South Carolina Brawl Game Anniversary

[dgies9156]

   i believe you're right dg, thanks for talking me off the ledge.  i will never forget that game, watching at fv grunts my freshman year and thought this was my time to party down wisco ave till sunrise...damn, well i made up for the party until sunrise (probably too)many times after that.  i do like your version better than mine.  goose and i talk about some of the players we COULD have had and i just can't believe little ole MU was on the cusp of potentially making some real noise for a while...scooter and rodney, alfredrick, et.al

Brother Rocket:

Everybody makes mistakes, but it takes a Quentin Quade (MU's Head of Administration to whom the program reported in 1977) to do a screw-up that lasts 40 years.

I admire Hank Raymonds and his commitment to our program. But I fail to see what he had in 1977 that he didn't have in 1964, when he was passed over for Coach Al. It was a mistake of good intentions that went horribly wrong in 1978.

After the Miami of Frickin Ohio fiasco, we should have honored Hank and either moved him into an administrative position or retired him with a hefty payout. Let him be radio and television commentator. Or be an ambassador to all that is good at Marquette. Our name still meant something and we had cover in more ways than one. With the right person, we could have hit refresh and by 1981, been back in the mix for greatness.

Crap happens. But when we lay a landfill sized mound of it, don't blame the refs!!!!

[Dr. Blackheart]

MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history, it was in the decision to remain independent and not join the Big East (and subsequently ESPN) on May 31, 1979.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history, it was in the decision to remain independent and not join the Big East (and subsequently ESPN) on May 31, 1979.

Were they invited?  If so, yeah that was a problem.

Hiring Majerus was an issue as well.

[Galway Eagle]

Brother Rocket:

Everybody makes mistakes, but it takes a Quentin Quade (MU's Head of Administration to whom the program reported in 1977) to do a screw-up that lasts 40 years.

I admire Hank Raymonds and his commitment to our program. But I fail to see what he had in 1977 that he didn't have in 1964, when he was passed over for Coach Al. It was a mistake of good intentions that went horribly wrong in 1978.

After the Miami of Frickin Ohio fiasco, we should have honored Hank and either moved him into an administrative position or retired him with a hefty payout. Let him be radio and television commentator. Or be an ambassador to all that is good at Marquette. Our name still meant something and we had cover in more ways than one. With the right person, we could have hit refresh and by 1981, been back in the mix for greatness.

Crap happens. But when we lay a landfill sized mound of it, don't blame the refs!!!!

I'm on board with saying it was a big mistake especially when two years later we went to three crappy tournament seeds and missed one altogether but maybe chill on the doom and gloom of "40yrs" as if in the least 94, 03, 11, 12, & 13 never happened

let alone 93, 96, 97, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 17, 19, (arguably 20), & 22

MU just since O'Neil has a body of work a crap ton of college basketball programs would be jealous of.

MU's biggest mistake was not hiring the 2nd winningest coach in Marquette history

Bill Chandler?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Were they invited?  If so, yeah that was a problem.

Hiring Majerus was an issue as well.

Marquette BB had the #1 cachet at that time of all BB independents.  Purportedly, MU was asked early on and the admin shut it down as they preferred being Independent.  Not having the foresight to see the importance of a conference or seeing a new media emerging were the eff ups that left the university contemplating dropping down to D2 about a decade later. 

[Goose]

IMO the hiring of Hank was decision that changed the trajectory of the program. While I would have liked Denny Crum, that would have been a tough call to make. QQ was the wrong guy to be in charge of the transition.

I agree with Dr. B that joining the BE was a major blunder. Once MU decided to join a conference they were chasing. Good news, pretty soon folks will be chasing MU basketball again.

As for ‘78, the program had already lost it’s luster before the Miami game. I knew it was on the decline when they were ranked #1 and lost to Loyola in February. That is how fast the MU mystique was gone.

[Gato78]

MU still had a functioning Athletic Board made up of a few alums and profs at that timeframe. Though the board’s authority waned as time went on, it was involved in the decision to join a conference and the Hank and Rick hires. I knew some on that board—friends of my father. All good people with not a clue about big time athletics.

[Lennys Tap]

So I guess blaming the refs is a long Marquette tradition, descending from Al himself.

