The Bare cupboard

[#UnleashSean]

If we could use this excuse for one second, please.


For 7 years I've heard the excuse of "bare cupboard" in response to wojo being bad.

Why is this nonexistent for Shaka? He has 3 returning players. 2 freshman, one who got minutes, and Greg Elliot (who, eventhough every scooper loves him, has been injury prone his entire career)

Shaka has a fully new team, mostly of underclassmen learning a completely new system. Why is everyone downtrodden about this team? crap their 2-0, and they didn't lose to belmont or Omaha Nebraska. This should already but positive thoughts into your minds .

[TallTitan34]

Why is everyone downtrodden about this team?

I think the majority understand what’s up and it’s only a handful of posters that are downtrodden.

[BallBoy]

I think it has to do with the position the coaches come from. Wojo was left with a bare cupboard and he was coming from Duke as an assistant so no talent was going to follow him. He had to make due with his hand and find some fillers through the Transfer market which is different than today.

Shaka was a known entity and pulled a lot of interest from recruits he was recruiting with his previous employer so he was able to clean out some of the team and add quickly to get back to a team with a lot of raw talent but likely with a similar record as Wojo’s first year.

I think most people don’t have high expectations for this team this year and it has to do with the youth and make up of the team.

[5DollarPitcher]

I’m full steam ahead on the Shaka Express - I don’t want the excuse. Not that I’ll crucify him if this season were to slip away, but let’s not resign ourselves to that after Game 2 and 2-0….

We can have an excuse making session when we actually start to disappoint - just don’t let it drag on to Year 7 like the wet blanket that used to sit in Shaka’s chair.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think the difference is that Shaka was left with an entire roster that theoretically was more talented than what Wojo was left with in his first year, it's just they all transferred or went pro. Personally, I don't hold that against Shaka, some do. Shaka also had access to instant transfers whereas Wojo did not. I also think the "downtrodden" scoopers are a significant minority.

[Newsdreams]

I think the difference is that Shaka was left with an entire roster that theoretically was more talented than what Wojo was left with in his first year, it's just they all transferred or went pro. Personally, I don't hold that against Shaka, some do. Shaka also had access to instant transfers whereas Wojo did not. I also think the "downtrodden" scoopers are a significant minority.

This and maybe mistaking "downtrodden" with realistic expectations.

[fjm]

I think the difference is that Shaka was left with an entire roster that theoretically was more talented than what Wojo was left with in his first year, it's just they all transferred or went pro. Personally, I don't hold that against Shaka, some do. Shaka also had access to instant transfers whereas Wojo did not. I also think the "downtrodden" scoopers are a significant minority.

Bingo. Been saying it the whole time I love Shaka. Rooting for him!

But the cupboard wasn’t bare.

He had DJ, Garcia, Lewis, Cain etc when he arrived.

Is it his fault he couldn’t keep them? Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe they just didn’t fit his system or didn’t want to put up with their egos.

But the cupboard wasn’t bare. They weren’t a good team last year. But he had a guy who is playing in the Gleague and a guy playing for UNC when he arrived. (Again the guy in the Gleague was pushed out if he didn’t already want to leave) and Garcia was gonna leave.

Not Shaka’s fault. But they were part of the team when he arrived.

[fjm]

This and maybe mistaking "downtrodden" with realistic expectations.

True! I expect 15 wins. I’m not downtrodden. I just realize that this is a very big transition year.

[panda]

Bingo. Been saying it the whole time I love Shaka. Rooting for him!

But the cupboard wasn’t bare.

He had DJ, Garcia, Lewis, Cain etc when he arrived.

Is it his fault he couldn’t keep them? Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe they just didn’t fit his system or didn’t want to put up with their egos.

But the cupboard wasn’t bare. They weren’t a good team last year. But he had a guy who is playing in the Gleague and a guy playing for UNC when he arrived. (Again the guy in the Gleague was pushed out if he didn’t already want to leave) and Garcia was gonna leave.

Not Shaka’s fault. But they were part of the team when he arrived.

Take quake ! Take it easy Bayless.

[Herman Cain]

I am in the positive camp. I like what I see so far. Each game is a building block and the outlook is good.

The rest of the Big East this year, excluding Nova and UConn, is beatable .

[fjm]

Take quake ! Take it easy Bayless.

