Maurice Creek to IU

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why?

Look at the top 25 over time.  I saw a blog that did a "geographical center" of the top 25 (end of season) over the last 25 years and it is moving south. 

Well then we might as well abandon MU as our team then....IU's weather is a LOT better then MU's.  Not even close.  Very little snowfall, not that bitter cold of Milwaukee, etc.

 

[nola03]

Herein lies the fallicy in assuming the former assistant coach should be hired in order to hold things together.
No wonder Crean pushed for Buzz's hiring. He knew he could out-recruit him for the same kids.

This is very true. People will be silly and mention that Crean took the recruiting book but I'm not sure Buzz was ever going to really have a chance at the elite talent that MU was flirting with in 2009.

Crean had the best of both worlds -- he was getting great prospects a little hot when he was at MU  but couldn't really bed them because they were still some question marks; now at IU, he can get those recruits just as hot but bed them the same night.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is very true. People will be silly and mention that Crean took the recruiting book but I'm not sure Buzz was ever going to really have a chance at the elite talent that MU was flirting with in 2009.

Crean had the best of both worlds -- he was getting great prospects a little hot when he was at MU  but couldn't really bed them because they were still some question marks; now at IU, he can get those recruits just as hot but bed them the same night.

Bingo!!

But the haters will continue to deny this....they're in for some disappointment over the next 10 years.  Be happy he got us where he got us and pray like hell our illustrious administration hired a guy that can keep us there.

[Coach Norman Dale]

Another...you're wrong.  IU is first and foremost just trying to do it right...they'll give Crean 5 years just to straighten the ship out and not cheat.  Eventually they'll get frustrated, but what you keep missing is that he's going to have a lot of 4 and 5 star players going there, and they will get to a lot of places they used to go frequently.

This is absolutely correct. 

I know this will sound odd, but I have told many of my friends that Kelvin Sampson was the best thing that ever happened to IU b/c this mess he made brought focus and unity to the fanbase.  There is no longer a pro-Bobby Knight faction and a Mike Davis got a raw deal faction.  There is only a single-minded let's clean up this mess Sampson made faction and get this program back on track -- bringing in Indiana University type players, winning the right way, and graduating student athletes.  All oars are pulling in the same direction for the 1st time in about 10 years.

Indiana fans will support its team next year just for the effort -- even if it is a mix of freshman and walk-ons with Crawford, McGee and Tabor.  And Crean is the man for the job.

[Mayor McCheese]

What is "it" I ask again?  In three to five years they will be ranked 17 and finish second in the big ten and make round two of the tourney.  That will be a good season.  But is that "it"?

My bet is IU nation is not happy with this.  They want to be UNC, Duke or UCLA.  What I described above is not them. 

Crean will do to IU what he did to MU.  Remember that MU was ranked as high as 9th last season.  He will take years to get to what he had on March 31, but will he progress further than that?  I say no.

If you want to know why - weather.  No more elite teams will come from places that get snow in the winter.  Kansas will find this out when Self leaves.

They want to be UNC, Duke or UCLA...

Duke, hell, MU is Duke right now... Duke has tradition, but the last 5 years they haven't really lived up to it, especially the last two.  For kids that want to go to a NC school... UNC is it right now

[Tugg Speedman]

Another...you're wrong.  IU is first and foremost just trying to do it right...they'll give Crean 5 years just to straighten the ship out and not cheat.  Eventually they'll get frustrated, but what you keep missing is that he's going to have a lot of 4 and 5 star players going there, and they will get to a lot of places they used to go frequently.

If Crean can get little old MU to the NCAAs three straight years and get little old MU to the Final Four, imagine what he'll do playing in the joke that is the Big Ten, getting a #2 or #3 seed in the future along with 4 and 5 star talent?

