To All Of The Crean Bashers Out There. . .

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't know that I'd automatically say that 'Zaga has had a better run over the last 9 years.  Remember that because of the conference they are in they're practically guaranteed to make it to the big dance every year.  They do have more Sweet 16's so you can say that they have taken advantage of their opprotunities, but how many years out of the past 9 would they even be in the NCAAs if they hadn't won their conference tourney?

Well, while I'll agree that the Zags have had a great run, I don't think their program has come as far as MU's. Their tourney runs have been impressive, and I'm a fan of theirs... but MU has just come so far as a program overall. I just think people forget what this program was like 10 years ago. The program is still gaining momentum... we are in a great spot to continue to compete at a high level for years to come.

• MU's attendance and donations are WAY up. They sell-out the Bradley 2-3 times a year when they previously could only sell 15,000 to see #1 Cinci.
  
  MU has been able to move to a better conference... WAY better.
  
  MU has put 3 players into the NBA (I think the Zags may have 3 as well)
  
  MU has beaten the #1 team in the country (UK) to get to the final 4
  
  MU has a top notch practice facility
  
  The list goes on.

The Zags are close... Creighton is probably close (although quietly), and maybe even S. Illinois, although I don't know how similar it is to MU. That's it. I can't think of another that's even close.

Similar schools have made some nice runs, but never been able to make it stick for more than a couple of years and/or had to come as far as MU. 10 years ago MU was about on par with Dayton. Look at it now.

Think about it:
Xavier
St. Joes
DePaul
St. Johns
UMass
Georgetown (recently)
Villanova (recently)
Boston College (they've been up and down)
Temple
Even St. Louis had a nice couple of year run in the 90's.

They have all had nice runs for a couple of years... but never been able to maintain it.

MU has been maintaining a pretty high level and has a chance to continue that in the next couple of years.

[mviale]

I don't think you can ever blame a fan for wanting more. I'm not gonna sit back and be content with the situation, I want to see some better results, sorry if that's too much for people to handle or if almost offends some.

Criticism of a coaching decision is one thing, but dancing in the rain is another.

[muPARTY]

i'm not here to bash crean because i think he's a good coach (not great, but good).  but what scares me is this thought of "it's better than it used to be" mindset.  i didn't know Marquette back in the 80s when they were bad, so i think a lot of you posters are just happy to see the team in the top-25 on a weekly basis and on national TV.  what i see is a coach who had one good year and treated as if he's a god (he is, you all know it).

at what point will enough be enough?  i'm not saying to give up on the Crean tenure at this moment or next yr, etc, but after we had those back-to-back NIT tournaments (with a 1st round loss at home in there) in '04 & '05, i feel that his job was being debated.  then he got some great freshman, a new conference, and a great outcome and he seemed safe again while everyone built up for this yr.  this yr came and the outcome was stagnant.
* 4-4 in the NCAA with those four wins coming in '03
* lost 5 of 7 tournaments in the first round ('00-NIT-Xavier, '02-NCAA-Tulsa, '05-NIT-Western Michigan, '06-NCAA-Alabama, '07-NCAA-Michigan State)
* none of the freshman class following the '03 FF continue to go to Marquette
* 4 conference tournament wins in 8 seasons (4-8) (2 Ws coming in '02)

while i don't believe he should get the boot right now, at what point does a coach who's paid in the top-5 have to show results like a coach in the top-5?  i guess what my point is, i'm not expecting him to be John Wooden or Al, but i'm not satisfied with people saying "well at least we're better than we used to be",  i just want a sign of hope, and looking at his post season record, i don't see any.

by comparison...
Mike Deane's record that got him fired:
'94/'95 21-12 (NIT runner-up)
          23-8 (2nd rd loss NCAA)
          22-9 (CUSA Trmt Champs, 1st rd loss NCAA)
          20-11 (3rd rd loss NIT)
'98/'99 14-15

Bruce Pearl:
* 5-3 in NCAA  (still active in '07)
* lost 1 of 5 tournaments in first round ('03-NCAA)
* 5 20+ win seasons

