MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: dgies9156 on September 23, 2011, 09:35:31 AM
-
For the first time since it was obvious Bob Dukiet was WAY over his head, I'm beginning to worry about our program. We are on the verge of recapturing what we once had -- a perennial Top 10 team -- and now an important components of our success is crumbling out from underneath us.
I'm scared because if things don't play out just right, we'll end up another Loyola of Chicago. That's a once-proud program with a national championship 1.5 generations ago that's now an after-thought in the Horizon League.
I'm scared because some of the talk has us grouped with Dayton, St. Louis, Detroit, DePaul and other mid-majors. My God, Milwaukee already has one mid-major. It doesn't need another!
I'm scared because Buzz is brining top talent and excelling at Marquette. Can we keep him if we're playing half our games against Valpo, Dayton and Cleveland State?
And, yes, I'm concerned that as we move forward, the chances for us to be a competitive, aggressive and "chip on our shoulder" program that slays monsters (such as Badgers, Wolverines, Huskies, Golden Bears, Longhorns, Wildcats, Hoosiers, Bulldogs etc.) diminishes everytime I open this board.
Maybe I'm fatalistic, but as my friend Brew points out, football is driving everything! I don't begrudge the Jesuits' decision to end Marquette football in 1960. In fact, given the cost/benefit of small college Division 1 football (aka, vanderbilt, Duke etc.), the Jesuits were visionary. But the decision the Jesuits made in 1960 to end football is really hurting our basketball program now. Perhaps it is inevitable and an outgrowth of the professionalization and profitability of big-time college athletics, but I sure hope we beat the odds and keep the basketball program the way it is.
-
List of things I am scared of.
1. Being prison raped
2. Rabid dogs
3. Ghosts
256. College basketball realignment.
-
Worst case scenario I see for us is Xavier, which is not very far from what we are now, if it's really a step down at all. We'll be fine, but I agree this does hurt a bit of the momentum Buzz had going. I saw us trending towards Louisville/Michigan State territory but there is a chance that that is no longer realistic. As long as Buzz stays with us through thick and thin here, I think we're in good hands. I have no doubts about what he can do for our program.
-
4. Clowns
5. That evil monkey in my closet
-
OMG...what was that? I'm scared too!
I have been an MU fan since I was a little kid in the mid 70's, lived in Beloit from '71 to '79( born in '69).
MU has certainly gone thru many different varaitions since that time. The only thing that has been consistant is MU has maintained itself as a traditional basketball power. We have had some ups and downs. I was in school during Dukiet and Oneill, n dont recall missing a game.
Things may chnage but MU will remain a basketball force, it is part of MU's core. I dont feel that will change.
Annoyed , yes. Scared, no.
Also...this original post gets my vote for worst thread ever.
-
6.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2r403uo.jpg)
-
OMG...what was that? I'm scared too!
I have been an MU fan since I was a little kid in the mid 70's, lived in Beloit from '71 to '79( born in '69).
MU has certainly gone thru many different varaitions since that time. The only thing that has been consistant is MU has maintained itself as a traditional basketball power. We have had some ups and downs. I was in school during Dukiet and Oneill, n dont recall missing a game.
Things may chnage but MU will remain a basketball force, it is part of MU's core. I dont feel that will change.
Annoyed , yes. Scared, no.
Also...this original post gets my vote for worst thread ever.
Keep in mind it was written by the same guy who claimed after the Seton Hall loss and Louisville Big East tournament loss that we would be nothing but "cannon foddler" in the Big East and NCAA tournaments. Classic over-reactor.
-
huh?
-
I'M SO...STARTLED!!!
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3079/p20081114214008original.jpg)
-
7)
-
6.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2r403uo.jpg)
Proof positive that HD is not for everyone!
-
Scared? No, not at all. I have confidence that MU will land on it's feet and continue to build a strong program with Buzz at the helm.
I am concerned about the future of the BE. Until that implodes and MU lands where they land, why be scared?
-
Why do people keep forgetting that Marquette had a basketball program before the Big East?
