wasn't good). The Braves had 3 hits in the first inning that would have been outs if the Cubs had a SS and/or CF with any type of range. I wouldn't be surprised if Fukudome ends up back in CF with Byrd moving to RF at some point this season. Theriot is brutal at SS. I can't tell you how many times last season that balls got through for hits that most SS would have gotten to. Starlin Castro is going to be in Wrigley sooner rather than later. Theriot needs to be at 2B or, better yet, in another team's uniform.
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Brewers v Cards series starts tonight. I lucked out with some gifted 12th row seats. Anyone else headed down to Miller Park to make fun of the Card's fan's unnatural love for Poo-holes?
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Somebody told me there was a pissing match going on here, but I'm not seeing much of it here... just a lot of nonsensical whining about the "best" teams in the crappiest division in baseball.
Perhaps the actual match is going to take place at the Wrigley Troughs.
(http://www.mystickerspace.com/images/designs/calvin-pissing.jpg)
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As a Cubs fan I know that the pissing match starts and ends at Moises Alou's house.
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They made a big deal about drafting him and they paid him far more than a 3rd round pick was worth. Now they're stuck trying to defend the "hype" (for lack of a better term) that they created.
Big Z really wasn't as bad as his numbers show (though he definitely wasn't good). The Braves had 3 hits in the first inning that would have been outs if the Cubs had a SS and/or CF with any type of range. I wouldn't be surprised if Fukudome ends up back in CF with Byrd moving to RF at some point this season. Theriot is brutal at SS. I can't tell you how many times last season that balls got through for hits that most SS would have gotten to. Starlin Castro is going to be in Wrigley sooner rather than later. Theriot needs to be at 2B or, better yet, in another team's uniform.
Samardzija was actually drafted int he 5th round and yes they gave him way too much money for a 5th rounder.
Yes, some of those hits were bloops that should have been gotten to, but you are completely false in your assumption that Fukudome will be moved back to CF, Byrd is a better CF and this allows Fukudome to go back to RF where his defense is better. The signing of Byrd improved the CF defense and allowed Fukudome to go back to his natural position , thus making our outfield D significantly better this year compared to 2009.
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As a Cubs fan I know that the pissing match starts and ends at Moises Alou's house.
+100. Awesome.
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Brewers v Cards series starts tonight. I lucked out with some gifted 12th row seats. Anyone else headed down to Miller Park to make fun of the Card's fan's unnatural love for Poo-holes?
9th row, bitch!
I lucked into some tickets as well. Trying to figure out which team to hate less...
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Samardzija was actually drafted int he 5th round and yes they gave him way too much money for a 5th rounder.
Yes, some of those hits were bloops that should have been gotten to, but you are completely false in your assumption that Fukudome will be moved back to CF, Byrd is a better CF and this allows Fukudome to go back to RF where his defense is better. The signing of Byrd improved the CF defense and allowed Fukudome to go back to his natural position , thus making our outfield D significantly better this year compared to 2009.
The Cubs always hype their draft picks, unfortunately. The Cubs draft picks generally get traded away before they make the big leagues or they never pan out. I would like to see the Cubs farm system become stronger, it has been weak for a good while now.
I agree that Castro should come up as well, but I want to see Colvin play more even if he moves around in the outfield just to get him so pt.
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Samardzija was actually drafted int he 5th round and yes they gave him way too much money for a 5th rounder.
I was under the impression that they gave him a bunch of money so he would choose baseball over football, trying to woo him away from the NFL. Not that I agree with that decision (never have been a fan), but that would explain the overpay.
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Samardzija was actually drafted int he 5th round and yes they gave him way too much money for a 5th rounder.
Yes, some of those hits were bloops that should have been gotten to, but you are completely false in your assumption that Fukudome will be moved back to CF, Byrd is a better CF and this allows Fukudome to go back to RF where his defense is better. The signing of Byrd improved the CF defense and allowed Fukudome to go back to his natural position , thus making our outfield D significantly better this year compared to 2009.
Thanks. I first thought it was the 5th round but that seemed way too late to give him the kind of money he got.
It wasn't an assumption, I said I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. Byrd just doesn't have much range for a CF. The outfield D might be better, but it was brutal last year so that's not saying much. Soriano and Bradley should both be primarily DHs and Fukudome was playing out of position, though he's not a bad CF. This year they still have a DH in left, but moved Fukudome back to right and have a below average CF. They upgraded the OF but it's still one of the weakest ones in the NL from a defensive perspective.
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9th row, bitch!
I lucked into some tickets as well. Trying to figure out which team to hate less...
Hate the Brewers less. The Cardinals and the Cubs have been back and forth as the the Central Champs since 2001. There's no reason to hate the Brewers more than the Cards until we get a little stronger.
Plus the Cards wear UW@Madison colors. I, personally, find it easy to hate red :)
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Hate the Brewers less. The Cardinals and the Cubs have been back and forth as the the Central Champs since 2001. There's no reason to hate the Brewers more than the Cards until we get a little stronger.
Plus the Cards wear UW@Madison colors. I, personally, find it easy to hate red :)
Alright, you sold me.
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Yes, I did come up that line myself. Thank you. As a life-long Cubs fan you have to develop a sense of humor or you'll lose your mind.
I looked into it and I stand corrected on the Brewers "young guys." Escobar and Gomez are young but McGehee (a Cubs cast-off) and Kottaras aren't as young as I had originally thought. Perhaps I should have replaced "young" with "inexprienced."
You have zero knowledge of the Brewers farm system. That is all.
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As much as it pains me, I don't think the Brewers are capable of much more than what they did last year. Even if Randy Wolf and (one of my favorites) Doug Davis helps to shore up the pitching staff, that offense is far from balanced. Braun and Prince are unbelievable, but the Crew is kinda counting on a healthy Rickie Weeks, a non-useless Carlos Gomez, an improvement year for Corey Hart, Casey McGehee to be the real thing, and Escobar to provide consistent hitting in his rookie year to balance out that lineup. Too many contingencies for a team trying to make the playoffs, IMO.
so in order to improve ones offense, they must make every position better than last year? They lost Cameron from last year (.260 BA) and Hardy (.225 BA).
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They traded Hardy for Gomez who has the defense of Cameron, and they have Escobar up for Hardy (which was the plan for a while).
Escobar is far better than Hardy on defense and more of an OBP guy than Hardy. Loss of some power, but Hardy was flat bad last year.
Gomez is a downgrade at CF offensively, but they save a TON of money and he could develop into a decent hitter. Remember he isn't some joker, he was a highly regarded prospect at one time.
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The end of that Reds vs. Cubs game was some awful baseball. That relief pitcher that pitched the 8th for the Cubs was AWFUL. Starts off the inning with 2 walks...never a good thing. Then a perfect bunt by the Reds, and then a dinger. Top 9 Lee ripped that ball, but then the Reds did everything they could to hand that game back to the Cubs. Two straight awful errors on the left side of the infield to load up the bases. Of course Soriano ends it for them, though.
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The end of that Reds vs. Cubs game was some awful baseball. That relief pitcher that pitched the 8th for the Cubs was AWFUL. Starts off the inning with 2 walks...never a good thing. Then a perfect bunt by the Reds, and then a dinger. Top 9 Lee ripped that ball, but then the Reds did everything they could to hand that game back to the Cubs. Two straight awful errors on the left side of the infield to load up the bases. Of course Soriano ends it for them, though.
Two things: 1) As bad as Caridad looked tonight, he is going to be a damn good pitcher; 2) Soriano didn't end the game - Chad Tracy did.
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You have zero knowledge of the Brewers farm system. That is all.
I already admitted to being wrong. Thanks for being an a-hole though. That is all.
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My Chicago roommate is watching the Cubs and they were showing a guy with a mullet, so their commentators were ripping on this guy. "Joe Dirt at the ball game today. If you can't grow it in the front, grow it in the back." Funny stuff, but it's somewhat classless. The dude's just sitting watching the game. Let him be. If he's streaking across the field then it's a different story, but come on, let him enjoy his day.
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My Chicago roommate is watching the Cubs and they were showing a guy with a mullet, so their commentators were ripping on this guy. "Joe Dirt at the ball game today. If you can't grow it in the front, grow it in the back." Funny stuff, but it's somewhat classless. The dude's just sitting watching the game. Let him be. If he's streaking across the field then it's a different story, but come on, let him enjoy his day.
How did the Cubs broadcasters ripping on the guy affect his ability to watch the game or enjoy his day? I realize you are a Brewers fan, but this is a lame reason to complain about the Cubs. Meanwhile, I hope the Brewers can win today. I hate the Cards.
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How did the Cubs broadcasters ripping on the guy affect his ability to watch the game or enjoy his day? I realize you are a Brewers fan, but this is a lame reason to complain about the Cubs. Meanwhile, I hope the Brewers can win today. I hate the Cards.
I'm just saying I don't think it's really necessary to pick a guy out in a crowd and essentially call him white trash. I'd agree if a Cubs fan heard the Brewers broadcasters doing so and said it was inappropriate. I just don't see why it was necessary at all for them to do that. Like I said, it's one thing if it's a belligerently drunk person streaking across the field (or throwing a beer at a player) to pick him out and rip on them. If it's just some guy sitting in the stands enjoying a baseball game I don't really understand the point or necessity, regardless of what team's broadcaster is doing it. It would kind of suck for him if a friend of his watched the game and told him he was on TV, only to hear it was so that he could be called Joe Dirt for his mullet.
I, too, hope the Brewers can win today, but with Carpenter on the mound, I am not very optimistic. After Stavinoa golfed one out of the park from his knees on Friday when they were down to their last strike, I figured it would be a sweep. The Brewers ALWAYS get owned by pitchers they have not seen before (it was that guy's 2nd MLB start ever yesterday), and then Carpenter is Carpenter.
I'm already just hoping for a shot at the Wild Card. I think it would take MORE THAN one significant injury for the Cardinals not to win the division (and as much as I can't stand the Cardinals, I don't like seeing teams win divisions/games because of an injury to a player on another team).
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The Brewers ALWAYS get owned by pitchers they have not seen before (it was that guy's 2nd MLB start ever yesterday), and then Carpenter is Carpenter.
You realize that every team says this? And it's never really true?
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You realize that every team says this? And it's never really true?
Yeah I know everyone says that, but I honestly can't remember the last time the Brewer's knocked around a rookie pitcher (or even got a win against 1) making one of his first 4 or 5 starts ever.
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Yeah I know everyone says that, but I honestly can't remember the last time the Brewer's knocked around a rookie pitcher (or even got a win against 1) making one of his first 4 or 5 starts ever.
This was a hot topics last year in Chicago because Sox fans were complaining a ton. I believe it was the Red Sox who lost to pitchers they had ever seen before the most, and I want to say the percentage was only 32-35%
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Five years left on Soriano's contract...That thing seems to be getting longer instead of shorter. Almost making Barry Zito and Vernon Wells look like good deals.
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so after watching that great game tonight, I really wish I were able to catch Ueck's call of the McGehee homer at the very least. does anyone know of a site or anything where I would be able to go back and listen to it?
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so after watching that great game tonight, I really wish I were able to catch Ueck's call of the McGehee homer at the very least. does anyone know of a site or anything where I would be able to go back and listen to it?
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/56616762.html
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absolutely perfect. thanks a ton. Ueck might be the best cure for a little homesickness.
