Butler loses 2nd player on team this year....Stevens recruit

[ChicosBailBonds]

Second Stevens recruit didn't pan out and left the team.  Smeathers transferred earlier this year to Mount Saint Mary's.  Now Rene Castro will transfer as well.  Both were Stevens recruits.

[GGGG]

Time will tell if Butler was a good choice for membership...I'm beginning to have my doubts.

[keefe]

Time will tell if Butler was a good choice for membership...I'm beginning to have my doubts.

Some might say the same thing about Marquette this year...

[PGsHeroes32]

Some might say the same thing about Marquette this year...

they would be legitimately psychotic.

[GGGG]

Some might say the same thing about Marquette this year...

Marquette has a sustained record of excellence in the BE.

Two years ago Butler was in the Horizon League.   Yeah they have won that league a number of times, but most of those schools are more like UWM and Loyola than they are like Georgetown and Villanova.  I wonder if taking the leap from the HL...to the A10....to the BE was too much too soon.

As I said, time will tell.

[keefe]

Marquette has a sustained record of excellence in the BE.

Two years ago Butler was in the Horizon League.   Yeah they have won that league a number of times, but most of those schools are more like UWM and Loyola than they are like Georgetown and Villanova.  I wonder if taking the leap from the HL...to the A10....to the BE was too much too soon.

As I said, time will tell.

The key variables for their inclusion were academics, primacy of & commitment to basketball, and proximity. I think they are a solid add on that basis. If we wanted just #2 we would have invited UNLV.

They are having an off year but I feel they get a pass for being in transition. This is a program that has weathered successfully 3 previous coaching changes through adherence to a strict set of standards for managing their program. If recent history is indicative then Butler will be just fine. I am proud to have them in our stable as Butler is an excellent school committed to winning the right way.

[Avenue Commons]

Even if Butler was an outlier because of Brad Stevens, the Big East brand alone should provide Butler a platform to succeed. I think they'll be fine in the long run.

[PGsHeroes32]

The key variables for their inclusion were academics, primacy of & commitment to basketball, and proximity. I think they are a solid add on that basis. If we wanted just #2 we would have invited UNLV.

They are having an off year but I feel they get a pass for being in transition. This is a program that has weathered successfully 3 previous coaching changes through adherence to a strict set of standards for managing their program. If recent history is indicative then Butler will be just fine. I am proud to have them in our stable as Butler is an excellent school committed to winning the right way.

yeah but youre comment said that some may say the same about MU.

When we have sustained excellence and even in a down year of our own....happen to be tied for 3rd in the conference.

Like I said, if anyone actually said they were rethinking MU being a part of this conference they would be immediately sent to the nearest psych ward.

Us Nova Gtown are this league. And always will be.

[Pakuni]

This again?
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Brad Stevens (Todd Lickliter).
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Todd Lickliter (Thad Matta)
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Thad Matta (Barry Collier).

I'm far less concerned with Butler's ability to build a winner in the new Big East than I am Seton Hall or Providence or DePaul. Is anyone really shocked that a team that lost its top three scores AND its coach from last year is having a bit of a rough go at it?
Would we be better off with Dayton right now?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Time will tell if Butler was a good choice for membership...I'm beginning to have my doubts.

I think they might be ok, but one of the complaints about Stevens is that he couldn't recruit very well.  Certainly has some coaching chops, but their classes coming off the NCAA runs weren't what was expected, and the talent not good this year.  I've had more than a few folks in the industry say Brad got out because he knew they were going to get smoked this year in this conference because the recruits weren't capable.  They said this prior to the season starting.

Brad isn't stupid.  

[keefe]

yeah but youre comment said that some may say the same about MU.

When we have sustained excellence and even in a down year of our own....happen to be tied for 3rd in the conference.

Like I said, if anyone actually said they were rethinking MU being a part of this conference they would be immediately sent to the nearest psych ward.

Us Nova Gtown are this league. And always will be.

Hayward

Relax. It was hyperbole. As for there being a Big 3 bent on world domination I would caution against arrogance. I am sure Hitler was feeling pretty smug up until the 8th AF started destroying Germany city by city and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

[bradley center bat]

Marquette has a sustained record of excellence in the BE.

Two years ago Butler was in the Horizon League.   Yeah they have won that league a number of times, but most of those schools are more like UWM and Loyola than they are like Georgetown and Villanova.  I wonder if taking the leap from the HL...to the A10....to the BE was too much too soon.

As I said, time will tell.

Butler had many sweet 16 runs, well before the back to back Final Fours. Even went they went to their 2nd Final Four, UWM won the league.

[PGsHeroes32]

Hayward

Relax. It was hyperbole. As for there being a Big 3 bent on world domination I would caution against arrogance. I am sure Hitler was feeling pretty smug up until the 8th AF started destroying Germany city by city and there wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

I am relaxed. I provided simple reasoning.