I guess we'll agree to disagree.  Copobianco and Creek type recruits are not going to cut it long-term at IU.  Trading Ebanks for these stiffs is not why they are paying tan Tommy the big bucks.  These are top 50 to top 100.  He needs top 10.

top 10 recruits have a certain swagger.  They'll pick a team that was already top 10, move in and take a starting spot and take the team to the next level.  Then they will leave after one year (Love at UCLA, multiple UNC recruits).  Or, they will go to a school because of the coach (Rose to Memphis, Beasley to K-State) and it does not matter what the condition of the team is.

Crean will not have that top 10 team to attract a McDonald's all-american to play one-year and go pro.  If Crean can talk them into IU like Huggins, then he could have talked them into MU long ago.  He never did.

Don't get me wrong, I think IU can rebound to be like Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois etc.  They will be ranked finish in the top 3 or 4 of the big ten and make the sweet sixteen every once in a while.  They will ALWAYS be looking up at MSU until Izzo leaves.

But, this is not what Hoosier Nation wants.  They want the Knight era.  They want to go to the sweet sixteen every year.  They want to be pre-season top 5 every year.  Crean cannot deliver on this and in five years they want him to move on.

[Tugg Speedman]

They want to be UNC, Duke or UCLA...

Duke, hell, MU is Duke right now... Duke has tradition, but the last 5 years they haven't really lived up to it, especially the last two.  For kids that want to go to a NC school... UNC is it right now

Duke is suffering because of the lacrosse thing.  Applications are off 20% to 25% in the last few years.  The might not survive this.  (Let me define survive - when coach K leaves, they go from a elite basketball team and a near-ivy league education reputation to Davidson in both categories)

[Coach Norman Dale]

If Crean can talk them into IU like Huggins, then he could have talked them into MU long ago.  He never did.

Recruiting to IU versus Marquette is simply not the same.  It is now and always will be easier to recruit to IU. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Duke is suffering because of the lacrosse thing.  Applications are off 20% to 25% in the last few years.  The might not survive this.  (Let me define survive - when coach K leaves, they go from a elite basketball team and a near-ivy league education reputation to Davidson in both categories)

I'll wait to see who they hire before going there.  They have a 100% fully endowed athletic department, a great academic institution, beautiful part of the country, etc, etc.  They might fall to a Wake Forest level for a little while, but I doubt they will drop to the level you suggest.

[Marquette Gyros]

Duke is suffering because of the lacrosse thing.  Applications are off 20% to 25% in the last few years.  The might not survive this.  (Let me define survive - when coach K leaves, they go from a elite basketball team and a near-ivy league education reputation to Davidson in both categories)

Utterly laughable on both counts.  Duke is in the Atlantic Coast Conference, is one of the top research universities in the country and has a ridiculous, well-heeled fanbase.  They may drop a bit from where they are, which is the pinnacle of the sport. 

Suggesting they will become a mid-major hoops team and that the quality of their academic reputation would fall off when Coach K bails is completely ludicrous. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Let's cut to the chase with Duke ....

Fact, applications are off 20% to 25%.  White parents that drive a Mercedes from New Jeresy are afraid to send their kids to "the south."  Duke is flirting with a "deliverence" type of problem.  It's not Nfong's fault.  It's the adminstration fault for hanging the entire lacrosse team out to dry.  Allowing the protests on campus and assuming they were guilty.  Go ahead and laugh but why do you think applications are down?  Kids that went to Duke are going to Princeton or Notre Dame instead.

Two, the racial tension on campus is high and not receding.  This combined with the lacrosse legacy is hurting coach K's recruting.  He survuves beause he's coach K.  But the next guy in will suffer like Hank Raymonds or Mike Davis.

Lastly, their is precedent for this.  Kent State was a private Ohio college cut from the Oberlin/Miami of Ohio cloth.  After the shooting on May 4, 1970 (28 year ago yesterday) they have still not recovered fully.  Virginia Tech is going to have a similar problem.

Fact is Duke peaked as an althetic and educational institution the day they closed the lacrosse team.  They are Wake Forest now and will evantually become Davidson.