Bill Self (since '00 still active in '07):
* 3 Elite 8s
* Sweet 16
* 2 1st Rd losses and a 2nd rd loss

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

i'm not here to bash crean because i think he's a good coach (not great, but good).  but what scares me is this thought of "it's better than it used to be" mindset.  i didn't know Marquette back in the 80s when they were bad, so i think a lot of you posters are just happy to see the team in the top-25 on a weekly basis and on national TV.  what i see is a coach who had one good year and treated as if he's a god (he is, you all know it).

at what point will enough be enough?  i'm not saying to give up on the Crean tenure at this moment or next yr, etc, but after we had those back-to-back NIT tournaments (with a 1st round loss at home in there) in '04 & '05, i feel that his job was being debated.  then he got some great freshman, a new conference, and a great outcome and he seemed safe again while everyone built up for this yr.  this yr came and the outcome was stagnant.
* 4-4 in the NCAA with those four wins coming in '03
* lost 5 of 7 tournaments in the first round ('00-NIT-Xavier, '02-NCAA-Tulsa, '05-NIT-Western Michigan, '06-NCAA-Alabama, '07-NCAA-Michigan State)
* none of the freshman class following the '03 FF continue to go to Marquette
* 4 conference tournament wins in 8 seasons (4-8) (2 Ws coming in '02)

while i don't believe he should get the boot right now, at what point does a coach who's paid in the top-5 have to show results like a coach in the top-5?  i guess what my point is, i'm not expecting him to be John Wooden or Al, but i'm not satisfied with people saying "well at least we're better than we used to be",  i just want a sign of hope, and looking at his post season record, i don't see any.

by comparison...
Mike Deane's record that got him fired:
'94/'95 21-12 (NIT runner-up)
          23-8 (2nd rd loss NCAA)
          22-9 (CUSA Trmt Champs, 1st rd loss NCAA)
          20-11 (3rd rd loss NIT)
'98/'99 14-15

Bruce Pearl:
* 5-3 in NCAA  (still active in '07)
* lost 1 of 5 tournaments in first round ('03-NCAA)
* 5 20+ win seasons

Bill Self (since '00 still active in '07):
* 3 Elite 8s
* Sweet 16
* 2 1st Rd losses and a 2nd rd loss

couple of things... take Bill Self's total body of work, not just his succesful seasons.

Here is a link for his career record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Self

He's had some good seasons at UofI and KU, but he wasn't setting the world on fire in his first 8 seasons.

Secondly, what Crean gets paid has nothing to do with anything. NONE of us are effected by what he gets paid.

MU will lower ticket prices if they get a cheaper coach, so I'm not sure why anybody cares about this.

What they pay him doesn't effect anybody. We all know there are some donors out there that contribute a large amount of money to MU in order to help pay that salary. If Crean goes, that money will go too.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Questioning Crean's job stability is ridiculous, but it's equally ridiculous to say his salary means nothing.

It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend.

[Chili]

Questioning Crean's job stability is ridiculous, but it's equally ridiculous to say his salary means nothing.

Are you the donor paying his salary with the courtside seats? So why do you care what his salary is when he doesnt?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Good Lord...another poster with reading comprehension problems. I DON'T CARE ABOUT HIS SALARY!!!!

I am simply pointing out that it is something MU can use to attract other candidates!

I swear, the defensiveness by some on this board boders on bizarre.

[Chili]

you missed the point. just because Crean is getting X dollars does NOT mean another coach will. so to say you expect those same dollars to be available for another coach is a complete fallacy.


you get it now? Crean gets paid what he does because a major donor chooses to pay the vast majority of his salary, not the athletic department. for some reason those same types of donations were NOT there for Deane and most likely won't be there for other coaches.

to make it simple...

Big Boosters like Crean.
Big Boosters donate Big Dollars and offer fringe benefits to the athletic department that are earmarked for Crean.
Crean gets paid by the University from the previously mentioned donations.