I don’t get it.
And I don’t have time to read these. Too busy watching Texas crush Gonzaga on DVR.

[panda]

I don’t get it.
And I don’t have time to read these. Too busy watching Texas crush Gonzaga on DVR.

No surprise you don’t understand…

[BallBoy]

I’m full steam ahead on the Shaka Express - I don’t want the excuse. Not that I’ll crucify him if this season were to slip away, but let’s not resign ourselves to that after Game 2 and 2-0….

We can have an excuse making session when we actually start to disappoint - just don’t let it drag on to Year 7 like the wet blanket that used to sit in Shaka’s chair.

Excuses are after the fact as to why you didn’t achieve something.

I expect MU to be in the 15 win range for a wide variety of reasons. If Shaka exceeds that he overcame the challenges. They are no longer excuses because they didn’t stop him from achieving the goal.

If he doesn’t there could be a wide variety of reasons some of which will be excuses.

I am not going to hold Shaka to his first season just like I didn’t with Wojo. Not everyone walks into a Buzz situation.

I do believe if MU didn’t get a coach like Shaka after firing Wojo, we would be in a much worse situation.

[MU82]

Cupboards when Marquette coaches took over:

Al - two promising items but otherwise bare

Hank - bursting with goodies

Rick - reasonably well-stocked

Dukiet - some stockage

KO - a couple high-quality items but little else

Deane - well-stocked

Crean - a few good items but restocking needed

Buzz - bursting with goodies

Wojo - a few promising items but mostly misfit parts

Shaka - nearly bare, as 2 high-quality items couldn't be kept in stock

(FWIW, I do not blame Shaka one iota for Carton and Garcia no longer being on team.)

[Dr. Blackheart]

I think the difference is that Shaka was left with an entire roster that theoretically was more talented than what Wojo was left with in his first year, it's just they all transferred or went pro. Personally, I don't hold that against Shaka, some do. Shaka also had access to instant transfers whereas Wojo did not. I also think the "downtrodden" scoopers are a significant minority.

We have been through this. Wojo was left with two future NBA players, 8 Top 100 recruits, and signed two transfers in Carlino and Wally. He lost all but Sandy of Buzz’s recruits and brought none of his own in Year 1. No Pole Shanking.

In short order, Mayo, Dawson, Burton were all gone wasting their scholarship slots to be filled by the Mache brothers recruited from Noon Ball for practice reasons. I think most Scoopers could have seen those coming. In mid order, Taylor, Cohen, Wally and Noskowiak were gone with little value added for their slots. Worse, Wojo wasn’t recruiting fully for those open slots to be. Then there was the Levin, Carter, and Cheatham (serviceable up till his Maui vacation) spots wasted were there was no to little roster value gained. And then the holes continued to follow him (see future roster issues).

Compare that to Shaka were he brought along his Texas recruits, spotted transfers to fill in, rerecruited Wojo’s recruits, and Shaka and Stirred the old roster, including moving on from perhaps future NBA players who didn’t fit. That part we agree on is a better long-term way to rebuild a program.

However, the idea that Wojo was left with a bare cupboard was true only in it was a self-inflicted wound. It exposed Wojo’s inexperience early on, and it followed him through his future roster churn issues, made worse by his Duke hubris.

[tower912]

The cupboard isn't bare, just young.    Shaka brought a lot of his recruits from Texas with him and got some building blocks from the transfer portal.      There is a lot of talent and potential on this team.   I just don't think there is enough experience to do any real damage this season.    I could be wrong.    A whole lot of things could fall into place.    But it will be like drawing two to an inside straight.   

[Tha Hound]

Not sure how anyone can lay blame on Shaka for not keeping upperclassmen wojo players, especially Dawson. Does no one remember he immediately left Milwaukee after the season and went radio silent? He was never coming back, period.

The rest? DJ would be nice to have of course but apparently there were off court issues there according to this forum. Jamal and Koby? I’d much rather rebuild thank you very much.

I’m no Shaka apologist and the first few games have been rough, but that’s just how it goes when your program has been dogcrap for 8 straight years. You don’t just immediately turn it around.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We have been through this. Wojo was left with two future NBA players, 8 Top 100 recruits, and signed two transfers in Carlino and Wally. He lost all but Sandy of Buzz’s recruits and brought none of his own in Year 1. No Pole Shanking.