[Tugg Speedman]

Recruiting to IU versus Marquette is simply not the same.  It is now and always will be easier to recruit to IU. 

So Memphis is a better place than MU?  ICalipari is the reason Rose went to Memphis.

Better Example, Huggins got Beasley to go to K-State.  So K-State is a better basketball school than MU?

If Huggins or Calipari were the coach of MU (and was hired last year, not three weeks ago), is their any doubt MU would have top 5 recruiting classes?  Fact is Crean is not an elite recruiter.  He is a good recruiter.  So, he will have good teams (ranked 20) and not elite teams (ranked top 5).  Not bad but this is not what IU signed up for.

[Marquette Gyros]

Let's cut to the chase with Duke ....

Fact, applications are off 20% to 25%.  White parents that drive a Mercedes from New Jeresy are afraid to send their kids to "the south."  Duke is flirting with a "deliverence" type of problem.  It's not Nfong's fault.  It's the adminstration fault for hanging the entire lacrosse team out to dry.  Allowing the protests on campus and assuming they were guilty.  Go ahead and laugh but why do you think applications are down?  Kids that went to Duke are going to Princeton or Notre Dame instead.

Two, the racial tension on campus is high and not receding.  This combined with the lacrosse legacy is hurting coach K's recruting.  He survuves beause he's coach K.  But the next guy in will suffer like Hank Raymonds or Mike Davis.

Lastly, their is precedent for this.  Kent State was a private Ohio college cut from the Oberlin/Miami of Ohio cloth.  After the shooting on May 4, 1970 (28 year ago yesterday) they have still not recovered fully.  Virginia Tech is going to have a similar problem.

Fact is Duke peaked as an althetic and educational institution the day they closed the lacrosse team.  They are Wake Forest now and will evantually become Davidson.

1) You're quoting the wrong statistics while predicting Duke's downfall.  Early decision applications are a small subsection of the total number of applicants.  Overall apps for 2007 (the year immediately following the scandal) were only down 1 percent.  Certainly not good news.  But applications are not off 20-25%.

Duke University applications dropped 1 percent this year, to 19,207, from a record high a year earlier. It admitted 4,053 students, or 21 percent of applicants.

Duke's admit rate for its Early Decision round jumped from 31% to 42%, as application tumbled 20% from last year's number. The 1,187 applications received this year represent a substantial decline from last year's record of 1,499 applicants.


2) Agree that the administration hung the kids out to dry.  Disagree that this will torch the school's reputation a la Kent State (which is a public school) or Virginia Tech.  Equating this scandal, where nothing was proven to have ever happened, with the mass murders that occurred at Kent or VaTech is asinine. 


3) If you're referring to yesterday's WSJ article about Duke's racial tension and extrapolating the school's demise from that, don't.  Trust me, there are exclusive, even segregated, minority cliques at just about every school, including (especially) our alma mater.

[Tugg Speedman]

1) You're quoting the wrong statistics while predicting Duke's downfall.  Early decision applications are a small subsection of the total number of applicants.  Overall apps for 2007 (the year immediately following the scandal) were only down 1 percent.  Certainly not good news.  But applications are not off 20-25%.

Duke University applications dropped 1 percent this year, to 19,207, from a record high a year earlier. It admitted 4,053 students, or 21 percent of applicants.

Duke's admit rate for its Early Decision round jumped from 31% to 42%, as application tumbled 20% from last year's number. The 1,187 applications received this year represent a substantial decline from last year's record of 1,499 applicants.


2) Agree that the administration hung the kids out to dry.  Disagree that this will torch the school's reputation a la Kent State (which is a public school) or Virginia Tech.  Equating this scandal, where nothing was proven to have ever happened, with the mass murders that occurred at Kent or VaTech is asinine. 


3) If you're referring to yesterday's WSJ article about Duke's racial tension and extrapolating the school's demise from that, don't.  Trust me, there are exclusive, even segregated, minority cliques at just about every school, including (especially) our alma mater.