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My Chicago roommate is watching the Cubs and they were showing a guy with a mullet, so their commentators were ripping on this guy. "Joe Dirt at the ball game today. If you can't grow it in the front, grow it in the back." Funny stuff, but it's somewhat classless. The dude's just sitting watching the game. Let him be. If he's streaking across the field then it's a different story, but come on, let him enjoy his day.
Right or wrong, it is the job of the entire TV crew (producer, cameramen, broadcasters, etc.) to give the audience what they want. Many, but not all, of Cubs fans are "entertained" by such things as mullets and 19-year olds in bikinis more so than any other fan base in baseball - showing more of this stuff during a game leads to higher ratings. This isn't a cut against the Northsiders, it's simply a marketing strategy to increase revenue.
You can draw your own inference from this, but I know a lot of Cub fans who couldn't care less about how many Trixies are in the crowd that day; however, there are plenty of other fans that do.
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Fun fact: The day the Marquette "Gold" decision came out, LaTroy was blowing the 2nd of his 3 straight blown games against the Brewers.
As a Chicago fan I was also at that game. However it was Roberto Novoa, not LaTroy Hawkins that blew the game.
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Yeah I know everyone says that, but I honestly can't remember the last time the Brewer's knocked around a rookie pitcher (or even got a win against 1) making one of his first 4 or 5 starts ever.
Weren't the Brewers like 0-6 last year in games against a pitcher making his major league debut? It was something ridiculous like that.
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As a Chicago fan I was also at that game. However it was Roberto Novoa, not LaTroy Hawkins that blew the game.
Now that I think about it more you're right! Thanks for the correction!
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Game 1 : Novoa sucks in 8th
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505030ML4 (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505030ML4)
Game 2 : Novoa blows game in 9th
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505040ML4 (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505040ML4)
Game 3 : Hawkins blows game in 9th
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505050ML4 (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200505050ML4)
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Weren't the Brewers like 0-6 last year in games against a pitcher making his major league debut? It was something ridiculous like that.
That's certainly what it feels like. I honestly don't remember us winning any. But as ptm pointed out, many teams claim such, and it's often not nearly as bad as it seems. But in the past year or two the Brewers have seemed awful.
Right or wrong, it is the job of the entire TV crew (producer, cameramen, broadcasters, etc.) to give the audience what they want. Many, but not all, of Cubs fans are "entertained" by such things as mullets and 19-year olds in bikinis more so than any other fan base in baseball - showing more of this stuff during a game leads to higher ratings. This isn't a cut against the Northsiders, it's simply a marketing strategy to increase revenue.
You can draw your own inference from this, but I know a lot of Cub fans who couldn't care less about how many Trixies are in the crowd that day; however, there are plenty of other fans that do.
Sounds like a fair assessment. I'm just not a big fan of it personally. It's funny, but the guy was not doing anything wrong and I just don't see the point of singling out somebody who's just catching a baseball game on a nice day.
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Hawkins?
You mean the guy that sucked on the cubs? the giants? the yankees? and the astros?
I wouldn't put too much stock into him.
Hawkins? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Hawkins? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy....LaTroy, your table is ready.
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I'm amazed Macha didn't have a lefty (or anyone else) warming up at all that inning. He could have brought him in to face Fukudome who hit the game winning single.
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I'm amazed Macha didn't have a lefty (or anyone else) warming up at all that inning. He could have brought him in to face Fukudome who hit the game winning single.
If he would have brought in a lefty, I have to think D. Lee would have gotten that at bat (then move Nady from 1B to RF for top of 9).
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I'm amazed Macha didn't have a lefty (or anyone else) warming up at all that inning. He could have brought him in to face Fukudome who hit the game winning single.
No kidding. It'd be nice if the Brewers had a manager who could get a clue as to when a pitcher doesn't have it. Top 2 of the inning get out. After a single and 2 walks you have to have somebody ready to come in. Then after a single you HAVE to go get him. And he STILL let him in after another single. And it's not like he's trying to save the bullpen. Bush went deep into the game and it's the bottom of the 8th. Unbelievable.
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Very funny.
Does Alfonso Soriano have any options left?
I’m serious. The Cubs’ best hope of getting anything close to their money’s worth for the remaining five years and $90 million left on Soriano’s contract is to send him to the minor leagues and teach him how to play baseball.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/2162672,chicago-cubs-alfonso-soriano-15.article
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Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy....LaTroy, your table is ready.
Hawkins could never handle the pressure at Wrigley?
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That's how it goes with set-up guys. Very few people remember anything but your blow-ups as there aren't many tangible stats to measure you by, unlike closers (you don't hear casual baseball fans mention how many holds a guys has). But, the fact of the matter is that Hawkins has been a very good bullpen guy for a lot of years and still looks to have good life in his fastball and a few more miles on his arm left. The Brewers bullpen still looks to be very solid despite a few early season hiccups.
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Very few people remember anything but your blow-ups as there aren't many tangible stats to measure you by
Holds
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Very few people remember anything but your blow-ups as there aren't many tangible stats to measure you by...
Holds
AL Record for Most Holds in a Season by a RHP: LaTroy Hawkins
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I find this topic appalling. Why would ANYONE try to defend LaTroy Hawkins?
Career ERA: 4.29
Career WHIP: 1.438
Just because the Brewers rented his crappy arm for the season, doesn't mean you have to slooge over his Topps card and try to make him sounds serviceable.
AL Record for Most Holds in a Season by a RHP: LaTroy Hawkins
Can I get some proof on this? Not calling you out, but holds hasn't been recorded all that long.
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AL Record for Most Holds in a Season by a RHP: LaTroy Hawkins
Incorrect. Another ex-Cub, Tom Gordon, holds the record with 36 for the Yankees in 2004. LaTroy's career high is 28, set in 2003 (and he actually finished behind Brendan Donnelly for most holds by a RHP in the AL that season).
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?statType=2&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=4&sortByStat=HLD&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=4 (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?statType=2&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=4&sortByStat=HLD&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=4)
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Holds
(you don't hear casual baseball fans mention how many holds a guys has)
I find this topic appalling. Why would ANYONE try to defend LaTroy Hawkins?
Career ERA: 4.29
Career WHIP: 1.438
Just because the Brewers rented his crappy arm for the season, doesn't mean you have to slooge over his Topps card and try to make him sounds serviceable.
Can I get some proof on this? Not calling you out, but holds hasn't been recorded all that long.
Career ERA+
Hawkins - 104
Dempster - 99
Samardzija - 80
Gorzelanny - 91
Silva - 93
Marshall - 92
Grabow - 106
Are the Cubs currently trying to replace 75% of their pitching staff, because it is unfathomable for a team as great as the Cubs to have a bunch of pitchers that are this appallling.
Nobody said Hawkins is an all-star, just that he's a pretty solid set-up guy; which he is. To say otherwise, would be innaccurate.
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Career ERA+
Hawkins - 104
Dempster - 99
Samardzija - 80
Gorzelanny - 91
Silva - 93
Marshall - 92
Grabow - 106
Are the Cubs currently trying to replace 75% of their pitching staff, because it is unfathomable for a team as great as the Cubs to have a bunch of pitchers that are this appallling.
What does LaTroy Hawkins' current pitching ability have to do with the Cubs' 2010 pitching staff?
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So the Brewers signed Hawkins for two years? :P
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So the Brewers signed Hawkins for two years? :P
Alfonso Soriano's 8 year contract is superb.
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Despite the early nightmare, I still think the Brewers bullpen, at least in the late innings, will end up being pretty solid. Of course, the starting pitching certainly stands a good chance of ravaging the relief corp with consistent 4.2 inning outings.
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Alfonso Soriano's 8 year contract is superb.
Contract is just awful now, but Cubs did make the playoffs two years in a row with his help. That's the problem with the must win now approach to spending lots of cash. The money runs out at some time.
Maybe Soriano can blow leads out of the bullpen instead. ;D
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Baseball IMO more than most sports requires constant building from the draft and the minor leagues. You can sign free agents but the majority
of your players should come from your minor league system, unless your the Yankees, BoSox, etc (See Tampa Bay).
There will always be teams that give players big contracts after one or two years, because baseball players tend to be guilty of playing harder
during their contract year and getting a payday after one good year (see Adrian Beltre). Yet bullpen's tend to shift on a year by year basis
because of bullpen pitcher inconsistency. As a Cubs fan I was happy they got Hawkins, and he didn't pan out. Yet look at most any pitcher
that comes out of the bullpen that has been in the league for 10 or so years and see how many teams he has been on.
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Contract is just awful now, but Cubs did make the playoffs two years in a row with his help.
THe contract was awful whne they signed it. There was no reason to give him 8 years/
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THe contract was awful when they signed it. There was no reason to give him 8 years/
If the Cubs had won the world series the fans wouldn't care and management would do it again. If he averages 30+ homers and 100 rbi's the fans wouldn't care. The ifs have not happened and the contract will continue to put limitations on making changes to the cubs roster. Looking at the contract in the past, present, and likely future it appears a big gamble that did not pay off, but as a fan I can respect a team for going after a big time free agent trying to win the series. (Except the yankees of course. ;)) It's just too convenient for me to say that contract was awful from the beginning 3-4 years later.
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Baseball IMO more than most sports requires constant building from the draft and the minor leagues. You can sign free agents but the majority of your players should come from your minor league system, unless your the Yankees, BoSox, etc (See Tampa Bay).
Agreed. The catch-22 though, is that nothing gets GMs fired quite like prospects with a ton of potential.
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Red Sox have one of the best farm systems in baseball.
-Lester
-Pedroia
-Youklis
-Papelbon
-Ellsbury
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Incorrect. Another ex-Cub, Tom Gordon, holds the record with 36 for the Yankees in 2004. LaTroy's career high is 28, set in 2003 (and he actually finished behind Brendan Donnelly for most holds by a RHP in the AL that season).
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?statType=2&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=4&sortByStat=HLD&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=4 (http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/leaders.jsp?statType=2&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=4&sortByStat=HLD&baseballScope=AL&timeSubFrame=4)
My bad... I did a Google search and the first link returned was:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/hold_records.shtml
Evidently, that page was updated last in 2003. I didn't notice it that until I went back. Nevertheless, it doesn't diminish the irony that LaTroy was a league leader in holds at one point in time.
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This was a hot topics last year in Chicago because Sox fans were complaining a ton.
Let the complaining begin again. So far this year......
"Toronto's Ricky Romero, Cleveland's Mitch Talbot and Tampa's Wade Davis have allowed three runs on nine hits in 23 innings in their first games against the Sox."
But then again they cannot hit any pitching so far this year.
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Let the complaining begin again. So far this year......
"Toronto's Ricky Romero, Cleveland's Mitch Talbot and Tampa's Wade Davis have allowed three runs on nine hits in 23 innings in their first games against the Sox."
But then again they cannot hit any pitching so far this year.
Nice!
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Great, the Brewers put up 20 runs today. I would not be surprised to see them not score a run this weekend.
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The Pirates are perennial doormants but anytime a team wins a 3 games series with a combined score of 36-1, they have to feel pretty decent about themselves. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Crew lose or even get swept this weekend, as their lineup and pitching is still very inconsistent.
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Zambrano to the bullpen? Really?!
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Great, the Brewers put up 20 runs today. I would not be surprised to see them not score a run this weekend.
Can't say I didn't call this. Unbelievable. The Brewers are always the same. 21 straight years of the same stuff. Go off for a series and you can be sure a sweep is coming in the next one.
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Zambrano to the bullpen? Really?!
Followed quickly by Jeff Suppan
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Can't say I didn't call this. Unbelievable. The Brewers are always the same. 21 straight years of the same stuff. Go off for a series and you can be sure a sweep is coming in the next one.
