MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: dgies9156 on June 03, 2020, 05:11:33 PM
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Thought this would be an fun and interesting poll. By five years, the current incoming class will be in and mostly out of Marquette and either we've made it or we haven't. Here's a little more description on each.
1) Back on Top -- Our 2020 class is the real deal. Coach Wojo follows it up with an outstanding 2021 class, which gels and learns to play together exceptionally well. Wojo finds his legs as a developer of talent and Marquette begins to be a destination school for high quality basketball talent. Wojo makes the Sweet 16 twice and the team is on an upward trajectory. Coach Wojo rejects an offer to replace Coach K at Duke, claiming he "has to find his own path" at Marquette. The Jesuits open the Treasure Chest and make Coach Wojo one of the top five highest paid basketball coaches in the nation.
2) Good but Not Great -- Marquette finally wins an NCAA game. Our 2020-2021 team begins to gel and a complementary but not great recruiting class in 2021 makes us an NCAA team again. Dawson Garcia becomes a team leader but leaves after his sophomore year. The team recovers but the lack of strong, consistent recruiting keeps us from cracking the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. Marquette fades down the stretch of what otherwise would be a great 2022-2023 season and limps into the tournament only to lose to Miami of Ohio, the MAC Champion. The BOT resists calls to Fire Coach Wojo, even though an irate Warrior fan sends a moving truck to the Wojo home.
3) Fits and Spurts -- What you see is what you get. We make the NCAA and finally get a decent first round draw. We win one or two early round games over five years but the name Marquette is never seen on NCAA brackets after the first weekend. Our kids graduate but a lack of depth and consistency means we're splitting our post-season time between the NIT, Dayton and the 9th seed in the NCAA. We have an apocalypse in 2023 when freshman Newt Riley, a burger boy from West Bumfork, Texas, leaves the team claiming the offense is built all around Garcia and Carton. By 2025, facing declining attendance at the Computing Castle, MU puts Wojo on notice but retains him for another year.
4) Fired and Reconstructing -- Dawson Garcia leaves after his sophomore year. The team collapses in 2021-2022 and wins nine games. By season's end, the only people in the Computing Castle are Sweatervests over 70 and Jesuits on free passes. Marquette loses to DePaul twice. Transfers leave the team with four returning players. Marquette reaches out to Slick Rick Pitino, who rides into town in a white BMW wearing the white suit he used to wear on the Louisville sidelines. Coach Wojo ends up coaching the University of Alabama, where he leads them to a Final Four berth in his second year and causes them to ask, "Nick who?"
5) Does Marquette Have a Basketball Team -- Persistent mediocrity, highlighted by three losses in a row to DePaul, leads to widespread apathy. Coach Wojo is hired away by the University of Minnesota, which he turns into a Final Four contender based on the high school pipeline he has in the Twin Cities. Marquette conducts a nationwide coaching search and turns to Brian Wardle to revive its basketball fortunes. Coach Wardle learns very quickly that the tactics and recruiting of the MVC don't work in the Big East. But his players are Rhodes Scholars and Marquette has the highest basketball graduation rate in the NCAA. As Coach Wardle competes with Mike Deane and Bob Dukiet for the under among Marquette coaches, the women's team becomes a national championship contender.
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I don't forsee anything but frustration and mediocrity. Wojo will do just enough to keep his job, but we will be nowhere near what the fans expect. The admin will be happy because Wojo is bland and doesn't stir up trouble. 10-8 in conference will be the new norm and a S16 will be a cause for celebration.
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I voted 2 but wish I voted 3 in retrospect
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None of the above.
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I don't forsee anything but frustration and mediocrity. Wojo will do just enough to keep his job, but we will be nowhere near what the fans expect. The admin will be happy because Wojo is bland and doesn't stir up trouble. 10-8 in conference will be the new norm and a S16 will be a cause for celebration.
This. But I would argue we should always celebrate a s-16 (Even if we are good/great).
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I don't forsee anything but frustration and mediocrity. Wojo will do just enough to keep his job, but we will be nowhere near what the fans expect. The admin will be happy because Wojo is bland and doesn't stir up trouble. 10-8 in conference will be the new norm and a S16 will be a cause for celebration.
We've advanced to the Sweet 16 five times in the last 40 years and beyond it twice in the last 40 years. I'll gladly celebrate a Sweet 16.
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Taught dis wuz gonna bee 'bout #Godblessamerica, aina?
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I don't forsee anything but frustration and mediocrity. Wojo will do just enough to keep his job, but we will be nowhere near what the fans expect. The admin will be happy because Wojo is bland and doesn't stir up trouble. 10-8 in conference will be the new norm and a S16 will be a cause for celebration.
Yep. We will win our share on f recruiting battles making it seem like things are on the upswing. But it will just lead to frustration.
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This is friggin’ great. Thank you.
(I did crack a smile reading #1; a boy can dream)
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We've advanced to the Sweet 16 five times in the last 40 years and beyond it twice in the last 40 years. I'll gladly celebrate a Sweet 16.
But 3 of those have been in the last 10 years. In fact it was 3 times in a row from 2010-2013. It had become the norm
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But 3 of those have been in the last 10 years. In fact it was 3 times in a row from 2010-2013. It had become the norm
The peak is never the norm.
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None O Above
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One of the best polls put out in recent memory!
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But 3 of those have been in the last 10 years. In fact it was 3 times in a row from 2010-2013. It had become the norm
Since when is a 3 year run on 100 years of basketball the norm? The 7 straight years before it with no Sweet 16 were the norm, too.
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Wojo will win 100 more games over the next five years. Unless he leaves for Duke.
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Wojo will win 100 more games over the next five years. Unless he leaves for Duke.
Hang a banner??
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This thread explains why there was such a long line at Arby's today.
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Hang a banner??
Only if there is a conference championship. Or a sweet 16.
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So tired
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I'd suggest there's something between 1 and 2, and most would argue that's where we were during the Crean-Buzz Era, especially Buzz.
We certainly hadn't regained blueblood status, not even close really. But going S16-S16-E8 was better than good, no?
Do I think Wojo can get us there? Probably not.
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Since I wrote the poll, I'll acknowledge how I voted.
I voted "1".
Why else would a die-hard follow a team like Marquette? You put your heart and soul into it because you believe the administration has something special built and we're waiting for the rose to bloom.
I admit that the growth curve to date has been far slower than any of us had hoped. But we hired an assistant coach who, in some ways, is learning on the job. I personally think he has some growing to do and has to still learn the whole world isn't Duke. But my candid fear is that if we cut him loose, he'll take the lessons of this job and make someone else a world-class winner. You'll notice that where he went after Marquette in Items 4 and 5, the teams ended up quite successful. He's shown he can recruit and as he learns to tailor his coaching to the players he has, I expect, hope and even pray we get better and better.
We're probably still a couple years away. We need a couple of recruiting classes like this last one, but I still believe in Coach Wojo. I'm hopeful this is not misplaced.
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Since I wrote the poll, I'll acknowledge how I voted.
I voted "1".
Why else would a die-hard follow a team like Marquette? You put your heart and soul into it because you believe the administration has something special built and we're waiting for the rose to bloom.
I admit that the growth curve to date has been far slower than any of us had hoped. But we hired an assistant coach who, in some ways, is learning on the job. I personally think he has some growing to do and has to still learn the whole world isn't Duke. But my candid fear is that if we cut him loose, he'll take the lessons of this job and make someone else a world-class winner. You'll notice that where he went after Marquette in Items 4 and 5, the teams ended up quite successful. He's shown he can recruit and as he learns to tailor his coaching to the players he has, I expect, hope and even pray we get better and better.
We're probably still a couple years away. We need a couple of recruiting classes like this last one, but I still believe in Coach Wojo. I'm hopeful this is not misplaced.
A vote for optimism. I love it, my friend.
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Since I wrote the poll, I'll acknowledge how I voted.
I voted "1".
Why else would a die-hard follow a team like Marquette? You put your heart and soul into it because you believe the administration has something special built and we're waiting for the rose to bloom.
