John Dawson

[Silkk the Shaka]

I think many people underestimate Derrick's offensive game. Now if they start sagging 5 feet off him again, then I'll agree. But I think Derrick's offense has been just fine to start the year.

If you mean it's slightly improved vs. last year, then we are in tacit agreement. But compared to every other high major point guard, it's not even close to where it needs to be to justify ~35 mpg. He is not a threat from 3 at all, his FT% resembles an MVP slugger's batting average, and he rarely forces action to create an easy basket for others. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what defines "just fine" offense from the PG position at the high major level.

[Nevada233]

If John could master the zone, it would be an option. The zone in my opinion is a harder defense to master. Man-to-man is more than on ball defense including rotations, help defense,  and proper switching.  In my opinion, he was struggling on man-to-man defense on rotations as well. With that he will most definitely struggle in a zone.

Secondly, is John strong enough to play down low?  With the guys being on the shorter side people are playing out of position. Derrick being the strongest, he is taking the low end of the zone. Is Dawson strong enough to play that role?  I don't think he is yet.

The zone defense is veeeeerrry hard to master. Picking spots knowing spaces, rotations, being in postition thats all no easy fish to fry.

[Silkk the Shaka]

If John could master the zone, it would be an option. The zone in my opinion is a harder defense to master. Man-to-man is more than on ball defense including rotations, help defense,  and proper switching.  In my opinion, he was struggling on man-to-man defense on rotations as well. With that he will most definitely struggle in a zone.

Secondly, is John strong enough to play down low?  With the guys being on the shorter side people are playing out of position. Derrick being the strongest, he is taking the low end of the zone. Is Dawson strong enough to play that role?  I don't think he is yet.

Okay, so every other player was able to snap right into a 2-3 no problem? Really grasping at straws now.

[brewcity77]

Everyone was struggling with man-to-man, even Derrick because when he tried to force his man into help defense, there was often no help there which made it look like he just botched his assignment. The move to zone has muted everyone's defensive deficiencies, which tells me that if Dawson were out there, his lack of great man defense wouldn't be as bad in the zone. Even without experience, it may be harder to master, but it's easier to pick up the basics and contribute in.

[GGGG]

Okay, so every other player was able to snap right into a 2-3 no problem? Really grasping at straws now.

Sandy Cohen struggled quite a bit with it.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Everyone was struggling with man-to-man, even Derrick because when he tried to force his man into help defense, there was often no help there which made it look like he just botched his assignment. The move to zone has muted everyone's defensive deficiencies, which tells me that if Dawson were out there, his lack of great man defense wouldn't be as bad in the zone. Even without experience, it may be harder to master, but it's easier to pick up the basics and contribute in.

Precisely.

[GooooMarquette]

Well, he still can't shoot with 1-7 from three point land and 5-14 from the charity stripe.  His offensive game is the same as last year with drives and putbacks.

But there is a difference...and you provided the stats.  Last season, he took 14 3-pointers all season (32 games).  This year, he's taken 7 through six games.  And defenses have taken notice by guarding him instead of sagging.  He's nowhere close to being a good shooter, but as Ners and others repeatedly said last year, teams would have to guard him more closely if they thought there was even a chance he'd take shots...and now he is starting to do exactly that.

The other change that you're ignoring is that he is pushing the ball up court more aggressively, and more frequently catching the defense sleeping with quick passes inside (like the one to a wide open Juan against MSU).  Last season, he'd usually walk it up slowly, and therefore missed the chance to catch the defense off guard.  Don't know if the difference is Buzz vs Wojo's style, but in any event, we're seeing it on the floor.

But yeah - the same as last year.

[GGGG]

Derrick offensively is the same player he was last year.  He is just playing off the ball more this year, which hides some of his deficiencies, but still allows Wojo to keep him on the floor for the positive parts of his game.

[NersEllenson]

Ha, okay. But you ignored the other point. I know Dawson has a functional offensive game. I've seen it. It includes the basic skills required to produce a basket. Derrick's offensive skills boil down to not turning the ball over. That's it. If we're playing a 2-3 zone, his on-ball defensive advantage over other players becomes less relevant, almost to the point of irrelevancy altogether. It would make sense that a player at the same position who has demonstrated some offensive aptitude would get some PT in this new defensive paradigm unless there were other factors at play. Not that outrageous.

