Las Vegas Shooting

[GGGG]

well if semi-automatic guns were illegal here like they are in australia, you would probably see more of this here...by the bad guys

I doubt it.  Once the guns are no longer sold or distributed here, it would be much more difficult for bad guys to get these guns.  Yeah it would take some time to get the ones on the streets off, but once that is accomplished, it is hard to see how bad guys could get their hands on these with regularity. 

[rocket surgeon]

I doubt it.  Once the guns are no longer sold or distributed here, it would be much more difficult for bad guys to get these guns.  Yeah it would take some time to get the ones on the streets off, but once that is accomplished, it is hard to see how bad guys could get their hands on these with regularity.

  first off, i was talking about 3-d printed guns.  secondly, are you serious that if these guns became illegal, no longer sold or distributed here, it would be hard to get them?  just like cocaine, pot, meth, rocket(no pun) launchers, hand grenades...oh yeah and automatic guns?  that's what they do man-they get illegal chit by the truck load and sell it...for A LOT$$ 

[GGGG]

  first off, i was talking about 3-d printed guns.  secondly, are you serious that if these guns became illegal, no longer sold or distributed here, it would be hard to get them?  just like cocaine, pot, meth, rocket(no pun) launchers, hand grenades...oh yeah and automatic guns?  that's what they do man-they get illegal chit by the truck load and sell it...for A LOT$$ 

Cocaine, pot, meth, etc. would be a lot easier to get if it were legal.

[naginiF]

FWIW, I am yes on all as well.

I doubt you’re going to get Chicos to make any meaningful suggestions, because he probably doesn’t even believe there is a problem. He just likes to criticize others’ suggestions, without making any of his own.

I'm actually not trying to get meaningful suggestions - Judging from some peoples posts they appear to either believe we don't have a gun problem OR the problem isn't big enough to tackle.  I'm trying to understand if that is actually the belief, it is really a need to criticize others, there is a need to defend the extreme position to prevent any perceived "win from the left", or i've misinterpreted a whole bunch of posts.

[buckchuckler]

Cocaine, pot, meth, etc. would be a lot easier to get if it were legal.

But being illegal doesn't make them hard to get. 

[GooooMarquette]

I'm actually not trying to get meaningful suggestions - Judging from some peoples posts they appear to either believe we don't have a gun problem OR the problem isn't big enough to tackle.  I'm trying to understand if that is actually the belief, it is really a need to criticize others, there is a need to defend the extreme position to prevent any perceived "win from the left", or i've misinterpreted a whole bunch of posts.

Fair enough.  It just boggles my mind when some people actually talk as though there isn’t a serious problem.

[GGGG]

But being illegal doesn't make them hard to get. 

It certainly makes it harder. 

[Lennys Tap]

It certainly makes it harder.

It will make it impossible for the law abiding citizen and inconvenient for the bad guys.

[GGGG]

It will make it impossible for the law abiding citizen and inconvenient for the bad guys.

The law abiding citizen doesn't need assault rifles.  If they are truly law abiding, they can have handguns, shotguns, etc. 

[Tugg Speedman]

The most popular guns for committing crimes in Chicago based on weapons confiscated by police...not a single mention of "homemade" guns within a pretty detailed article.  Data is from 2014 so maybe Heisy's
 "data" is more recent.
https://www.thetrace.org/2016/01/chicago-crime-guns-chart/

Try and read what you link.  Becuase you missed this section which read like I plagiarized it for my comments on this site

Your apology is accepted and I know you will be more careful and actually read what you link in the future.

 -------------------------

The “Saturday Night Special” is still kicking

In the 1980s, a group of gun manufacturers set up shop outside Los Angeles, California. These companies, which included Raven Arms and Lorcin Engineering, were collectively dubbed the “Ring of Fire,” as they became notorious for producing simple, cheap handguns commonly known as “Saturday Night Specials.” Even though these junk guns had a tendency to misfire or malfunction, production by Ring of Fire companies grew exponentially, and by 1990, they churned out one-third of all handguns in the U.S. A trace report by the ATF in the 1990s found that Saturday Night Specials like the ones produced by Raven and Lorcin were 3.4 times more likely to be used in crimes than other guns.

Though both companies have been out of business for decades, the appearance of the Lorcin .380 and Raven .25 among Chicago’s most seized guns speaks to the enduring appeal of the Saturday Night Special. Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab, says that many black market gun customers are looking for a weapon that even the least skilled person can operate. These firearms fit the bill.

Older guns are also easier to buy for cheap on the black market, adding to their attraction, especially for younger gang members. Cook’s research has shown that crime guns purchased by gang members tend to be an average of 12.6 years old.

Guns are durable goods, and once a lax law or untoward seller allows a gun to enter the black market, it will often stay in circulation for decades. “A gun manufactured in 1984 will kill you just as dead as a new one,” says Pollack.

