Seth Davis: Barro "uninspired"

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Is it me, or was Barro the least of our problems against Louisville? I admit we could use some more talented big men, but to point the finger at Ousmane seems silly to me. How has he been "uninspired?" He's not getting the minutes he has in the past. I'm starting to think the not starting is some kind of misguided motivational ploy.

And frankly, I think it's unfair to blame Barro and Burke for failing to do what they're probably not capable of doing. Honestly, can you blame them for not being able to keep up with Padgett? Even DePaul's big men are far more talented. I feel like the continued finger pointing at our big men -- and yes, Crean is guilty of this -- is like blaming your daughter for the color of her eyes. 

• It was a great sign for Marquette to get a season-high 19 points and 10 rebounds from 6-10 senior Ousmanne Barro in last Saturday's win at Cincinnati. Barro is the Golden Eagles' only bona fide big man, but he has been playing pretty uninspired basketball for most of the season. He followed up that performance with only eight points and six rebounds in Monday night's loss to Louisville, so it's not clear whether he's turned the corner yet.
PLEASE NOTE: "Only bona fide big man." Why doesn't he start? "Only" eight points and six rebounds. The guy only played 16 freaking minutes!!!  Our "starter" played 15 minutes, had zero points and 2 rebounds. 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/seth_davis/02/06/duke.unc/index.html

[Big Papi]

I would like to see Barro get 25 minutes a game and why he doesn't get at least 20 minutes a game is a head scratcher.

I would also like to see us do a full court press with Trend playing the 5 as it feels like we need to shake things up a bit.

[chapman]

Agree 100%.  If anything, Barro had some of the better minutes against Louisville.  He wasn't in foul trouble (which may mean he could have been more aggressive defensively), and he should have played at least 10 more minutes. and he probably would have had a double-double to show for it.  I guess the only thing I agree with from Seth Davis is that "it's not quite clear whether he's turned the corner yet".  But Barro needs to start-you can't expect to score points early with guys like Burke on the floor (14 points in 10 conference games).

[The Lens]

If Seth Davis wrote it, chances are Tom Crean said it.

Seth is one of TC's guys.

I guess TC is still mad at Ooze for using part of his summer VACATION to go HOME to his FAMILY in AFRICA. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

That honestly could be why he's not starting. Monday he must have checked in for Burke after about 2 1/2 minutes.

[NavinRJohnson]

If you heard TC after the game - it is pretty obvious why Barro only played 16 minutes. He was extremely disappointed with Barro's play on the defensive end (as he was with the whole team). MacIlvane pointed out Barro's play as a positive, and pointed to some carry over from the Cincinatti game. TC quickly stopped/corrected him, pointing out that he saw absolutely no carryover defensively - especially ralated to rotations and communication. There's a reason Barro is not starting, and that's it.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

If Seth Davis wrote it, chances are Tom Crean said it.

Seth is one of TC's guys.

I guess TC is still mad at Ooze for using part of his summer VACATION to go HOME to his FAMILY in AFRICA. 

This is a new low. Crean micromanages every portion of this basketball program. Crean is not Satan's brother to the point where he is going to allow Ousmane Barro to see his family over the summer only to punish him during his last season to be some sort of passive aggressive 10 year-old girl (or Marquette message board poster).

Look, Crean has unnatural carnal knowledgeed up royally with Barro this season but do you really believe he would do this on purpose to "get back" at a kid?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

So you're saying it's not possible that there is a rule about the amount of off season workouts you can miss without losing a starting position?

What an outrageous suggestion!!

[Chili]

So you're saying it's not possible that there is a rule about the amount of off season workouts you can miss without losing a starting position?

What an outrageous suggestion!!

[Pardner]

If you heard TC after the game - it is pretty obvious why Barro only played 16 minutes. He was extremely disappointed with Barro's play on the defensive end (as he was with the whole team). MacIlvane pointed out Barro's play as a positive, and pointed to some carry over from the Cincinnati game. TC quickly stopped/corrected him, pointing out that he saw absolutely no carryover defensively - especially related to rotations and communication. There's a reason Barro is not starting, and that's it.