-
For the first time since it was obvious Bob Dukiet was WAY over his head, I'm beginning to worry about our program. We are on the verge of recapturing what we once had -- a perennial Top 10 team -- and now an important components of our success is crumbling out from underneath us.
I'm scared because if things don't play out just right, we'll end up another Loyola of Chicago. That's a once-proud program with a national championship 1.5 generations ago that's now an after-thought in the Horizon League.
I'm scared because some of the talk has us grouped with Dayton, St. Louis, Detroit, DePaul and other mid-majors. My God, Milwaukee already has one mid-major. It doesn't need another!
I'm scared because Buzz is brining top talent and excelling at Marquette. Can we keep him if we're playing half our games against Valpo, Dayton and Cleveland State?
And, yes, I'm concerned that as we move forward, the chances for us to be a competitive, aggressive and "chip on our shoulder" program that slays monsters (such as Badgers, Wolverines, Huskies, Golden Bears, Longhorns, Wildcats, Hoosiers, Bulldogs etc.) diminishes everytime I open this board.
Maybe I'm fatalistic, but as my friend Brew points out, football is driving everything! I don't begrudge the Jesuits' decision to end Marquette football in 1960. In fact, given the cost/benefit of small college Division 1 football (aka, vanderbilt, Duke etc.), the Jesuits were visionary. But the decision the Jesuits made in 1960 to end football is really hurting our basketball program now. Perhaps it is inevitable and an outgrowth of the professionalization and profitability of big-time college athletics, but I sure hope we beat the odds and keep the basketball program the way it is.
I think it's pretty hard to figure out how true the bolded statement is...if at all. First of all, it's impossible to know whether Marquette would have ever been a "perennial Top 10 team" if it had kept football, much less had any opportunity to recapture that level of success. We'll never know, so that's a pointless debate.
A lot of football schools are going to get left out of the "super conferences." While it's also impossible to know what kind of program Marquette would have had if it had continued with football (or what conference they might have been in), I think the composition of the "super conferences" that are developing suggests that even if it had kept football, Marquette likely still would have been on the outside looking in. Simply put, with relatively few exceptions, the teams that are forming these conferences are public universities. Looking at the exceptions, almost all of the private schools have been in the conferences for a long, long time (Stanford - 1918; USC - 1922; Northwestern - 1896; Duke - 1953; Wake - 1953; and Vandy - 1932). The other two (Miami and BC) are outliers. I'll admit it's possible that Marquette might have developed into an elite football program, but I honestly think it's far more likely that they would have been a middle of the road program that still would have been on the outside looking in. Incidentally, this is exactly the same reason why I think it would be pointless to start a football program now.
-
Not scared. All we need to do is keep finishing in the Sweet 16 or better for the next couple of years. We currently have good talent and more in the pipeline. I know that is no easy task but doable.
-
For the first time since it was obvious Bob Dukiet was WAY over his head, I'm beginning to worry about our program. We are on the verge of recapturing what we once had -- a perennial Top 10 team -- and now an important components of our success is crumbling out from underneath us.
I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't understand how people keep saying we are on the verge of being a perennial top 10 team, getting the program back to where we were in the Al era, etc. We just made it to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 2003, and we did it as an 11 seed. Let's have 1 year where we finish in the top 10 and then maybe we can think about being there every year. I think we're closer to being a perennial top 25 team than we are top 10.
-
Although I have some concerns and wonder where we'll end up, I'm not scared. If nothing else, the past 15+ years have shown us that Marquette is committed to having a quality basketball program. Marquette did not just get good by accident or because it had a lucky recruiting class. Marquette returned to prominence because the leaders of the University decided that they were going to make that happen (and invested heavily to ensure that it happened). Our conference is not going to determine whether we're a successful program or not -- it might make it more challenging, but it won't be the deciding factor. In other words, we're not going to become Loyola of Chicago unless the administration decides to let that happen. And if they make that decision, no conference affiliation will save us.
-
Zombies
The apocalypse
Zombie Apocalypses
-
Zombies
The apocalypse
Zombie Apocalypses
The dreaded Zombocalypse!