[StillAWarrior]

And there is the inevitable doubling-down. Predictable. And hilarious. I'll let others more engaged in the discussion than I respond.

Truly amazing.

[Pakuni]

It will make it impossible for the law abiding citizen and inconvenient for the bad guys.

You could make the same argument for legalizing a grenade launchers, heroin and child porn, I guess. But we've wisely decided as a society that we'd be better without them legal. Even though the bad guys still can get them (despite the inconvenience).

That reminds me of an earlier post in which you cited banning "40 mph, cigarettes, trans fat, alcohol, football, motorcycles, bicycles" as something that would save lives, and yet we allow them,
For starters, it's a bad analogy because most of these things harm no one but the user. Pretty sure I won't die an early death because someone else eats too much trans fat, plays football and drives a motorcycle.
An AR-15 with an extended clip, on the other hand, exists to hurt people other than the user.
So, big difference.

Beyond that, all the things you cite provide some sort of benefit that we as a society have determined outweigh the harm. Speedy interstate travel is beneficial. Bicycles are beneficial. Even alcohol and tobacco have benefits.
What benefit does an AR-15 with an extended clip in the hands of a civilian provide?

[rocket surgeon]

I'm actually not trying to get meaningful suggestions - Judging from some peoples posts they appear to either believe we don't have a gun problem OR the problem isn't big enough to tackle.  I'm trying to understand if that is actually the belief, it is really a need to criticize others, there is a need to defend the extreme position to prevent any perceived "win from the left", or i've misinterpreted a whole bunch of posts.

we don't have a gun problem...with law abiding citizens.  we have a problem with bad people. 

     please define "extreme".  or is it FAR right?  or is gun nut a better term?

[HansMoleman]

You could make the same argument for legalizing a grenade launchers, heroin and child porn, I guess. But we've wisely decided as a society that we'd be better without them legal. Even though the bad guys still can get them (despite the inconvenience).

That reminds me of an earlier post in which you cited banning "40 mph, cigarettes, trans fat, alcohol, football, motorcycles, bicycles" as something that would save lives, and yet we allow them,
For starters, it's a bad analogy because most of these things harm no one but the user. Pretty sure I won't die an early death because someone else eats too much trans fat, plays football and drives a motorcycle.
An AR-15 with an extended clip, on the other hand, exists to hurt people other than the user.
So, big difference.

Beyond that, all the things you cite provide some sort of benefit that we as a society have determined outweigh the harm. Speedy interstate travel is beneficial. Bicycles are beneficial. Even alcohol and tobacco have benefits.
What benefit does an AR-15 with an extended clip in the hands of a civilian provide?

Many would say a modern sporting rifle with a 30-round magazine exists for hunting, competition, home defense and just plain old target shooting.  I guess those reasons could be considered "benefits" to the civilian owner.  Personally, I've spent a few afternoons picking off clay targets at 100 yds at the old quarry with an AR-15, and it certainly was enjoyable.  Am I willing to forgo that type of activity for the good of society?  Maybe..  Should I be required to?  Tough questions indeed.

[GGGG]

we don't have a gun problem...with law abiding citizens.  we have a problem with bad people. 

     please define "extreme".  or is it FAR right?  or is gun nut a better term?

Bad people can do worse things with guns. Unless you think that America has a higher percentage of bad people than other countries.

This entire topic has just devolved into the same illogical pro-gun talking points that it always does.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Try and read what you link.  Becuase you missed this section which read like I plagiarized it for my comments on this site

Your apology is accepted and I know you will be more careful and actually read what you link in the future.

 -------------------------

The “Saturday Night Special” is still kicking

In the 1980s, a group of gun manufacturers set up shop outside Los Angeles, California. These companies, which included Raven Arms and Lorcin Engineering, were collectively dubbed the “Ring of Fire,” as they became notorious for producing simple, cheap handguns commonly known as “Saturday Night Specials.” Even though these junk guns had a tendency to misfire or malfunction, production by Ring of Fire companies grew exponentially, and by 1990, they churned out one-third of all handguns in the U.S. A trace report by the ATF in the 1990s found that Saturday Night Specials like the ones produced by Raven and Lorcin were 3.4 times more likely to be used in crimes than other guns.

Though both companies have been out of business for decades, the appearance of the Lorcin .380 and Raven .25 among Chicago’s most seized guns speaks to the enduring appeal of the Saturday Night Special. Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab, says that many black market gun customers are looking for a weapon that even the least skilled person can operate. These firearms fit the bill.

Older guns are also easier to buy for cheap on the black market, adding to their attraction, especially for younger gang members. Cook’s research has shown that crime guns purchased by gang members tend to be an average of 12.6 years old.

Guns are durable goods, and once a lax law or untoward seller allows a gun to enter the black market, it will often stay in circulation for decades. “A gun manufactured in 1984 will kill you just as dead as a new one,” says Pollack.