May be....before it was fear of fouling out.  One pattern that bothers me is the hole we dig to start the games...something like 6 games in a row, 9 out of 10.  Pitino treated every possession as valuable the other night, using up his TO's to stop runs, trying to slow down our guards with the trap, etc.  Check these stats out, understanding that Ooze and Burke, while they really "fit" different roles (muscle vs. disruptor), are both asked to play the 5 by TC.

Total Season vs BE stats:

Burke:  Minutes (14 vs. 14), FG% (.581 vs. .357), Rebs (3.2 vs. 2.5) and Pts (3.2 vs. 2.5)

Ooze:  Minutes (18 vs. 18), FG % (.589 vs. .605), Rebs (5.1 vs. 5.2) and Pts (5.5 vs. 5.9)

Simply put, Ooze is more productive per minute, especially in the BE (where Burke's role doesn't match up as well--and is probably more suited for coming off the bench).  In our BE wins, Ooze averages 7.5 pts.  

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

So you're saying it's not possible that there is a rule about the amount of off season workouts you can miss without losing a starting position?

What an outrageous suggestion!!

Exactly what I wrote. 

Let's not be such a dolt over this. Regardless of the rules in place, Ousmane Barro is a unique situation. This is a person who has seen his family, what, 3 times in the last 5 years? I know TC is crazy about the program and workouts, yadda yadda yadda but I can't imagine he held Barro hostage concerning seeing his family in Senegal. It never came down to stay and be a starter or see your family and be ostracized. If it did, unnatural carnal knowledge the non-existent AD, Father Wild should have stepped in and fired Crean on the spot.

[79Warrior]

If you heard TC after the game - it is pretty obvious why Barro only played 16 minutes. He was extremely disappointed with Barro's play on the defensive end (as he was with the whole team). MacIlvane pointed out Barro's play as a positive, and pointed to some carry over from the Cincinatti game. TC quickly stopped/corrected him, pointing out that he saw absolutely no carryover defensively - especially ralated to rotations and communication. There's a reason Barro is not starting, and that's it.

So because TC does not like what he sees, we will play Burke, who is borderline useless. No offense, terrible hands etc. Let me cut off my nose to spite my face. Burke is not an option. The guys just does not have it. Barro is a senior, obviously our best option on the floor. Go with him and see how we do. The mind games by TC this year are not working.

[NavinRJohnson]

Barro is a senior, obviously our best option on the floor.

Funny, that's just what Crean said...Not sure if you saw the layup drill UL was running for much of that game, but its tough to say that we were worse of with Burke out there.

[The Lens]

If you heard TC after the game - it is pretty obvious why Barro only played 16 minutes. He was extremely disappointed with Barro's play on the defensive end (as he was with the whole team). MacIlvane pointed out Barro's play as a positive, and pointed to some carry over from the Cincinatti game. TC quickly stopped/corrected him, pointing out that he saw absolutely no carryover defensively - especially ralated to rotations and communication. There's a reason Barro is not starting, and that's it.

TC correcting MacIlvaine about defense?  Wow...now that's a new low. 

A couple weeks back on this or the Dodds board the Summer / Africa situation was reported and received as nearly fact.  Plus I was at the Chicago Summer Luncheon and TC was very very rough on Ooze (who was not in attendance). 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I find it curious that our coach consistently publicly BBQ's certain players -- Chapman, Fitzgerald, Amoroso (who he blamed for the Alabama loss), and now Barro and to a lesser extent Burke - but coddles our three juniors as if they were china dolls.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I find it curious that our coach consistently publicly BBQ's certain players -- Chapman, Fitzgerald, Amoroso (who he blamed for the Alabama loss), and now Barro and to a lesser extent Burke - but coddles our three juniors as if they were china dolls.