Not outrageous at all.  Very well formulated and reasoned.

[BallBoy]

Okay, so every other player was able to snap right into a 2-3 no problem? Really grasping at straws now.

First, Cohen lost time when we moved to the zone because his high school exclusively played man. When you look at the other players on the team they all have multiple years in college and played a form of zone.

Second, It is called risk/reward. When looking at position Dawson is our 8th best option on offense and our ninth best option on defense. The reward of putting Dawson in the game isn't worth the risk he brings on defense.

The person grasping at straws is the guy looking for any way Dawson should get time even if that means putting him in a zone to hide his defensive weaknesses.

[MU82]

I think many people underestimate Derrick's offensive game. Now if they start sagging 5 feet off him again, then I'll agree. But I think Derrick's offense has been just fine to start the year.

I and many others have a perfect handle on Derrick's offensive game: Can't shoot, can't create for others, has one offensive move that fails at least as often as it succeeds, dribbles a lot 30-40 feet from the basket. What in that sentence is incorrect?

We have played six games and he has had one good offensive performance. He had another that a generous observer might label "fine" -- 7 pts on 3-for-7 from the field and 1-for-4 from the line with 5 assists.

Another commenter said defenses are respecting Derrick more because he's attempted seven 3s. Please. He's made one. They still sag some and if he doesn't make more, it will be total Sag City again, especially when we get to conference play. If I'm coaching against Marquette, I have a personal mini-celebration every time Derrick shoots a 3 because it's like forcing a turnover.

I probably come off as a "hater" because I'm realistic about Derrick. I get why many like him because I like him for the same reasons -- good guy, hard worker, leader, solid man defender, tough. Unlike some who were glad when they thought he was hurt, I wish nothing bad for Derrick. I simply wish our coach would give some of his PT to players I'd prefer to see more of.

Yes, even a minute here or there for Dawson, whom I don't consider a high-major guard.

[Nevada233]

First, Cohen lost time when we moved to the zone because his high school exclusively played man. When you look at the other players on the team they all have multiple years in college and played a form of zone.

Second, It is called risk/reward. When looking at position Dawson is our 8th best option on offense and our ninth best option on defense. The reward of putting Dawson in the game isn't worth the risk he brings on defense.

The person grasping at straws is the guy looking for any way Dawson should get time even if that means putting him in a zone to hide his defensive weaknesses.

Have you seen Carlino play defense as a 5th year Sr....... If hes not 9th hes certainly 8th or 10th.....

[GGGG]

Ha, okay. But you ignored the other point. I know Dawson has a functional offensive game. I've seen it. It includes the basic skills required to produce a basket. Derrick's offensive skills boil down to not turning the ball over. That's it. If we're playing a 2-3 zone, his on-ball defensive advantage over other players becomes less relevant, almost to the point of irrelevancy altogether. It would make sense that a player at the same position who has demonstrated some offensive aptitude would get some PT in this new defensive paradigm unless there were other factors at play. Not that outrageous.

I didn't ignore your point.  I said "you may as well be right."  It isn't outrageous. 

[brewcity77]

Have you seen Carlino play defense as a 5th year Sr....... If hes not 9th hes certainly 8th or 10th.....

I thought the same thing, only about Steve's defense.

[brandx]

I think many people underestimate Derrick's offensive game. Now if they start sagging 5 feet off him again, then I'll agree. But I think Derrick's offense has been just fine to start the year.

Really? He has No offensive game other than layups. He can't shoot a jump shot, can't shoot a free throw, and is unable to drive and dish.

You just encourage Ners when you make statements like that.

[Nevada233]

I thought the same thing, only about Steve's defense.

I was saying Carlino because he cant stay in front of anyone if his scholarship depended on it.


But Oh God lets not even bring him into this his defense is about as anyone we have on the roster. I doubt he's blocked a shot all year or challenged a shot, misses bunnies around the basket and rebounds like his shoes are made of concrete. If he were 6 inches shorter him and Dawson would be on **Transfer Alert** he does nothing well at all.

So Carlino and Taylor are certainly fighting for 9th and 10th place on the team defensive list.