I admit that the growth curve to date has been far slower than any of us had hoped. But we hired an assistant coach who, in some ways, is learning on the job. I personally think he has some growing to do and has to still learn the whole world isn't Duke. But my candid fear is that if we cut him loose, he'll take the lessons of this job and make someone else a world-class winner. You'll notice that where he went after Marquette in Items 4 and 5, the teams ended up quite successful. He's shown he can recruit and as he learns to tailor his coaching to the players he has, I expect, hope and even pray we get better and better.
We're probably still a couple years away. We need a couple of recruiting classes like this last one, but I still believe in Coach Wojo. I'm hopeful this is not misplaced.
I voted 3 but love your optimism. Hope it works out. Having a team out perform expectations this year would be encouraging.
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I'd love to be able to vote 1 or 2, but honesty compels me to report I voted for 3. And I'm generally an optimist.
And Wojo would probably win 100 games if he's at MU the next 5 years. But 20 wins a season is far from a big deal anymore. Over the last four full seasons with a full postseason, an average of 128 teams a year have won 20 games. In the top 6 leagues, over the last two full seasons with a full postseason, an average of 44 teams a year have won 20 games. So winning 20 games right now puts you at about the 40th percentile in a top 6 league.
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Since I wrote the poll, I'll acknowledge how I voted.
I voted "1".
Why else would a die-hard follow a team like Marquette? You put your heart and soul into it because you believe the administration has something special built and we're waiting for the rose to bloom.
I admit that the growth curve to date has been far slower than any of us had hoped. But we hired an assistant coach who, in some ways, is learning on the job. I personally think he has some growing to do and has to still learn the whole world isn't Duke. But my candid fear is that if we cut him loose, he'll take the lessons of this job and make someone else a world-class winner. You'll notice that where he went after Marquette in Items 4 and 5, the teams ended up quite successful. He's shown he can recruit and as he learns to tailor his coaching to the players he has, I expect, hope and even pray we get better and better.
We're probably still a couple years away. We need a couple of recruiting classes like this last one, but I still believe in Coach Wojo. I'm hopeful this is not misplaced.
I appreciate your optimism . However , I don’t think Wojo is Rick Majerus version 2.0. Rick did a solid job at MU and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and was smart enough to bail out to The Bucks when he did. I think Wojo is Mike Deane Version 2.0 and will have a winning career for a long time without being outstanding.
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I appreciate your optimism . However , I don’t think Wojo is Rick Majerus version 2.0. Rick did a solid job at MU and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and was smart enough to bail out to The Bucks when he did. I think Wojo is Mike Deane Version 2.0 and will have a winning career for a long time without being outstanding.
Majerus did a solid job as a head coach for everyone but MU. I'm not sure he bailed out as much as he was chased out.
Mike Deane had a "winning career" at MU for 4 years (with KO's players) before bottoming out. After that, he finished sub .500 in 9 out of 12 seasons, with 2 of those 3 winning seasons being 15-14 and 16-14. Wojo has already proven himself to be a much better coach than Deane, not even close.
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Majerus did a solid job as a head coach for everyone but MU. I'm not sure he bailed out as much as he was chased out.
Mike Deane had a "winning career" at MU for 4 years (with KO's players) before bottoming out. After that, he finished sub .500 in 9 out of 12 seasons, with 2 of those 3 winning seasons being 15-14 and 16-14. Wojo has already proven himself to be a much better coach than Deane, not even close.
Your last sentence is obvious to anybody who knows anything about basketball and who wants to take even 2 minutes to consider actual facts, but you're wasting your breath, TAMU.
The Wojo-is-the-worst-ever crowd love the Deane comparison; they get a kick out of how it makes folks like you and me respond.
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The Mike Deane revisionist history is something.
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Wojo is Crean without Wade.
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I think it is tremendously difficult to project Wojo, only because there are so few present comparative circumstances to relate to. Wojo was a first-time head coach, who was a long-time assistant at a blue blood, that took over a top-30 perceived program, which also required a rebuild upon hiring.
Many, but not all, elite-level head coaches had previous stops as a head coach in low(er) level leagues; this involves Coach K (Army), Calipari (UMass), Self (Oral Roberts), Wright (Hofstra) and Pitino (Boston), among others. A number of elite-level head coaches were assistants at their their present schools; this involves Boeheim (Syracuse), Few (Gonzaga), Williams (UNC) and Izzo (MSU), among a few others. Even high-level head coaches - Buzz (New Orleans), Mack (Xavier), Anderson (UAB), Cronin (Murray State), Howland (N. Arizona), S. Miller (Xavier), Pearl (S. Indiana), R. Barnes (George Mason), Altman (Marshall), among others, had previous HC experience at a lower level before rising the ranks. Obviously, there has been a recent trend in hiring head coaches with little-to-zero college coaching (head or assistant) in the past several years (Ewing, Mullin, Stackhouse, Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Mark Price, etc.) - but that clearly does not relate to Wojo.
In circumstances similar to Wojo, Roy Williams is one (albeit, he took over a legitimate blue blood in Kansas). He was a long-time assistant at UNC (blue blood), took over for sanction-heavy KU (after Larry Brown), and was the NCAA Runner-Up by his third year; somewhat similar, but also very different. Izzo was a long-time assistant as well (before being elevated to HC at MSU), but he was not an outside hire (thus knew the program, players, etc.), and the program was in great condition as he came in; he was in a F4 by year four. Even look at Crean - was an assistant at a top program (MSU), came into a program that needed more talent, but even he made a F4 by his 4th year. Perhaps Mike Hopkins was/is a good comparison (long-time assistant at Syracuse, takes over Washington as a first-time HC)? However, he is only in his third year as well (and UW wasn't making the tournament this year).
Does anyone else have a good comparative projection for Wojo? Obviously, the March success has not been there (yet). I guess I am looking for high-level head coaches that had a tremendous gap between their hiring and eventual success, with a similar trajectory as Wojo did (assistant at elite program, first-time HC, taking over a rebuild position).
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I have been a Wojo fan from the onset of his hire. However, he is looking like a mediocre coach. I think the Hauser brother transfers were a set back that revealed his coaching deficiencies. With the Hausers, he probably could of got Marquette to a level of recruiting that could cover his coaching shortcomings. In any case, I am a MU fan and wish the team the best.
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I attended MU during the Deane era. Deane could game coach and his teams exceeded their talent level in many of his seasons. But coaching requires recruiting and Deane often failed in that regard. Wojo isn’t as extreme as Deane in either category—he is simply a mediocre 8-10 to 10-8 conference season coach.
He is not bad enough to fire, but not good enough to want to keep him around.
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I think this years team without Carton and Perez is only a Georgetown away from last place. With them they are still in the bottom four. We all know freshmen have trouble competing in Big East. Having only John and Cain as returning front line players is going to end up being a disaster. Wojo is going to get a lot of heat (rightly so), but to me it is more about team building vs. coaching. Wojo should be kept if this years class is also a great class, which would be two great back to back classes. That equals team building to me. However, if he strikes out on this next class, I see no reason to keep him.
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We've advanced to the Sweet 16 five times in the last 40 years and beyond it twice in the last 40 years. I'll gladly celebrate a Sweet 16.
Prior to Wojo, we reached the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in 10 years. Let's not be disingenuous about the status of our program. Compare Wojo to the tumult of the late 80s and early 90s if you must, but he is the one that took us back there after we had seemingly turned a corner.
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Prior to Wojo, we reached the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in 10 years. Let's not be disingenuous about the status of our program. Compare Wojo to the tumult of the late 80s and early 90s if you must, but he is the one that took us back there after we had seemingly turned a corner.
We didn’t make the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in the decade leading up to Wojo. And we aren’t where we were in our worst periods in the 80s and 90s.
But sure that’s cool. We also made it beyond that once. So we shouldn’t celebrate what had been our 2nd best results in that past decade? Fair enough I guess. I’ll celebrate it, you can be unreasonable about it.