I found it interesting that Mike Deane did the same thing with Aaron Hutchinson (who should have been kicked off the team if he wasn't the best player on it) and Kevin O'Neill did the same thing with some of his stars (but laid into the ones that weren't playing to their potential...Shannon Smith, etc).


This has been going on for many years...why is it curious to you?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It's curious that the grunts get all the criticism -- Hutchins wasn't exactly a grunt -- while the guys with all the turnovers and bad shots get trips to New York and the cover of the pocket schedule.

[NavinRJohnson]

I find it curious that our coach consistently publicly BBQ's certain players -- Chapman, Fitzgerald, Amoroso (who he blamed for the Alabama loss), and now Barro and to a lesser extent Burke - but coddles our three juniors as if they were china dolls.

You mean like when he benched Dominic James and Jerel McNeal in the second half against USF?

[bilsu]

What Crean said is that when you play a zone tne center has to direct the players on court. He is like the point guard on defense. Barro was not doing that. I expected a lot out of Barro this year and he has mostly been non- existent. I think missing the summer hurt him. Crean starts players based on practices. I think Barro expected Mbakwe to start and was just satisfied to play out his senior year. He did not put in the effort and that is why he does not start. If you look at history it appears that Crean tries to motivate returning players by telling them they will lose their starting job to the incoming recruit. The tactic does not work. He recruits Novak and Blankson leaves instead of competing. He recruits the 3 guards and Mason leaves instead of competing. He recruits Mbakwe and Barro stops trying and goes home for the summer. Starting jobs should belong to seniors unless they are beaten out. UW is successful because they generally do not play first year players. It actually amazes me that more of their players do not transfer out. However, they are like McGuire teams were the seniors are the stars and that is promised to the young players who are not playing.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

If you heard TC after the game - it is pretty obvious why Barro only played 16 minutes. He was extremely disappointed with Barro's play on the defensive end (as he was with the whole team). MacIlvane pointed out Barro's play as a positive, and pointed to some carry over from the Cincinatti game. TC quickly stopped/corrected him, pointing out that he saw absolutely no carryover defensively - especially ralated to rotations and communication. There's a reason Barro is not starting, and that's it.

TC correcting MacIlvaine about defense?  Wow...now that's a new low. 

A couple weeks back on this or the Dodds board the Summer / Africa situation was reported and received as nearly fact.   Plus I was at the Chicago Summer Luncheon and TC was very very rough on Ooze (who was not in attendance). 

What does that mean, received as fact? You mean people wrote that Crean told Barro if he went to see his family he would lose his starting spot? And who are these people that would be in on that conversation?

It just doesn't make sense.

[Pardner]

What Crean said is that when you play a zone tne center has to direct the players on court. He is like the point guard on defense. Barro was not doing that. I expected a lot out of Barro this year and he has mostly been non- existent. I think missing the summer hurt him. Crean starts players based on practices. I think Barro expected Mbakwe to start and was just satisfied to play out his senior year. He did not put in the effort and that is why he does not start. If you look at history it appears that Crean tries to motivate returning players by telling them they will lose their starting job to the incoming recruit. The tactic does not work. He recruits Novak and Blankson leaves instead of competing. He recruits the 3 guards and Mason leaves instead of competing. He recruits Mbakwe and Barro stops trying and goes home for the summer. Starting jobs should belong to seniors unless they are beaten out. UW is successful because they generally do not play first year players. It actually amazes me that more of their players do not transfer out. However, they are like McGuire teams were the seniors are the stars and that is promised to the young players who are not playing.

Great post Bilsu.  Very insightful and this explains a lot for me.

My statement on this then:  We had lay-up practice for the past 10 BE games BEFORE Ooze even gets in the game.  And, we are clearly more productive with him in the game overall.  Is Ooze that demotivated in practices and in the games at this point in the season that TC is willing to dig such a big hole with these slow starts?  If so, then why is OB even on the team?  This is not one game we are talking about here--it has been every game but one that TC hasn't put his "most talented" line-up on the floor (not saying "best" team).  I don't see a lack of effort from the stands from Ooze--yes, I do see the shortcomings--so there must be a lot of drama going on behind the scenes if TC shut off Mac's comments. 