A bunch of brewer fans I know were worried about this...and it came true. From what i gathered this weekend, the brewers pitching all around is hurting! They will show a glimpse of brilliance but other than that...yuck!
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After a Cubs sweep at Wrigley North, the lack of activity on this thread really speaks volumes about how little Cubs fans care about this alledged rivalry with the Brewers.
(Yes, I realize that I'm a Cubs fan on this thread pointing out that no Cubs fans are on this thread)
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Or just the fact that most Brewers and Cubs fans pretty much realize that both of these teams are pretty long shots for the playoffs (don't mean to speak for the Cubs fans, or for all Brewers fans, but that's the feeling I've gotten from both fan bases). Andlets be honest, it's early and both teams have been inconsistent. The Cubs get swept by the Astros (after they had won just 1 game to that point in the season), the Brewers win 4 straight games by 8+ runs (the last 1 a 20-0 win) and then the tables turn for both teams. Cubs sweep. I'd expect more inconsistency from both teams.
Plus, with thr Cubs getting Suppan, Bush, and Davis is anybody really surprised the Cubs got the sweep? As I showed before, I sure wasn't.
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The Cubs get swept by the Astros (after they had won just 1 game to that point in the season),
The Cubs actually lost 2 of 3, they weren't swept and the Astros had 2 wins before that series. Eithwer way, your point is correct, both teams are highly inconsistent thus far.
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Or just the fact that most Brewers and Cubs fans pretty much realize that both of these teams are pretty long shots for the playoffs (don't mean to speak for the Cubs fans, or for all Brewers fans, but that's the feeling I've gotten from both fan bases). Andlets be honest, it's early and both teams have been inconsistent. The Cubs get swept by the Astros (after they had won just 1 game to that point in the season), the Brewers win 4 straight games by 8+ runs (the last 1 a 20-0 win) and then the tables turn for both teams. Cubs sweep. I'd expect more inconsistency from both teams.
Plus, with thr Cubs getting Suppan, Bush, and Davis is anybody really surprised the Cubs got the sweep? As I showed before, I sure wasn't.
You seem to be realistic about the Brewers this season and I agree with you that neither fanbase views their team as a serious contender, but if both teams continue to play mediocre baseball and the Brewers sweep the Cubs at Wrigley, do you think there would be a collective shrug from Brewers fans? I highly doubt it.
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You seem to be realistic about the Brewers this season and I agree with you that neither fanbase views their team as a serious contender, but if both teams continue to play mediocre baseball and the Brewers sweep the Cubs at Wrigley, do you think there would be a collective shrug from Brewers fans? I highly doubt it.
Agreed...especially how absolutely one-sided the series was...if the shoe was on the other foot there would've been a lot more activity around here...Cubs fans know who our primary rivals are but, without question, the Brewers have been added to the list within the last several years due to their improvement.
It's way too early to say either team is not a contender....a lot of variables but with the Brewers lineup and if the Cubs starting pitching continues both teams could stay in the picture.
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It's been awhile since I've posted this:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/Raiffe/1cubs_sweep.gif)
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It's been awhile since I've posted this:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/Raiffe/1cubs_sweep.gif)
Oh I miss that frackin' picture at the bottom of your signature, every time you posted it gave me a small seizure.
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This will make the Fielder free agency even more exciting:
Phillies just signed Howard to 5 year/$125M deal. This takes Howard off the free agent market (he was scheduled to hit FA at the same time as Fielder) and sets a financial precedent Boras will go after.
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maybe this should be for another thread, but i really hope the brewers dont go and try to commit that type of money to Prince. nothing against Prince, but selling time might be rapidly approaching.
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i really hope the brewers dont go and try to commit that type of money to Prince.
That would be a bargain. If the Brewers could get Prince to sign a 5/$125M contract I assure you they would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, that contract would probably be about 3 years and $75M short for Prince and his agent. I would wholeheartedly support the 5/125. I am not as hot about anything significantly more than that. He has hall of fame talent, but he is obviously a big guy that most definitely could be an injury risk as he gets older. I will be very surprised if he signs anything shorter than 7-8 years, which almost assuredly means it won't be with the Brewers.
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That would be a bargain. If the Brewers could get Prince to sign a 5/$125M contract I assure you they would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, that contract would probably be about 3 years and $75M short for Prince and his agent. I would wholeheartedly support the 5/125. I am not as hot about anything significantly more than that. He has hall of fame talent, but he is obviously a big guy that most definitely could be an injury risk as he gets older. I will be very surprised if he signs anything shorter than 7-8 years, which almost assuredly means it won't be with the Brewers.
Yeah, I should have been specific when I said something for Boras to shoot for (not saying you misinterpreted, just using the opportunity to clarify). I didn't mean $125M - I agree, the Brewers would be in play if that were it. I was more referencing the $25M/year that Boras will seek and at 7-8 years I have to believe the Brewers will not pull the trigger.
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my bad too, i guess i never really even considered the years on that kind of deal. 5 years would be nice, but thats half of what I've been hearing Prince is likely after. once you get north of 5, I couldn't agree more that there are just too many longevity questions to commit that long. especially for a team without money to waste like the crew, to commit that long for that much money is something i would be skeptical of for even a player that carried less risk.
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Don't forget that Howard is 31, 5 years older than Prince. He probably can't command as many years as Prince is going to be able to.
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That would be a bargain. If the Brewers could get Prince to sign a 5/$125M contract I assure you they would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, that contract would probably be about 3 years and $75M short for Prince and his agent. I would wholeheartedly support the 5/125. I am not as hot about anything significantly more than that. He has hall of fame talent, but he is obviously a big guy that most definitely could be an injury risk as he gets older. I will be very surprised if he signs anything shorter than 7-8 years, which almost assuredly means it won't be with the Brewers.
What about 3 yrs. at 80 or 85? Keeping the Brewers relevant with him and Braun, and then giving Prince still the opportunity to get a big old payday at age 28 or so.
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Again, the Brewers would sign on for that as quickly as they possibly could. If Prince did that however when he could easily get an 8+ year deal, I would suggest that his agent should be fired, if not shot. He is young enough that he will still probably get another pretty decent size contract after this first one runs out. Plus he has that $200M in the bank. I see no reason for him to take $80M, when he can easily guarantee 2-3 times that much.
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Here is the thing about Prince.
Where the hell else is he going to go play that will pay him that much money for that much time?
He doesn't WANT to DH, but I'm sure he could be paid not to play 1st base.
A lot of teams have good 1st basemen locked up for solid periods of time.
On a side note, I wonder what the score of a Cubs/Pirates game would be... 70-0?
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Here is the thing about Prince.
Where the hell else is he going to go play that will pay him that much money for that much time?
He doesn't WANT to DH, but I'm sure he could be paid not to play 1st base.
A lot of teams have good 1st basemen locked up for solid periods of time.
Good question, and you are right, not a lot of teams willing shell that kind of kwan for Prince.
The teams with a 1st Base need and the $ to do it include: Bo Sox*, Mets, White Sox, Cubs, & Dodgers.
I guess first one that gives a # that starts with a 2 wins.
*Currently Youklis is there, but he can play third or the OF if necessary. I feel like an AL team is the right fit because you could always hide as a DH if need be.
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This doesn't bode well for the Brewers. If the Brewers commit $25M to one guy and he gets hurt and/or struggles, it will be hard for them to compete without unloading that contract. Adrian Gonzalez and Albert Pujols are both looking for new contracts as well and will likely get similar deals to Howard. Prince is still Milwaukee's property until after 2011 and he's the type of guy who might be more valuable trading in order to get a boatload of prospects from someone like the Red Sox (who have a stud 1B prospect in Lars Anderson). Seriously, with Fenway's RF fence being about 300 feet away, Prince could hit 65 HRs playing there 81 times a season.
If he leaves Milwaukee via free agency, I could actually see him going to a place like Seattle. They have money and it's a relaxed, low-key city that's out of the MLB spotlight. The M's are definitely in need of a big stick in that line-up and Milton Bradley's terrible deal comes off the books after 2011 thus freeing up some money.
By the way, how quickly would Brewer fans turn on Prince if he signed with the Cubs? Would he become Public Enemy #1 before or after the ink dries on the contract?
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Here is the thing about Prince.
Where the hell else is he going to go play that will pay him that much money for that much time?
He doesn't WANT to DH, but I'm sure he could be paid not to play 1st base.
A lot of teams have good 1st basemen locked up for solid periods of time.
On a side note, I wonder what the score of a Cubs/Pirates game would be... 70-0?
No kidding, another football score against the Pirates...when do they get contracted?
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I was about to ask if Wells would get yanked before recording an out, but I was to late.
0.0 IP 6 hits 5 runs. Yikes.
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I was about to ask if Wells would get yanked before recording an out, but I was to late.
0.0 IP 6 hits 5 runs. Yikes.
And then the Cubs put on Fukadome and Theriot with no outs only to follow it up with a strike em out throw em out DP as Lee watches the 3rd strike go by on a hit and run...sigh
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Sayonara, Jeff Suppan!
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!
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Sayonara, Jeff Suppan!
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!
Now if we could just do the same to Ken Macha. I'm seriously beginning to think he's worse than Ned Yost, and I never imagined that could be possible. He's just as bad at handling his pitchers and what is he doing with the lineup? He has to figure out where he wants to bat Fielder, Braun, and McGehee in the lineup and be consistent with it. You can't move your 3 best hitters around in the lineup every game. In the 3 game series against St. Louis those 3 hit in 3 different spots in the lineup. That's ridiculous to do in June against the division leader. Figure out where you want them and let them get settled in. Not to mention, offense is about the last of our problems, so I'm not sure why he feels the need to change the lineup around so much.
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Now if we could just do the same to Ken Macha. I'm seriously beginning to think he's worse than Ned Yost, and I never imagined that could be possible. He's just as bad at handling his pitchers and what is he doing with the lineup? He has to figure out where he wants to bat Fielder, Braun, and McGehee in the lineup and be consistent with it. You can't move your 3 best hitters around in the lineup every game. In the 3 game series against St. Louis those 3 hit in 3 different spots in the lineup. That's ridiculous to do in June against the division leader. Figure out where you want them and let them get settled in. Not to mention, offense is about the last of our problems, so I'm not sure why he feels the need to change the lineup around so much.
Know what I liked...bringing in RH specialist Dave Bush to get a strikeout last night...
After he let Parra throw about 15 more balls than he should have...
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Now if we could just do the same to Ken Macha. I'm seriously beginning to think he's worse than Ned Yost, and I never imagined that could be possible. He's just as bad at handling his pitchers and what is he doing with the lineup? He has to figure out where he wants to bat Fielder, Braun, and McGehee in the lineup and be consistent with it. You can't move your 3 best hitters around in the lineup every game. In the 3 game series against St. Louis those 3 hit in 3 different spots in the lineup. That's ridiculous to do in June against the division leader. Figure out where you want them and let them get settled in. Not to mention, offense is about the last of our problems, so I'm not sure why he feels the need to change the lineup around so much.
Trey Hillman and Dave Trembley are available. Wait a couple months and Lou Piniella will probably be on that list as well.
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Just thought everyone should know the pathetic Cubs start a series with the pathetic Brewers tonight. This is an important series as it should help determine which team starts selling off players first.
I know the Brewers are going nowhere, but if I were a Cub fan, I would hope to get swept, so Jim Hendry will trade Carlos Silva as soon as possible, so the impending collapse becomes somebody else's problem. If he could turn the Milton Bradley disaster into a decent prospect, that would be a huge win.