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We didn’t make the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in the decade leading up to Wojo. And we aren’t where we were in our worst periods in the 80s and 90s.
But sure that’s cool. We also made it beyond that once. So we shouldn’t celebrate what had been our 2nd best results in that past decade? Fair enough I guess. I’ll celebrate it, you can be unreasonable about it.
2002-2003 to 2012-2013? Is this not a decade? Or are we somehow splitting hairs about the semantics of the cutoff year because otherwise you'd be unable to have a point?
We made it beyond the Sweet Sixteen twice in that period (which I suppose is now not a decade....)
I've missed you PettyWorld
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Is a program or its trend based on 5 years? 10? 20? 40?
What timeline determines a program's success?
Especially in a sport where a single player or a single coach can have an enormous impact
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2002-2003 to 2012-2013? Is this not a decade? Or are we somehow splitting hairs about the semantics of the cutoff year because otherwise you'd be unable to have a point?
We made it beyond the Sweet Sixteen twice in that period (which I suppose is now not a decade....)
I've missed you PettyWorld
Wojo took over for the 2014-2015 season. So no. 2002-2003 was not part of the decade prior to Wojo taking over.
Math is hard.
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Majerus did a solid job as a head coach for everyone but MU. I'm not sure he bailed out as much as he was chased out.
Mike Deane had a "winning career" at MU for 4 years (with KO's players) before bottoming out. After that, he finished sub .500 in 9 out of 12 seasons, with 2 of those 3 winning seasons being 15-14 and 16-14. Wojo has already proven himself to be a much better coach recruiter than Deane, not even close.
Fixed. Deane was a better coach. Wojo a better recruiter. Though Deane was recruiting with the handicaps of Old Gym, C-USA, and only sporadic televised games.
As for our future, likely will be a repeat of years 2-6 of Wojo regime. Good enough to not get fired, but highwater marks of NCAA and perhaps Round of 32s.
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Wojo took over for the 2014-2015 season. So no. 2002-2003 was not part of the decade prior to Wojo taking over.
Math is hard.
OK... Sweet Sixteen 3 of the 10 years prior to Wojo (note I never said immediately prior to Wojo, anyway - reading is hard!!)
Again, my point stands - you..... decided to take a bath in semantics because you have no real comeback.
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As for our future, likely will be a repeat of years 2-6 of Wojo regime. Good enough to not get fired, but highwater marks of NCAA and perhaps Round of 32s.
I think this sums up what I think the future will be. I'd hope we break lucky or something but he seems like he'll be another Mcdermott, Willard, Cooley. Always there never makes noise.
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Fixed. Deane was a better coach. Wojo a better recruiter. Though Deane was recruiting with the handicaps of Old Gym, C-USA, and only sporadic televised games.
As for our future, likely will be a repeat of years 2-6 of Wojo regime. Good enough to not get fired, but highwater marks of NCAA and perhaps Round of 32s.
There's no fixing needed. Being a recruiter is part of being a college basketball coach. I don't care if a coach gets it done with recruiting or in game coaching, Wojo's results are miles better than Deane's.
I also think most here overestimate Wojo's recruiting abilities and underestimate his in game coaching abilities.
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I think the Hauser brother transfers were a set back that revealed his coaching deficiencies. With the Hausers, he probably could of got Marquette to a level of recruiting that could cover his coaching shortcomings.
Had the Hausers stayed and been willing to be good teammates, we would have been a significantly better team this past season. That's just obvious. Had even only Sam stayed we'd have been much better.
I also was extremely concerned that the negativity of that situation would hurt us badly from a recruiting standpoint. Then Wojo went out and signed a top-20 class and landed one of the best couple of transfers. So I really don't think it affected us much from a recruiting standpoint.
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Had the Hausers stayed and been willing to be good teammates, we would have been a significantly better team this past season. That's just obvious. Had even only Sam stayed we'd have been much better.
I also was extremely concerned that the negativity of that situation would hurt us badly from a recruiting standpoint. Then Wojo went out and signed a top-20 class and landed one of the best couple of transfers. So I really don't think it affected us much from a recruiting standpoint.
Plus we would've seen wojos actual vision for the 2016 Recruiting class at least
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I think it is tremendously difficult to project Wojo, only because there are so few present comparative circumstances to relate to. Wojo was a first-time head coach, who was a long-time assistant at a blue blood, that took over a top-30 perceived program, which also required a rebuild upon hiring.
Many, but not all, elite-level head coaches had previous stops as a head coach in low(er) level leagues; this involves Coach K (Army), Calipari (UMass), Self (Oral Roberts), Wright (Hofstra) and Pitino (Boston), among others. A number of elite-level head coaches were assistants at their their present schools; this involves Boeheim (Syracuse), Few (Gonzaga), Williams (UNC) and Izzo (MSU), among a few others. Even high-level head coaches - Buzz (New Orleans), Mack (Xavier), Anderson (UAB), Cronin (Murray State), Howland (N. Arizona), S. Miller (Xavier), Pearl (S. Indiana), R. Barnes (George Mason), Altman (Marshall), among others, had previous HC experience at a lower level before rising the ranks. Obviously, there has been a recent trend in hiring head coaches with little-to-zero college coaching (head or assistant) in the past several years (Ewing, Mullin, Stackhouse, Hardaway, Avery Johnson, Mark Price, etc.) - but that clearly does not relate to Wojo.
In circumstances similar to Wojo, Roy Williams is one (albeit, he took over a legitimate blue blood in Kansas). He was a long-time assistant at UNC (blue blood), took over for sanction-heavy KU (after Larry Brown), and was the NCAA Runner-Up by his third year; somewhat similar, but also very different. Izzo was a long-time assistant as well (before being elevated to HC at MSU), but he was not an outside hire (thus knew the program, players, etc.), and the program was in great condition as he came in; he was in a F4 by year four. Even look at Crean - was an assistant at a top program (MSU), came into a program that needed more talent, but even he made a F4 by his 4th year. Perhaps Mike Hopkins was/is a good comparison (long-time assistant at Syracuse, takes over Washington as a first-time HC)? However, he is only in his third year as well (and UW wasn't making the tournament this year).
Does anyone else have a good comparative projection for Wojo? Obviously, the March success has not been there (yet). I guess I am looking for high-level head coaches that had a tremendous gap between their hiring and eventual success, with a similar trajectory as Wojo did (assistant at elite program, first-time HC, taking over a rebuild position).
This is a really good post that forces folks to do some thinking.
The two best comps I can think of are fellow Dookies.
TOMMY AMAKER: Starting PG and captain at Duke but not good enough for the NBA; 9 years as a college assistant, all at Duke; got his first head-coaching job at a Big East school, Seton Hall.
CHRIS COLLINS: Starting PG and captain at Duke but not good enough for the NBA; 14 years as a college assistant, the last 12 at Duke; got his first head-coaching job at a Big 14 school, Northwestern.
Wojo has performed consistently better than either of them did through the first 6 seasons, with more NCAA tourney appearances than both of them combined (assuming one this past year). He also came into a much better situation than either of them did.
Amaker does get points for taking Seton Hall to the Sweet 16 in his 3rd year but otherwise failed to make the NCAA tournament either at SH or in 6 years at Michigan; he often struggled to even produce winning records.
Collins got Northwestern its first NCAA berth ever, and even won a tourney game, but otherwise has had 5 losing seasons in 7 years, including 8-22 this past season.
Otherwise, Crean is the closest comparison I can think of.
Assistant for 12 years, albeit at several different schools. Assistant at a blueblood (or near-BB, depending upon how one describes Michigan State) for 4 years. Marquette was his first head-coaching job - he had never even been a HC at the middle-school level before that.
The program he took over was in worse shape than the one Wojo took over by just about any measure, but their coaching career paths were similar.
The Scoopers who have described Wojo as "Crean without Wade" ... that's as apt a comparison as I can think of.