In short order, Mayo, Dawson, Burton were all gone wasting their scholarship slots to be filled by the Mache brothers recruited from Noon Ball for practice reasons. I think most Scoopers could have seen those coming. In mid order, Taylor, Cohen, Wally and Noskowiak were gone with little value added for their slots. Worse, Wojo wasn’t recruiting fully for those open slots to be. Then there was the Levin, Carter, and Cheatham (serviceable up till his Maui vacation) spots wasted were there was no to little roster value gained. And then the holes continued to follow him (see future roster issues).

Compare that to Shaka were he brought along his Texas recruits, spotted transfers to fill in, rerecruited Wojo’s recruits, and Shaka and Stirred the old roster, including moving on from perhaps future NBA players who didn’t fit. That part we agree on is a better long-term way to rebuild a program.

However, the idea that Wojo was left with a bare cupboard was true only in it was a self-inflicted wound. It exposed Wojo’s inexperience early on, and it followed him through his future roster churn issues, made worse by his Duke hubris.

I don't care what players were ranked in high school and Juan Anderson was years away from making a jump to NBA quality, Buzz couldn't get anything out of him for three years. What Wojo actually inherited was a team that missed the NIT and then lost 6 out of 7 if its top minutes guys and the 7 in that crew was Derrick Wilson. The definition of a bare cupboard. He then did a crappy job restocking it,  on that we agree

[MU82]

The cupboard isn't bare, just young.    Shaka brought a lot of his recruits from Texas with him and got some building blocks from the transfer portal.      There is a lot of talent and potential on this team.   I just don't think there is enough experience to do any real damage this season.    I could be wrong.    A whole lot of things could fall into place.    But it will be like drawing two to an inside straight.

I define a cupboard's fullness by what the previous coach left in it ... so it was quite bare when Shaka took over, especially if one supports the theory that Garcia and DJ were gone regardless.

Wojo's cupboard had some decent items in it, but those items were young and/or misfits and/or had one foot out the door.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I don't care what players were ranked in high school. What Wojo actually inherited was a team that missed the NIT and then lost 6 out of 7 if its top minutes guys and the 7 in that crew was Derrick Wilson. The definition of a bare cupboard. He then did a crappy job restocking it,  on that we agree

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

[forgetful]

We have been through this. Wojo was left with two future NBA players, 8 Top 100 recruits, and signed two transfers in Carlino and Wally. He lost all but Sandy of Buzz’s recruits and brought none of his own in Year 1. No Pole Shanking.

In short order, Mayo, Dawson, Burton were all gone wasting their scholarship slots to be filled by the Mache brothers recruited from Noon Ball for practice reasons. I think most Scoopers could have seen those coming. In mid order, Taylor, Cohen, Wally and Noskowiak were gone with little value added for their slots. Worse, Wojo wasn’t recruiting fully for those open slots to be. Then there was the Levin, Carter, and Cheatham (serviceable up till his Maui vacation) spots wasted were there was no to little roster value gained. And then the holes continued to follow him (see future roster issues).

Compare that to Shaka were he brought along his Texas recruits, spotted transfers to fill in, rerecruited Wojo’s recruits, and Shaka and Stirred the old roster, including moving on from perhaps future NBA players who didn’t fit. That part we agree on is a better long-term way to rebuild a program.

However, the idea that Wojo was left with a bare cupboard was true only in it was a self-inflicted wound. It exposed Wojo’s inexperience early on, and it followed him through his future roster churn issues, made worse by his Duke hubris.

This has been litigated on here before, but your presentation of it is inaccurate.

Wojo took over a team that was 17-15 the previous year, and that lost 64% of its scoring (due to graduations and Mayo being an idiot). So took over a bad team that lost 64% of what made them not awful....the team he had left was awful (29.3% of scoring from returning players).

The two NBA players were Burton, who he retained but was no where near a good player yet. He went to Iowa State and was mediocre at best his first year. He went undrafted, and got to the NBA by his own hard work. Same with Juan Anderson, he got to the NBA based on years of work post college.

Regarding Shaka, he had the possibility of retaining a reasonable core. Yes, we were bad last year, but we were young with talent (Carton/Lewis/Garcia). All three of whom have more current NBA potential than Burton or Anderson had at the time.