As a Brewer fan, I am hoping they get swept, while Prince Fielder hits about 5 HR's so they pull the trigger on trading him to get back as much as possible. I love Prince but there is just no way he is here in 2012, so its time to get while the gettin' is good.
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Just thought everyone should know the pathetic Cubs start a series with the pathetic Brewers tonight. This is an important series as it should help determine which team starts selling off players first.
I know the Brewers are going nowhere, but if I were a Cub fan, I would hope to get swept, so Jim Hendry will trade Carlos Silva as soon as possible, so the impending collapse becomes somebody else's problem. If he could turn the Milton Bradley disaster into a decent prospect, that would be a huge win.
As a Brewer fan, I am hoping they get swept, while Prince Fielder hits about 5 HR's so they pull the trigger on trading him to get back as much as possible. I love Prince but there is just no way he is here in 2012, so its time to get while the gettin' is good.
Oddly valid points about hoping to get swept.
The Brewers are actually in a better position going forward in terms of trade bait. They should be able to get some decent prospects if they ship out Fielder. The Cubs, on the other hand, seemed to think they were built to win this season and waited too long to sell off parts and receive much value. I understand that no-trade clauses would have had to be waved in a couple cases but Ramirez, Lee, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Soriano and Theriot should have been shopped this offseason because it was clear that this team was going to be mediocre, at best, with those guys. I realize Soriano and Zambrano are more or less unmoveable, but those other guys had some value (Lilly's injury not withstanding) and could have gotten the team at least some mid-level prospects.
As they say, it's always better to trade a player a year too soon than wait a year too long. Unfortunately for Cubs fans, their team waited too long.
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The Brewers come from behind against Marmol and win it on a walk-off hit, yet no Brewers fans even mention it on here?!? Has the bandwagon emptied that quickly or do the real Brewers fans understand that both teams are going no where? I guess it's probably both.
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The Brewers come from behind against Marmol and win it on a walk-off hit, yet no Brewers fans even mention it on here?!? Has the bandwagon emptied that quickly or do the real Brewers fans understand that both teams are going no where? I guess it's probably both.
Axford's mustache is about the only thing that gets me excited about this team...
The walk-off was nice, though. And holy crap, I may have to stop hating Cory Hart...
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The Brewers come from behind against Marmol and win it on a walk-off hit, yet no Brewers fans even mention it on here?!? Has the bandwagon emptied that quickly or do the real Brewers fans understand that both teams are going no where? I guess it's probably both.
That was a very good game last night....good enough to make me watch tonight. However, it also displayed pretty clearly just how bad these teams are. Good starting pitching from both teams, but one bullpen is worse than the next, with both teams more reliable guys coughing it up in the 9th inning. Both teams are going nowhere, and these games are nothing but an exercise in futility.
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The Brewers come from behind against Marmol and win it on a walk-off hit, yet no Brewers fans even mention it on here?!? Has the bandwagon emptied that quickly or do the real Brewers fans understand that both teams are going no where? I guess it's probably both.
Cubs fans have the luxury of the Blackhawks being the focus of their attention.
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I'm excited about tonights game too.......ESPN broadcast!
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Cubs fans have the luxury of the Blackhawks being the focus of their attention.
There's still room left on that bandwagon?
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Just realize that the Brewers are going nowhere. To start the season I figured we were a .500 team last year and I figured Wolf and Davis would improve our pitching, but the pitching has just gotten worse. Never thought that'd be possible. Is it bad when you start a season with your AAA team having a better bullpen than your MLB team? I think the Brewers bullpen is actually really strong now with Villanueva and Braddack (and soon Smith) setting it up for Axford (yeah he gave up a run last night but I think he's going to be really good). It's just too bad our starting pitching is awful.
I guess the way I look at it is when you have 1 player leading thr league in RBI and another leading the league in home runs to go along with 2 of the best hitters in the league and you're still 10 games under .500 you're probably not going anywhere unfortunately.
That said, it's always nice to beat the Cubs. Especially on a last at-bat, comeback win. If only it hurt the Cubs...really doesn't mean much though
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The Brewers come from behind against Marmol and win it on a walk-off hit, yet no Brewers fans even mention it on here?!? Has the bandwagon emptied that quickly or do the real Brewers fans understand that both teams are going no where? I guess it's probably both.
I do indeed understand that both teams are going nowhere.
I have to admit though, being at last night's game was a lot of fun. Maybe the best moment for the Crew all season. I think attendance last night was an indicator of how down these fanbases really are about the ball clubs right now.
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Also on the topic of trading Prince for pitching, we have to get a scout into the organization who knows what he's doing with pitching first. The Brewers have proven time and time again they have nobody in the organization with a sense of young pitching talent. I don't want to trade Prince for pitchers who may end up doing absolutely nothing.
Which reminds me of us trading Carlos Lee (when he was still raking) and Nelson Cruz(!) for Coco Corderro and Kevin Mench. Yikes
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Also on the topic of trading Prince for pitching, we have to get a scout into the organization who knows what he's doing with pitching first. The Brewers have proven time and time again they have nobody in the organization with a sense of young pitching talent. I don't want to trade Prince for pitchers who may end up doing absolutely nothing.
Which reminds me of us trading Carlos Lee (when he was still raking) and Nelson Cruz(!) for Coco Corderro and Kevin Mench. Yikes
19 of the 30 players the Brewers selected in draft so far have been pitchers. Theres no doubt they need to add pitching depth throughout the organization.
Onto your next point...go back to when they actually made the Carlos Lee trade and really think about it. Its easy to look at Nelson Cruz now and criticize it, but at the time of the trade, Cruz had done absolutely nothing to show that he would be a productive Major leaguer. At the time, he was considered to have reached his ceiling. In fact, it took him until the 2009 season (28 years of age) and 4 years after the trade, and hitting in a hitters park, to do anything of note.
As for Lee, he ended up signing a 6 year, 100 million contract with Houston...a contract they have regretted since the moment it was signed.
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There's still room left on that bandwagon?
You are an idiot. If you had any clue on how the Blackhawks organization was run up until about 2-3 years ago, you would understand why most Hawks fans disappeared until a year or so ago. Go Hawks!
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You are an idiot. If you had any clue on how the Blackhawks organization was run up until about 2-3 years ago, you would understand why most Hawks fans disappeared until a year or so ago. Go Hawks!
My intent was to touch a nerve, it's a pissing match thread...get over yourself.
/I do know the Hawks were basically dead last in attendance for the 2006 season
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Quote from: LancesOtherNut on Today at 11:04:14 AM
There's still room left on that bandwagon?
You are an idiot. If you had any clue on how the Blackhawks organization was run up until about 2-3 years ago, you would understand why most Hawks fans disappeared until a year or so ago. Go Hawks!
It's not a bandwagon....it's called being a fair weather fan.
If your a fan you follow your team through ups and downs...not just when its easy to follow them.
/Start the avalanche of hawks fans yelling about ownership, tv deals, blah blah blah.
Go Flyers
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It's not a bandwagon....it's called being a fair weather fan.
If your a fan you follow your team through ups and downs...not just when its easy to follow them.
Very true. Fair weather fandom is something Brewers fans know all about ;)
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You are an idiot. If you had any clue on how the Blackhawks organization was run up until about 2-3 years ago, you would understand why most Hawks fans disappeared until a year or so ago. Go Hawks!
Blah blah blah. Such is the life of a sports fan. The issue is getting people to ADMIT that they're no more than bandwagon Hawks fans after the events of the past two or three years. I'll happily admit I watched only a handful of Bucks games over the past 5-6 years until about midseason of this year through the playoff run. Without opening up the bandwagon, the Bucks would have had nothing to go on.
But Blackhawks fans? There's this pissy defensive resistance that has permeated campus in the past two years, people claiming they've been Blackhawks diehards all their lives, but only just became vocal or began wearing Hawks gear in 2008. Convenient.
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Blah blah blah. Such is the life of a sports fan. The issue is getting people to ADMIT that they're no more than bandwagon Hawks fans after the events of the past two or three years. I'll happily admit I watched only a handful of Bucks games over the past 5-6 years until about midseason of this year through the playoff run. Without opening up the bandwagon, the Bucks would have had nothing to go on.
But Blackhawks fans? There's this pissy defensive resistance that has permeated campus in the past two years, people claiming they've been Blackhawks diehards all their lives, but only just became vocal or began wearing Hawks gear in 2008. Convenient.
All the while talking about how cool that new Fratellis ringtone they just downloaded is...
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All the while talking about how cool that new Fratellis ringtone they just downloaded is...
Bandwagon Hawks fan here, the Fratellis suck and Chelsea Dagger sucks.
Anyways... I watched the Hawks a bit last year and more this year. If it makes me a bandwagon fan, so be it. But three years ago, you couldn't watch the Hawks on TV at all really, so I'm not sure how it works.
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I'll openly admit I joined the bandwagon a three years ago for a couple reasons.
First and foremost the death of Bill Wirtz allowed me to actually watch the games on tv which is huge because I live in Rockford.
Second, the Rockford Icehogs became affiliated with the Blackhawks a few years ago allowing me to see several of the current Blackhawks (Niemi, Versteeg, Byfuglien, etc...) play before they got called up.
The week Bill Wirtz died I went out and bought my white sweater. As bad as it sounds none of this happens if he doesn't die.
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It's not a bandwagon....it's called being a fair weather fan.
If your a fan you follow your team through ups and downs...not just when its easy to follow them.
/Start the avalanche of hawks fans yelling about ownership, tv deals, blah blah blah.
Go Flyers
Flyers suck and so does Chrissy Pronger. Enjoy us celebrating a cup on your home ice. Hopefully no one gets puked on tonight, stay classy Philly.
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Who cares if you a bandwagon, whether your a fan of the Blackhawks or not the NHL was good as $hit a couple years ago thanks to the lockout. Inject some young talent into the league and now look at how quickly it has rose as a sport, not just the Hawks.
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I'll openly admit I joined the bandwagon a three years ago for a couple reasons.
I wouldn't consider you a bandwagon fan.
Yes, people starting following the Hawks again after Bill Wirtz died, but that's because the organization finally realized, hey its 2007, not 1967, maybe our business model needs to be updated.
Back in '07, there was no bandwagon to join... The Hawks were still a bad team. Yes, they had some young talent, but they still missed the playoffs.
I would say that fans like TT that started to follow the Hawks in '07 came about because the first time in their lives the Hawks were an accessable and fan friendly organization.
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The week Bill Wirtz died I went out and bought my white sweater. As bad as it sounds none of this happens if he doesn't die.
Dan Hampton agrees....
"After crawling through the desert for so many years, now (the Blackhawks) are on the cusp of having the best team in the NHL," Hampton told us Tuesday. "They have captured the imagination in a way a lot of people never thought it would happen when the old man (Bill Wirtz) was running the bunch. It's a fairy tale."
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I became Hawks fan in the early 90s because Chris Chelios lived fairly close to me and went to my church. For a kid, that's all it takes (I guess it helped that they were pretty good at the time too). I was driven away by Bill Wirtz, a lack of coverage, and some pathetic teams over the next decade or so. I've come back to hockey and the Blackhawks in the last couple years. This begs the question...
Bandwagon or fair-weather?
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If they didn't televise Brewers games, before the last couple of years where they have contended...I wonder how many Brewers fans would be called fairweather?