If anything you need to relax. You just used world domination and Hitler as a way to disprove Marquette being 1 of the 3 headlining teams in the Big East Men's Basketball conference.

[keefe]

Brad isn't stupid.  

He was a single, successful guy who needed his freedom, But hardly stupid.

[Goose]

Butler will be the Butler we all knew for most of their history. Not surprised by this at all. Schools like Butler or SLU can have a run but long term not a program that you look to be an anchor in a conference.

[GGGG]

Butler had many sweet 16 runs, well before the back to back Final Fours. Even went they went to their 2nd Final Four, UWM won the league.

Actually they had 3...1962, 2003, 2007.  If that counts as "many" in your eyes, then that's fine.

This again?
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Brad Stevens (Todd Lickliter).
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Todd Lickliter (Thad Matta)
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Thad Matta (Barry Collier).

Again...by winning a lower level league.

[willie warrior]

Time will tell if Butler was a good choice for membership...I'm beginning to have my doubts.

Give it time. remember, they beat us once this year.

[GGGG]

The key variables for their inclusion were academics, primacy of & commitment to basketball, and proximity. I think they are a solid add on that basis. If we wanted just #2 we would have invited UNLV.

There were a couple other schools that fit those criteria.  The question is over the course of time, do they fit that criteria better than schools like Dayton or SLU.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I wonder why Chicos started this thread.... Couldn't possibly be because Crean is sh*tting the bed and the IU fans are dreaming of Brad Stevens, could it? Desperate straw grabbing at its finest.

[keefe]

Actually they had 3...1962, 2003, 2007.  If that counts as "many" in your eyes, then that's fine.



Again...by winning a lower level league.

Since 1980 they have made as more deep runs in the Dance than Marquette.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I wonder why Chicos started this thread.... Couldn't possibly be because Crean is sh*tting the bed and the IU fans are dreaming of Brad Stevens, could it? Desperate straw grabbing at its finest.

You got it

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I wonder why Chicos started this thread.... Couldn't possibly be because Crean is sh*tting the bed and the IU fans are dreaming of Brad Stevens, could it? Desperate straw grabbing at its finest.

Dude, you have the world's biggest hate woody for CBB. There was no need for this post. This thread had nothing to do with Crean or Indiana. You made it about them.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I brought up some concerns I had about Butler's recruiting in this thread.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=41881.0

Not only do they not have many quality recruits in tow, they are not going after top recruits. When your third best target for 2015 is a 3.3 star...that is not acceptable for the BEast. Unless something changes, I think they will be a perpetual bottomfeeder.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Dude, you have the world's biggest hate woody for CBB. There was no need for this post. This thread had nothing to do with Crean or Indiana. You made it about them.

You're wrong.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You're wrong.

Doing a quick CTL+F of IU, Indiana, Tom, Tommy, and Crean show that the only posters who have mentioned them are Jman and you....so I would say yes, this thread had nothing to do with them before the aforementioned post

[Pakuni]

Actually they had 3...1962, 2003, 2007.  If that counts as "many" in your eyes, then that's fine.

How's Butler tournament record over the past 20 years w/out Brad Stevens stack up to the tournament records of St. Louis or Dayton over the past couple decades? (not to mention Providence, DePaul, Seton Hall and St. John's)?

Again...by winning a lower level league.

Winning a lower league actually worked against them in the NCAA tournament because it landed them first- and second-round matchups against higher seeded opponents than they likely would have faced coming out of a better conference.

(And, yeah, i know the response here is they wouldn't have made the tourney against a power-conference schedule. To which I would reply we can't possibly know that, but we do know they've beaten some of those power-conference schools in the tourney).

[MUSF]

I wonder why Chicos started this thread.... Couldn't possibly be because Crean is sh*tting the bed and the IU fans are dreaming of Brad Stevens, could it? Desperate straw grabbing at its finest.

If you are correct about Chico's (I'm not saying you are) you just played into his hands with your reply.

[Texas Western]

Butler brings many positives to this league. They have a history of success under many different coaches, they play in a historic arena that has been recently renovated, they are in a big and growing media market, and the academic quality of the school is high .  They have consistently provided strong competition in what is clearly a transitional year. One of the nice thing about the round robin schedule Big East Schedule is we get a pretty deep understanding of our opponents over time. I don't think any one is going into a game with Butler and looking at it as a guaranteed win.

[mug644]

I'll mention Crean in this post, but not really along the lines of the above bickering.

I think Stevens, despite the obvious commitment of the Butler administration, realized the limitations of recruiting to a place like Butler, even despite it's great success of consecutive Final Fours and ascension to the Big East. It's incredibly hard for a coach at a lower profile school to maintain effort and success; maybe only Gonzaga has done so within the last 15-20 years (although Xavier comes to mind). But, Gonzaga, like Butler, built a program that succeeded with more than one coach. That's what keeps me hopeful about the Bulldogs despite this poor year, and the transition to a new coach.