-
First post = http://www.youtube.com/embed/bflYjF90t7c
For the first time since it was obvious Bob Dukiet was WAY over his head, I'm beginning to worry about our program. We are on the verge of recapturing what we once had -- a perennial Top 10 team -- and now an important components of our success is crumbling out from underneath us.
I can count on one hand the number of times we've been ranked in the Top 10 since joining the Big East. Perennial Top 10 teams tend to get past the Sweet 16 more than once every 8 years.
I'm scared because if things don't play out just right, we'll end up another Loyola of Chicago. That's a once-proud program with a national championship 1.5 generations ago that's now an after-thought in the Horizon League.
I'm scared because some of the talk has us grouped with Dayton, St. Louis, Detroit, DePaul and other mid-majors. My God, Milwaukee already has one mid-major. It doesn't need another!
Nothing starts off a rational discussion quite like a worst-case scenario with cherry-picked information. Most of those "CYO Conference" proposals also have us playing Xavier, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Villanova.
I'm scared because Buzz is brining top talent and excelling at Marquette. Can we keep him if we're playing half our games against Valpo, Dayton and Cleveland State?
I see two Horizon League teams. We should ask Butler to see if you can succeed nationally while playing in the Horizon League.
And, yes, I'm concerned that as we move forward, the chances for us to be a competitive, aggressive and "chip on our shoulder" program that slays monsters (such as Badgers, Wolverines, Huskies, Golden Bears, Longhorns, Wildcats, Hoosiers, Bulldogs etc.) diminishes everytime I open this board.
Based on this thread, I can only assume that we'll be the best Cinderella Darling Perennial Top 10 team out there.
Maybe I'm fatalistic, but as my friend Brew points out, football is driving everything!
Thanks, Brew!
I don't begrudge the Jesuits' decision to end Marquette football in 1960. In fact, given the cost/benefit of small college Division 1 football (aka, vanderbilt, Duke etc.), the Jesuits were visionary. But the decision the Jesuits made in 1960 to end football is really hurting our basketball program now.
Those damn visionary jesuits!
Perhaps it is inevitable and an outgrowth of the professionalization and profitability of big-time college athletics, but I sure hope we beat the odds and keep the basketball program the way it is.
I would hope we improve, because last year sucked a lot.
-
And, yes, I'm concerned that as we move forward, the chances for us to be a competitive, aggressive and "chip on our shoulder" program that slays monsters (such as Badgers, Wolverines, Huskies, Golden Bears, Longhorns, Wildcats, Hoosiers, Bulldogs etc.) diminishes everytime I open this board.
For the love of God, then, stop opening this board!
-
I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't understand how people keep saying we are on the verge of being a perennial top 10 team, getting the program back to where we were in the Al era, etc. We just made it to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 2003, and we did it as an 11 seed. Let's have 1 year where we finish in the top 10 and then maybe we can think about being there every year. I think we're closer to being a perennial top 25 team than we are top 10.
+1.
I'm very optimistic about this season and the recruits... but we need to be realistic here.
Long way to go to get to "perennial top 10".
-
+1.
I'm very optimistic about this season and the recruits... but we need to be realistic here.
Long way to go to get to "perennial top 10".
How many perennial top 10 teams have there been over the last 15 years?
EDIT: Appearances in the AP top 10 since 2000:
Duke 90%
KU 66%
UNC 52%
UCONN & Pitt 42%
Florida 41%
MSU 40%
KY, TX & AZ 37%
nobody else cracks one-third.
I suppose it depends on how you define the term, but I see perhaps one "perennial top 10" team since 2000.
-
Personally - I don't have an issue with this thread, or the content of the original post. The Big East implosion is NOT a good thing as everyone here can agree on.
I don't believe the administration at MU has *MUCH* to do with any of the success the MU basketball program has had the last 15 years. It has to do with big time donors like Dick Strong, getting Tom Crean here for 9 years, who got D-Wade, which got us a Final Four, (and the Al McGuire center funded by donors/alums - and not administration) which made entry into the Big East an option. Even though in the Big East, Crean still felt leaving MU for Indiana was a better option.