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Prior to Wojo, we reached the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in 10 years. Let's not be disingenuous about the status of our program. Compare Wojo to the tumult of the late 80s and early 90s if you must, but he is the one that took us back there after we had seemingly turned a corner.
You are not doing it right. You see, when reporting achievements here you are obligated to take the longer view here. You cannot say Wojo has made the NCAAs 3 of 4 years, instead you have to say 3 in 6 years (or 3 in 7 including Coach Williams last year).
Therefore, the Sweet 16 four times in ten years really should be four times in the last 17 years, or five times in the last 25 years. Panda and MUGURU can explain why this is done because it bewilders me.
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I'd love to be able to vote 1 or 2, but honesty compels me to report I voted for 3. And I'm generally an optimist.
And Wojo would probably win 100 games if he's at MU the next 5 years. But 20 wins a season is far from a big deal anymore. Over the last four full seasons with a full postseason, an average of 128 teams a year have won 20 games. In the top 6 leagues, over the last two full seasons with a full postseason, an average of 44 teams a year have won 20 games. So winning 20 games right now puts you at about the 40th percentile in a top 6 league.
But that doesn't tie back with your 100 wins over 5 years. It's fine to suggest in any given year 128 teams do it or 44 do it in a P6 league. Now do the math for teams that do it over a 5 year period and it isn't 40th percentile. Your data answers a question or statement you didn't pose.
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Fixed. Deane was a better coach. Wojo a better recruiter. Though Deane was recruiting with the handicaps of Old Gym, C-USA, and only sporadic televised games.
As for our future, likely will be a repeat of years 2-6 of Wojo regime. Good enough to not get fired, but highwater marks of NCAA and perhaps Round of 32s.
Deane was coaching in conference that pale in comparison to what Wojo coaches in.
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I don't forsee anything but frustration and mediocrity. Wojo will do just enough to keep his job, but we will be nowhere near what the fans expect. The admin will be happy because Wojo is bland and doesn't stir up trouble. 10-8 in conference will be the new norm and a S16 will be a cause for celebration.
Unfortynately, you are close. Sweet 16 is unattainable under Wojo
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Prior to Wojo, we reached the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in 10 years. Let's not be disingenuous about the status of our program. Compare Wojo to the tumult of the late 80s and early 90s if you must, but he is the one that took us back there after we had seemingly turned a corner.
Just the facts mam.
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There's no fixing needed. Being a recruiter is part of being a college basketball coach. I don't care if a coach gets it done with recruiting or in game coaching, Wojo's results are miles better than Deane's.
I also think most here overestimate Wojo's recruiting abilities and underestimate his in game coaching abilities.
Shirley...you cant be serious. His in game coaching abilities are....wait for it...mediocre.
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There's no fixing needed. Being a recruiter is part of being a college basketball coach. I don't care if a coach gets it done with recruiting or in game coaching, Wojo's results are miles better than Deane's.
I also think most here overestimate Wojo's recruiting abilities and underestimate his in game coaching abilities.
Except they're not.
However, thanks for the clarification that recruiting is part of being a college basketball coach. So is in-game coaching. And if you can't coach, you sure AF better be able to recruit at a high level.
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Except they're not.
However, thanks for the clarification that recruiting is part of being a college basketball coach. So is in-game coaching. And if you can't coach, you sure AF better be able to recruit at a high level.
Wojo has a slightly worse overall record, but that was in the CUSA which you pretty much said was a worse conference. Deane has one more NCAA win in what would have likely been one less appearance.
But Buzz left much less talent for Wojo than O'Neal did for Deane. And the trendlines showed where Deane was heading.
Another poor take from Elon in a week full of them.
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Majerus did a solid job as a head coach for everyone but MU. I'm not sure he bailed out as much as he was chased out.
Mike Deane had a "winning career" at MU for 4 years (with KO's players) before bottoming out. After that, he finished sub .500 in 9 out of 12 seasons, with 2 of those 3 winning seasons being 15-14 and 16-14. Wojo has already proven himself to be a much better coach than Deane, not even close.
Don't necessarily want to go down the same roads we have traveled before . However, Wojo had Buzz players. In fact 3 of them started most of the season in 2016-17. He also had two players from Buzz who made the NBA.
Elonsmusk can provide the details in case you forgot.
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You cannot say Wojo has made the NCAAs 3 of 4 years.
To be fair. This is a very meh accomplishment in and of itself. Throw in some NCAAT wins or a Big East Title (tourney or reg season), and I'd be impressed. On its own... MEH!
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Wojo has a slightly worse overall record, but that was in the CUSA which you pretty much said was a worse conference. Deane has one more NCAA win in what would have likely been one less appearance.
But Buzz left much less talent for Wojo than O'Neal did for Deane. And the trendlines showed where Deane was heading.
Another poor take from Elon in a week full of them.
Doesn't matter what you inherit if you don't know how to coach or utilize what was left. Recruiting to C-USA, the Old Gym, and when MU was rarely on TV certainly was harder than all of the luxuries Wojo has had at his disposal.
The fact we are even debating the performance of Wojo against Mike F'in Deane speaks volumes.
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Don't necessarily want to go down the same roads we have traveled before . However, Wojo had Buzz players. In fact 3 of them started in the NCAA game. He also had two players from Buzz who made the NBA.
Elonsmusk can provide the details in case you forgot.
Bull $hit Juan was the only one who started and he was not getting a lot of minutes for the most part.
And as far as making the NBA it's almost like players get better with age! Crazy concept right?
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Don't necessarily want to go down the same roads we have traveled before . However, Wojo had Buzz players. In fact 3 of them started in the NCAA game. He also had two players from Buzz who made the NBA.
Elonsmusk can provide the details in case you forgot.
No they didn't. Only 1 Buzz era player was a starter in that game. The starters were Howard, Rowsey, Duane, Sammy, and Heldt. But I do think it is telling that those three's college ceiling was to be the 3rd, 4th, and 8th best players on a team that earned a 10 seed.
Any objective observer would tell you that Buzz handed Wojo a worse roster than what KO handed Deane. Any objective observer would also tell you that KO handed Deane a worse program than what Buzz handed Wojo.
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Shirley...you cant be serious. His in game coaching abilities are....wait for it...mediocre.
Not what the data indicates. Some of the best indicators of in game coaching are records in close games, OT games as well as efficiency numbers on out of timeout plays (including defending out of a timeout). Wojo's numbers in these areas are actually very good compared to other coaches.
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Except they're not.
However, thanks for the clarification that recruiting is part of being a college basketball coach. So is in-game coaching. And if you can't coach, you sure AF better be able to recruit at a high level.
I don't think I ever said or suggested that in game coaching isn't part of being a coach. Deane got his results with great Xs and Os and terrible recruiting. Wojo got his results with good recruiting and good Xs and Os. So far, Wojo's results have been better.
The fact we are even debating the performance of Wojo against Mike F'in Deane speaks volumes.
Any idiot can debate anything. Doesn't mean there's any legitimacy to their argument.
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This is a really good post that forces folks to do some thinking.
The two best comps I can think of are fellow Dookies.
TOMMY AMAKER: Starting PG and captain at Duke but not good enough for the NBA; 9 years as a college assistant, all at Duke; got his first head-coaching job at a Big East school, Seton Hall.
CHRIS COLLINS: Starting PG and captain at Duke but not good enough for the NBA; 14 years as a college assistant, the last 12 at Duke; got his first head-coaching job at a Big 14 school, Northwestern.
Wojo has performed consistently better than either of them did through the first 6 seasons, with more NCAA tourney appearances than both of them combined (assuming one this past year). He also came into a much better situation than either of them did.
Amaker does get points for taking Seton Hall to the Sweet 16 in his 3rd year but otherwise failed to make the NCAA tournament either at SH or in 6 years at Michigan; he often struggled to even produce winning records.
Collins got Northwestern its first NCAA berth ever, and even won a tourney game, but otherwise has had 5 losing seasons in 7 years, including 8-22 this past season.
Otherwise, Crean is the closest comparison I can think of.
