Last 7 Games: Markus vs Sam vs Joey

[TallTitan34]

EDIT:  FORGOT CREIGHTON GAME

Last 7 Games
Markus: 47-133 (.353), 169 PTS, 227 MIN
Sam: 34-85 (.400), 96 PTS, 259 MIN
Joey: 20-51 (.392), 59 PTS, 200 MIN


Vs. Villanova
Markus: 8-19, 25 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 5-9, 13 PTS, 39 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 8 PTS, 39 MIN

Vs. Creighton
Markus: 11-21, 33 PTS, 39 MIN
Sam: 1-7, 3 PTS, 37 MIN
Joey: 2-5, 6 PTS, 28 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 2-11, 6 PTS, 28 MIN
Sam: 9-19, 25 PTS, 40 MIN
Joey: 2-12, 4 PTS, 23 MIN

Vs. Georgetown
Markus: 8-25, 28 PTS, 31 MIN
Sam: 2-11, 7 PTS, 35 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 16 PTS, 31 MIN

Vs. St. John’s
Markus: 8-15, 30 PTS, 30 MIN
Sam: 4-7, 10 PTS, 33 MIN
Joey: 2-5, 5 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 1-15, 21 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 7-15, 22 PTS, 38 MIN
Joey: 5-9, 12 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Murray State
Markus: 9-27, 26 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 6-17, 16 PTS, 37 MIN
Joey: 3-8, 8 PTS, 29 MIN


- Sam played 32 more minutes than Markus (4.6 more a game).
- Joey played 27 less minutes than Markus (3.9 less minutes a game).
- Joey scored 110 fewer points than Markus (15.7 less a game).
- Markus got 48 more shots off than Sam (6.8 more a game).
- Markus scored 73 more points than Sam (10.4 more a game).

[#UnleashSean]

In 34 less minutes Howard put up 34 more shots then Sam. As well as dominate the ball for 25 of the 30 seconds. Dude shot to much and it's a fact.

[TallTitan34]

In 34 less minutes Howard put up 34 more shots then Sam. As well as dominate the ball for 25 of the 30 seconds. Dude shot to much and it's a fact.

That’s 6 more shots a game. Not that crazy.

[#UnleashSean]

That’s 6 more shots a game. Not that crazy.

Honestly 6 more shots a game with that percentage of shooting is bad.


Then let's take a look at quality of shots. How many of Howard's were chucks with a hand in his face 30 feet from the hoop?

[Bad_Reporter]

Is there a metric for quality of shot?

How about an iso play, burn off 20 seconds and jack up a step back contested 3?

[TallTitan34]

But to transfer over 6 shots a game?  Especially when a PG is coming in next year. Just seems questionable at best.

[#UnleashSean]

But to transfer over 6 shots a game?  Especially when a PG is coming in next year. Just seems questionable at best.

I also question the transfer, theres lots of question marks. However The atmosphere around Howard and what Wojo let him get away with is probably the leading cause right now.

[TallTitan34]

I also question the transfer, theres lots of question marks. However The atmosphere around Howard and what Wojo let him get away with is probably the leading cause right now.

What about what Wojo let Joey get away with? He played 3 less minutes a game than Markus with significantly less to show for it.

[TallTitan34]

I also question the transfer, theres lots of question marks. However The atmosphere around Howard and what Wojo let him get away with is probably the leading cause right now.

Don’t get me wrong, I also preferred less Markus shooting at the end of some of those games. I just don’t think it was that outrageous to transfer over.

[mu_eyeballs]

What did the same stats show the 6 games before these 6? 

[#UnleashSean]

Don’t get me wrong, I also preferred less Markus shooting at the end of some of those games. I just don’t think it was that outrageous to transfer over.

I don't think any of us thought it was that outrageous to transfer over, which is why a lot of us were surprised. But the only 2 that matter thought something was wrong enough for the transer to happen.

[skianth16]

But to transfer over 6 shots a game?  Especially when a PG is coming in next year. Just seems questionable at best.

I think you're drawing way too simple of a conclusion here. There has to be more behind the scenes. Why else would so many guys with solid futures choose to leave MU and Wojo? Losing Cheatham mid-year and now losing the Hausers like this just doesn't smell right. There's something about Wojo these guys are sick of.

[NYWarrior]

Did Sam shoot better? No doubt. But I don’t think it’s that crazy that a second team All-American and National Player of the Year candidate gets 5.6 more shots a game do you?

Also, I believe Joey is lucky he got the minutes he did.