Therefore...

No Crean = No Big Donations

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Good Lord...another poster with reading comprehension problems. I DON'T CARE ABOUT HIS SALARY!!!!

I am simply pointing out that it is something MU can use to attract other candidates!

I swear, the defensiveness by some on this board boders on bizarre.

No defensiveness here... I just seriously doubt MU is going to shell out huge bucks for another coach. I'm not questioning MU dedication to success, I'm just saying that Crean has put himself in a unique spot and I doubt these large donations for salary would be coming in if he left. When he was hired there wasn't a huge pool of money out there... he earned it.

He's not going anywhere... we all know it. I guess I keep posting because I want people to realize what is actually going on and how good it is.

If this team falls out of the first round for the next 3 years in a row, then I think we might have to talk about the state of the program and where we think it should be. But, at this point I would say the program is in great shape and questioning the coach is silly.

This team is going to be very fun next year. People should get off Crean's back and get on the bandwagon. It's going to be great.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You think boosters are spending their money because they like Crean? Or because they like the fact that Marquette's profile as a basketball program has increased with the FF, the Big East, Wade, etc.?

By your rationale, if Crean were take the Michigan job -- which he isn't going to do -- they'd go contribute to his salary in Ann Arbor.

Your point of view is laughable. You think if Crean left, we'd be back to paying our coaches $200K? You're just wrong.

By the way, nobody ever suggested the next guy would earn an equal salary. But we would be extremely competitive. That's where these boosters come in.

[Big Papi]

Questioning Crean's job stability is ridiculous, but it's equally ridiculous to say his salary means nothing.

It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend.

Whose to say that the Administration would pay the next coach the same amount of money out of the gate.

What coach out there who is significantly better than TC do you think would be willing to take the job?  

Roy Williams, Coach K, Boeheim, Montgomery, Self, Lute Olsen, Billy Donovan, Calipari, Few, Bo Ryan, Huggins, Izzo, Gillespie, Sampson, Rick Barnes?  

Just curious because I don't see any of these guys willing to come to MU or MU willing to take some of them on.  I am all for getting a big time coach but I don't see one willing to come to MU.  After that you are looking at young coaches who are not established at the elite level.  The hot coaches like Dana Altman's or Chris Lowery's of the world are a big gamble and a step backwards in my books.

I know you hate the admin for changing the nickname and that TC has somehow rubbed you the wrong way but the truth of the matter is that we are in a much better situation now than we were 10 years ago.

And while I am at it, I am so sick of these what if scenarios.  What if we are one and done next and the year after.  What if we don't make the tourny.  Well what if we make it the Final Four within the next two years.  We are just as likely to get the Final Four as we are of being one and done next year.  

[Chili]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You think boosters are spending their money because they like Crean? Or because they like the fact that Marquette's profile as a basketball program has increased with the FF, the Big East, Wade, etc.?

By your rationale, if Crean were take the Michigan job -- which he isn't going to do -- they'd go contribute to his salary in Ann Arbor.

Your point of view is laughable. You think if Crean left, we'd be back to paying our coaches $200K? You're just wrong.

By the way, nobody ever suggested the next guy would earn an equal salary. But we would be extremely competitive. That's where these boosters come in.

They are spending the money because they want Crean at Marquette. Not any other coach - Crean. Another coach isn't going to get the same love - nor would they give it to another school. These people like Crean and want him at MU. So they pay him. How difficult is this for you to realize? 

But if you think we would shell out over $1,000,000 for the next guy you are off your rocker.

Also, I think I gave you to much credit because your line about the boosters giving money to Crean at UM is horribly contrived and reaching for an extreme point which is not there.