Shaka is the coach whose cupboard was self-inflicted. We will see how that plays out. He decided to build the cupboard he felt best fit his system. I'm good with that, but it was far from bare, just not the right ingredients for his recipe.

Wojo was left with a bare cupboard. The best coach in the world wasn't winning with that roster. It can be argued that maybe he should have rebuilt from scratch (longer rebuild) after year 1, instead of trying to simply fill holes and win right away. But hindsight is 2020. Shaka learned a similar lesson as Wojo at UT on team building.

[Uncle Rico]

Shaka Smart is molding the roster to fit his system.  Personally, I thought all the potential returning players could have fit the system.  At the same time, outside Dawson, I wish them all well at their new homes and trust Shaka on roster construction.

I don’t think this team is built to win this year.  The cupboard was bare in the sense Shaka freshened it up to his liking.  The hope for me is the growth of the underclassmen.  What Morsell, Kuath and Greg do is all a bonus

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

I edited and added before you posted.  I didn't address Burton because he was a unique situation with his mother passing.

So if Wojos cupboard was full, then Buzz must be a terrible coach right? Because he had all of those players except Luke and Duane and he couldn't even make the NIT and he put all the players he gave Wojo 12 minutes or less a game except  Derrick. If talent wasn't the issue, coaching must have been.

The man was fired for good reason,  you don't have to make things up to pile on

[MU82]

Calling the Juan Anderson that Wojo inherited an "NBA player" is akin to saying Shaka is a failure for not being able to keep Garcia and DJ.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Your cupboard no matta if you are not a very good coach. 

It was a not very good excuse back then and with transfers it’s not a very good excuse now. 

[PointWarrior]

Does it really matter, Wojo could have inherited 5 all-americans and likely still have a fading collapse to the season.

[BallBoy]

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

One player didn’t make the nba until five years after he graduated. The other averaged 5.4 minutes over 71 games split over two seasons and has since not played a single minute of pro basketball since. When you look at his stats they are completely unimpressive.  The team who didn’t sign his option said he was good raw talent but they couldn’t justify spending more time to develop him.  That was approximately 5 years after he left MU.  Neither were NBA talents at the time they were at MU.

[dinger]

I’m no Shaka apologist and the first few games have been rough, but that’s just how it goes when your program has been dogcrap for 8 straight years. You don’t just immediately turn it around.

Exactly. It will take a while to undo the damage done by wojo. I'm over the five years to judge crap but Shaka at least deserves time to get his system in place.

At best this talented team gets it together by the end of the year and makes the dance but the likely outcome is a tough year. Either way he can't win any less NCAA games than the last guy.

[wadesworld]

Shaka inherited a team that was under .500 overall and 9th (one cancelled game above 10th place Butler) in the Big East.

Call it whatever you want. But usually when you’re firing a coach the cupboard isn’t bursting.

[Boozemon Barro]

Your cupboard no matta if you are not a very good coach. 

It was a not very good excuse back then and with transfers it’s not a very good excuse now.

Completely agree.

[The Lens]

Remeber Luke Wynn's tweet (deleted account since he took a NBA job) that MU Had more Top 100 RCSI players than the rest of the Big East combined? 

The cupboards were so full that most of the stuff spoiled for not be used fast enough.

Sad.

Now it's Shaka time...all gas, no f'n brakes.  Let's go.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I edited and added before you posted.  I didn't address Burton because he was a unique situation with his mother passing.

So if Wojos cupboard was full, then Buzz must be a terrible coach right? Because he had all of those players except Luke and Duane and he couldn't even make the NIT and he put all the players he gave Wojo 12 minutes or less a game except  Derrick. If talent wasn't the issue, coaching must have been.

The man was fired for good reason,  you don't have to make things up to pile on

Buzz had Vander leave unexpectedly, and Duane who was a better PG in high school than Koenig, red shirt with an injury. Then there was Mayo. That left Buzz with his fourth and fifth guards to start. You might even make the argument that Buzz did a very good coaching job considering that roster, especially if a few of those close games went MU’s way at the end (and if Buzz didn’t self-destruct).

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Net, and back to the topic, there are two ways to rebuild. I am with Shaka tearing it down to the studs. And for the record, neither Garcia nor DJ were good fits for Shaka or any of the Super Seniors. I am glad he didn’t take Wojo’s way and retain them. A .500 season will be overachieving.