41% usage for Markus in the final 7 games. 41%. And he was injured. No adjustments made by Wojo

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58615.msg1123487#msg1123487

[TallTitan34]

I think you're drawing way too simple of a conclusion here. There has to be more behind the scenes. Why else would so many guys with solid futures choose to leave MU and Wojo? Losing Cheatham mid-year and now losing the Hausers like this just doesn't smell right. There's something about Wojo these guys are sick of.

Wasn’t Cheatham’s mom sick?

[TallTitan34]

41% usage for Markus in the final 7 games. 41%.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58615.msg1123487#msg1123487

So they are mad at Markus’ long leash but not Joey’s long leash? 

[Lennys Tap]

Last 6 Games
Markus: 36-112 (.321), 136 PTS, 188 MIN
Sam: 33-78 (.423), 93 PTS, 222 MIN
Joey: 18-46 (.391), 53 PTS, 172 MIN


Vs. Villanova
Markus: 8-19, 25 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 5-9, 13 PTS, 39 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 8 PTS, 39 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 2-11, 6 PTS, 28 MIN
Sam: 9-19, 25 PTS, 40 MIN
Joey: 2-12, 4 PTS, 23 MIN

Vs. Georgetown
Markus: 8-25, 28 PTS, 31 MIN
Sam: 2-11, 7 PTS, 35 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 16 PTS, 31 MIN

Vs. St. John’s
Markus: 8-15, 30 PTS, 30 MIN
Sam: 4-7, 10 PTS, 33 MIN
Joey: 2-5, 5 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 1-15, 21 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 7-15, 22 PTS, 38 MIN
Joey: 5-9, 12 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Murray State
Markus: 9-27, 26 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 6-17, 16 PTS, 37 MIN
Joey: 3-8, 8 PTS, 29 MIN


- Sam played 34 more minutes than Markus (5.6 more a game).
- Joey played 16 less minutes than Markus (2.6 less a game). 
- Joey scored 83 fewer points than Markus (13.8 less a game).
- Markus got 34 more shots off than Sam (5.6 more a game).
- Markus scored 43 more points than Sam (7.2 more a game).


Did Sam shoot better? No doubt. But I don’t think it’s that crazy that a second team All-American and National Player of the Year candidate gets 5.6 more shots a game do you?

Also, I believe Joey is lucky he got the minutes he did.

41% usage in the final 7 games for a guy shooting that badly kills a team. Period.

[NYWarrior]

So they are mad at Markus’ long leash but not Joey’s long leash?

Joey's usage in Big East games was 18.4  Long leash?

[TallTitan34]

Joey's usage in Big East games was 18.4  Long leash?

In those final six games he got 29 minutes a game with crapty D and several turnovers in big moments. Yes, a long leash.

Yes I get Markus was overused. But it’s not that crazy especially when Joey was getting more playing time than deserved.

[NYWarrior]

In those final six games he got 29 minutes a game with crapty D and several turnovers in big moments. Yes, a long leash.

Yes I get Markus was overused. But it’s not that crazy especially when Joey was getting more playing time than deserved.

If you're going to introduce turnovers "in big moments" into this conversation, pls don't consult Markus' late season film either.

And yes, 41% usage is that crazy.  36% for the season is crazy.  Henry Sugar shared that in-depth in this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111492010987409408 and this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376

[JakeBarnes]

In those final six games he got 29 minutes a game with crapty D and several turnovers in big moments. Yes, a long leash.

Yes I get Markus was overused. But it’s not that crazy especially when Joey was getting more playing time than deserved.

The turnovers were so bad against Creighton too. Like every 30 seconds

[skianth16]

Wasn’t Cheatham’s mom sick?

That could have been true. But I doubt it was the reason he left a few games into the season. If something was truly dire, and he needed to be home to be with family, I'd guess that would have been a very public message.

Wojo's transfer issues have bugged me the whole time he's been here. If we this was more isolated, I could buy into whatever reason a player gave. But with the trend we've had of losing quality guys, there seems to be something consistent going on behind closed doors. Even Froling alluded to that today on Twitter.

[TallTitan34]

Even Froling alluded to that today on Twitter.

Froling. The guy that left two programs after one year at each?  Ok. 

Not to mention his brother who left after one year at Creighton.

[LAZER]

That could have been true. But I doubt it was the reason he left a few games into the season. If something was truly dire, and he needed to be home to be with family, I'd guess that would have been a very public message.

Wojo's transfer issues have bugged me the whole time he's been here. If we this was more isolated, I could buy into whatever reason a player gave. But with the trend we've had of losing quality guys, there seems to be something consistent going on behind closed doors. Even Froling alluded to that today on Twitter.

You need to accept the reality of
transfers in NCAA basketball.