Actually, though Al got more than his share of technical, he NEVER blamed the refs after games. During the game, yes (hence the Ts), but never after.

[BCHoopster]

I am firm believer that the issue at MU demise was the recruitment of Rodney McCray or Mark Aquirre, Hank did not want to take Skip Dillard as it was a package deal but he thought he had MaCray.  DePaul getting Aquirre got them Terry Cummings.  Oh well, spillled milk.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Actually, though Al got more than his share of technical, he NEVER blamed the refs after games. During the game, yes (hence the Ts), but never after.

Doesn’t jibe with this.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63991.msg1499875#msg1499875

[Goose]

BC

You are correct and it all is related to the MU/Al mystique. Al had Aquirre locked up and his retirement changed that outcome. No one was going to force Al into a package deal and Hank did not have Al’s recruiting chops. Been discussed many times on here, but if Al would have stayed, his run would have been unreal with the guys who wanted to play at MU. A true who’s who of Ncaa and pro studs.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Skip Dillard was never getting into MU. Academically or otherwise.

https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1987/09/11/Former-DePaul-basketball-star-Norman-Skip-Dillard-Thursday-was/7504558331200/

[79Warrior]

MU still had a functioning Athletic Board made up of a few alums and profs at that timeframe. Though the board’s authority waned as time went on, it was involved in the decision to join a conference and the Hank and Rick hires. I knew some on that board—friends of my father. All good people with not a clue about big time athletics.

Not sure that is true. I was one the board and the BE did not come up in any discussion when I was on in late 70's.

[Uncle Rico]

Skip Dillard was never getting into MU. Academically or otherwise.

https://www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1987/09/11/Former-DePaul-basketball-star-Norman-Skip-Dillard-Thursday-was/7504558331200/

Imagine how bad Marquette’s endowment would be had he been allowed on campus

[4everwarriors]

Or da kampus krime, aina?

[Gato78]

Not sure that is true. I was one the board and the BE did not come up in any discussion when I was on in late 70's.

My understanding is that there was never an invite and the discussion among the powers was there was no need to join any conference. Was the balance of my statement accurate?

[Daniel]

That was a fun read.  Thanks for posting!

[Herman Cain]

 

Brother Rocket:

Not sure I agree. We were playing Miami of Frickin Ohio. There was no excuse for even allowing them into that game. Not then. Not now. NOT EVER!!!

The referees were bad, I agree. But the reason we lost was a loss of composure on our part, which reflects poor coaching. We should have looked outside the family for Al's replacement. We could have had about anyone not named Bob Knight or Dean Smith. Instead, we went with the Phil Bengston of Marquette athletics and we lost our composure when it mattered.

Sadly, we beat ourselves that day. Kirby Smart said it best yesterday after his Bulldogs took out TCU: "There's not a sense of entitlement here." By 1978, there was a sense among many of us that we were entitled -- that the success we had enjoyed for more than a decade was permanent.

We paid the price for that game and the ensuing breakdowns for decades. Hopefully, with Shaka, those horribly sad years are over.

I'll blame the refs for Ohio State in 1971. But don't blame them for our loss of composure.

dgies9156:
I was at Market Square that fateful day when it became clear our legacy was squandered .

[Dickthedribbler]

My understanding is that there was never an invite and the discussion among the powers was there was no need to join any conference. Was the balance of my statement accurate?

My recollection is that not only was there no invite from the BE circa 1979, but that there was no real discussion àbout MU joining.

You have to go back in time to remember the mindset. Conferences were still very regional creatures. The idea of schools in Milwaukee and Chicago aligning with a rag tag group of basically New England  schools was a foreign concept. And in 1979, the likes of Georgetown, Seton Hall, etc were only viewed as modestly successful basketball programs.

And, from the Marquette vantage point, we were "  the Kings of the Hill" at that time. Combine some arrogance with a lack of foresight and I think even if invited, MU would have declined. Remember, the " Great Independents" ( Marquette, DePaul, Dayton and Notre Dame) was the place to be in the late 1970s. DePaul had the Super station WGN. MU had the glory of the 60s and70s. Notre Dame was Notre Dame. None of us needed no stinken' Big East and some television experiment called, of all things, Entertainment and Sports Programing Network.