[keefe]

I think many people underestimate Derrick's offensive game.

Is that in any way even possible????

[Newsdreams]

Dawson's dad dddawson has not posted since March. Could all this BS of Dawson Vs Derrick be taking its toll?

[NersEllenson]

Dawson's dad dddawson has not posted since March. Could all this BS of Dawson Vs Derrick be taking its toll?

I'd imagine the families of all players have been encouraged to both avoid these boards all together, or if unable to avoid them - to not post here.  Wouldn't know if Mr. Dawson was asked by anyone in Athletic Department to stop posting on the forums - but I can see why/where it would be discouraged. 

I'd imagine it has to be very difficult as a parent to not get caught up in some of the stuff here - even more difficult to see your son nailed to the bench and play less as a sophomore than he did as a freshman.  Carlino and Duane are establishing themselves at 2 of the 3 guard positions, yet none of JJJ, Cohen or Derrick have distinguished themselves, yet they are all being given a good opportunity to do so.  It is incredibly hard to believe that Dawson is so much worse than any of Derrick, JJJ and Cohen that he can't even get an opportunity to show what he can do in a game.

Oh well - John will probably move on to another school and end up having a very nice college career.  When you reach the level of being D-1 good, it is really hard to sit on the bench every game, but go to all the practices, meetings, and essentially devote ALL of your college experience to the team/program - and never see the floor.  For a walk on, it is a different story, as they aren't D-1 material and in many cases wouldn't be guaranteed playing time if they transferred to another D-1 program.  In John's case he could transfer to a number of mid-high major schools and likely get time immediately upon being eligible.  Sure he may miss NCAA tourney, and perhaps a potential special run at MU by the time he's a senior, yet not sure if it were me if that would be incentive enough to stay at the program/university.  Probably would want to see how I could fare elsewhere and get some real PT.

[real chili 83]

10 pages of this BS.

IN BEFORE THE LOCK!!!

[GGGG]

10 pages of this BS.

IN BEFORE THE LOCK!!!

What makes you think this will be locked?  Its been going on endlessly for almost a year.

[Newsdreams]

I'd imagine the families of all players have been encouraged to both avoid these boards all together, or if unable to avoid them - to not post here.  Wouldn't know if Mr. Dawson was asked by anyone in Athletic Department to stop posting on the forums - but I can see why/where it would be discouraged.  

I'd imagine it has to be very difficult as a parent to not get caught up in some of the stuff here - even more difficult to see your son nailed to the bench and play less as a sophomore than he did as a freshman.  Carlino and Duane are establishing themselves at 2 of the 3 guard positions, yet none of JJJ, Cohen or Derrick have distinguished themselves, yet they are all being given a good opportunity to do so.  It is incredibly hard to believe that Dawson is so much worse than any of Derrick, JJJ and Cohen that he can't even get an opportunity to show what he can do in a game.

Oh well - John will probably move on to another school and end up having a very nice college career.  When you reach the level of being D-1 good, it is really hard to sit on the bench every game, but go to all the practices, meetings, and essentially devote ALL of your college experience to the team/program - and never see the floor.  For a walk on, it is a different story, as they aren't D-1 material and in many cases wouldn't be guaranteed playing time if they transferred to another D-1 program.  In John's case he could transfer to a number of mid-high major schools and likely get time immediately upon being eligible.  Sure he may miss NCAA tourney, and perhaps a potential special run at MU by the time he's a senior, yet not sure if it were me if that would be incentive enough to stay at the program/university.  Probably would want to see how I could fare elsewhere and get some real PT.

He always tried to discourge the whole Dawson Vs Derrick debate. His account was active this morning.

[real chili 83]

What makes you think this will be locked?  Its been going on endlessly for almost a year.

A guy can have hope.

[Eldon]

When De Wil is on the court, and especially when he has the ball in his hands, I feel a sense of unease (in me). When Dawson is on the court/running point, I feel a sense of relative comfort; my uneasiness goes away.

[rocky_warrior]

When De Wil is on the court, and especially when he has the ball in his hands, I feel a sense of unease (in me). When Dawson is on the court/running point, I feel a sense of relative comfort; my uneasiness goes away.

So you've had 4 minutes of comfort this year?