Parents expect the adminstration to "protect" their kids.  The Duke adminstration completley failed at this and the unverisity is paying a heavy price.  That's why the kent state and VT examples are good, failures to protect students.


Want a better example, look at the trouble MU had in the late 1980s just because Dahmer lived near (but had nothing to do with) MU.   Combined with the nearby crime rate and the school was really hurting around 1989.  The campustown project helped turn it around to the point that their sucess was featured on page 1 of a 1991 WSJ story.

Duke can turn it around?  Of course.  But their attitude if pretending it did not happen is not going to work.  And, yes, the WSJ story yesterday did influence my comments.  Blacks still feel uncomfortable at Duke.  Not good if your trying to recruit black basketcall players.  Maybe this was part of the reason for all the transfers this year.

WSJ story - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120977670689464343.html

[Mayor McCheese]

lets face it, Duke is struggling not due to any Lacrosse thing, players that are playing college basketball to get to the NBA, don't really care about the Lacrosse incident.

Coach K I don't think wants 1 and done players, and that kills him.  Look at his program, who leaves early, Coach K loves his 4 year players, play smart, and play hard, its amazing that Psycho T isn't a Duke player.

The thing is Duke isn't cool, they're not UNC.  UNC is the team now for high school players.  It's UNC, and UCLA, Texas, Memphis, and others.  Duke, sure they bring in great players, but not what it use to be.


And I would have to think Wojo is in line for when Coach K leaves.

[🏀]

lets face it, Duke is struggling not due to any Lacrosse thing, players that are playing college basketball to get to the NBA, don't really care about the Lacrosse incident.

Coach K I don't think wants 1 and done players, and that kills him.  Look at his program, who leaves early, Coach K loves his 4 year players, play smart, and play hard, its amazing that Psycho T isn't a Duke player.

The thing is Duke isn't cool, they're not UNC.  UNC is the team now for high school players.  It's UNC, and UCLA, Texas, Memphis, and others.  Duke, sure they bring in great players, but not what it use to be.


And I would have to think Wojo is in line for when Coach K leaves.

Duke really isn't the cool place to be. I feel the Duke appeal is clearly running off. Who wants to play at Cameron when you could play in front of an area full of people? The Cameron Crazies, yeah I bet that can get a little much to have a bunch of dorks chasing you around campus. I also think the newer generations have grown tired of always hearing about Duke from ESPN/Vitale, and are happier to beat them then play for them.

I feel that Duke will be taken down a couple when K leaves.

[Coach Norman Dale]

Coach K I don't think wants 1 and done players, and that kills him.  Look at his program, who leaves early, Coach K loves his 4 year players, play smart, and play hard

While I agree that Coack K does not prefer the one and done -- b/c as a Knight disciple he believes in the student-athlete -- he preaches getting a degree, which is why Duke has a program for players to graduate with their degrees in three years.  (This was a big deal several years ago with Jason Wiliams who came from a family of educators -- now if only he had taken a motorcycle safety course.  Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess we'll agree to disagree.  Copobianco and Creek type recruits are not going to cut it long-term at IU.  Trading Ebanks for these stiffs is not why they are paying tan Tommy the big bucks.  These are top 50 to top 100.  He needs top 10.

top 10 recruits have a certain swagger.  They'll pick a team that was already top 10, move in and take a starting spot and take the team to the next level.  Then they will leave after one year (Love at UCLA, multiple UNC recruits).  Or, they will go to a school because of the coach (Rose to Memphis, Beasley to K-State) and it does not matter what the condition of the team is.

Crean will not have that top 10 team to attract a McDonald's all-american to play one-year and go pro.  If Crean can talk them into IU like Huggins, then he could have talked them into MU long ago.  He never did.

Don't get me wrong, I think IU can rebound to be like Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois etc.  They will be ranked finish in the top 3 or 4 of the big ten and make the sweet sixteen every once in a while.  They will ALWAYS be looking up at MSU until Izzo leaves.