Fast forward now - we have a GREAT young coach/recruiter - who we know many schools covet, who just turned down a lot of options to return closer to his native home, and coach at a school that has a major football program (stability). Big East has been a huge selling point to recruits - now that it is unraveling - that changes the complexion/intensifies the recruiting challenges MU already faces.
MU will only be as good in hoops as is the quality of its coach. It has nothing to do with administration's commitment to the program, etc. Why did the program begin to fall after KO left and Deane took over? Cause Deane couldn't recruit at a high level. Crean comes in, and recruits well, and program rises again. Buzz carries that same torch forward, and we are in good hands. But now we potentially are losing a big selling point on the recruiting trail.
Yes, I am a little scared - mostly about if Buzz decides the material change in the landscape at Marquette - changes his mind to remain at MU. At that point...look out...and I hope to GOD it doesn't happen.
-
Fast forward now - we have a GREAT young coach/recruiter - who we know many schools covet, who just turned down a lot of options to return closer to his native home, and coach at a school that has a major football program (stability). Big East has been a huge selling point to recruits - now that it is unraveling - that changes the complexion/intensifies the recruiting challenges MU already faces.
Texas A&M's move to the SEC could be headed to court and Oklahoma's future/the Big 12's future is somewhat up in the air. I wouldn't necessarily define any of that as stable.
-
The dreaded Zombocalypse!
Didn't Ziggy Marley write that?
-
Didn't Ziggy Marley write that?
It's on the same album as the Arthur theme song.
Which also scares me
-
Football may be driving things, but we're certainly not alone. Georgetown doesn't have football. Villanova doesn't (yet) have football. St. John's, Providence, DePaul and Seton Hall don't have football. Notre Dame doesn't seem to want to align with others with football. Outside the Big East, Butler and Xavier don't have football. And there are other quality programs we can align with that don't have football.
As long as we stay tied to the teams we have been tied with for the past 6 years, we should be okay. This could be a hiccup, it could set us back a bit, but as I look out my patio door, I see the sky is still intact. I wouldn't bother panicking until there's actually something to panic about.
And even if the Big East dissolves this afternoon, Rutgers and UConn join the ACC, West Virginia joins the SEC, Notre Dame joins the Big Ten, and Louisville and Cincy join the Big 12, we still have a firm foundation of schools for a very good basketball only league. I have a feeling that Providence, St. John's, DePaul, and Georgetown want to stick with Marquette just as much as we want to stick with them.
-
i don't think there is a ton to be scared of. It's makes it tougher, that's for sure. But success breeds success. Just keep winning and we'll be ok. Honestly, this is probably coming at a pretty good time for us. We should be ranked most of the year (hopefully) so if it all goes to hell we are fresh in the mind of the country and recruits. Imagine if we were Depaul and as bad as they have been and suddenly had to go to a basketball-only conference and try to build. This is not an ideal situation, but we are still in a manageable position.
EDIT: I also want to point out how huge it was that we extended Buzz and included a HUGE buyout. thanks cottingham...
-
I know things are going to change.
I do not know that I would say I am scared, but this is what I worry about.
The number one thing is that the NCAA tournament in the future is ruined by this. That would be the absolute worse thing by far. I still want MU to be in it and to be able to root for the little guy. Change that and college basketball will be the same as college football to me, which is I rarely watch it and I generally do not care about it.
The second thing is that enough Big East football schools decide to leave resulting in the conference being disbanded, which means the Big East is done after this year. As it is now the league goes on for this season and two more seasons with Syracuse and Pitt and they have to pay the buyout. No buyout, if league is disbanded.
The third thing is that there is change in our current unsigned commitments do to this.
I know a lot of posters look down on Xavier, but if we end up in a similar conference, I would not mind having their success. Therefore, I am not really worried(sacred) about where we finally end up.
-
Change, yes..scared...NO. Just a product of our times. Guess the original poster here would rather live in a quieter, more collegial era...which was when...?? Change brings challenges and I believe MU is up to those challenges.