[Lennys Tap]

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

+1

The “bare cupboard” myth was the first excuse Scoopers used to ignore the fact that the emperor had no clothes. It only prolonged the pain.

[forgetful]

Shaka inherited a team that was under .500 overall and 9th (one cancelled game above 10th place Butler) in the Big East.

Call it whatever you want. But usually when you’re firing a coach the cupboard isn’t bursting.

If you add Morsell to Garcia, Lewis and DJ, the Scoop and experts would have been expecting Wojo/Shaka to make it to the tournament at the least, and some would have expected a run to the 2nd weekend.

And they would have been right. That would have been 4-players with at least fringe NBA potential manning the 1-4 positions, with an average of 2-years of college experience. All with serious scoring abilities. Add a rim protector of your choice and that is a very good roster.

All four are arguably better than the best returning player Wojo had.

As I said earlier. Shaka took a lesson from what happened at UT and threw away the talent listed above to build a team around his vision. He threw away a tourney contending team, for a long term vision.  That very well may be the best choice. Wojo didn't have that learning experience yet.

[rocky_warrior]

Either way he can't win any less NCAA games than the last guy.

Though he could win less NIT games! 

I expect within a few years we'll be a "regular" in NCAA tournament again.  I'm not so confident Shaka can get us over the hump that everybody wants, but I hope he can.

As for this year, I didn't expect very good, and so far they've been a little worse than I expected.  Maybe Greg will bump them up to the level I thought.  Kind of disappointed Shaka didn't go for the "reload to win" as many other coaches did.  In the few non-Marquette games I've watched, it's clear to me the top teams will be a collection of older guys that either came up with the coach, or were acquired in the portal.   That's not us, hopefully we can get there.

[panda]

Buzz had Vander leave unexpectedly, and Duane who was a better PG in high school than Koenig, red shirt with an injury. Then there was Mayo. That left Buzz with his fourth and fifth guards to start. You might even make the argument that Buzz did a very good coaching job considering that roster, especially if a few of those close games went MU’s way at the end (and if Buzz didn’t self-destruct).

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Net, and back to the topic, there are two ways to rebuild. I am with Shaka tearing it down to the studs. And for the record, neither Garcia nor DJ were good fits for Shaka or any of the Super Seniors. I am glad he didn’t take Wojo’s way and retain them. A .500 season will be overachieving.

Then he recruited over Duane. He was just absolutely clueless when it came to roster construction.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

If your main point is that Wojo did a crappy job restocking the cupboard than everyone agrees with you.  The core getting a 10 seed in their 4th year with two freshmen leading them is not as good of an endorsement of the talent as you seem to think it is.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Dr. B, you're not being eviscerated people are just disagreeing with you.  I was one of the people who disagreed with you 6 years ago and have since admitted repeatedly that I was wrong. I was young and naive and wanted to believe that Buzz was a bad coach and there was talent that a new coach would unleash. Instead it became apparent that they just weren't very good.

Wojo should have torn it down as you suggested. The fact that he didn't doesn't mean that the pieces he was left with were very good

[Badgerhater]

Arguing about bare cupboard is a dog chasing its tail because it doesn’t matter and the rules/situation due to COVID are very different.

Wojo never elevated his collection of players into a cohesive team during any of his seasons.   Even in his best years those teams underperformed expectations.

Last year’s team was a dumpster fire.  The different transfer situation between WOjo and Shaka is a tremendous opportunity to rebuild a team from scratch and we will see how it works, but I will never fault his decision to rebuild.

[bilsu]

In today's world you can build a team quite fast. What worries me is this year's recruiting class. The two signed players are fine, except they did not fill our needs. We need front court size and I know some of you want to argue that we have enough. You build a team by improving your weakest areas and so far we have not done that. We grabbed Morsell from the transfer market and I am pretty sure we will be sitting at 0-2 without him. Maybe we can get some front line help in this year's transfer market.

I still can see this team being pretty good with two or three years down the road with the base we have. I expect players to show significant improvement as they get stronger and play smarter.