[AlumKCof93]

Any notion of firing Crean is preposterous and would set the program back for years.  For one thing, we would have a very difficult job of hiring another desirable candidate as firing such a young, successful coach would solidify the notion that MU has an over-inflated sense of self-worth.  For those that don't recall, MU got blasted in some circles for arrogance when Deane was fired.  He was let go even though he won 100 games in 5 years.
Crean has elevated the program and positioned us well for the future as many are predicting us to be ranked in the top 15 at the beginning of next year. When was the last time we were in that position?
I understand the frustration following our tournament loss.  But for those who are anti-Crean, it should mean you won't be too upset if he leaves for another program.  Its absurd to think Crean should be shown the door.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Your point of view is laughable. You think if Crean left, we'd be back to paying our coaches $200K? You're just wrong.

By the way, nobody ever suggested the next guy would earn an equal salary. But we would be extremely competitive. That's where these boosters come in.

Couple of things...

#1 I guess we will agree to disagree about the future coaches salary. I doubt MU would go out and spend 1million to try and replace Crean unless it was somebody VERY special that MU just had to have (Majarus, or somebody from the NBA or something)

#2 You are the one who suggested that they would earn equal salary. I said that salary doesn't matter because if Crean left the donations would go down and MU would have to look for a replacement without the large donation.

You said this in your post at 9:03am

"It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend."

You said this, and then disputed it 3 posts later... what is going on here?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Your point of view is laughable. You think if Crean left, we'd be back to paying our coaches $200K? You're just wrong.

By the way, nobody ever suggested the next guy would earn an equal salary. But we would be extremely competitive. That's where these boosters come in.

Couple of things...

#1 I guess we will agree to disagree about the future coaches salary. I doubt MU would go out and spend 1million to try and replace Crean unless it was somebody VERY special that MU just had to have (Majarus, or somebody from the NBA or something)

#2 You are the one who suggested that they would earn equal salary. I said that salary doesn't matter because if Crean left the donations would go down and MU would have to look for a replacement without the large donation.

You said this in your post at 9:03am

"It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend."

You said this, and then disputed it 3 posts later... what is going on here?

You're serious?

You honestly don't understand the difference between "willing to spend money" and "willing to pay somebody the exact amount that our 8-year veteran coach made?"

So you understand, these two sentences do not have equal meaning:

1. I'm willing to spend some money on a nice new car
2. I'm willing to spend a huge wad on a Bentley

[ChicosBailBonds]

PRN

Do you want the nice new car or the Bentley?

 

[DoubleMU0609]

PETA has officially started to protest both sides of this conversation due to the cruelty to the dead horse.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

PRN

Do you want the nice new car or the Bentley?

 

I want the Bentley!!!!

My point is that if my Bentley decides to drive off, I'd be able to get around town comfortably in my nice new car.

[ChicosBailBonds]

PRN

Do you want the nice new car or the Bentley?

 

I want the Bentley!!!!

My point is that if my Bentley decides to drive off, I'd be able to get around town comfortably in my nice new car.

Yeah but the hot chicks might not dig you as much

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Your point of view is laughable. You think if Crean left, we'd be back to paying our coaches $200K? You're just wrong.

By the way, nobody ever suggested the next guy would earn an equal salary. But we would be extremely competitive. That's where these boosters come in.

Couple of things...

#1 I guess we will agree to disagree about the future coaches salary. I doubt MU would go out and spend 1million to try and replace Crean unless it was somebody VERY special that MU just had to have (Majarus, or somebody from the NBA or something)

#2 You are the one who suggested that they would earn equal salary. I said that salary doesn't matter because if Crean left the donations would go down and MU would have to look for a replacement without the large donation.

You said this in your post at 9:03am

"It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend."

You said this, and then disputed it 3 posts later... what is going on here?

You're serious?

You honestly don't understand the difference between "willing to spend money" and "willing to pay somebody the exact amount that our 8-year veteran coach made?"

So you understand, these two sentences do not have equal meaning:

1. I'm willing to spend some money on a nice new car
2. I'm willing to spend a huge wad on a Bentley

I'm just going off what you wrote before. It's there in black and white.

"It means, if he were to leave for another job, we could get another coach in here with the money we've shown we're willing to spend."