-
How many perennial top 10 teams have there been over the last 15 years?
EDIT: Appearances in the AP top 10 since 2000:
Duke 90%
KU 66%
UNC 52%
UCONN & Pitt 42%
Florida 41%
MSU 40%
KY, TX & AZ 37%
nobody else cracks one-third.
I suppose it depends on how you define the term, but I see perhaps one "perennial top 10" team since 2000.
Yea, I have no idea how the original poster was qualifying "perennial top 10", but in my mind we have a long ways to go no matter how technical we get about the definition.
-
Texas A&M's move to the SEC could be headed to court and Oklahoma's future/the Big 12's future is somewhat up in the air. I wouldn't necessarily define any of that as stable.
Sure...but both those schools are rock solid as far as being included in BCS/power conferences...and always will be due to having football.
-
Sure...but both those schools are rock solid as far as being included in BCS/power conferences...and always will be due to having football.
It's a lot more than football. A&M is one of the biggest universities in the country. Oklahoma is one of the most successful football programs of all time. They have been a part of the BCS as long as there's been a BCS. Both boast over 30,000 students and are massive public universities. Saying that it's due to having football is like saying Marquette would be in the same position had they not discontinued football, or that Houston is because they do have football. Football is just one piece of the puzzle to making a school as rock solid as A&M or OU are.
-
It's a lot more than football. A&M is one of the biggest universities in the country. Oklahoma is one of the most successful football programs of all time. They have been a part of the BCS as long as there's been a BCS. Both boast over 30,000 students and are massive public universities. Saying that it's due to having football is like saying Marquette would be in the same position had they not discontinued football, or that Houston is because they do have football. Football is just one piece of the puzzle to making a school as rock solid as A&M or OU are.
Also, if MU still had FB, it would most likely be mid-major at best and basketball would have taken a different direction over the decades...?
-
Also, if MU still had FB, it would most likely be mid-major at best and basketball would have taken a different direction over the decades...?
I have no idea. None of us do and none of us ever will because it's just conjecture. But lamenting it and acting as if we know that we'd be in some pie-in-the-sky situation just isn't worth it.
-
Personally - I don't have an issue with this thread, or the content of the original post. The Big East implosion is NOT a good thing as everyone here can agree on.
I don't believe the administration at MU has *MUCH* to do with any of the success the MU basketball program has had the last 15 years. It has to do with big time donors like Dick Strong, getting Tom Crean here for 9 years, who got D-Wade, which got us a Final Four, (and the Al McGuire center funded by donors/alums - and not administration) which made entry into the Big East an option. Even though in the Big East, Crean still felt leaving MU for Indiana was a better option.
Fast forward now - we have a GREAT young coach/recruiter - who we know many schools covet, who just turned down a lot of options to return closer to his native home, and coach at a school that has a major football program (stability). Big East has been a huge selling point to recruits - now that it is unraveling - that changes the complexion/intensifies the recruiting challenges MU already faces.
MU will only be as good in hoops as is the quality of its coach. It has nothing to do with administration's commitment to the program, etc. Why did the program begin to fall after KO left and Deane took over? Cause Deane couldn't recruit at a high level. Crean comes in, and recruits well, and program rises again. Buzz carries that same torch forward, and we are in good hands. But now we potentially are losing a big selling point on the recruiting trail.
Yes, I am a little scared - mostly about if Buzz decides the material change in the landscape at Marquette - changes his mind to remain at MU. At that point...look out...and I hope to GOD it doesn't happen.
I suppose we'll agree to disagree on the importance of the administration's commitment to the basketball program. I certainly agree that it's essential to have a good coach -- and I think that we've got one -- but we need an administration that is committed to keep a quality program. They stepped up to the plate and offered Buzz an initial contract that arguably was more than he was worth at the time because they saw something in him (and it appears they were right). They've doubled down on his contract since then. You can credit donors and alumni for building the Al, but it never happens without the support of the the administration. In my opinion, you severely underestimate the importance of having an administration that is committed to having an elite basketball program.