[Daniel]

:Pdgies9156:
I was at Market Square that fateful day when it became clear our legacy was squandered .

I was at that game as well.   Ugh.  Long ride back to Milwaukee.   Should have won big time.  Ugh

[Lennys Tap]

Doesn’t jibe with this.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63991.msg1499875#msg1499875

???

[dgies9156]

I'm on board with saying it was a big mistake especially when two years later we went to three crappy tournament seeds and missed one altogether but maybe chill on the doom and gloom of "40yrs" as if in the least 94, 03, 11, 12, & 13 never happened

let alone 93, 96, 97, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 17, 19, (arguably 20), & 22

MU just since O'Neil has a body of work a crap ton of college basketball programs would be jealous of.

Brother Galway:

You have to realize just how far we have fallen. For example, we are ranked 25th this week. Hats off to the team and to Coach Shaka for the accomplishment. They've worked hard and it's my view that we're building something that will be lasting. But, during Coach McGuire's tenure, a ranking of 20 (then the lowest ranked position) would have triggered major angst both locally and nationally.

During the 1970s, we were consistently a Top 10 and usually a Top 5 team. We were THAT good. We regularly had among the top recruiting classes in the nation. Had we not lost three of our very best players to the NBA at mostly odd times of the year -- Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill -- we probably would have multiple final four banners and at least one more NCAA Championship banner hanging in the FiServ. Had the NCAA been seeded then, we probably would have been a 1 seed every year from 1971 to 1978. At worst, we would have been a 2.

I get times have changed. Heck, North Carolina isn't in the Top 25 and Duke barely made it (one ahead of us). Talent has been more broadly distributed and more schools are good at college basketball. But we really had something special and the 40 years of crap comment was a function of comparing then to now. I'd argue the only years that were even close were 2003 and a few of the better Buzz years.

What I see as the difference between then and now is the fact that we've had a few very good teams, several good teams but nothing (with the exception of a few years under Buzz) that has been sustainable. We get really good and then fade quickly. With stability of coaching and Coach Shaka with us hopefully for the long haul, the sustainability that has eluded us may finally be gone!

[wadesworld]

Brother Galway:

You have to realize just how far we have fallen. For example, we are ranked 25th this week. Hats off to the team and to Coach Shaka for the accomplishment. They've worked hard and it's my view that we're building something that will be lasting. But, during Coach McGuire's tenure, a ranking of 20 (then the lowest ranked position) would have triggered major angst both locally and nationally.

During the 1970s, we were consistently a Top 10 and usually a Top 5 team. We were THAT good. We regularly had among the top recruiting classes in the nation. Had we not lost three of our very best players to the NBA at mostly odd times of the year -- Jim Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill -- we probably would have multiple final four banners and at least one more NCAA Championship banner hanging in the FiServ. Had the NCAA been seeded then, we probably would have been a 1 seed every year from 1971 to 1978. At worst, we would have been a 2.

I get times have changed. Heck, North Carolina isn't in the Top 25 and Duke barely made it (one ahead of us). Talent has been more broadly distributed and more schools are good at college basketball. But we really had something special and the 40 years of crap comment was a function of comparing then to now. I'd argue the only years that were even close were 2003 and a few of the better Buzz years.

What I see as the difference between then and now is the fact that we've had a few very good teams, several good teams but nothing (with the exception of a few years under Buzz) that has been sustainable. We get really good and then fade quickly. With stability of coaching and Coach Shaka with us hopefully for the long haul, the sustainability that has eluded us may finally be gone!

We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.

[Dickthedribbler]

We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.

And in 1977, the NCAA didn't even have a Selection Show for the Tournament. Marquette was playing its last regular season game against UM in Ann Arbor on a Sunday afternoon, and they got the telephone call at halftime.

[dgies9156]

We were (at least allegedly) the last team in the field in 1977.

I'd probably agree with you in 1977. Not too many teams with as many losses as we had ever made the tournament.

That doesn't diminish the point of exactly how good we were back then. And, whether we were first or last in 1977, we were a very, very good program. Compare even that team to recent history and the latter pales in comparison. At least until Coach Shaka brings us back!