And, yes, I see TC may need to motivate in different ways to get the most out of his players.  But, this one ain't going away folks.  The natives are restless. 

[bartmiller#1]

Remember when he suspended McNeal for a preseason game? 

No one gets a free ride from Crean.  He might not be all people build him up to be, but he's consistent in his treatment of everyone on the roster. 

[Eye]

That honestly could be why he's not starting. Monday he must have checked in for Burke after about 2 1/2 minutes.

I do remember saying to my buddy sitting next to me Monday, "If he's only going to be in there for two minutes (referring to Burke), why even bother to start him." So your time recollection is correct PRN.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I find it curious that our coach consistently publicly BBQ's certain players -- Chapman, Fitzgerald, Amoroso (who he blamed for the Alabama loss), and now Barro and to a lesser extent Burke - but coddles our three juniors as if they were china dolls.

You mean like when he benched Dominic James and Jerel McNeal in the second half against USF?

No...I mean when he was quoted in the papers criticizing Chapman, Fitzgerald, Amoroso and Barro.

[Eye]

If you look at history it appears that Crean tries to motivate returning players by telling them they will lose their starting job to the incoming recruit. The tactic does not work. He recruits Novak and Blankson leaves instead of competing. He recruits the 3 guards and Mason leaves instead of competing. He recruits Mbakwe and Barro stops trying and goes home for the summer. Starting jobs should belong to seniors unless they are beaten out. UW is successful because they generally do not play first year players. It actually amazes me that more of their players do not transfer out. However, they are like McGuire teams were the seniors are the stars and that is promised to the young players who are not playing.

That's one of the best posts I've ever read on this board Bilsu. Kind of like the philosophy I've always used with younger players while coaching Legion baseball. For a freshmen or sophomore to make our varsity roster, they have to be one of our best nine players or one of our best couple of pitchers. If not, even if they're the 10th or 11th-best player on the roster or lesser starter, and they'd be a bench player or reliever, the upperclassman starts, and they join us for the playoffs.

Along those lines, it would have been interesting to see how that would have applied with Christopherson and any of the five guys in front of him had he not opted for the surgery in the fall.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Don't forget Matthews being handed Chapman's starting role and Crean then saying Chapman wasn't "acting like a senior" before the season started. Maybe if you treated him like a senior, he would've acted like one.

I know full well that Wesley is probably a better player than Joe was, but not as a freshman. There is no reason he couldn't have come off the bench for significant minutes. As it turns out, WM got hurt, but Joe should have started from the get-go.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

By the way, this was about 7 months after a puking, weakend Chapman fought through the flu to lead MU past St. Louis when wins were extremely tough to come by. Game of his life and a testament to his heart!

[bma725]

Say what you want about it being wrong, but it worked with Chapman.  The kid got his head out of his rear and really improved as a senior.  His defense was markedly better, his rebounding improved, assists to turnover ratio improved, FG, FT and 3 Point% all increased as well.  Some kids need that kind of motivation.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

Now this digresses to another issue: we constantly nail Crean about not recruiting talent to complement the existing players but yet we also believe that starting jobs should belong to Seniors and that first year players should rarely play and learn their roles? That seems opposite. How are we going to recruit the talent that will satisfy us if we, and they, know they won't get the opportunity to play straight away?

People will point to Wisconsin since they are the closest program but really those prospects are almost so unique that they only fit a system like Ryan's. Besides, how frustrating does it have to be for a player to sit on the bench for a Big Ten season when you know only 2 of the games will be competitive and there should be ample garbage time to get in and play.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Rarely play? I specifically said Wesley could have gotten significant minutes off the bench. If a player is clearly the best option -- as I believe DJ and McNeal were as freshman, fine. Start them. I don't think that was the case with Chapman who had been contributing since his freshman year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's curious that the grunts get all the criticism -- Hutchins wasn't exactly a grunt -- while the guys with all the turnovers and bad shots get trips to New York and the cover of the pocket schedule.