That implies that you believe MU would throw Crean type money at another coach. (maybe, but maybe not... guess that is speculative at best seen as Crean is still here).

Can we get back to talking about DJ's socks now?

[muPARTY]

couple of things... take Bill Self's total body of work, not just his succesful seasons.

Here is a link for his career record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Self

He's had some good seasons at UofI and KU, but he wasn't setting the world on fire in his first 8 seasons.

1st, that's where i got Self's stats so i saw his career.  i did the 2000 to compare during the Crean years (since they were both available at roughly the same time).  also, he had Oral Roberts and turned that program around.  TC has turned MU's program around but, looking at Mike Deane's record (one season w/o 20+ wins), he had less to rebuild.

2nd, to everyone who's commented on the $$$ part.  i understand he's not going to take less if the school's offering more, that's just plain stupid.  but at the same time, he's going to be held to higher expectations.  it's no different than that of a pro athlete who gets a huge contract and doesn't have the same results as their conterparts with similiar contracts.  maybe they're underachieving or maybe they are simply overpaid.  the fact is, there is a new measuring stick to gauge their work.  the 4 names above him- Tubby Smith, Thad Matta, Rick Barnes, Tom Izzo.  the 5 after TC- Bill Self, Jim Calhoun, Roy Williams, Lute Olsen, Billy Donovan.  forget the fact 6 of them have championships (and recent ones too), but all 9 of them have made it to the Sweet 16 (or further) at least twice.  and don't think the boosters would have a problem shelling out the big bucks for guys like those (considering some of them cost less).

[Ahoya06]

Great post, TallTitan!

Hey, did you and the crew make it down to NC for the game?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

couple of things... take Bill Self's total body of work, not just his succesful seasons.

Here is a link for his career record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Self

He's had some good seasons at UofI and KU, but he wasn't setting the world on fire in his first 8 seasons.

1st, that's where i got Self's stats so i saw his career.  i did the 2000 to compare during the Crean years (since they were both available at roughly the same time).  also, he had Oral Roberts and turned that program around.  TC has turned MU's program around but, looking at Mike Deane's record (one season w/o 20+ wins), he had less to rebuild.

2nd, to everyone who's commented on the $$$ part.  i understand he's not going to take less if the school's offering more, that's just plain stupid.  but at the same time, he's going to be held to higher expectations.  it's no different than that of a pro athlete who gets a huge contract and doesn't have the same results as their conterparts with similiar contracts.  maybe they're underachieving or maybe they are simply overpaid.  the fact is, there is a new measuring stick to gauge their work.  the 4 names above him- Tubby Smith, Thad Matta, Rick Barnes, Tom Izzo.  the 5 after TC- Bill Self, Jim Calhoun, Roy Williams, Lute Olsen, Billy Donovan.  forget the fact 6 of them have championships (and recent ones too), but all 9 of them have made it to the Sweet 16 (or further) at least twice.  and don't think the boosters would have a problem shelling out the big bucks for guys like those (considering some of them cost less).

1. I understand about comparing the same time frame, I'm just trying to get as close to apples to apples if we are going to compare records. I know Self did a nice job at Oral Roberts and built a nice program, there is no doubt. I think Crean is doing the same thing here. It's been 8 years, but the program is in much better standing now than it has been in the last 30years. Why worry?

2. I know that everybody thinks that increased money means increased expecations... I get that. I'm just saying realistically Crean could make 100million dollars and it really wouldn't matter. MU is paying X amount, and a couple of donors are pick up the rest of the tab. Why does everybody obsess about that? At this point, we can't attract any of the other top 10 that you mention... so what?

If Crean goes at this point, I think it is a step backwards for the program... I guess that wraps it up in one sentence for my point of view.

[Big Papi]

1st, that's where i got Self's stats so i saw his career.  i did the 2000 to compare during the Crean years (since they were both available at roughly the same time).  also, he had Oral Roberts and turned that program around.  TC has turned MU's program around but, looking at Mike Deane's record (one season w/o 20+ wins), he had less to rebuild.

