I feel bad for Marquette84

[Marquette84]

Dude.  if people just don't get it, stop wasting your time trying to make them understand.  for me i'd rather focus on the future than our past (good things & bad).

I think this topic does affect our future.  If Buzz gets to a Sweet 16 or better over the next several seasons, he's going to be named as a potential candidate for some other job.  I would think the impact this has on future recruiting would be a valid point of discussion on a basketball message board.

What I am most disappointed about about is the response, ranging from unsubstantiated denial to insults and namecalling.

Bma came closest--but even he seems unable to admit that a class of #37, #75 and a couple bubbling under the top 100 isn't as good as a class with #5, #39, #42, and #56.  

If Wright's 2002 class was an A+, his 2006 class was a solid B.  My argument is that  "solid B is a decline from A+, and it took three more years to get another A+"   BMA's counter is that "solid B is still pretty good so your facts are wrong.  Besides, he did have another A+ class in 2009."

Sorry--my facts aren't wrong, and no matter how good you think the 2006 class was, it wasn't as good as 2002.  Why can't we agree on that?

And it DID take three more years to get another A+ class.  Why couldn't he land that class right away?

Here's where I thought the opening for further comment would be:  Why is it a young and unproven coach can land #5, #39, #42, and #56 his first year before anybody knows what he can do with them?  Why can't he seem to improve (or even equal) that level after he proves himself?  Why did it take four more seasons to build on it?

Now, let's turn to Buzz this year:  #53 Cadougan #84 Maymon and #90 Williams, two top 10 JUCOs.

Verbals for the future include:  Aaron Bowen, who is not presently in Scout's top 100 for the 2010 class and Monterale Clark who was ranked #109 out of HS--just under the top 100, and not yet proven as a top 10 Juco.  Solid recruits, yes, but not quite as good.  

Maybe they'll both surprise and move up in the rankings.  Maybe they'll both move down.

[Fullodds]

This is a really interesting discussion.

Have you considered that a great recruiting class makes it difficult to recruit another great recruiting class as spots are generally filled on the team.  For example, having a proven point guard hang around for 2-4 years might impact a coach's abillity to recruit another top flight point guard.  If a recruit (say, Shumpert), wants playing time ASAP, won't he consider schools with teams not having great point guards that he might have to play behind? 

Again, Shumpert is just used as a general example as he had other reasons for picking a school.  In general, I think that unless you are a Kansas, NC or Duke, it is hard to bring in A+ classes every year or even every other year.  If you are Kansas, NC or Duke, there is a good chance that the great player(s) in front of you will be leaving for the NBA and not staying around as long as say players from a school like Marquette.

[MR.HAYWARD]

IS MArquette84 Tom Crean?  Sure seems to sound that way, but then maybe not if it was tom Crean i would imagine his screen name would be Marquette77, because we all know those were his first memories of college basketball and fell in love with Al McGuire and the Warriors as his first memories of college basketball.  or was that the year before?


Excuses are for losers. 

[The Lens]

Repeat after me...Tom Crean's recruiting suffered because he burned bridges everywhere he went:

First we were in Chicago, then Michigan, then Minnesota, then NJ, then Texas.

The fact that after his first Chicago wave (Wade, ODB, Howard, Chapman) we only got McNeal & Mason is very telling.

[The Lens]

PS...SJS isn't Tom Crean.  Tom Crean is a Twitter Man.  SJS is Joanie.

Say hi to your Dad Joanie, hope he's surviving without his MU gig.

[Marquette84]

IS MArquette84 Tom Crean?  Sure seems to sound that way, but then maybe not if it was tom Crean i would imagine his screen name would be Marquette77, because we all know those were his first memories of college basketball and fell in love with Al McGuire and the Warriors as his first memories of college basketball.  or was that the year before?


Excuses are for losers. 

Just curious, Hayward, what is your obsession with Tom Crean.  Almost EVERYTHING you post is somehow related to Crean!

To say you're obsessed with the man is an understatement.

This thread is a pefect example.  I've tried to keep this as a basketball discussion in general.  To the extend that Tom Crean is a basketball coach, yes, the discussion involves him.  But it also includes many other coaches, including Mark Few, Sean Miller, Kevin O'Neill, Jay Wright, Skip Prosser, and Buzz Williams.  I can include Phil Marinelli, Bob McKilllop, Jim Larranga, Brad Brownell, Tony Bennett, and dozens upon dozens of other coaches who have not translated on-court success into immediate recruiting success. 


It seems to me that you have a serious issue trying to separate Tom Crean from your life.

I know several times you've been asked for specific examples as to why you have this obsession--your typical response is to run and hide, only to resurface in another thread, bringing up the same subject again.