-
Also, if MU still had FB, it would most likely be mid-major at best and basketball would have taken a different direction over the decades...?
This is a good point I hadn't thought about before. If we had football all along, there's a good chance we'd be in the MAC or MVC for all sports right now.
-
I suppose we'll agree to disagree on the importance of the administration's commitment to the basketball program. I certainly agree that it's essential to have a good coach -- and I think that we've got one -- but we need an administration that is committed to keep a quality program. They stepped up to the plate and offered Buzz an initial contract that arguably was more than he was worth at the time because they saw something in him (and it appears they were right). They've doubled down on his contract since then. You can credit donors and alumni for building the Al, but it never happens without the support of the the administration. In my opinion, you severely underestimate the importance of having an administration that is committed to having an elite basketball program.
You certainly could be right. I've never been privy to any of the administration's meetings with regard to program funding/commitment/etc. I probably do underestimate Fr. Wild's impact, etc. However, in this day and age, if it is not ABUNDANTLY clear to an administrator at a university that Athletics plays a HUGE part in "brand/university recognition,' that administrator would have to be an idiot. Having strong basketball/football teams is the Number 1 way to get exposure for your university - and if the teams suck - well, they never get any mention in the press.
MU's applications for admissions SOARED after the Final Four appearance, and the same has held true for Butler, and other schools after their strong tournament runs.
Guess I just feel that the administration at MU would have to be a HUGE group of idiots to NOT invest heavily in what has easily been MU's largest claim to fame (at least on a national level) - Men's Basketball.
-
12. Broken condoms.
-
Agree with Ners, the loss of some of our "verbal commitments" is a real possibility if the Big East loses it's attraction as the best conference for basketball.
-
12A 1B 1C. Broken condoms.
Fixed
-
However, in this day and age, if it is not ABUNDANTLY clear to an administrator at a university that Athletics plays a HUGE part in "brand/university recognition,' that administrator would have to be an idiot...
Guess I just feel that the administration at MU would have to be a HUGE group of idiots to NOT invest heavily in what has easily been MU's largest claim to fame (at least on a national level) - Men's Basketball.
The thing is, I think there a lot of idiots in administration. Never forget, someone thought it was a good idea to hire Bob Dukiet (to put things into coaching terms, as you rightly do).
-
3. 4never's windowless van.
7. Carrie Underwood
8. Trevor Mbakwe.
-
9. Short suit coat sleeves
(http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/231893307.jpg)
-
so the question comes down to...do recruits pick us for the big east or for buzz? I think buzz, and we are okay. The big east helps, but our guys have a personal relationship with buzz. We keep him, we are okay. I just worry for the fans that want him gone.
-
9. Short suit coat sleeves
(http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/231893307.jpg)
10. And extra, extra, extra long ties.
-
11. Brazilian eyebrows
(http://vthumb.ak.fbcdn.net/hvthumb-ak-snc6/245949_644159561983_568135290233_28280_2056_b.jpg)
-
Looks s hit-faced, with a bad haircut (per usual).
-
MU will only be as good in hoops as is the quality of its coach. It has nothing to do with administration's commitment to the program, etc.
Um, didn't the administration fire Deane and hire Crean? And hire Buzz and then everyone said it was nuts? Revisionist historians. Gotta love 'em.
-
Um, didn't the administration fire Deane and hire Crean? And hire Buzz and then everyone said it was nuts? Revisionist historians. Gotta love 'em.
Sure - Guess my viewpoint of University "Administration" is not the Athletic Director position. Anyone could see MU was going to hell in a hand basket and fast with Deane as the coach. I was there at the time and very close to the program. Getting rid of Deane wasn't any stroke of genius...it HAD to be done.
Hiring Crean was a home run hire - and Bill Cords deserves credit for that. Cottingham bringing Buzz on as coach took a good deal of courage - but at very least he had 1 year of contact with Buzz, saw his work ethic, recruiting talent, etc. It is VERY clear to virtually anyone with an eye for talent - that Buzz has the "it" factor.