I would assume the players taken to New York would be players the media is interested in talking to at the B.E. media day.  Those would be your star players typically.   Those guys with "all the turnovers and bad shots" are also the guys with all the assists, steals, and top point scorers too.

As for the grunts getting all the criticism, I don't keep score on that but if you say so. 

My guess is that a coach will deal with different players differently, just like O'Neill would publicly kill Robb Logtermann but would treat other players different.  Or how Deane would treat Richard Shaw vs Chris Crawford.  Coach's know their players and use different approaches to each.

However, I have certainly heard Crean shower a ton of praise on "stars" and role players and criticism as well.  Whether it's more slighted toward some then others, I cannot say.

[ecompt]

If Crean is punishing Barro for going home over the summer that's assinine and incredibly short-sighted.

[4everwarriors]

adjectives seem appropriate.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Don't forget Matthews being handed Chapman's starting role and Crean then saying Chapman wasn't "acting like a senior" before the season started. Maybe if you treated him like a senior, he would've acted like one.

I know full well that Wesley is probably a better player than Joe was, but not as a freshman. There is no reason he couldn't have come off the bench for significant minutes. As it turns out, WM got hurt, but Joe should have started from the get-go.

I actually like favoring seniors as well... but when a player is better, he should start. Wes was good enough as a frosh. to start.

AND

In another thread  (titled "we are simply not talented"), you claim MU doesn't have enough talent. Well, MU didn't have much talent 3 years ago. Crean brought in 3 talented players and started them, now you complain about it.

You can't complain about not having talent, but then complain when new, more talented players come in and take minutes away from less talented upperclassmen.

You just don't like Crean... it doesn't matter how he conducts his business.


I definitely understand the frustration of all of the fans, but it's crazy to think that the second best coach at MU is taking so much heat.

He's not immune to criticism, but the sweeping generalizations regarding his lack of performance are shocking.

If MU blows out ND, is everybody going to come here and provide glowing reports of Crean going back to the final 4? Nope.

If MU loses again, we're in for another week of "Crean can't recruit a big man... etc. etc."


Fans are a curious bunch.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It's curious that the grunts get all the criticism -- Hutchins wasn't exactly a grunt -- while the guys with all the turnovers and bad shots get trips to New York and the cover of the pocket schedule.

I would assume the players taken to New York would be players the media is interested in talking to at the B.E. media day. 

I'm talking about before their freshman year...when they hadn't played a minute at Marquette. Not a single reporter was interested in talking to them. This year? Of course, it made perfect sense.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

It's curious that the grunts get all the criticism -- Hutchins wasn't exactly a grunt -- while the guys with all the turnovers and bad shots get trips to New York and the cover of the pocket schedule.

I would assume the players taken to New York would be players the media is interested in talking to at the B.E. media day. 

I'm talking about before their freshman year...when they hadn't played a minute at Marquette. Not a single reporter was interested in talking to them. This year? Of course, it made perfect sense.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I have a friend who works for the Big East conference and he told me that the media found it curious that Crean brought Freshmen (especially with MU being a new school) but they were touted to be a pretty good bunch. They didn't fawn over them but they certainly didn't ignore them as you suggest. Again, it's more in the middle of the two.

[HarveysWallbangers]

I think Novak went to that one, too, but there's no doubt that sent an awful message to the rest of that team.

[mu-rara]

I am anything but a Crean hater, but he needs to be accountable.

His teams always struggle at the end of the year (exception 2003) and he has mismanaged the recruiting process (no decent big men, all guards)

I will be the first to say I'm wrong if this season turns around, but TC has had 9 years.  Its not like he hasn't had time.

I am a Warrior all the way, and if TC turns it around, I'll be the happiest guy around,  but the time is NOW!