Assistant for 12 years, albeit at several different schools. Assistant at a blueblood (or near-BB, depending upon how one describes Michigan State) for 4 years. Marquette was his first head-coaching job - he had never even been a HC at the middle-school level before that.
The program he took over was in worse shape than the one Wojo took over by just about any measure, but their coaching career paths were similar.
The Scoopers who have described Wojo as "Crean without Wade" ... that's as apt a comparison as I can think of.
You think the MU Wojo took over was in better shape than what Crean had coming in? Not so sure. Both took on garbage piles, but Buzz left Wojo with a special kind of stink. However, I’d say both coaches are comparable. Yeah, TC had the Final4, but he also followed that with back-to-back NIT bids. Wojo, 2 NCAA, 1projected NCAA and 1 NIT in 6 seasons to date...so I do see where both are comparable. Going forward, I’m projecting MU a NCAA 10-seed (w/DJ) or thereabouts in ‘20/21. Thinking beyond next season gives me a headache. 😀
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No they didn't. Only 1 Buzz era player was a starter in that game. The starters were Howard, Rowsey, Duane, Sammy, and Heldt. But I do think it is telling that those three's college ceiling was to be the 3rd, 4th, and 8th best players on a team that earned a 10 seed.
Any objective observer would tell you that Buzz handed Wojo a worse roster than what KO handed Deane. Any objective observer would also tell you that KO handed Deane a worse program than what Buzz handed Wojo.
Luke,JJJ, Duane were all key players for Wojo throughout their time at MU. Deonte and Juan made the NBA and Dawson made the G League ( second best league in the world) for the last three years. So there was plenty of talent available. Give Deane that talent and he would have done much better than Wojo.
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Luke,JJJ, Duane were all key players for Wojo throughout their time at MU. Deonte and Juan made the NBA and Dawson made the G League ( second best league in the world) for the last three years. So there was plenty of talent available. Give Deane that talent and he would have done much better than Wojo.
If you are saying Deane would have had a better first three years than Wojo did, then I agree. I think Deane was the better Xs and Os coach. But he would have flamed out by year 4 when his recruiting efforts came up empty.
If you are saying that Wojo's first roster was better than Deane's first roster, you're crazy. Wojo's team was coming off missing the NIT and lost 5/6 of its top players (that doesn't even count Deonte leaving after his mother's death). Deane's team was coming off a Sweet 16 and had Tony Miller, Roney Eford, Amal McCaskill, Anthony Pieper, Faisal Abraham, and Chris Crawford all returning
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If you are saying Deane would have had a better first three years than Wojo did, then I agree. I think Deane was the better Xs and Os coach. But he would have flamed out by year 4 when his recruiting efforts came up empty.
If you are saying that Wojo's first roster was better than Deane's first roster, you're crazy. Wojo's team was coming off missing the NIT and lost 5/6 of its top players (that doesn't even count Deonte leaving after his mother's death). Deane's team was coming off a Sweet 16 and had Tony Miller, Roney Eford, Amal McCaskill, Anthony Pieper, Faisal Abraham, and Chris Crawford all returning
And Hutchins coming in as a freshman.
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Not what the data indicates. Some of the best indicators of in game coaching are records in close games, OT games as well as efficiency numbers on out of timeout plays (including defending out of a timeout). Wojo's numbers in these areas are actually very good compared to other coaches.
This is opinion. What are the facts?
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Deane was coaching in conference that pale in comparison to what Wojo coaches in.
It's amazing how much you post in the absence of chicos.
Could you provide me with the $200 from the bet we had?
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I don't think I ever said or suggested that in game coaching isn't part of being a coach. Deane got his results with great Xs and Os and terrible recruiting. Wojo got his results with good recruiting and good Xs and Os. So far, Wojo's results have been better.
Any idiot can debate anything. Doesn't mean there's any legitimacy to their argument.
And I don't think I ever said or suggested that recruiting isn't part of being a coach. You chose to interject that recruiting was part of being a coach (Duh.)
Regarding the any idiot can debate anything? I agree. Just like there wasn't any legitimacy to the Golden Power Point and it actually actualizing. Year 7 and we are scrambling to fill a roster with transfers, and project for the bottom half of the Big East..coming on the heels of two epic end of season collapses with "all of his guys."
But hey, carry on. The handful of posters here who dug in and said Wojo was the goods - there's been little legitimacy to their arguments for 6 years.
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OK... Sweet Sixteen 3 of the 10 years prior to Wojo (note I never said immediately prior to Wojo, anyway - reading is hard!!)
Again, my point stands - you..... decided to take a bath in semantics because you have no real comeback.
And my point stands. We've been to the Sweet 16 5 times in the last 40 years and beyond it twice in the last 40 years. But if Wojo gets to one it's embarrassing that we actually have to celebrate that.
:o
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I voted for option 6:
JB gets released from Scoop prison camp and is immediately hired by Wojo as director of stats, #ft’snomatta, AAU scouting, and cheerleader development. 17 NC’s in a row, and JB retires..... as a single man and goes into acting playing the part of The Most Interesting Man in The World in Schmidt Beer commercials.
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This is opinion. What are the facts?
I literally gave you facts in the post you quoted
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I literally gave you facts in the post you quoted
Mazo's burgers won't look at facts
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Luke,JJJ, Duane were all key players for Wojo throughout their time at MU. Deonte and Juan made the NBA and Dawson made the G League ( second best league in the world) for the last three years. So there was plenty of talent available. Give Deane that talent and he would have done much better than Wojo.
LoL the G League might be about the 4th best league in the world. The G league is garbage basketball that is why the salaries suck. But of course we have the 9-9-9 clown....
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It's amazing how much you post in the absence of chicos.
Could you provide me with the $200 from the bet we had?
I have increased my messages since COVID. There is no denying that. Home, less to do, allowed to do less by the people in charge, no sports to watch, friends and family harder to see. That will start to change as life slowly begins to normalize. Some of the toxicity here isn’t good for the soul anyway.
I didn’t make a bet with you and therefore owe you nothing. Take it up with him. A moderator in one of the message subjects said he was due a while back from suspension. Reach out to him. Good luck.
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And I don't think I ever said or suggested that recruiting isn't part of being a coach. You chose to interject that recruiting was part of being a coach (Duh.)
Regarding the any idiot can debate anything? I agree. Just like there wasn't any legitimacy to the Golden Power Point and it actually actualizing. Year 7 and we are scrambling to fill a roster with transfers, and project for the bottom half of the Big East..coming on the heels of two epic end of season collapses with "all of his guys."
But hey, carry on. The handful of posters here who dug in and said Wojo was the goods - there's been little legitimacy to their arguments for 6 years.
You erroneously crossed out coach and replaced it with recruiter. I assumed you were confused.
The rest of you post might make more sense if there was more than 2 or 3 posters (I'm counting all of Chicos' user names as one ;D) on this site who have actually argued that "Wojo has the goods." From what I've seen, there are a significant few way off in NoJo land, next to nobody in Projo town, and a large amount of people in middle who can recognize that we have had is good but not great and wish it would be better. The problem you have is that you assume anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a Wojo worshiper. Not everything is binary.
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But that doesn't tie back with your 100 wins over 5 years. It's fine to suggest in any given year 128 teams do it or 44 do it in a P6 league. Now do the math for teams that do it over a 5 year period and it isn't 40th percentile. Your data answers a question or statement you didn't pose.
The point is someone thought winning 20 games is a big deal. It's not. And hasn't been for a while.
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The point is someone thought winning 20 games is a big deal. It's not. And hasn't been for a while.
I don't think it's a big deal per se. But you also don't see many coaches getting fired after 20 win seasons. And therein lies the problem this board has with Wojo. He's too good to fire, he's not good enough to really get anyone excited about him as a coach. Eventually, something will give, one way or the other.
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I don't think it's a big deal per se. But you also don't see many coaches getting fired after 20 win seasons. And therein lies the problem this board has with Wojo. He's too good to fire, he's not good enough to really get anyone excited about him as a coach. Eventually, something will give, one way or the other.