I'm going to type this really slowly so you can try to understand it.

I posted the link to refute your homemade gun nonsense, or at least try to have you back up your outlandish claims with actual facts.  Instead you quote an article that talks about something I never mentioned.  Good Job!

I never mentioned the fact that older guns are still in use, that criminal types would probably favor cheaper weapons (no sh!t Sherlock) and in an earlier post I actually said I agree with you that there are too many guns in circulation to ever ban them. 

So yet again, like StillAWarrior pointed out, you completely miss the point and go all berserk on some other tangential topic.

So, I would love to see some actual statistics on your claims about homemade guns.  Thanks

[MU82]

Meanwhile, last month Charlotte cops seemingly shot a guy who had his hands up and was trying to comply with orders. For weeks, they claimed otherwise, but the video doesn't look good for the cops. Not only might they have shot an innocent man but they might have been trying to cover it up.

Looks worse for the victim, of course, cuz he's dead.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article177439796.html?#emlnl=Afternoon_Newsletter&id=bWlrZW5hZGVsQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ=

The victim had a gun (naturally - doesn't everybody? - they're so much fun!) but told the 9-1-1 dispatcher it wasn't loaded. It's hard to blame the cops for not believing the man, who very well might have had mental issues. But again ...

[forgetful]

  this is too easy-

  http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/design/police-seize-another-batch-of-3d-printed-guns-as-authorities-deal-with-danger-of-downloadable-firearms/news-story/c2fa2711ebf7b761e3e2f0802a80d1b2

No, not too easy.  Weapons are not being produced on large scale 3D printers anywhere in the world, including Australia.  The guns produced in this shop are more dangerous for the shooter than the person being shot at.

Although 3D designs for guns exist for cheap 3D printers.  They are largely inoperable and typically explode or fail after a single attempted fire.  The materials are not not compatible with the forces present in a firearm. 

3D printable guns of decent quality can be produced, but are practically useless.  Technology right now would allow maybe 1-2 guns to be made a day, with labor and material costs of $100-200 (not $10).  The labor and training to manufacture them is limited and requires extensive training and skill (graduate level educations).  More importantly, the technology to do so is rare.  An instrument costs upwards of $1M, and has extremely limited availability.  It would be trivial to restrict the sale of such equipment to research Universities and established production companies (essentially it already is).

Even the 3D printable guns would be of inferior quality than current weapons.  A fully automatic produced with this technology would likely fail very quickly.

[#UnleashSean]

Haven't read many comments but....

Comparisons to Australia str irrelevant. The aussies have 1/3 of 1% of the guns the US has in very conservative surveys. Making them outright illegal won't change anything. The supply is to large for the insane price of an illegal gun in Australia to work here.

Yes there is a very large problem in our country with this. We should focus on finding an actual solution instead of having the same argument over and over. And no an outright ban of guns will not work. See Norway.

[GooooMarquette]

we don't have a gun problem...with law abiding citizens.  we have a problem with bad people. 

     please define "extreme".  or is it FAR right?  or is gun nut a better term?

The problem is that everyone is considered a law abiding citizen...until they aren’t.  And by the time they aren’t, it’s often too late.  See Las Vegas shooter.

[Pakuni]

And no an outright ban of guns will not work. See Norway.

First, Norway doesn't ban guns.
Second, despite the fact not one person here is arguing for a  ban on guns, you guys keep arguing against a ban on guns. Can't t help the straw man or do you literally have no other talking points?

[naginiF]

Fair enough.  It just boggles my mind when some people actually talk as though there isn’t a serious problem.

I'm with ya, but that seems to be the point of view at least 4 here - some vehemently.

[naginiF]

we don't have a gun problem...with law abiding citizens.  we have a problem with bad people. 

     please define "extreme".  or is it FAR right?  or is gun nut a better term?

"extreme" is believing that we do not have a gun violence problem in the U.S..  I don't care how FAR (why is this capitalized?) right you are or how much of a "gun nut" (nothing close to that term came from me) you are, if you don't think we have a gun violence issue you hold an "extreme" position. 

I posted some 'yes/no' questions earlier trying to figure out if certain Scoopers believed we have a gun violence issue.  I take it you don't think we have a gun violence issue or, if we do, it isn't associated with the availability/volume of guns in the US.

[Jockey]

Many would say a modern sporting rifle with a 30-round magazine exists for hunting, competition, home defense and just plain old target shooting.

A 30-round clip for hunting? Are those big, bad deer packing iron now? Shooting back at you?

To state the obvious, by "you" I mean hunters, not you personally. But some people here will twist it anyways into some sort of personal attack.

[Jockey]

I'm with ya, but that seems to be the point of view at least 4 here - some vehemently.

Hard to figure who they could be.