[Badgerhater]

Kind of disappointed Shaka didn't go for the "reload to win" as many other coaches did.  In the few non-Marquette games I've watched, it's clear to me the top teams will be a collection of older guys that either came up with the coach, or were acquired in the portal.   That's not us, hopefully we can get there.

There is a lot of “win now” in college programs, but following a fired coach of a 10th place team isn’t one of them.   Shaka has essentially a roster of his freshman and sophomores with a splash of seniors and no juniors.  The single season upperclassman seeking a tournament run on a good team were not going to go to MU this year.

This the perfect year to start from scratch with young players.

I expect to see growth in players as well as a team, which is what makes regular seasons fun to watch.  The only fun thing about Wojo years was seeing Howard go off for 40.

[rocky_warrior]

I expect to see growth in players as well as a team, which is what makes regular seasons fun to watch. 

Hm, winning is fun to watch.  I'll watch as many MU games as I can this year, and I'm not a win at all cost guy, but I'd prefer to see them win than lose.  Maybe "growth" is fun for you, but that won't get fans back in the stands.

[Uncle Rico]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

[rocky_warrior]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

+1

In another few months Dr. B might even have me convinced.  On the other hand, with all the usage, we're gonna need new cupboards soon.

[Uncle Rico]

+1

In another few months Dr. B might even have me convinced.  On the other hand, with all the usage, we're gonna need new cupboards soon.

At least Buzz left the toilet full when he left

[fjm]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

What else are we gonna argue about?

[Badgerhater]

Hm, winning is fun to watch.  I'll watch as many MU games as I can this year, and I'm not a win at all cost guy, but I'd prefer to see them win than lose.  Maybe "growth" is fun for you, but that won't get fans back in the stands.

I like and prefer winning.   But When that isn’t what is happening I prefer seeing development and progress as opposed to everyone quitting on Wojo.

[Billy Hoyle]

In today's world you can build a team quite fast. What worries me is this year's recruiting class. The two signed players are fine, except they did not fill our needs. We need front court size and I know some of you want to argue that we have enough. You build a team by improving your weakest areas and so far we have not done that. We grabbed Morsell from the transfer market and I am pretty sure we will be sitting at 0-2 without him. Maybe we can get some front line help in this year's transfer market.

I still can see this team being pretty good with two or three years down the road with the base we have. I expect players to show significant improvement as they get stronger and play smarter.

Don’t worry about that. Classes are going to be built through the transfer portal, especially for big guys. Coaches are holding scholarships to recruit transfers. Not only do you have a better gauge of college ability but they can’t transfer again without sitting out.

[rocky_warrior]

I like and prefer winning.   But When that isn’t what is happening I prefer seeing development and progress as opposed to everyone quitting on Wojo.

Wojo is gone. Let's move on to comparing Shaka to his peers.

[MU82]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

Oh yeah? I was gonna "eviscerate" you, but I figured you'd want to keep your bowels.

I just hope Dr. B gets some surgery to get new innards!

[wadesworld]

If you add Morsell to Garcia, Lewis and DJ, the Scoop and experts would have been expecting Wojo/Shaka to make it to the tournament at the least, and some would have expected a run to the 2nd weekend.

And they would have been right. That would have been 4-players with at least fringe NBA potential manning the 1-4 positions, with an average of 2-years of college experience. All with serious scoring abilities. Add a rim protector of your choice and that is a very good roster.

All four are arguably better than the best returning player Wojo had.

As I said earlier. Shaka took a lesson from what happened at UT and threw away the talent listed above to build a team around his vision. He threw away a tourney contending team, for a long term vision.  That very well may be the best choice. Wojo didn't have that learning experience yet.

But why? Lewis was a returning 6th man. Garcia and Carton have been backups in their other college stops. And Morsell was the defensive stopper who didn’t do a ton offensively in his other college stop. That’s about 4 complimentary players. So not sure why that would equate to a second weekend team.

[Newsdreams]

But why? Lewis was a returning 6th man. Garcia and Carton have been backups in their other college stops. And Morsell was the defensive stopper who didn’t do a ton offensively in his other college stop. That’s about 4 complimentary players. So not sure why that would equate to a second weekend team.

I would have expected NCAAT with that roster.

[brewcity77]

I always chuckle when I see the NBA players Wojo inherited and Juan referenced. Yes, he got there, but he wasn't remotely that player when he was here. It took 5 years of bouncing around for him to develop to being a NBA contributor.