He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches. I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.
I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.
Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".
I was on the right side of history on that one. I'm on the right side of history here.
LET'S MOVE ON!!!
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He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches. I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.
I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.
Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".
I was on the right side of history on that one. I'm on the right side of history here.
LET'S MOVE ON!!!
I’ll go ahead and say unless we’re hiring Cal, Wright, Bennet, maybe Roy, K...that might be it. We won’t be finding a coach who is going to win a national title at MU. And we aren’t hiring any of those 5. So fold the program?
I’d love Wojo to be Alex Smith. The good thing about coaches is they by and large don’t get injured, and when they do it doesn’t prevent them from being successful. Alex Smith went 13-3 in SF and then started 6-2-1 before injuring his back. He also went 11-4, 11-5, and 11-4 in 3 of the 5 years as a starter in KC. Heck, he had the Washington freaking Redskins at 6-3 going into the Texans game when he shredded his knee.
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I’ll go ahead and say unless we’re hiring Cal, Wright, Bennet, maybe Roy, K...that might be it. We won’t be finding a coach who is going to win a national title at MU. And we aren’t hiring any of those 5. So fold the program?
Well I'd argue that a Super Bowl for an NFL team is more akin to an Elite Eight (or multiple Sweet Sixteens) for a college program. I submit, Marquette (and many other college programs) can likely only dream of a full blown National Title.
But there is a coach out there that could take us to an Elite Eight or multiple Sweet Sixteens. Before you ask, no I don't know who he is. But I don't get paid to know that. There are several people that get paid a lot of money to try to solve that riddle.
The Alex Smith thing was an analogy. It's not meant to be a literal 1-for-1. The point is that a portion of the Chiefs fanbase (analogous to Projos) was content, but management (analogous to our admin) recognized that the franchise had a higher ceiling and acted fast. It worked out great.
You've just admitted that you would have been in the portion happy with Alex Smith (and likely criticizing the Mahomes pick). Congratulations, you're on the wrong side of history even when you know how it ends...
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Fire Wojo! Hire Mahomes!
I’m on board.
Now, instead of wasting your time on Scoop, please initiate correspondence with Lovell and keep haranguing him until he fires Wojo and hires Majomes.
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Well I'd argue that a Super Bowl for an NFL team is more akin to an Elite Eight (or multiple Sweet Sixteens) for a college program. I submit, Marquette (and many other college programs) can likely only dream of a full blown National Title.
But there is a coach out there that could take us to an Elite Eight or multiple Sweet Sixteens. Before you ask, no I don't know who he is. But I don't get paid to know that. There are several people that get paid a lot of money to try to solve that riddle.
The Alex Smith thing was an analogy. It's not meant to be a literal 1-for-1. The point is that a portion of the Chiefs fanbase (analogous to Projos) was content, but management (analogous to our admin) recognized that the franchise had a higher ceiling and acted fast. It worked out great.
I am certain there are people who would do better than Wojo has at MU. I am also certain that even those who are paid to decide who that person is have 0 way of knowing for sure. Wojo needs to be better down the stretch of seasons. I expect he will.
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Fire Wojo! Hire Mahomes!
I’m on board.
Now, instead of wasting your time on Scoop, please initiate correspondence with Lovett and keep haranguing him until he fires Wojo and hires Majomes.
Students have sent open letters to MUBB and Lovell multiple times the past couple of years. Might as well be tossing them into the abyss.
Step 1 is identifying that we have a ceiling with Wojo, and the ceiling is lower than it should be. We can try our hand at Step 2 once Step 1 has been addressed.
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I am certain there are people who would do better than Wojo has at MU. I am also certain that even those who are paid to decide who that person is have 0 way of knowing for sure. Wojo needs to be better down the stretch of seasons. I expect he will.
Thank you for a rational response Wades (we can get along!). I'm only saying that Chiefs fans likely would have said the same about their front office finding a QB. I'm sure they're happy now that that they gave it a try.
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Students have sent open letters to MUBB and Lovell multiple times the past couple of years. Might as well be tossing them into the abyss.
Step 1 is identifying that we have a ceiling with Wojo, and the ceiling is lower than it should be. We can try our hand at Step 2 once Step 1 has been addressed.
Keep it going. University presidents always listen to 19-year-olds for advice on firing 20-win, NCAA tourney coaches who recruit well, run clean programs, and represent universities with class.
Happens all the time!
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Keep it going. University presidents always listen to 19-year-olds for advice on firing 20-win, NCAA tourney coaches who recruit well, run clean programs, and represent universities with class.
Happens all the time!
Funny that you scoff at my response to the suggestion you just made.
Also - wow! A coach like that must have had some big time success at MU! What's his resume look like if you don't mind me asking?
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Funny that you scoff at my response to the suggestion you just made.
Also - wow! A coach like that must have had some big time success at MU! What's his resume look like if you don't mind me asking?
I'll answer my own question:
K Crony - 358 years
MUBB Head Coach - 7 years
- 0 NCAA tourney wins
- 0 Big East regular season titles
- 0 Big East tourney titles
- .520 Big East all time
- 1 NIT Elite Eight (banner)
- 48 transfers out
- 4 losses to DePaul (most recently 3-3-2020)
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Let's take a closer look at that Chiefs analogy, but actually comparing head coaches not QBs. IMO Andy Reid is a better comparison, consistently getting into the playoffs with the Eagles but never getting that Super Bowl. Good enough to keep around, but not good enough to lead a team to the promised land (sound familiar?). First two year streak of not making the playoffs in his career and his contract was allowed to run out. Moves on to a new team and initially looks like it SSDD; consistently making the playoffs but never getting his ring...until he did. Now, this by no means guarantees that Wojo will will his Super Bowl equivalent but it is precedent for a (good not great) coach finally getting over the hump. Now, how long until people are convinced that we have 2012 Reid and not 2019 Reid? IDK, some already are, others aren't so sure yet.
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Thank god we have another thread to discuss Wojo.
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Thank god we have another thread to discuss Wojo.
Quiet, you. It's been several months.
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Let's take a closer look at that Chiefs analogy, but actually comparing head coaches not QBs. IMO Andy Reid is a better comparison, consistently getting into the playoffs with the Eagles but never getting that Super Bowl. Good enough to keep around, but not good enough to lead a team to the promised land (sound familiar?). First two year streak of not making the playoffs in his career and his contract was allowed to run out. Moves on to a new team and initially looks like it SSDD; consistently making the playoffs but never getting his ring...until he did. Now, this by no means guarantees that Wojo will will his Super Bowl equivalent but it is precedent for a (good not great) coach finally getting over the hump. Now, how long until people are convinced that we have 2012 Reid and not 2019 Reid? IDK, some already are, others aren't so sure yet.
I love Reid as a coach, and he absolutely contributed to that Super Bowl. But the main reason they won is because they replaced Smith with Mahomes (along with other shrewd roster moves). Let's not distort the truth.
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You erroneously crossed out coach and replaced it with recruiter. I assumed you were confused.
The rest of you post might make more sense if there was more than 2 or 3 posters (I'm counting all of Chicos' user names as one ;D) on this site who have actually argued that "Wojo has the goods." From what I've seen, there are a significant few way off in NoJo land, next to nobody in Projo town, and a large amount of people in middle who can recognize that we have had is good but not great and wish it would be better. The problem you have is that you assume anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a Wojo worshiper. Not everything is binary.
Well 21 Scoopers currently think we will be back on top in 5 years with Wojo trending us toward Blueblood.
When you have a posting history of finding ways to rationalize and justify a coach's performance for nearly 5 years straight, that pretty much makes you a ProJo. We all know the hardcore ones, Chicos aliases aside. There were about 15 of you guys. About 10 have jumped off.