But, this is not what Hoosier Nation wants.  They want the Knight era.  They want to go to the sweet sixteen every year.  They want to be pre-season top 5 every year.  Crean cannot deliver on this and in five years they want him to move on.

You have to take steps, and that's what they are doing.  Getting good players now to right the ship, that will build into great players in a few years.  That is a total rebuilding job and he's playing it smart.  By gutting the team, the expecations are even lower.  As long as the team plays their tails off for him in the first few years, the fans will appreciate the product.  Then they will start demanding more and more wins, which will come.

[jce]

Parents expect the adminstration to "protect" their kids.  The Duke adminstration completley failed at this and the unverisity is paying a heavy price.  That's why the kent state and VT examples are good, failures to protect students.

Want a better example, look at the trouble MU had in the late 1980s just because Dahmer lived near (but had nothing to do with) MU.   Combined with the nearby crime rate and the school was really hurting around 1989.  The campustown project helped turn it around to the point that their sucess was featured on page 1 of a 1991 WSJ story.

Dahmer had nothing to do with Marquette's problems in the "late 1980s," mostly because Dahmer was "discovered" in 1991.  The problems MU had were mostly due to poor student recruitment hampered by a substandard scholarship endowment, but yeah the neighborhood didn't help.  And while I loved Fr. Raynor, Fr. DiUlio seemed to have a better sense of how the University needed to market itself and how it needed to develop its endowment to attract a better pool of students to the University.  Furthermore, the University had a relatively antiquated infrastructure too - I was a senior when the AMU opened, and it was the newest building on campus by, what...10 years?  Since then look at all that has been done in that regard.

[Tugg Speedman]

You have to take steps, and that's what they are doing.  Getting good players now to right the ship, that will build into great players in a few years.  That is a total rebuilding job and he's playing it smart.  By gutting the team, the expecations are even lower.  As long as the team plays their tails off for him in the first few years, the fans will appreciate the product.  Then they will start demanding more and more wins, which will come.

Right now their are 305 D1 programs trying to get the "elite" level.  Why do you think that Crean will be sucsessful?

I think the competition is so fierce that one mis-step will set you back many years, if not a decade.  IU is going backwards in a big way next year.  So, why should they be the next great big ten basketball team?  Remember Weber?  He went to the final game five years ago and the Illi were going to be the next great team.  How did that work out?

So many things have to go right to become an elite team.  IU step backwards is a much bigger deal than many believe.  Againm, they will be a ranked team again.  Or, Crean will do what Mike Davis essetntailly did.  But that won't be good enough in Bloomington.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Right now their are 305 D1 programs trying to get the "elite" level.  Why do you think that Crean will be sucsessful?

I think the competition is so fierce that one mis-step will set you back many years, if not a decade.  IU is going backwards in a big way next year.  So, why should they be the next great big ten basketball team?  Remember Weber?  He went to the final game five years ago and the Illi were going to be the next great team.  How did that work out?

So many things have to go right to become an elite team.  IU step backwards is a much bigger deal than many believe.  Againm, they will be a ranked team again.  Or, Crean will do what Mike Davis essetntailly did.  But that won't be good enough in Bloomington.

I think he will be successful because he was successful at Marquette.  It will be easier to be successful at IU then at MU.  Now, defining success is in the eye of the beholder, but it will be easier to recruit there, they have more majors to hide kids in, the state is pro Indiana, the conference is weaker then the Big East, it's a traditional power with an instant recognition nationally.  The key might be to judge success and by whom.  Before this year, KU's coach (Self) wasn't considered "successful" by KU's standards, but by 99% of other program's standards, he was.  But even by KU's standards, they weren't about to go fire Self nor was he on the "hot seat" because he wasn't going to the Final Four every year, or for that matter even once.

Crean will succeed at IU, to what level will be the question, but he will succeed there.  He will have an easier time of it there then at MU, just the way it is.