I know from a strict factual perspective, Wojo inherited future NBA player Juan Anderson, but the closest flashes he showed of that potential before leaving Marquette was a high school mixtape.

[MU82]

I always chuckle when I see the NBA players Wojo inherited and Juan referenced. Yes, he got there, but he wasn't remotely that player when he was here. It took 5 years of bouncing around for him to develop to being a NBA contributor.

I know from a strict factual perspective, Wojo inherited future NBA player Juan Anderson, but the closest flashes he showed of that potential before leaving Marquette was a high school mixtape.

Balderdash! Wojo was the only coach in the world who, in 2014, didn't know that Juan Anderson would be Steph Curry's wingman in 2021.

I mean, if Al had been coach back then, Juan would have scored 20 ppg ... but only after Al punched him in the face, of course.

[Lennys Tap]

Balderdash! Wojo was the only coach in the world who, in 2014, didn't know that Juan Anderson would be Steph Curry's wingman in 2021.

No he wasn’t. What he was was a poor coach in over his head at this level. Some knew it then (not me), others figured it out over the next few years and the final stragglers figured it out last year.

[brewcity77]

No he wasn’t. What he was was a poor coach in over his head at this level. Some knew it then (not me), others figured it out over the next few years and the final stragglers figured it out last year.

I don't think Wojo was a good coach by any means, but Buzz had Juan for three years and Juan's career high seasons in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks came with Wojo, as did his highest offensive efficiency.

No one was getting Juan Anderson, NBA contributor, in 2015. Not Wojo, not Buzz, not Al, not Cal or K or Beard or anyone. Juan wasn't an NBA player when he was here, nor was he close to that level.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think Wojo was a good coach by any means, but Buzz had Juan for three years and Juan's career high seasons in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks came with Wojo, as did his highest offensive efficiency.

No one was getting Juan Anderson, NBA contributor, in 2015. Not Wojo, not Buzz, not Al, not Cal or K or Beard or anyone. Juan wasn't an NBA player when he was here, nor was he close to that level.

Brew

I said nothing in my post about Juan Anderson. Nobody has said that Juan was NBA ready when Wojo arrived. But at least he had the potential to become an NBA player and he realized that potential. Likewise, Wojo wasn’t ready to be a head coach when he arrived. Did he have that potential? My answer is no but even his biggest fans now admit that he hasn’t reached it yet. Had Wojo actually turned out to be a good coach the “bare cupboard” argument as an excuse for his early futility might hold water. But he was still a bad coach in year 7, so I have no problem crediting his early futility to the fact that he was a bad coach in year 1 also. “Bare Cupboard” was a facile and at the very least an exaggerated cover up for the fact that Wojo wasn’t the guy.

[4everwarriors]

'bout dis tyme last yeer, Woj sed his playas were tired. Eye wuz tired oh 'im inn yeer 1, doe he annually had nice Christmas deckorations at his crib, aina?

[brewcity77]

I said nothing in my post about Juan Anderson.

But that's what was in the post you quoted and the topic you were joining into.

[WarriorFan]

The transitions are totally different.  Brent left a bare cupboard, and Wojo came in with unfortunately no identity and no style of play but - as an excellent recruiter - was able to convince some pretty good players to join the program over time.  The program just never had an identity.

Shaka has probably inherited less (although time will tell with Oso/Lewis/Greg) but was also able to immediately bring in players that suit the style he wants to play.  They won't be great as a team for a while because they lack the talent, but I for one shed no tears with the departure of Carton (dime a dozen) and Theo (a 6th defender on offense, and a risky defender on defense).  Losing Dawson may turn out to be an issue because I thought he could fit in Shaka's style if he improved his fitness

I think the other big difference is that (IMHO) the BEAST is a tougher league now than it was a few years back.  Every away game is tough to win, and the top 3 teams can beat anyone, anywhere.  I hope we're looking at a Mike Anderson / St John's style tournaround but  with a higher ceiling.

[Small Orange Soda]

Had Wojo actually turned out to be a good coach the “bare cupboard” argument as an excuse for his early futility might hold water. But he was still a bad coach in year 7, so I have no problem crediting his early futility to the fact that he was a bad coach in year 1 also. “Bare Cupboard” was a facile and at the very least an exaggerated cover up for the fact that Wojo wasn’t the guy.