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If they didn't televise Brewers games, before the last couple of years where they have contended...I wonder how many Brewers fans would be called fairweather?
The difference is attendance.
Miller Park had a lot to do with bringing up attendance.
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The difference is attendance.
Miller Park had a lot to do with bringing up attendance.
Yeah, in the first year. They averaged 34K or so a game and then the next 3 years attendance plummeted down to around 20K before resting in that 20-25K range, and now that the Brewers are good, its risen back up to a top 10 level. The new shiny effect of Miller Park brought attendance up, but it went right back down to previous levels. Don't give me metro area stats, thats as good of evidence for what you are trying to refute as any.
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Yeah, in the first year. They averaged 34K or so a game and then the next 3 years attendance plummeted down to around 20K before resting in that 20-25K range, and now that the Brewers are good, its risen back up to a top 10 level. The new shiny effect of Miller Park brought attendance up, but it went right back down to previous levels. Don't give me metro area stats, thats as good of evidence for what you are trying to refute as any.
I have said that winning matters more than anything, but the new stadium definitely helped a lot.
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I have said that winning matters more than anything, but the new stadium definitely helped a lot.
I agree, but then how is it so unfeasible that being able to see teams on TV can't jack up attendance? I get much more excited about going to Marquette games as the season progresses and you get a feel for the team and its players as opposed to the beginning of the season when you have no clue what you are going to get. Just sayin'
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Yeah, in the first year. They averaged 34K or so a game and then the next 3 years attendance plummeted down to around 20K before resting in that 20-25K range, and now that the Brewers are good, its risen back up to a top 10 level. The new shiny effect of Miller Park brought attendance up, but it went right back down to previous levels. Don't give me metro area stats, thats as good of evidence for what you are trying to refute as any.
I'm failing to see where the problem is here. Isn't this the case with most stadiums? They open up, draw huge numbers because everyone wants to see the shiny new toy, and then slowly level out. The Brewers always draw well through mid summer, and the combination of them falling out of contention and the dawn of football season brings the season averages down to about 25K... a reasonable expectation for what is probably an average or slightly above average baseball town.
It would be a bit different and more noteworthy if we were drawing 14K/game in 04, 05, and 06, and all of a sudden made a playoff push and packed Miller Park with 42K (self-proclaimed) lifelong, diehard Brewers fans. That would be Blackhawks worthy.
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It would be a bit different and more noteworthy if we were drawing 14K/game in 04, 05, and 06, and all of a sudden made a playoff push and packed Miller Park with 42K (self-proclaimed) lifelong, diehard Brewers fans. That would be Blackhawks worthy.
Again keep in mind the Blackhawks weren't on tv prior to three years ago. If the Brewers weren't on tv for that amount of time I'd be willing to bet you guys would be cheering for the Washington Brewers (Nationals).
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Again keep in mind the Blackhawks weren't on tv prior to three years ago. If the Brewers weren't on tv for that amount of time I'd be willing to bet you guys would be cheering for the Washington Brewers (Nationals).
This may be totally ignorant, but until FSN picked up the Brewers, I'm not sure they were on TV all that much.
again, I have no idea.
oh, and Selig would have never moved the Brewers. Ever.
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This may be totally ignorant, but until FSN picked up the Brewers, I'm not sure they were on TV all that much.
again, I have no idea.
oh, and Selig would have never moved the Brewers. Ever.
IIRC, after FSN picked them up they weren't even measuring the ratings correctly (something like not picking up the viewership in the northern half of the state) which led to a really bad TV deal (until recently).
Can't say where I read that (or when) but I do recall something to that effect.
edit: sp
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Walkoff 1st to home bunt?! WOW can Carlos Gomez be exciting. That was insane
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Walkoff 1st to home bunt?! WOW can Carlos Gomez be exciting. That was insane
That last inning really summed up just how exciting and frustrating Carlos Gomez can be at the same time...he did everything you would hope he would do...got on base, and clearly demonstrated he can be a very smart, high baseball IQ player, great base runner, and a guy who can put tremendous pressure on the defense. Now if he could just figure out how to do it with some sort of consistency, he'd be an All Star.
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The Brewers scored 2 of their runs on Little League style plays. What an embarassing display. The Cubs play dumb, dumb baseball. Nady had no business making that throw to third and if Theriot simply turned the standard 4-6-3 DP on McGehee's grounder in the 4th, the Cubs probably would have won. Actually, nevermind. This Cubs team would have just found a different way to F things up.
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That last inning really summed up just how exciting and frustrating Carlos Gomez can be at the same time...he did everything you would hope he would do...got on base, and clearly demonstrated he can be a very smart, high baseball IQ player, great base runner, and a guy who can put tremendous pressure on the defense. Now if he could just figure out how to do it with some sort of consistency, he'd be an All Star.
Welcome to being a Twins fan in 2008/2009.
With this said, Carlos really doesn't have far to go to be "solid" or even "good". His defensive range is excellent (routes are a little weird, but range is great).
His glove is good enough at a premium defensive position that he really only needs to bat .260 or so to be an effective player.
If he could bat .300, he would probably be an all-star. He'd not the best base-stealer in the league, but 1st-3rd or 1st -home, he's probably the fastest guy in the league. He puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the defense.
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Thanks for the sweep Brewers, only 2.5 out after winning 9 in a row.
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Yeah, in the first year. They averaged 34K or so a game and then the next 3 years attendance plummeted down to around 20K before resting in that 20-25K range, and now that the Brewers are good, its risen back up to a top 10 level. The new shiny effect of Miller Park brought attendance up, but it went right back down to previous levels. Don't give me metro area stats, thats as good of evidence for what you are trying to refute as any.
I do not think it went all the way down. It really helps attendance for early season when you could be sitting in 30 degree weather and sleet/.
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So ANY chance of anything good coming from this season has now gone out the window for the Brewers. Corey Hart injured his wrist tonight, and although X-rays were negative, he needs an MRI. With MRI results taking a couple days to get back and the trade deadline 8 days away, no team will want to trade for a bat with a bum wrist. That's great news.
Oh well, with Doug Melvin and the current scouting staff still here, chances are we would've traded him for a couple minor league pitchers who never even made it to the major leagues.
Great.
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9.5 games out and:
"They have decided they're close enough to contention that they're not selling, so Hart and Fielder are off the market," Law said, citing an executive from a rival club that was interested in a Brewers player.
What a joke. Melvin and Ash have to go after this season and before we trade Fielder and Hart, otherwise we'll get some minor league players who never pan out and end up not making it to the major leagues.
Those 2 have to be absolutely delusional. First they try to replace CC Sabathia with Braden Looper. Then, after realizing just how terrible our starting pitching is aside from Yovani, they fix it by signing Davis and Wolf. Now we're 9.5 games out of 1st and 9 games out of 2nd heading into August and we're "close enough to contention." That makes sense.
At least the Cubs are making some moves and making SOMETHING out of this season. This season is just an absolute waste for the Brewers.
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9.5 games out and:
"They have decided they're close enough to contention that they're not selling, so Hart and Fielder are off the market," Law said, citing an executive from a rival club that was interested in a Brewers player.
What a joke. Melvin and Ash have to go after this season and before we trade Fielder and Hart, otherwise we'll get some minor league players who never pan out and end up not making it to the major leagues.
Those 2 have to be absolutely delusional. First they try to replace CC Sabathia with Braden Looper. Then, after realizing just how terrible our starting pitching is aside from Yovani, they fix it by signing Davis and Wolf. Now we're 9.5 games out of 1st and 9 games out of 2nd heading into August and we're "close enough to contention." That makes sense.
At least the Cubs are making some moves and making SOMETHING out of this season. This season is just an absolute waste for the Brewers.
As a Cubs fan that realized the season was over in May/June, what exactly are the making of this season?
Note: I'm not interested in one of those online brawls that seem to take place between Ners/Marq84 or CBB/Canadian Dimes. I'm just curious as to the view of those that see things from the other side of the coin.
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9.5 games out and:
"They have decided they're close enough to contention that they're not selling, so Hart and Fielder are off the market," Law said, citing an executive from a rival club that was interested in a Brewers player.
Completely delusional. Fielder's trade value drops enormously when you can't use him for this pennent race.
There are two scenarios that might be at work here. Melvin pretty much has to go with what he's got because trading Fielder and firing Macha admits that he completely f-ed the whole thing up. He'll likely be fired anyway and the new regime figures it out.
What would be much, much worse is that Anastasio is tying his hands because of Fielder's popularity.
The worst thing that happened was that little mini win streak last week. It gave people false hopes.
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As a Cubs fan that realized the season was over in May/June, what exactly are the making of this season?
Note: I'm not interested in one of those online brawls that seem to take place between Ners/Marq84 or CBB/Canadian Dimes. I'm just curious as to the view of those that see things from the other side of the coin.
That was my point. The Brewers just turned this season into an absolute waste by not trading away guys that had some trade value (as Sultan said, Fielder has value because he can be a big bat joining a team looking to make it over the hump for the playoff push, and Hart cannot possibly have higher trade value than he has right now...although spraining his wrist a week before the trade deadline didn't help).
My point was that while the Cubs' season is over, at least their front office realized it and traded some players (Lilly, Theriot) for the future. The Brewers front office sat their and told themselves that they were still in it despite already being 9.5 games out of 1st place (and 9 out of 2nd) and then promptly get swept by the 2nd worst team in the division, who had just traded away their 2 best players BY FAR.
So the point of that post was just to vent about how delusional the front office for the Brewers has been for a while and how this season is now a complete waste because we sat on our hands at the trade deadline.
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In other NL Central news, can anyone explain how Roy Oswalt and Dan Haren were each traded for a hill of beans, but the Cardinals gave up Ryan Ludwick for Jake Westbrook?
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In other NL Central news, can anyone explain how Roy Oswalt and Dan Haren were each traded for a hill of beans, but the Cardinals gave up Ryan Ludwick for Jake Westbrook?
J.A. Haap is really good. The Phillies had trouble agreeing to a deal with the Indians for Cliff Lee last year because they weren't willing to give him up.
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looks like the Reds woke a sleeping giant. too bad, I was really hoping they would be the team out of the Central. I also really like B Phillips and really don't like the Cards. A lot of ball to be played for sure, but if this huge series is any indication, the Reds should have been happy just trying to sneak in a little under the radar. they just aren't as talented - yet.
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they just aren't as talented - yet.
'Yet' is the key word here. With the Edmonds trade and Aroldis Chapman coming up for relief (hopefully) the Reds should start playing like a serious contender in late August and through September. Until then, they just have to win games in one of the easiest second half schedules in the major leagues...
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Bringing up an old thread for hot stove talk - err Brewers rant.
Yesterday the Brewers traded Carlos Villanueva to Toronto for a player to be named.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/brewers-trade-carlos-villanueva.html (http://ttp://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/brewers-trade-carlos-villanueva.html)
Today, news is coming out that Mark Reynolds is available for two relievers: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/mark-re.html (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/mark-re.html)
So on a team with questions at both corner infield spots (McGehee's knees & being due a raise anyway and Fielder being dealt) you essentially gave away one half of a deal that could have brought in one of baseball's most promising 3B?
- Looking at the stats, Reynolds reputation as a liability at avg and obp are overrated. Granted he hit under .200 last year and has struck out more than 200 times the past three years. BUT looking at his peripheral stats, he took more walks than Adam Dunn (who is prized for his OBP) last year in less at bats. Further, he only struck out 12 more times than Dunn. Reynold's batting average in balls in play last year was an incredibly low .257 making him a remarkable bounceback candidate.