Less to rebuild?  Deane's teams went from a second round NCAA exit, to an embarrassing first round exit where he was suspended for the next NCAA game he would coach, to an NIT season to a 14-15 losing record.  Wrong direction.

2nd, to everyone who's commented on the $$$ part.  i understand he's not going to take less if the school's offering more, that's just plain stupid.  but at the same time, he's going to be held to higher expectations.  it's no different than that of a pro athlete who gets a huge contract and doesn't have the same results as their conterparts with similiar contracts.  maybe they're underachieving or maybe they are simply overpaid.  the fact is, there is a new measuring stick to gauge their work.  the 4 names above him- Tubby Smith, Thad Matta, Rick Barnes, Tom Izzo.  the 5 after TC- Bill Self, Jim Calhoun, Roy Williams, Lute Olsen, Billy Donovan.  forget the fact 6 of them have championships (and recent ones too), but all 9 of them have made it to the Sweet 16 (or further) at least twice.  and don't think the boosters would have a problem shelling out the big bucks for guys like those (considering some of them cost less).

Not counting Deane, as it looked like he was content to stay at MU forever and take us to the NCAA tourny once every 3 to 4 years, the MU job was a stepping stone position that was going down the path of St. Louis basketball.  In other words, falling off the map of respectability.  TC is being compensated very nicely because under his tenure we reached a Final Four, he has recruited NBA players that provide our basketball program great exposure and has elevated this program to a level where we are no longer a stepping stone program. Furthermore, his success here has helped fund the AL, increased attendence at our basketball games and has positioned us to make the NCAA's for a possible 3 and 4 years in a row(something we have not seen here since Hank Raymonds was coach).  That is the measuring stick you should be guaging.  Where were we as a program in March 1999 and where are we now.  We went from a team trending towards a perinneal NIT team to a team that is on the verge of going back-to-back-to-back-to..........of the NCAA tourny.  We went from me being able to buy a ticket to a game against Cincy the night before the game to having weekend games sellout.  We went from not being mentioned by anyone in TV to turning on any basketball broadcast and having a good chance that Marquette would be mentioned at some point in time.  

You want to compare TC's salary to other coaches but you can't argue that statement logically.  First of all none of those coaches would come to MU for the amount of money that (a) TC initially received and (b) currently makes.  You think we can hire Matta and all of a sudden get the next Oden, Durant or OJ Mayo?  MU is not in a position where we can select recruits and I don't see who would be willing to come here that would change that perception.  What I can see is where TC has taken this program from where he began and how over time, he could make MU what a Calhoun did for UConn.  I think we need to look long term and not short term.  
Second, every program is different.  I think when TC got here he had some huge obstacles to overcome, greater than Indiana, UConn, North Carolina, Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, Michigan St. and Florida.  All of those are public universities with public funding that have football as their main economic driver.  We are a small private institution and the main sport generating revenue.  Do we have to overpay our coach who has overcome these obstacles?  Maybe, maybe not but so what if we did.  

I guess I just can't believe that everyone can't see that this program is in a better position now than it has been in the last 10 to 20 years.      

[muPARTY]

2002mualum, i absolutly get what you're saying.  Tom Crean has made this program (overall) the best it's been since Al, if he left now it would be a step backward, and there's no way any of those 9 other coaches are coming here if TC was to leave.

the question i was orginally getting at, back whatever number of posts ago, is "To keep his job, what's the minimum from TC/MU that people expect?"

i just get the feeling around here (MU fanbase) is that all TC needs to do is win 20 games and make the NCAA and anything after that (tournament wins) is gravy, because it's better than it used to be.  he's 2-7 in opening round games for the NCAA/NIT (1 NCAA and 1 NIT).  my contention is, raise the bar, just making the NCAAs anymore doesn't cut it, you have to win and move on, and do it yr after yr.  going to the Elite 8 or another Final Four and then having another 3-4 year drought of first round NCAA/NIT exists won't cut it either.  win and be consistent in following seasons.