[AlumKCof93]

What Crean said is that when you play a zone tne center has to direct the players on court. He is like the point guard on defense. Barro was not doing that. I expected a lot out of Barro this year and he has mostly been non- existent. I think missing the summer hurt him. Crean starts players based on practices. I think Barro expected Mbakwe to start and was just satisfied to play out his senior year. He did not put in the effort and that is why he does not start. If you look at history it appears that Crean tries to motivate returning players by telling them they will lose their starting job to the incoming recruit. The tactic does not work. He recruits Novak and Blankson leaves instead of competing. He recruits the 3 guards and Mason leaves instead of competing. He recruits Mbakwe and Barro stops trying and goes home for the summer. Starting jobs should belong to seniors unless they are beaten out. UW is successful because they generally do not play first year players. It actually amazes me that more of their players do not transfer out. However, they are like McGuire teams were the seniors are the stars and that is promised to the young players who are not playing.

If this is true, it also explains why we have lack veteran leadership.  By the time a player is a senior, he typically plays with a certain calm.  Our seniors play scared of making a mistake or missing a shot.  If this is how Crean is motivating his returning players, now I know why they play that way. 

[bartmiller#1]

Chapman as a senior was not as good as Matthews as a frosh.  It's that simple.

No one has entitlement minutes.  Same reason Fitz doesn't start at the 4 this year.  Lazar is better. 

As for the media day, I don't know.  I guess I wonder why it matters who Crean brings.  I suspect that it means more to us than it does to the players on the team.  Novak was at the first BE Media Day.  He was obviously the most well-known player on the team.  The incoming frosh guards were widely touted as being a very good class.  The Three Amigos and all that.  Knowing Crean, he was probably trying to create some sizzle around the program as it entered a group of teams that are mostly basketball titans. 

Not saying it's right or wrong (or even accurate), but it makes sense.

Should he have also taken Grimm to NYC?  Chapman was a solid player.  He worked hard.  He played in a lot of big games.  I liked him a lot.  He played his guts out in the game you mentioned when he had the flu, but even with all of that-- it doesn't add up to make him a certain starter or the guy who gets taken to media day. 

He was a glue guy. 

[HarveysWallbangers]

The point is that Novak should have been the only player taken there. I'm not sure those kids had earned that kind of treatment right out of high school...as a matter of fact, I'm not sure they have to this day.

That was 3 years ago, so discussing it now is probably irrelevant. But it may have simply set a tone of entitlement for them and resentment by others.

Something to consider, since other threads are discussing something being "not right." 

[bartmiller#1]

I don't see where D.J., McNeal, and Matthews act entitled.

By all accounts, they work their butts off.  They play tough defense.  They appear to be good teammates and support their teammates when they're on the bench.  Wes plays out of position about 90% of the time.

You see what you want to see, I guess.  But I don't think our recent problems indicate that the 3 junior guards are entitled.  Am I missing something? 

[RJax55]

I don't see where D.J., McNeal, and Matthews act entitled.

By all accounts, they work their butts off.  They play tough defense.  They appear to be good teammates and support their teammates when they're on the bench.  Wes plays out of position about 90% of the time.

You see what you want to see, I guess.  But I don't think our recent problems indicate that the 3 junior guards are entitled.  Am I missing something? 

Agree, 100%. As for Barro, Crean was right to criticize him against Louisville. He did a horrible job communicating when MU went zone. As pointed out early, when they go 2-3, Barro must be the quarterback of the defense and he did a very poor job on Monday night.

I agree with Crean that playing time should be earned in practice. I don't care if you are a senior or not. If Barro didn't work hard over summer because he thought Trevor was going to take his starting spot, well that Barro's fault, not Crean. Its up to Barro to embrace that challenge and work harder, instead of backing down.

[SqueallyDRyan]

I love what OOZe does offensively for us but there is no denying that on Monday he looked like he had never played a zone defense before