[TallTitan34]

If you're going to introduce turnovers "in big moments" into this conversation, pls don't consult Markus' late season film either.

And yes, 41% usage is that crazy.  36% for the season is crazy.  Henry Sugar shared that in-depth in this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111492010987409408 and this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376

I agree.  Markus had bad turnovers as well. That doesn’t change that Joey shouldn’t have been getting 29 minutes a game.

[skianth16]

Froling. The guy that left two programs after one year at each?  Ok.

Fair enough. Not the best character witness. But he does understand what goes on in the locker room at MU. And he ultimately made the same decision as the Hausers. And Cheatham. And Burton, Wally, Dawson, Sandy, Duane, and Traci.

Yeah, a lot of those guys are probably better suited for mid-major basketball, but there are plenty of role players needed on high major teams too. Wojo's track record on talent retention is not exactly glowing. Seems like something's going on.

[avid1010]

I agree.  Markus had bad turnovers as well. That doesn’t change that Joey shouldn’t have been getting 29 minutes a game.

If you didnt like what Joey did down the stretch then you really must have hated what Markus did.  By your logic...he should have been getting 20 min a game as well?

Im afraid in a year from now we will see what they can do with a good coach.  Similar to what we saw from Wes Mathews when Buzz came in.

[NYWarrior]

I agree.  Markus had bad turnovers as well. That doesn’t change that Joey shouldn’t have been getting 29 minutes a game.

With this roster, it made sense. He delivered a solid freshman ORtg with very little run for him (or anybody else) out of any offensive set. And he did well on the defensive glass, in particular, not to mention being a near-elite 3 point shooter.

As for his turnovers, the Creighton game was Joey's worst turnover rate for the season.  Looking at the last 7 games (where the team was 1-6) -- Joey's turnover rate was 22.7 heading into that final stretch. He ended the season with a TO rate of 21.3 & a final 5-game moving average of 16.46.

[TallTitan34]

If you didnt like what Joey did down the stretch then you really must have hated what Markus did.  By your logic...he should have been getting 20 min a game as well?

Honestly I didn’t really want either in at the end of a few of those games.

[jesmu84]

Fair enough. Not the best character witness. But he does understand what goes on in the locker room at MU. And he ultimately made the same decision as the Hausers. And Cheatham. And Burton, Wally, Dawson, Sandy, Duane, and Traci.

Yeah, a lot of those guys are probably better suited for mid-major basketball, but there are plenty of role players needed on high major teams too. Wojo's track record on talent retention is not exactly glowing. Seems like something's going on.

I'm not referring to the Hausers or any specific player when I posit this...

Is it possible wojo is absolutely Crystal clear (too brutally honest perhaps) on each player's role on the team/anticipated minutes/coach expectations/place on the totem pole and some of them don't like what they hear?

[hoops12]

Thanks for the updated calculations!

[skianth16]

I'm not referring to the Hausers or any specific player when I posit this...

Is it possible wojo is absolutely Crystal clear (too brutally honest perhaps) on each player's role on the team/anticipated minutes/coach expectations/place on the totem pole and some of them don't like what they hear?

At this point, anything is possible. But if that's the case, it seems like that would also hurt him on the recruiting trail. If he's brutally honest once they're here, and that message ends up being different than the sales pitch, that could definitely create issues.

[auburnmarquette]

In 34 less minutes Howard put up 34 more shots then Sam. As well as dominate the ball for 25 of the 30 seconds. Dude shot to much and it's a fact.

Markus assist rate was over 27%, top 3% of all players and almost twice what Sam or Joey had.

With no point guard on the team, Markus created shots for others by drawing extra defenders this giving teammates easier shots. The player who does that hits a lower percentage (seriously a whole book on this kind of stuff in basketball on paper).

If your theory was right, then Joey and Sam would have lit it up when the unselfish Joey Chartouney took over at point guard. The opposite happens.

If you don't take a shot it doesn't necessarily mean someone else gets a shot. Almost 1 in 5 times your team turns it over so players who have more trouble getting a shot off shoot higher percentages because they only take easier shots.

If Markus drew the defense and got the ball to an open three in the corner or Sam on the wing they had a good chance to hit. Likewise with the whole defense keyed on Howard's every move Sam or Joey could get a one on one backing someone down and they were very good at that

Howard's freshman year the defenses were not built around him and he came a couple of made three pointers from setting the all time 3 ot percentage. If teams were doubling Sam and Joey and leaving one player on an island against Markus he would have a great percentage and another half dozen 50 point games

I hate losing Sam, but you can't lose Markus. I don't think MU is top 10 without Sam, but still very good.