This. The bare cupboard argument for Wojo is over. He spent the next six years proving he couldn't get the best out of his squad. His first team wasn't tourney quality, but it was better than what he achieved. Turned out to be a recurring theme.

[rocky_warrior]

If we could use this excuse for one second, please.

For 7 years I've heard the excuse of "bare cupboard" in response to wojo being bad.

Why is this nonexistent for Shaka? He has 3 returning players. 2 freshman, one who got minutes, and Greg Elliot

This. The bare cupboard argument for Wojo is over. He spent the next six years proving he couldn't get the best out of his squad. His first team wasn't tourney quality, but it was better than what he achieved. Turned out to be a recurring theme.

How this thread started, and where it's at is odd. 

So does Shaka have a bare cupboard or not?  I really am not sure.  Is this an excuse for Shaka?  He had a bare cupboard therefore we shouldn't expect him to be over .500 this season?  Or the dearly departed should have done better?  What's the consensus?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Old father Wojo went to the cupboard
To fetch his poor team a win
When he got there, the cupboard was bare
And now Marquette basketball is dead

[ATL MU Warrior]

Old father Wojo went to the cupboard
To fetch his poor team a win
When he got there, the cupboard was bare
And now Marquette basketball is dead

This made me chuckle...well done.

[Clam Crowder]

If we could use this excuse for one second, please.


For 7 years I've heard the excuse of "bare cupboard" in response to wojo being bad.

Why is this nonexistent for Shaka? He has 3 returning players. 2 freshman, one who got minutes, and Greg Elliot (who, eventhough every scooper loves him, has been injury prone his entire career)

Shaka has a fully new team, mostly of underclassmen learning a completely new system. Why is everyone downtrodden about this team? crap their 2-0, and they didn't lose to belmont or Omaha Nebraska. This should already but positive thoughts into your minds .

I am TRYING to be patient. I think alot of it is just expectations with the coach...With Wojo I feel like alot of folks were more willing to be patient because he had never been a HC and because Buzz had just broken our hearts by leaving. Wojo was an awful hire.... This time around we fired WOJO and said enough is enough we need to be better and we hired a coach with a strong track record. Expectations have been tempered the first 2 games and after tonight I full expect my hopes for this season to be dramatically lower than the delusional hopeful ones I had before the season started

[jfp61]

I am TRYING to be patient. I think alot of it is just expectations with the coach...With Wojo I feel like alot of folks were more willing to be patient because he had never been a HC and because Buzz had just broken our hearts by leaving. Wojo was an awful hire.... This time around we fired WOJO and said enough is enough we need to be better and we hired a coach with a strong track record. Expectations have been tempered the first 2 games and after tonight I full expect my hopes for this season to be dramatically lower than the delusional hopeful ones I had before the season started

Having our two NC home games be UCLA and IU didnt help the patience, but if we are similar to last year and this team improves late, and at least shaka has a plan

[Clam Crowder]

Having our two NC home games be UCLA and IU didnt help the patience, but if we are similar to last year and this team improves late, and at least shaka has a plan

100%-I fully expect to see us get annihilated against UCLA/U of I. The main thing is I want to see improvement. I want to see a season where we finish strong and have momentum for next year versus seeing us crap ourselves like we did under Wojo near the end of the year. If we can see significant growth from Oso/Stevie/Kam and go into next year with some legit optimism about our returning guys thats a positive

[warriorstrack]

Having our two NC home games be UCLA and IU didnt help the patience, but if we are similar to last year and this team improves late, and at least shaka has a plan

Apples and Oranges, I know...
Looking at the early results from other games this year, I can find examples of teams that were ranked and got beat by "lesser" teams, why not us, but yeah also need to be realistic.

I'm expecting a great effort tonight, I don't know enough about the team to just go negative or just expect a loss, that's why they play the game right?

That said, tonight will show me some things I haven't seen yet,
i.e. how the scouting may give us a chance to win against a better (top 10) team (Big East team), how the in-game adjustments will stop the hemorrhaging if the game starts to go sideways, and can impose our game plan on them and not the other way around.

I’m excited and curious to get the answers to these questions, support the team, and looking forward to seeing them in person for the first time this year, ahhhh that new seat smell, ha