- Reynolds & Dunn's power numbers have been very comparable over the past two years.
- Comparing contracts, Dunn just signed a 4yr deal with the White Sox worth $56 million. Reynolds on the other hand, is owed $5 million next year, $7.5 million the year after, and has a team option worth $11 million the final year. Given his age and promise this is remarkably cheap by comparison.
So did Melvin even look into this before moving Villanueva for a sack of magic beans?
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I think that info on Reynolds is intriguing. I just assumed he was a hacker, but if he walks like Dunn, with the same sort of power, he's practically just a cheaper version.
In other hot stove (err Brewers) news, Brewers traded for Shaun Marcum from the Blue Jays. Initial reports were that it was for pitching prospects, but it looks like it was straight up for Brett Lawrie, the Brewers top minor league prospect.
Marcum wont be a free agent for 2 more years, and was paid 850,000 last year. He missed 2009 with Tommy John, but put up very similar numbers in 2008 and 2010. In the AL East he was good for a ~3.5 era with a WHIP ~1.15 in '08 and '10. One expects that would even improve in the NL Central, but to a Brewers fan, sub 4 ERA sounds pretty good all by itself. His ERA in the AL East last year was better than any Brewers starter.
One possible problem might be durability... he's never logged over 200 IP, so he's not a tremendous inning eater, but he should be able to really help out the team immediately.
If we did in fact give up Lawrie, I'm pretty bummed, but at least it was for a very solid starting pitcher, under team control on the cheaps for another couple of years. With the dearth of young stud pitching prospects out there, I think its a pretty deft move to take care of the pitching problem. Not a "long term" solution, but its no Randy Wolf or Jeff Suppan garbage contract.
Situation where I really like this: Melvin knows he's not getting good value in return for Prince, so he trades for a good pitcher who might the missing #2 starter we've never had. Production out of Prince, Rickie, Hart, and Braun from 2 years ago miiiiiiight just make this a borderline playoff team. I know its a stretch. Let me be happy.
Situation where I don't like this: Might have been able to package Lawrie for a little more, but you really can't complain about someone with those numbers for that price for multiple years.
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Looks like I am starting up my "Fire Doug Melvin" campaign early this year.
Hate this trade.
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Really like this move.
The Brewers need arms in the worst way, and Marcum will definitely make there rotation stronger. He should benefit from moving from the AL East to the NL Central.
Lawrie wasnt that close to the major leagues, not really sweating the loss there.
Weeks will be the Brewers 2B for awhile.
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Really like this move.
The Brewers need arms in the worst way, and Marcum will definitely make there rotation stronger. He should benefit from moving from the AL East to the NL Central.
Lawrie wasnt that close to the major leagues, not really sweating the loss there.
Weeks will be the Brewers 2B for awhile.
I feel like we are getting 'just another arm'... that is 29, and has a TJ on it, and only for 2 years.
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The way the market for pitching is this year...it is either do something like this, or seriously overpay for Carl Pavano.
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The way the market for pitching is this year...it is either do something like this, or seriously overpay for Carl Pavano.
Oh, I understand. There is nothing out there. I am just not sure that giving up on a pretty good looking bat is worth 2 years.
My problem is, I don't see the Brewers making any sort of run in the next 2 or 3 years... and so I don't see the point in dealing our best minor leaguer. It just seems like they are trying to keep their heads above water, and keep some fans coming to games.
Didn't you like Randy Wolf too? :-)
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I feel like we are getting 'just another arm'... that is 29, and has a TJ on it, and only for 2 years.
Its a fan's job to be pessimistic about it: The Blue Jays fan boards are stunned and appalled they gave Marcum up. He was their #1 starter after Halladay left.
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2010/12/5/1857672/shaun-marcum-traded-to-the-brewers
Tommy John is not that big of a deal. I don't know why people still think that its some kind of career ending thing or ticking time bomb.
Signing Brandon McCarthy or some other FA starter not named Cliff Lee would have been "just another arm." Marcum has undeniable production his last 2 full years. Happier with this than paying a guy like Carl Pavano. We'll end up seeing what we lost in Lawrie, but for now, I think its hard not to like the trade.
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Oh, I understand. There is nothing out there. I am just not sure that giving up on a pretty good looking bat is worth 2 years.
My problem is, I don't see the Brewers making any sort of run in the next 2 or 3 years... and so I don't see the point in dealing our best minor leaguer. It just seems like they are trying to keep their heads above water, and keep some fans coming to games.
Didn't you like Randy Wolf too? :-)
They have a chance to do something with a better rotation.
I actually hated the Wolf signing. I wish I would have put it on paper somewhere...He was coming off the best season of his career, one in which he was pitching for a contract...and he was coming off a year where he got to pitch in several pitcher friendly ballparks which inflated his numbers. He finished the 2010 season strong, so hopefully that will carry over.
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Its a fan's job to be pessimistic about it: The Blue Jays fan boards are stunned and appalled they gave Marcum up. He was their #1 starter after Halladay left.
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2010/12/5/1857672/shaun-marcum-traded-to-the-brewers
Tommy John is not that big of a deal. I don't know why people still think that its some kind of career ending thing or ticking time bomb.
Signing Brandon McCarthy or some other FA starter not named Cliff Lee would have been "just another arm." Marcum has undeniable production his last 2 full years. Happier with this than paying a guy like Carl Pavano. We'll end up seeing what we lost in Lawrie, but for now, I think its hard not to like the trade.
I realize that half of this is me... probably more than half. I will probably never be happy until we can get 3 solid starters, and 2 guys who can go at least 6 innings.
Which means I will probably never be happy :)
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I realize that half of this is me... probably more than half. I will probably never be happy until we can get 3 solid starters, and 2 guys who can go at least 6 innings.
Which means I will probably never be happy :)
I'm with your concerns... I don't think this is a move that puts us in contention or anything, but 2 years left on the contract leaves some room for negotiating something a little longer term perhaps. I do think he can be a solid player. Established pitching with little downside is hard to come by at this price.
That's really why I like it so much. For how much he is getting paid, hes a great player.
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For what its worth, Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports tweeted that one of the reasons the Brewers were okay with parting with Lawrie is they think they can sign Marcum to a longer deal. The Blue Jays were already in talks with Marcum about a 3 year deal. That would be about perfect for a then 31 year old pitcher.
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/11648712132526080
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/11648990403624962
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an extension on Marcum would be great. barring that, I'm okay with the deal so long as that Marcum is a type A once he becomes a free agent. that means that he would have had to play well enough for the crew to get some good pitching out of the deal and the pick should really help make up for losing Lawrie. (I know this is projecting incredibly far, but its just hard to compare what kind of player Lawrie is). If Marcum pitches like he did last year, he also might be looking at a 3.00-3.25ish, which would be incredible for a Brewers pitcher. I think we've only had two guys start and finish the season and do that for us in the past forever.
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Seems from fan commnets, at least those on ESPN.com, that Jays fans are are either pissed or puzzled. So as a Brewers fan, I think this is a winner.
Keep in mind, he is going from the toughest division in baseball, to arguably the worst. Last year posted a 13-8, 1.1 WHIP, and 2.0/BB per 9. Thank the Christ, someone that can just throw strikes.
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Rumors of Prince to L.A. for Loney and Broxton:
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=5892211
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Rumors of Prince to L.A. for Loney and Broxton:
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=5892211
I hope this is a cruel joke. I don't see how that helps the Brewers at all. If that's the best out there, then take the draft picks at the end of the year.
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agreed. the contracts arent even great on these guys. Loney is due a raise in arbitration off a $3mm+ deal, and Broxton is a performance question mark and isnt cheap besides. the only way this helps is if Broxton pitches to A status and gives the Brewers a high compensatory pick when he leaves. but this is unlikely if he doesnt close. i do like the Brewers idea of approaching a team with a built in replacement though (Loney) provided the rest of the pieces of solid.
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agreed. the contracts arent even great on these guys. Loney is due a raise in arbitration off a $3mm+ deal, and Broxton is a performance question mark and isnt cheap besides. the only way this helps is if Broxton pitches to A status and gives the Brewers a high compensatory pick when he leaves. but this is unlikely if he doesnt close. i do like the Brewers idea of approaching a team with a built in replacement though (Loney) provided the rest of the pieces of solid.
Amen, Ask any fantasy owner who had him last year.
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brewers discussing a three year deal with carl pavano. say it aint so... they were doing so well too.
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brewers discussing a three year deal with carl pavano. say it aint so... they were doing so well too.
+1,000,000,000,000,000
Really liked the Marcum move. Signing Pavano for anything more than one year on the cheap would just negate it. Would really like to know what Garza is costing. Read tonight that the Chubs are getting serious about him.
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definitely would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in those discussions. media really seemed to think the Garza deal might happen, because trading them Cain would have allowed them to move B.J. Upton, who they are sick of. i think that the Brewers inability to get Garza or Greinke really shows that they have big plans for Lorenzo Cain in center. this, at least is reassuring. makes me wonder what it would take to get Ricky Nolasco, who has been in trade discussions.
side note: why would you not better the Pirates offer for Kevin Correia (2yr, $8mm) only to sign Jeff Suppan 2.0 for a projected 3yr, $33mm!?! I have been a huge Correia advocate for some time now, but the difference in output for investment just doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I can come up with is Pavano's reputation as an innings eater, which is the huge buzzword of the minute when it comes to spending on SP.
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I hope you guys stay away from Hot Carl. The Twins like him. He was solid this year.
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So much for those big plans for Cain...Brewers reportedly trading Cain, Escobar, Odorrizzi (pitching prospect) and Jeffress (pitching prospect) for Grienke, and supposedly Yuniesky Betencourt.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586
I honestly can't believe we picked up Greinke without Lawrie. I'm more than a little concerned about the fact that the farm is now entirely sold, but wow. Can't blame Melvin for not being aggressive. Opening day starting 5 of Gallardo, Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, Narveson. I don't pause to say that is now easily the best rotation in the NL central.
I'm scared how this team will look in 3 years, but holy crap, they could actually be good next year.
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Although, I should note, we did give up 2 opening day lineup starters, and two pretty darn good defensive players (I know Escobar had a rough year with errors, but he gets to EVERYTHING at short). From what I've heard Escobar has had a terrible winter league performance, batting below .230, which probably is what prompted the Brewers to feel comfortable dealing him. Can't say I'm excited about starting Yuniesky Betancourt at SS full time, and Carlos Gomez in center full time, but Greinke is probably worth it if Escobar doesn't turn into the player we thought he would 2 years ago.
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I am totally happy with this trade.
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I really fell in love with Cain after his end of the year last year, but the thought must have been that he wasn't going to be dramatically better than gomez last year, and we have Kentrail Davis coming through the system in a year or two to mitigate that loss. Escobar will be a good player, but has lost some luster over the past year and a half. I'm sad to see him go, especially when the obvious replacement is yuniesky betancourt. yuck. Its also sad to see the pitching go, but this was clearly the move of a GM that knew he had to do something. This buys Melvin at least until Greinke and Marcum's deals run out. Overall I like the deal. It makes the Crew the arguable favorite in the central and barring a Greinke collapse, it gives the crew a bargaining chip to hopefully lure a decent hitter to replace Fielder.
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Opening day starting 5 of Gallardo, Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, Narveson. I don't pause to say that is now easily the best rotation in the NL central.
The crews rotation is "easily" better than the cards?