[skianth16]

You need to accept the reality of
transfers in NCAA basketball.

I get that it's a trend. And I don't expect MU to be immune. But starters leaving and guys leaving mid-season don't seem to be the norm. That's not something I see myself getting used to.

[TallTitan34]

Why did you conveniently leave out the Marquette vs. Creighton game? Did it not support your narrative? Fake news, right? By the way, that was one of the last six games (even though you included Villanova so it should've been out of the last seven games). In that game Creighton game, Sam was (1-7) from the field, and Markus was (11-21). Recalculate for accuracy![/size][/size][/size]

Crap I forgot that game. But if your numbers are right that actually helps my point.

Hold on will recalc.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Markus assist rate was over 27%, top 3% of all players and almost twice what Sam or Joey had.

With no point guard on the team, Markus created shots for others by drawing extra defenders this giving teammates easier shots. The player who does that hits a lower percentage (seriously a whole book on this kind of stuff in basketball on paper).

If your theory was right, then Joey and Sam would have lit it up when the unselfish Joey Chartouney took over at point guard. The opposite happens.

If you don't take a shot it doesn't necessarily mean someone else gets a shot. Almost 1 in 5 times your team turns it over so players who have more trouble getting a shot off shoot higher percentages because they only take easier shots.

If Markus drew the defense and got the ball to an open three in the corner or Sam on the wing they had a good chance to hit. Likewise with the whole defense keyed on Howard's every move Sam or Joey could get a one on one backing someone down and they were very good at that

Howard's freshman year the defenses were not built around him and he came a couple of made three pointers from setting the all time 3 ot percentage. If teams were doubling Sam and Joey and leaving one player on an island against Markus he would have a great percentage and another half dozen 50 point games

I hate losing Sam, but you can't lose Markus. I don't think MU is top 10 without Sam, but still very good.

Thank you Auburn. You put into words a point I have been trying to verbalize for a while.

[TallTitan34]

FIXED:  FORGOT CREIGHTON GAME

Last 7 Games
Markus: 47-133 (.353), 169 PTS, 227 MIN
Sam: 34-85 (.400), 96 PTS, 259 MIN
Joey: 20-51 (.392), 59 PTS, 200 MIN


Vs. Villanova
Markus: 8-19, 25 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 5-9, 13 PTS, 39 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 8 PTS, 39 MIN

Vs. Creighton
Markus: 11-21, 33 PTS, 39 MIN
Sam: 1-7, 3 PTS, 37 MIN
Joey: 2-5, 6 PTS, 28 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 2-11, 6 PTS, 28 MIN
Sam: 9-19, 25 PTS, 40 MIN
Joey: 2-12, 4 PTS, 23 MIN

Vs. Georgetown
Markus: 8-25, 28 PTS, 31 MIN
Sam: 2-11, 7 PTS, 35 MIN
Joey: 3-6, 16 PTS, 31 MIN

Vs. St. John’s
Markus: 8-15, 30 PTS, 30 MIN
Sam: 4-7, 10 PTS, 33 MIN
Joey: 2-5, 5 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Seton Hall
Markus: 1-15, 21 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 7-15, 22 PTS, 38 MIN
Joey: 5-9, 12 PTS, 25 MIN

Vs. Murray State
Markus: 9-27, 26 PTS, 33 MIN
Sam: 6-17, 16 PTS, 37 MIN
Joey: 3-8, 8 PTS, 29 MIN


- Sam played 32 more minutes than Markus (4.6 more a game).
- Joey played 27 less minutes than Markus (3.9 less minutes a game).
- Joey scored 110 fewer points than Markus (15.7 less a game).
- Markus got 48 more shots off than Sam (6.8 more a game).
- Markus scored 73 more points than Sam (10.4 more a game).

[JakeBarnes]

That could have been true. But I doubt it was the reason he left a few games into the season. If something was truly dire, and he needed to be home to be with family, I'd guess that would have been a very public message.

Wojo's transfer issues have bugged me the whole time he's been here. If we this was more isolated, I could buy into whatever reason a player gave. But with the trend we've had of losing quality guys, there seems to be something consistent going on behind closed doors. Even Froling alluded to that today on Twitter.

When my mom got stage 4 cancer I left my job quickly and quietly to help take care of her. Took another job with better location and hours where one knew either. You keep really personal sh*t quiet because it's no one else's damn business.

[skianth16]

When my mom got stage 4 cancer I left my job quickly and quietly to help take care of her. Took another job with better location and hours where one knew either. You keep really personal sh*t quiet because it's no one else's damn business.