As for binary, yes, I did think starting Derrick Wilson and playing him for 33 minutes a game with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino on the roster was a binary decision, just as it was for Buzz the year prior. As it relates to a coach, in my view it is a binary decision - he either has "it" or he's "just a guy." We have a "just a guy." But, he is a good man, clean cut, brings "good" kids into the program. We know MU under Wojo won't take risks on kids from the hood. The hypocrisy is rich.
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I love Reid as a coach, and he absolutely contributed to that Super Bowl. But the main reason they won is because they replaced Smith with Mahomes (along with other shrewd roster moves). Let's not distort the truth.
Mahomes certainly played a large part, and there are going to be flaws anytime you have a cross sport analogy, I'm just saying that Reid fits the idea that a good coach that couldn't get it done (even with an elite player at the most important position), can eventually reach the heights that all aspire to.
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He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches. I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.
I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.
Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".
I was on the right side of history on that one. I'm on the right side of history here.
LET'S MOVE ON!!!
I cannot believe this analogy isn’t alcohol induced.
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I cannot believe this analogy isn’t alcohol induced.
The concepts are identical: High floor, low ceiling guy keeps fans happy enough while not delivering (really incapable of delivering) what the franchise / program is really capable of. Proactive action on the part of higher-ups proves to be genius. It's not a literal 1-for-1, but the concept is the same.
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Mahomes certainly played a large part, and there are going to be flaws anytime you have a cross sport analogy, I'm just saying that Reid fits the idea that a good coach that couldn't get it done (even with an elite player at the most important position), can eventually reach the heights that all aspire to.
It took him two years to reach the mountaintop with an elite player at the most important position. Wojo had an elite player at the most important position (in college) for four straight years and did diddly. You're dunking on yourself here.
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It took him two years to reach the mountaintop with an elite player at the most important position. Wojo had an elite player at the most important position (in college) for four straight years and did diddly. You're dunking on yourself here.
And this is why cross sport analogies have their flaws. QB is more important to football than PG is to basketball. Professional is much different than college. Before Reid got his second elite QB in Mahomes he had an elite QB in McNabb for his entire prime and continually came up short. If you're convinced that all Wojo is, is a 2012 Reid that's fine, and while I'm far from convinced that he's 2019 Reid, I'm not ready to move on from him yet. I still think he can improve and reach new heights here at MU.
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Well 21 Scoopers currently think we will be back on top in 5 years with Wojo trending us toward Blueblood.
When you have a posting history of finding ways to rationalize and justify a coach's performance for nearly 5 years straight, that pretty much makes you a ProJo. We all know the hardcore ones, Chicos aliases aside. There were about 15 of you guys. About 10 have jumped off.
I don't think this is true. I can only think of 2 or 3 posters who have said that Wojo has been greater than his results actually show. Most that you label as "ProJo" are people who are optimistic that he can continue to improve and get us to where we want to go. This is fundamentally different from posters who have declared that Wojo is a terrible coach and needs to be fired. I've criticized the ProJos when they make ridiculous arguments just as much as I have the NoJos when they make ridiculous arguments. The difference is that there are a lot more NoJos.
As for binary, yes, I did think starting Derrick Wilson and playing him for 33 minutes a game with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino on the roster was a binary decision, just as it was for Buzz the year prior. As it relates to a coach, in my view it is a binary decision - he either has "it" or he's "just a guy." We have a "just a guy." But, he is a good man, clean cut, brings "good" kids into the program. We know MU under Wojo won't take risks on kids from the hood. The hypocrisy is rich.
Ners, I know you think repeating the mantra of "I knew 10 games in that Wojo didn't have it" makes you a basketball genius. All it actually shows is that your initial assessment of Wojo was completely based on how much playing time John Dawson got vs. Derrick Wilson. During Buzz' last year, you turned into a caricature of yourself and your entire identity on this site was centered around your assertion that Dawson was better than Derrick. When Buzz left and Wojo came in, it was your opportunity to show everyone that you were right. If a new coach came in and picked Dawson over Derrick (as you assumed he would) and the team improved, it would prove that you were right and everyone else was wrong. Instead, a second coach in a row picked Derrick over Dawson, effectively ending the debate. Since you can't accept the possibility of being wrong, then it must mean that the coach "doesn't have it."
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And this is why cross sport analogies have their flaws. QB is more important to football than PG is to basketball. Professional is much different than college. Before Reid got his second elite QB in Mahomes he had an elite QB in McNabb for his entire prime and continually came up short. If you're convinced that all Wojo is, is a 2012 Reid that's fine, and while I'm far from convinced that he's 2019 Reid, I'm not ready to move on from him yet. I still think he can improve and reach new heights here at MU.
Not sure McNabb was an "elite QB".... 30+ TDs once in his entire career. 20+ TDs five times in his eleven year career. He was a good player, not an elite one.
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Not sure McNabb was an "elite QB".... 30+ TDs once in his entire career. 20+ TDs five times in his eleven year career. He was a good player, not an elite one.
I mean, now we're way of topic but I'd argue that 5 straight pro bowls is elite. Either way, we're both just looking at the same stats in different ways. It is both true that Reid + Mahomes only took 2 years, and that Reid took 20 years. IMO any further dive into stats and such would just further show the flaws in comparing NFL success to NCAA basketball success.
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I mean, now we're way of topic but I'd argue that 5 straight pro bowls is elite. Either way, we're both just looking at the same stats in different ways. It is both true that Reid + Mahomes only took 2 years, and that Reid took 20 years. IMO any further dive into stats and such would just further show the flaws in comparing NFL success to NCAA basketball success.
Agreed - I never meant to get this deep into the analogy.
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I don't think this is true. I can only think of 2 or 3 posters who have said that Wojo has been greater than his results actually show. Most that you label as "ProJo" are people who are optimistic that he can continue to improve and get us to where we want to go. This is fundamentally different from posters who have declared that Wojo is a terrible coach and needs to be fired. I've criticized the ProJos when they make ridiculous arguments just as much as I have the NoJos when they make ridiculous arguments. The difference is that there are a lot more NoJos.
Ners, I know you think repeating the mantra of "I knew 10 games in that Wojo didn't have it" makes you a basketball genius. All it actually shows is that your initial assessment of Wojo was completely based on how much playing time John Dawson got vs. Derrick Wilson. During Buzz' last year, you turned into a caricature of yourself and your entire identity on this site was centered around your assertion that Dawson was better than Derrick. When Buzz left and Wojo came in, it was your opportunity to show everyone that you were right. If a new coach came in and picked Dawson over Derrick (as you assumed he would) and the team improved, it would prove that you were right and everyone else was wrong. Instead, a second coach in a row picked Derrick over Dawson, effectively ending the debate. Since you can't accept the possibility of being wrong, then it must mean that the coach "doesn't have it."
Ners also said Dawson was better than Rowsey.
And he just actually used "hood" in his post because, you know, he gets jiggy with so much street cred.
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Well 21 Scoopers currently think we will be back on top in 5 years with Wojo trending us toward Blueblood.
When you have a posting history of finding ways to rationalize and justify a coach's performance for nearly 5 years straight, that pretty much makes you a ProJo. We all know the hardcore ones, Chicos aliases aside. There were about 15 of you guys. About 10 have jumped off.
As for binary, yes, I did think starting Derrick Wilson and playing him for 33 minutes a game with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino on the roster was a binary decision, just as it was for Buzz the year prior. As it relates to a coach, in my view it is a binary decision - he either has "it" or he's "just a guy." We have a "just a guy." But, he is a good man, clean cut, brings "good" kids into the program. We know MU under Wojo won't take risks on kids from the hood. The hypocrisy is rich.
Duane Wilson, coming off injury, played 29 MPG. Matt Carlino player 33 MPG. Play them both 40. No wonder they didn’t turn into Steve Nash and Dameon Lillard. Wojo not giving them max minutes ruined their MVP level NBA careers, just like it has for so many other should have been MU greats.
Define “hood.” Is Baltimore the “hood?” Detroit? Public schools of Chicago? Seriously wtf are you even talking about? I’d say you can’t honestly be this stupid, but over the past 10 days or so you have proven you most definitely are.