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its pretty close; i think that the crew's will prove better by the end of the year though. If you call Yo & Greinke vs Carpenter & Wainwright roughly a wash, youre left with Marcum, Wolf, Narveson v. Garcia, Westbrook, Lohse. I think Garcia regresses this year, so the Brewers win at the 3 by a fairly substantial margin. westbrook v. wolf is roughly a wash, westbrook would have to improve to beat wolf out. Narveson v. Lohse, who the hell knows.
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Looks like Melvin was told he better go all in.
Really like his moves so far. Gave up a lot of prospects but Melvin has always been able to put together pretty good hitting.
It'll be interesting to see if they're done or if he's going to reshape the bullpen too.
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assuming the Crew will keep Fielder now (hard to see them dealing him with the chances to compete this season) not a lot of clear options at 1B come next offseason. the thought was that maybe he got dealt for a built in replacement like the rumors with Loney, but the drop off in offense wont be worth the rebuilding now. just try to compete this season and then use the picks to start restocking the farm.
but whereas there were some nice middling options at 1B available this year (Pena, Laroche, Lee) next year will be quite a bit more shallow. Beyond Prince, the list is Pena again (who will either be crappy and not worth it or expensive if he bounces back in chi) Swisher (will be fairly expensive but Yanks might decline his option) Jason Kubel could probably play first and Michael Cuddyer. I'm guessing Gamel is always an option too.
I know its early, but excited with these SPs under contract for two years, and would want to compete for those two years.
Edited to add Kubel, especially since the Twins wont likely resign them both.
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The Brewers gave up quite a bit for a pitcher who had worse numbers than Carlos Zambrano in 2010 and whose career numbers compare favorably with the likes of Joe Magrane, Atlee Hammaker and Ismael Valdez.
That being said, the Brewers are definitely going all-in this season. The NL Central is down and could be theirs for the taking...although I still think that the StL and Cincy are better top to bottom.
And I'm hopeful that my beloved Cubs can finish ahead of Houston and Pittsburgh.
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The Brewers gave up quite a bit for a pitcher who had worse numbers than Carlos Zambrano in 2010 and whose career numbers compare favorably with the likes of Joe Magrane, Atlee Hammaker and Ismael Valdez.
That being said, the Brewers are definitely going all-in this season. The NL Central is down and could be theirs for the taking...although I still think that the StL and Cincy are better top to bottom.
And I'm hopeful that my beloved Cubs can finish ahead of Houston and Pittsburgh.
Don't read in too much into last year's numbers. Greinke, admittedly, gets bored at times during the season when he has nothing to pitch for. On the Royals, he constantly lost games while only giving up 1-3 runs over 7+ innings. If the Brewers are contending, he will dominant.
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The Brewers gave up quite a bit for a pitcher who had worse numbers than Carlos Zambrano in 2010 and whose career numbers compare favorably with the likes of Joe Magrane, Atlee Hammaker and Ismael Valdez.
That being said, the Brewers are definitely going all-in this season. The NL Central is down and could be theirs for the taking...although I still think that the StL and Cincy are better top to bottom.
And I'm hopeful that my beloved Cubs can finish ahead of Houston and Pittsburgh.
False.
Greinke had a lower WHIP and less total # of walks, despite pitching nearly 100 more innings. Obviously, he had more K's because of that extra work, as well as 3 CG.
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Don't read in too much into last year's numbers. Greinke, admittedly, gets bored at times during the season when he has nothing to pitch for. On the Royals, he constantly lost games while only giving up 1-3 runs over 7+ innings. If the Brewers are contending, he will dominant.
Only 2 of Greinke's 14 losses in '10 came when he pitched 7+ innings and gave up 3 or fewer runs, and in one of those games he gave up 4 runs but only 3 were earned.
I should mention that I'm not trying to knock the guy and I applaud the Brewers for improving on a weakness and going for it this season. At least they have a plan unlike the Cubs.
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False.
Greinke had a lower WHIP and less total # of walks, despite pitching nearly 100 more innings. Obviously, he had more K's because of that extra work, as well as 3 CG.
Z had more wins, fewer losses, a significantly lower ERA (3.33 vs. 4.17), better K/9 numbers (8.12 vs. 7.41) and a better BAA (.246 vs .260). If you want to get into real stat-nerd numbers, Z also had a slightly better WAR (2.7 vs. 2.4).
I'm not saying Zambrano is better than Greinke and I realize that Z pitched out of the pen in almost half his appearances last year and I'm sure you could find other numbers that favor Greinke. I just think it will be interesting to see if the '09 or '10 Greinke shows up to play next season because many of the Brewers fans I've talked to seem to think they just landed Greg Maddux in his prime.
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Z had more wins, fewer losses, a significantly lower ERA (3.33 vs. 4.17), better K/9 numbers (8.12 vs. 7.41) and a better BAA (.246 vs .260). If you want to get into real stat-nerd numbers, Z also had a slightly better WAR (2.7 vs. 2.4).
I'm not saying Zambrano is better than Greinke and I realize that Z pitched out of the pen in almost half his appearances last year and I'm sure you could find other numbers that favor Greinke. I just think it will be interesting to see if the '09 or '10 Greinke shows up to play next season because many of the Brewers fans I've talked to seem to think they just landed Greg Maddux in his prime.
Where did you get your WAR stat? I got Greinke at 5.2 according to fangraphs.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1943&position=P
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Where did you get your WAR stat? I got Greinke at 5.2 according to fangraphs.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1943&position=P
I got 2.4 from Baseball Reference...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greinza01.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greinza01.shtml)
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Greinke also pitched in the AL compared to Zambrano in the NL. And he is 2 years removed from winning a Cy Young Award on one of the worst teams in the MLB. Beyond that, like Braun was quoted as saying, I don't think it really matters how he (Braun was talking about the Brewers as a whole, not just Greinke) stacks up against other pitchers, what matters is that the Brewers are making moves to improve, and they improved a lot. So no, he's probably not the best pitcher in the NL (although if he goes back to his form 2 years ago he may be), but he sure as heck improves the Brewers rotation. Comparing the Opening Day rotation from last year to this year, it goes like this:
2010
#1 starter: Yo (borderline #1/really good #2)
#2 starter: Randy Wolf (borderline #4/#5 guy)
#3 starter: Doug Davis (OK #5 guy)
#4 starter: Dave Bush (should never be a starter)
#5 starter: Jeff Suppan (terrible)
2011
#1 starter: Greinke (legit #1)
#2 starter: Yo (borderline #1/really good #2)
#3 starter: Marcum (legit #2 starter at the #3 spot)
#4 starter: Randy Wolf (borderline #4/#5 guy)
#5 starter: Chris Narveson (hopefully a good #5)
With this rotation and a core offensive group of Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Hart, and McGehee this makes us legitimate NL Central contenders. I personally think it comes down to the Reds and the Brewers, with the Cardinals possibly staying in it.
It'll come down to what we get out of Cargo, what we get at the catcher spot, and what we can do at shortstop. Cargo doesn't need to be a stud, he just needs to play good defense and use his speed on the basepaths. I liked what Lucroy brings, but it will come down to who can run the pitching staff the best...that's all we need out of the catcher. Shortstop who knows.
It will also be interesting to see what happens with the bullpen, with Braddock as a setup man and Axford as the closer, that's a solid start. Cameron Loe and Manny Parra could be good out of the bullpen (although if Narveson isn't pitching well as a starter I would hope these are the 2 that they would replace him with). Mark Rogers could also be in the group with Parra and Loe. Those three are all question marks though, and beyond that who knows what it will be.
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I like the Marcum pickup but I think you gave up too much for Greinke.
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I view this as a move Melvin made to save his job, but will doom his future.
The Brewers were looking to get 3-4 LEGIT prospects for Prince Fielder. The Yankees are going to be desperate to compete with the Red Sox after failing in the Hot Stove. This scared me, the Brewers would have the best or second best farm with loads of young talent which should translate into multi-year success, much like the Twins have established with their farm system.
Why would you trade your #1 prospect, your soon to be #1 prospect in Cain, and your #1 & #3 pitching prospects for a two-year rental? The Brewers are not in a position overall to dominate the NL Central with their lineup. The Reds have a better lineup and the Cards will always be competing. Not to mention, no team from the NL will even compete with the 100+ wins the Phillies will put up this year.
It's not like the Brewers are missing one dominate SP, plenty of holes out here.
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I view this as a move Melvin made to save his job, but will doom his future.
The Brewers were looking to get 3-4 LEGIT prospects for Prince Fielder. The Yankees are going to be desperate to compete with the Red Sox after failing in the Hot Stove. This scared me, the Brewers would have the best or second best farm with loads of young talent which should translate into multi-year success, much like the Twins have established with their farm system.
Why would you trade your #1 prospect, your soon to be #1 prospect in Cain, and your #1 & #3 pitching prospects for a two-year rental? The Brewers are not in a position overall to dominate the NL Central with their lineup. The Reds have a better lineup and the Cards will always be competing. Not to mention, no team from the NL will even compete with the 100+ wins the Phillies will put up this year.
It's not like the Brewers are missing one dominate SP, plenty of holes out here.
The Brewers would never expect to get 3-4 legit prospects... you can't be serious. Simply being a Scott Boras client lowers a players trade value since he almost always takes his clients to free agency. If the Brewers wanted any value for Prince they would have traded him the off season after the playoff run.
Also, last I checked 100+ games doesn't gaurantee a playoff series victory. Getting into the playoffs is more than half the battle... once you are there, anything can happen.
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The Brewers would never expect to get 3-4 legit prospects... you can't be serious.
I thought it was well known the Brewers were asking for 3 or 4 legit prospects. That's why there hasn't been a deal.
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The Brewers would never expect to get 3-4 legit prospects... you can't be serious. Simply being a Scott Boras client lowers a players trade value since he almost always takes his clients to free agency. If the Brewers wanted any value for Prince they would have traded him the off season after the playoff run.
Also, last I checked 100+ games doesn't gaurantee a playoff series victory. Getting into the playoffs is more than half the battle... once you are there, anything can happen.
I think the Royals never expected 4 legit prospects for Grenike either.
100+ games won't give you a playoff series, but the best team usually wins. Any team that gets to throw Halladay, Lee, & Hamels/Oswalt in the playoffs has the best chance to be the best team.
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I thought it was well known the Brewers were asking for 3 or 4 legit prospects. That's why there hasn't been a deal.
Exactly. With the Yankees looking up at the Red Sox's roster right now, they'll be getting squirrley.
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I thought it was well known the Brewers were asking for 3 or 4 legit prospects. That's why there hasn't been a deal.
There are also reports that teams are leery of trading for, and then giving a big extension to, a guy with Prince's, um, body type. GMs just don't trust that $100M over 5-6 years isn't going to make him fat(ter) and happy.
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There are also reports that teams are leery of trading for, and then giving a big extension to, a guy with Prince's, um, body type. GMs just don't trust that $100M over 5-6 years isn't going to make him fat(ter) and happy.
(http://cardboardgods.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/cecil-fielder-95.jpg)
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I remember when Cecil got thrown out at first base on a base hit to right field. It was a turf field but I forgot where it was. Skydome maybe?
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This scared me, the Brewers would have the best or second best farm with loads of young talent which should translate into multi-year success, much like the Twins have established with their farm system.