The average Joe keeps personal news quiet, but it's a little different when we're talking about guys who are the face of the university and are interviewed very regularly. Their lives are pretty public.

This kind of situation usually comes with a ton of questions about what led up to the decision. Hence the hundreds or thousands of posts about this transfer today across several different sites.

[JakeBarnes]

The average Joe keeps personal news quiet, but it's a little different when we're talking about guys who are the face of the university and are interviewed very regularly. Their lives are pretty public.

This kind of situation usually comes with a ton of questions about what led up to the decision. Hence the hundreds or thousands of posts about this transfer today across several different sites.

Honestly, these are kids. It's still no ones damn business. Haanif is no different in that. You're impugning much more to this than should be put into this. Same with people who put Burton on Wojo--sometimes you just don't wanna be around the crap that reminds you of pain.

[skianth16]

Honestly, these are kids. It's still no ones damn business. Haanif is no different in that. You're impugning much more to this than should be put into this. Same with people who put Burton on Wojo--sometimes you just don't wanna be around the crap that reminds you of pain.

To me, I get why this can happen here and there. But it's happened too much under Wojo for me to ignore. That's what this all comes back to. When kids transfer, fans are curious to know the cause, so questions about motives come up. None of it (here at least) is malicious, it's just curiosity for something that is surprising.

[BallBoy]

To me, I get why this can happen here and there. But it's happened too much under Wojo for me to ignore. That's what this all comes back to. When kids transfer, fans are curious to know the cause, so questions about motives come up. None of it (here at least) is malicious, it's just curiosity for something that is surprising.

How is Wojo’s transfer rate any worse than Buzz or Crean?  I think you forget how many transfers those two had as well. If you recall the nicknames house creaned and buzzcut

[JakeBarnes]

To me, I get why this can happen here and there. But it's happened too much under Wojo for me to ignore. That's what this all comes back to. When kids transfer, fans are curious to know the cause, so questions about motives come up. None of it (here at least) is malicious, it's just curiosity for something that is surprising.

I think you should think less about Wojo with those two unless you think he is somehow bringing health issues to family members.

The others are Traci (Markus), Duane (Markus), Hausers (Markus?), Steve Taylor (playing time/level of play), Levin (girlfriend), Cohen (level of play), Froling (level of play). Outside of the Hausers most are Buzz holdovers. Froling was a bad move.

[Dr. Blackheart]

If you're going to introduce turnovers "in big moments" into this conversation, pls don't consult Markus' late season film either.

And yes, 41% usage is that crazy.  36% for the season is crazy.  Henry Sugar shared that in-depth in this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111492010987409408 and this thread https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376

In the book “Scorecasting”, the authors analyzed “The Jordan Rules”. When MJ’s usage early-on was as high as what Markus was at this past season, the Bulls couldn’t advance. Out with Collins and in with Jackson and a 29% usage rate for Jordan was deemed optimal.  And, the Bulls went on their run.

Similarly, “The Howard Rules” were deployed in the last quarter of this season against MU and MH’s usage went up? Therein, we have our answer.

[MU82]

In the book “Scorecasting”, the authors analyzed “The Jordan Rules”. When MJ’s usage early-on was as high as what Markus was at this past season, the Bulls couldn’t advance. Out with Collins and in with Jackson and a 29% usage rate for Jordan was deemed optimal.  And, the Bulls went on their run.

Similarly, “The Howard Rules” were deployed in the last quarter of this season against MU and MH’s usage went up? Therein, we have our answer.

Serious question: Did "usage" even exist back then as a stat that teams had at their disposal?

Also, I do agree that Phil Jackson was a better coach than Wojo is. I know ... that's shocking!

[Dr. Blackheart]

Serious question: Did "usage" even exist back then as a stat that teams had at their disposal?

Also, I do agree that Phil Jackson was a better coach than Wojo is. I know ... that's shocking!

Read the book.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It’s not just Howard’s shooting, its the  fact that he doesn’t give the call up unless all hope is lost for him to shoot. It leaves everybody waiting, more or less, and when they do get the ball they’re not really in a position to do anything with it. You cannot look at shots taken and think that tells the story.

I hate that these kids are transferring, but I’ll be honest...all season long I’ve wondered how anybody could enjoy playing with Howard. I don’t blame them for leaving.

[geps]

I think you're drawing way too simple of a conclusion here. There has to be more behind the scenes. Why else would so many guys with solid futures choose to leave MU and Wojo? Losing Cheatham mid-year and now losing the Hausers like this just doesn't smell right. There's something about Wojo these guys are sick of.

Noticed HC transferring again possibly to Nebraska FWIW.