If you had it your way, there would be 0 people living in “the hood” because those “poor” people couldn’t have children. So I’m shocked you don’t support Wojo’s obvious recruiting strategy of only recruiting privileged, wealthy kids with kushy, protected lives.
Unbearable.
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I think we should have played Luke Wilson. I bet he could act “hood” if he had to
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I've criticized the ProJos when they make ridiculous arguments just as much as I have the NoJos when they make ridiculous arguments. The difference is that there are a lot more NoJos.
21 ProJos voted in the poll. 13 (or 17 if you count a joke response) NoJos. What do you base your “a lot more NoJos” assertion on?
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21 ProJos voted in the poll. 13 (or 17 if you count a joke response) NoJos. What do you base your “a lot more NoJos” assertion on?
If you really believe there were 21 serious votes for MU being a blue blood in 5 years then I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.
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I am certain there are people who would do better than Wojo has at MU. I am also certain that even those who are paid to decide who that person is have 0 way of knowing for sure. Wojo needs to be better down the stretch of seasons. I expect he will.
Most of them would not even consider coaching MU. The MU coaching position is attractive to young coaches, who see MU as a stepping stone to something bigger. This is true of most Big East schools.
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21 ProJos voted in the poll. 13 (or 17 if you count a joke response) NoJos. What do you base your “a lot more NoJos” assertion on?
The fact that I can read.
But you do bring up a good point. I'm only talking about vocal posters on this site. I'd imagine the vast majority of scoopdom falls in the middle. But among the vocal minorities, I see a lot more calls for Wojo to be fired than for Wojo to get a raise.
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Most of them would not even consider coaching MU. The MU coaching position is attractive to young coaches, who see MU as a stepping stone to something bigger. This is true of most Big East schools.
Very NoJo.
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I don't think it's a big deal per se. But you also don't see many coaches getting fired after 20 win seasons. And therein lies the problem this board has with Wojo. He's too good to fire, he's not good enough to really get anyone excited about him as a coach. Eventually, something will give, one way or the other.
Plenty fair TAMU. I hope with all my MU buckets heart and soul MU gets back to the 2011-2013 level, and in a perfect world, to 1967-1979 level. But after six years, it becomes less and less of a possibility in my mind.
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I don't think this is true. I can only think of 2 or 3 posters who have said that Wojo has been greater than his results actually show. Most that you label as "ProJo" are people who are optimistic that he can continue to improve and get us to where we want to go. This is fundamentally different from posters who have declared that Wojo is a terrible coach and needs to be fired. I've criticized the ProJos when they make ridiculous arguments just as much as I have the NoJos when they make ridiculous arguments. The difference is that there are a lot more NoJos.
Ners, I know you think repeating the mantra of "I knew 10 games in that Wojo didn't have it" makes you a basketball genius. All it actually shows is that your initial assessment of Wojo was completely based on how much playing time John Dawson got vs. Derrick Wilson. During Buzz' last year, you turned into a caricature of yourself and your entire identity on this site was centered around your assertion that Dawson was better than Derrick. When Buzz left and Wojo came in, it was your opportunity to show everyone that you were right. If a new coach came in and picked Dawson over Derrick (as you assumed he would) and the team improved, it would prove that you were right and everyone else was wrong. Instead, a second coach in a row picked Derrick over Dawson, effectively ending the debate. Since you can't accept the possibility of being wrong, then it must mean that the coach "doesn't have it."
Once again, you are wrong bud. Wojo's use of Deonte was proof positive he didn't have it. The results speak for themselves during Derrick Wilson's two years of playing 30+ minutes. Buzz's last year was a train wreck, and outlier from any other in his head coaching career..and have zero doubt that was a function of him being disgruntled.
Even if, in your opinion, Derrick was better than John Dawson, we all saw Derrick was a major liability and we were playing 4 on 5. Buzz didn't have Matt Carlino or Duane Wilson eligible and on the roster. Wojo did..and still played Derrick 33, leading us to a 4-14 record.
Year 2 was confirmation of Year 1. He tried to force Haanif into PG role, when Traci Carter was much more natural at PG. He was all over with JJJ. Carter and JJJ had steal rates among the best in colllege hoop that year, yet he didn't max their time. Lineup was easy that year: Carter, Cheatham, JJJ, Henry, Luke.
So, its a nice try to suggest my early call on Wojo was a simple byproduct of playing Derrick Wilson over John Dawson - but there were plenty of other red flags. Per usual, those of you with the kind, empathetic, compassionate, patient approach have great intentions - yet simply don't acknowledge the reality, or understand actual cause/effect.
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Duane Wilson, coming off injury, played 29 MPG. Matt Carlino player 33 MPG. Play them both 40. No wonder they didn’t turn into Steve Nash and Dameon Lillard. Wojo not giving them max minutes ruined their MVP level NBA careers, just like it has for so many other should have been MU greats.
Define “hood.” Is Baltimore the “hood?” Detroit? Public schools of Chicago? Seriously wtf are you even talking about? I’d say you can’t honestly be this stupid, but over the past 10 days or so you have proven you most definitely are.
If you had it your way, there would be 0 people living in “the hood” because those “poor” people couldn’t have children. So I’m shocked you don’t support Wojo’s obvious recruiting strategy of only recruiting privileged, wealthy kids with kushy, protected lives.
Unbearable.
Sounds a lot like your affluent, suburban, private school upbringing. No wonder you love Wojo so much. He recruits kids that you feel comfortable around.
If you don't think there is a difference in the kind of kids Wojo has brought in, versus Buzz, you are once again in denial of reality. What's funny is that those of you who are so "woke" frequently cite the quality of kids Wojo's brought in as a major feather in his cap. The hypocrisy never stops with you guys. It's like you can't make this crap up. Your kind was outraged over people in Missouri at Lake of Ozarks not social distancing, the Wisconsin Supreme Court overturning the stay at home order, condemning those who went to bars, but all of a sudden it doesn't matter at all, when thousands pack together to protest.
Facepalm.
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Sounds a lot like your affluent, suburban, private school upbringing. No wonder you love Wojo so much. He recruits kids that you feel comfortable around.
If you don't think there is a difference in the kind of kids Wojo has brought in, versus Buzz, you are once again in denial of reality. What's funny is that those of you who are so "woke" frequently cite the quality of kids Wojo's brought in as a major feather in his cap. The hypocrisy never stops with you guys. It's like you can't make this crap up. Your kind was outraged over people in Missouri at Lake of Ozarks not social distancing, the Wisconsin Supreme Court overturning the stay at home order, condemning those who went to bars, but all of a sudden it doesn't matter at all, when thousands pack together to protest.
Facepalm.
In support of your point, MU did not offer Deontay Long. The only DI program who did offer Long was Grambling and even they made him sit out the first year.
So I find it kind of ironic that MU basketball and others are espousing how much they care about social justice, yet when given the ideal type of redemptive Opportunity with a kid like Long, they all chose to pass.
https://usatodayhss.com/2019/deontay-long-preferred-walk-on-grambling-state
https://hbcugameday.com/2019/06/30/grambling-adds-three-star-recruit-looking-for-a-fresh-start/
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Sounds a lot like your affluent, suburban, private school upbringing. No wonder you love Wojo so much. He recruits kids that you feel comfortable around.
If you don't think there is a difference in the kind of kids Wojo has brought in, versus Buzz, you are once again in denial of reality. What's funny is that those of you who are so "woke" frequently cite the quality of kids Wojo's brought in as a major feather in his cap. The hypocrisy never stops with you guys. It's like you can't make this crap up. Your kind was outraged over people in Missouri at Lake of Ozarks not social distancing, the Wisconsin Supreme Court overturning the stay at home order, condemning those who went to bars, but all of a sudden it doesn't matter at all, when thousands pack together to protest.
Facepalm.
AKA I'll throw out a random, clearly false statement, and then when called out for it I'll just turn to political BS.
Well done. You continue to be as dumb as you've been posting for the last couple weeks. That is HARD to keep up.