The Brewers have been described in this way for the better part of 10 years. Prospects are just that, prospects, and the majority of them never enjoy any significant MLB success. The only time they had any real success was when they gave up significant prospects to acquire CC Sabathia. Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything, They are good enough to come out on top of the AL central 50% of the time or so, but once they get into the playoffs, those prospects turned major leaguers simply aren't good enough. BTW, let's not pretend they are entirely homegrown anyway. Carl Pavano, J.J. Hardy, Delmon Young, Jim Thome, Orlando Hudson, Delmon Young...these are not products of the farm system. The core is obvious, but the Brewers core of guys has nt been sacrificed in this deal Beyond that, if it doesn't work out, they still will have the option of trading Fielder and.pr Grienke to get those peices back (and be bad again like last year). The Brewers have been concerned about the future for too long. Maintaining that mindset while they have a chance with Fielder, Braun, etc. is likely to get them to the same place they have been.
That said, make no mistake about it, this is not a deal that Doug Melvin made. Sure, he may have assembled the final pieces, but just like the Sabathia trade, Mark Attanasio pulled the trigger on this one. Doug's future is secure.
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Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything
Really? I know 28 major league teams that would kill for their success.
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Exactly. With the Yankees looking up at the Red Sox's roster right now, they'll be getting squirrley.
But aren't the Yankees kind of boxed in with Teixeira at 1st?
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But aren't the Yankees kind of boxed in with Teixeira at 1st?
Prince is a DH, not a first baseman.
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Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything, They are good enough to come out on top of the AL central 50% of the time or so, but once they get into the playoffs, those prospects turned major leaguers simply aren't good enough. BTW, let's not pretend they are entirely homegrown anyway. Carl Pavano, J.J. Hardy, Delmon Young, Jim Thome, Orlando Hudson, Delmon Young...these are not products of the farm system.
You are the first person I've ever seen to crap on the way the Twins do things.
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Prince is a DH, not a first baseman.
Good point. For some reason, I thought the Yankees were fine with moving Posada to the DH in the not too distant future. But if they keep him at C, then that spot would need filling.
Eventually, though, I would expect Prince to sign a contract at 1B pay, not DH pay.
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You are the first person I've ever seen to crap on the way the Twins do things.
I'm not crapping on it, but "the way the Twins do things" is also a bit of a myth. They have had plenty of homegrown talent and will continue to do so(as have/will the Brewers), but they have also done plenty to augment that talent via trades and FA. Beyond that, they last won an AL (and WS) championship 20 years ago, and they have won exactly 1 playoff series in that time.
My response is more to the sentiment that the Brewers are giving up the future with a deal like this. Its what it takes to try to compete for something. They had everything they gave up in the trade in the system last year, and they had one of the worst pitching staffs in the league. Upgrading that pitching comes with a price. They could hang onto the prospects and look forward to several more years of sub-.500 baseball. Just as with the Twins, where would they have been without the likes of Carl Pavano, Delmon Young . O-dog, Thome...Trades and FA are a must of you want to win. If you want something of value, you have to give up something of value.
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Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything
It was a decade (2001-2010) in which the Twins had nine winning seasons and produced an average record of 89-73. There were six division titles, as well as a Game 163 loss to the White Sox in 2008.
They have also won two World Series. I am not a Twins fan by any stretch but facts are facts.
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I'm not crapping on it, but "the way the Twins do things" is also a bit of a myth. They have had plenty of homegrown talent and will continue to do so(as have/will the Brewers), but they have also done plenty to augment that talent via trades and FA. Beyond that, they last won an AL (and WS) championship 20 years ago, and they have won exactly 1 playoff series in that time.
My response is more to the sentiment that the Brewers are giving up the future with a deal like this. Its what it takes to try to compete for something. They had everything they gave up in the trade in the system last year, and they had one of the worst pitching staffs in the league. Upgrading that pitching comes with a price. They could hang onto the prospects and look forward to several more years of sub-.500 baseball. Just as with the Twins, where would they have been without the likes of Carl Pavano, Delmon Young . O-dog, Thome...Trades and FA are a must of you want to win. If you want something of value, you have to give up something of value.
I understand what you're saying about players "raised" within the organization, but the big difference is that the Twins rarely package their prospects for one big-name player who can help them immediately. They typically trade their big-name, soon-to-be rich players in exchange for someone else's prospects. Or they trade their home grown players in order to fill a hole (Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young). Also, Pavano, Hudson and Thome were hardly marquee FAs when the Twins signed them. They had a huge impact on the team's success but these guys weren't getting multi-year, 8-figure offers from the Yankees or Red Sox.
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(Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young).
Don't forget about Bartlett in the trade for Young, an important piece......Young had a good year last year at the plate but there were plenty of rumors of the Twins trading before last year because of their overloaded outfield and his despicable/hilarious way of playing left field....he is definitely a liability in the outfield.
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Or they trade their home grown players in order to fill a hole (Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young).
Isn't that what the Brewers just did? Outside of the Grand Canyon, there may not be a bigger hole than the Brewers' rotation last year.
For this year at least while they still have Fielder, they have the lineup to compete. After this trade, it appears they may also have the rotation to compete. The latter simply doesn't happen if they hang onto all their prospects and continually wait for a tomorrow that never comes.
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Every article I have read on this trade has been basically glowing about what the Brewers did. Lorenzo Cain and Escobar are nice players, but will never be all-stars; as Cain doesn't do any one thing especially well and despite Escobar's range, he will never do anything more at the plate than hit a very empty .270 at best. Jeffres has an electric arm but without a better array of pitches, is destined for a spot in the bullpen; not to mention that he's one strike away from a lifetime ban. Ordozzi played A ball last year and is at least 3 years away from the majors. It's very hard to project out that far on him. The Brewers have a nice young nucleus now and there is no reason for them to continue looking to the future, they spent a better part of 25 years doing that in between 1982 and 2008. They scored the 4th most runs in the NL last year and have arguably the 2nd best rotation in the NL now behind the Phillies. This and the Marcum deal make all the sense in the world at this point. If they lose Fielder, Greinke, and Marcum in the next 2 years, they'll have extra draft picks to help fill the void in the farm system that these deals have made. Going in to last year, I don't think many people had SF winning the World Series, despite their great pitching, due to their tepid offense; you just never know.
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When the Brewers traded for Sabathia a couple of years ago, there were a number of people upset that they mortgaged the future by trading away Matt LaPorta. And while he may turn out to be a decent player, I can't imagine that those same people are lamenting that move given what happened in 2008.
I've been a Brewer fan most of my life, and one thing always is the case...the fandom always judges future prospects as better than they actually are. Honestly, Braun and Fielder are the only ones to live up to the hype. Even solid players like Rickie Weeks were thought to have potential wildly beyond the reality.
Time is now. This is a great trade.
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and have arguably the 2nd best rotation in the NL now behind the Phillies.
Really? Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.
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Really? Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.
Greinke and Gallardo are really good. Wolf is a good #4 starter. For me, the whole thing kinda hinges on Marcum. If he's as good as he was in the AL East, their rotation will be excellent.
Still not crazy about Narveson as the fifth starter, but this rotation paired with their potent offense could be really, really good.
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Really? Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.
That's why I said arguably. Philly is clearly the best, then there are a bunch of other teams vying for 2nd in my opinion, but I don't think Cinci or Atl is in that group.
'10 WAR (per fangraphs) of projected top 4 starters in '11 (for those that didn't make a full slate of starts, I projected their '10 WAR to 28 starts)
Philly 22.20
LA 15.93
Stl 15.30
Milw 15.00
Fla 14.90
SF 14.81
Atl 11.38
Cinci 10.92
I realize that's making quite a few assuptions but that's the best measure I could think of.
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http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5946049 (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5946049)
Buster Olney's thoughts on the best rotations in baseball.
If you don't have insider:
1. Phillies
2. Giants
3. A's
4. Rays
5. Red Sox
6. Brewers
7. Tigers
8a. Braves
8b. Cardinals
10a. Dodgers
10b. White Sox
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Greinke and Gallardo are really good. Wolf is a good #4 starter. For me, the whole thing kinda hinges on Marcum. If he's as good as he was in the AL East, their rotation will be excellent.
Marcum will be solid. He is a stud.
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http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Milwaukee-Brewers-reach-agreement-with-Takashi-Saito-122710
Saito is old, but he's pretty darn good. With Axford and Bradock already in the bullpen, this looks to really shape that part of the pitching staff up.
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Blah, looks like the Cubs just got Garza. Gave up a good deal of the farm.
unnatural carnal knowledgeing Cubs.
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Blah, looks like the Cubs just got Garza. Gave up a good deal of the farm.
fracking Cubs.
Their minor league player of the year and their minor league pitcher of the year, plus their SS of the future for Garza? Hendry can't overpay for FAs this year cause Ricketts wont let him, so he is now overpaying with prospects? I'll wait to see what the actual deal is, but I was less than pleased when I read what the Rays would get.
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Their minor league player of the year and their minor league pitcher of the year, plus their SS of the future for Garza? Hendry can't overpay for FAs this year cause Ricketts wont let him, so he is now overpaying with prospects? I'll wait to see what the actual deal is, but I was less than pleased when I read what the Rays would get.
It's not good. Not good at all.
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It's not good. Not good at all.
We'll see how it pans out but I wouldn't call it a bad trade. The Cubs get a top of rotation guy who, at least until now, has been healthy. They've had plenty of "can't miss" prospects in the past so I guess I'd rather get a proven player. Castro is our SS of the future at 20 yrs old and Soto is only six months older than Chrisnos (sp?) so I'm not worried about losing him or Lee. I think Guyer will be good but, again, no guarantees. Time for Cashner to step up too.
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Plus Cubs control Garza for 3 years before free agency.
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Watch out Brewer fans! The Cubs just resigned Reed
Mantle Johnson!
(http://sportretort.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/reed-johnson-robs-fielder.jpg)
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Looks like Rickie will be staying in MKE for the next 4-5 years.
4 years, 38.5, club option for 5th, pushing it to 50.
From a Brewer fan, pretty fair, like his bat and speed, and he has become a better fielder as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6128467
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Do the Brewers have the worst infield in all of baseball?
1B Fielder
2B Weeks
SS Betancourt
3B Casey McGehee
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Do the Brewers have the worst infield in all of baseball?
1B Fielder
2B Weeks
SS Betancourt
3B Casey McGehee
Defensively, maybe. Offensively, that is 2 100 RBI guys, a 25+ HR, 100+ R leadoff hitter, and.... well, and Betancourt.
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Do the Brewers have the worst infield in all of baseball?
1B Fielder
2B Weeks
SS Betancourt
3B Casey McGehee
Worst infield in all of baseball? What? Fielder, Weeks, and McGehee all rake offensively. McGehee is a good but not great defender. Fielder is a completely underrated defender...not saying he is a great defender but I think people think that he's a bad defender just because he's a big boy. Not true at all. He's actually a solid defender. And Weeks's defense improved a TON last year. Became a very good defensive 2nd baseman. Betancourt sucks.
This is a very above average infield overall.
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Do the Brewers have the worst infield in all of baseball?
1B Fielder
2B Weeks
SS Betancourt
3B Casey McGehee
Defensively, yes. Fielder, Betancourt, and McGehee are among the worst at their position. Weeks is a little better than average.
Offensively, no. Fielder and Weeks are among the best at their position, McGehee is above average, and Betancourt is among the worst.
If Betancourt gets more than 200 plate appearances this year, that is a major problem. The guy is replacement level at best. Even at this late stage in his career, Counsell is a better option. Maybe they'll give Cruz a shot there.
The Brewers are pretty solid overall but have major problems up the middle (SS, CF, C). If they are in it at the trade deadline, those are 3 positions I would definitely try to upgrade if I was Melvin.