The recruiting ceiling that was perhaps felt by Stevens is no different that the words spoken by Mike Deane about Marquette, and that led Tom Crean to say "It's Indiana, It's Indiana." Places like MU and Butler are simply not 'dream' schools for most top notch players, and it is exhausting for a coach to need to feel like Sisyphus each and every year, with each and every 5 star recruit.

[keefe]

The recruiting ceiling that led Tom Crean to say "It's Indiana, It's Indiana."

I'm glad to see it has turned out well for The Bronzed Beast of Bloomington...

[Dawson Rental]

This again?
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Brad Stevens (Todd Lickliter).
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Todd Lickliter (Thad Matta)
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Thad Matta (Barry Collier).

I'm far less concerned with Butler's ability to build a winner in the new Big East than I am Seton Hall or Providence or DePaul. Is anyone really shocked that a team that lost its top three scores AND its coach from last year is having a bit of a rough go at it?
Would we be better off with Dayton right now?

For this year anyway, the answer is yes.

[mug644]

I'm glad to see it has turned out well for The Bronzed Beast of Bloomington...

I feel the same way. 

[Dawson Rental]

I think they might be ok, but one of the complaints about Stevens is that he couldn't recruit very well.  Certainly has some coaching chops, but their classes coming off the NCAA runs weren't what was expected, and the talent not good this year.  I've had more than a few folks in the industry say Brad got out because he knew they were going to get smoked this year in this conference because the recruits weren't capable.  They said this prior to the season starting.

Brad isn't stupid.  

And the Boston Celtics' head coaching job ain't chopped liver, either.  Supposedly, Stevens was not willing to even consider other Division I jobs this off season, so, unless he knew a while before it became public that the Boston offer was coming through, then he evidently was willing to give coaching Butler in its first year in the Big East a go, so, I think that your folks in the industry were making crap up.  

[Dreadman24]

Actually they had 3...1962, 2003, 2007.  If that counts as "many" in your eyes, then that's fine.



Again...by winning a lower level league.

+1000

[MUSF]

Butler will be the Butler we all knew for most of their history. Not surprised by this at all. Schools like Butler or SLU can have a run but long term not a program that you look to be an anchor in a conference.

Actually, I think SLU may have been the better short and long-term option. I am more concerned about Butler's future without Stevens than I would be about SLU.

[wildbill sb]

Some might say the same thing about Marquette this year...

Yep.

[keefe]

I am relaxed. I provided simple reasoning.

If anything you need to relax. You just used world domination and Hitler as a way to disprove Marquette being 1 of the 3 headlining teams in the Big East Men's Basketball conference.

Take a deep breath and exhale slowly. I was just getting in some Godwin's points.

[bilsu]

This may not have anything to do with future success, but possibly Butler's best player had to redshirt this year do to injury. Given the number of close games they have been in, it is not hard to imagine Butler having a significantly better season, if the player did not get hurt.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you are correct about Chico's (I'm not saying you are) you just played into his hands with your reply.

I'm so glad I have that arseclown on ignore, but got to read from you quoting him...smh 

[kmwtrucks]

in 2013 Indiana had 10 player's rated 3 star in HS (not including post grad kids going to school elsewhere) PU got 2, IU got 2, ND got 3, Cuse and Mich got 1 each.   Its tough when you are only recruiting 2 star players to have real sustained success.  Most Indiana kids are going to goto IU, PU and ND 1st.  and the 2-3 top 40 types are going to either the 3 above or blue blood.   MU is in a way better recruiting situation then Butler.  Better facilities, less competition for in state player's, and larger budgets, donations, and Alumni base. 

[StillWarriors]

This again?
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Brad Stevens (Todd Lickliter).
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Todd Lickliter (Thad Matta)
Butler made NCAA tournament appearances with the guy before Thad Matta (Barry Collier).

I'm far less concerned with Butler's ability to build a winner in the new Big East than I am Seton Hall or Providence or DePaul. Is anyone really shocked that a team that lost its top three scores AND its coach from last year is having a bit of a rough go at it?
Would we be better off with Dayton right now?

Hard to argue with the concern over DePaul's ability to build a winner. I have been seeing a lot lately though about Seton Hall having some major success on the recruiting trail, and that their future looks pretty bright. Hope so. Can only be good for the conference.

[slingkong]

There were a couple other schools that fit those criteria.  The question is over the course of time, do they fit that criteria better than schools like Dayton or SLU.

It's been my opinion since day 1 of this conference that SLU is not a good fit because it has not been historically committed to basketball. And despite their current ranking (with Majerus' players) they're an even bigger question mark now that Majerus is gone. Anyway, I agree with others that Butler wasn't added as a headliner - neither would SLU if they are added - but because of their location, semi-successful history, and size.