For some reason, everything on this board seems to remind you of him. For some reason, we can't raise a single subject without you finding a way to bring Crean into this.  You need help.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Excuses are for losers. 

Repeat after me...Tom Crean's recruiting suffered because he burned bridges everywhere he went:

First we were in Chicago, then Michigan, then Minnesota, then NJ, then Texas.

The fact that after his first Chicago wave (Wade, ODB, Howard, Chapman) we only got McNeal & Mason is very telling.

Ya know, I think I've finally figured out why I disagree with both of you almost all of the time.

You guys just speak in such absolute certainties that I can't possibly agree with you.

Hayward: No excuses? Then Buzz has no excuse for not getting to the sweet 16, right? (even though DJ being hurt was a big factor). There are circumstances at every program for every coach.

DKC: You might actually be right with some of this "burned bridge" stuff (seriously)... but if Crean is successful at IU, what then? You'll probably say something about how he's just tricking everybody again... but could it be that he hasn't burned all of the bridges as you say?

It seems like everything is all or nothing with you guys. You guys hate Crean, therefore, MU84 must actually BE CREAN. C'mon.

The guy wasn't perfect, but you guys act like he's the Charles Manson of MU hoops, when in reality he's just kinda douchy and not the perfect basketball coach. 

[The Lens]

Ya know, I think I've finally figured out why I disagree with both of you almost all of the time.

You guys just speak in such absolute certainties that I can't possibly agree with you.

Hayward: No excuses? Then Buzz has no excuse for not getting to the sweet 16, right? (even though DJ being hurt was a big factor). There are circumstances at every program for every coach.

DKC: You might actually be right with some of this "burned bridge" stuff (seriously)... but if Crean is successful at IU, what then? You'll probably say something about how he's just tricking everybody again... but could it be that he hasn't burned all of the bridges as you say?

It seems like everything is all or nothing with you guys. You guys hate Crean, therefore, MU84 must actually BE CREAN. C'mon.

The guy wasn't perfect, but you guys act like he's the Charles Manson of MU hoops, when in reality he's just kinda douchy and not the perfect basketball coach. 

1) TC has a little more margin for error at a state school that is also one of the top 6 jobs in America.  Heck even Bo Ryan can p!ss off a WI HS hoops coach or too and not feel the ramifications.  At MU, you can't do that, from what I've heard, TC did.  That all being said, if laying money, I would go on the he'll be fired in 5-6 years side.

2) I don't think TC's an all bad coach.  I think he's one of the hardest working in the country, I think he game preps as well as anyone and I think he has an encyclopedic brain for plays, sets etc.  I just don't think he walks on water and I have a hard time with the fact so many people wanted to Canonize him while he was at MU.  There were obvious flaws that were just overlooked.  I like what he did for the program, I'm glad Cords hired him in '99.  I just think we can succeed without him. 

3) Agree with you on absolutes.  I'll try and tone down my rhetoric a bit.

4) This board is a better place with PRN back in the fold.

[MuMark]

Its very hard if not impossible for most schools to have great recruiting classes year after year. NC can do it. Duke, Kansas and a few others but thats about it.

Look at Georgetown. Went to the final 4 a few years ago. Landed a great class last year....this year....1 4 star recruit in Hollis Thompson and 2 under the radar guys that just commited in the last few days.

No rumors of JT3 going anywhere.

Bo Ryan is as entrenched as they come at UW.....no great recruiting class there at least not this year.

The key for me is not necessarily to have back to back top 10-20 classes year after year but to have a great class every 2-4 years and to get a least a player or 2 that can contribute and maybe eventually start in the other years.

The washout classes is what have hurt us. It has killed our depth.

Highly recruited players are willing to sit on the bench for a year or 2 at the elite schools but playing time becomes a factor when  deciding where to go among the 20-30 best programs outside of the top 7 or 8 schools.

So it doesn't matter if Buzz is pursued or not in the future, He will not be able to recruit a roster filled with only top 80 kids.


Fortunately for us he can still build a top 25 program without great classes every year.

[Marquette84]

Repeat after me...Tom Crean's recruiting suffered because he burned bridges everywhere he went:

First we were in Chicago, then Michigan, then Minnesota, then NJ, then Texas.

The fact that after his first Chicago wave (Wade, ODB, Howard, Chapman) we only got McNeal & Mason is very telling.

Yes, because we all know that consistency that O'Neill, Deane and Buzz have shown in landing Chicago area recruits.  Wisconsin recruits as well, for that matter.

When after Kevin O'Neill landed the first wave of Key, McIlvane and Logterman, Craig Aamont and Shannon Smith, how many Wisconsin players did he land?  How many illinois players?  

Lets see.  We had Shane Littles from GA, Zach McCall from MA, Dwyane Streeter and Amal McCaskill from the St. Louis area, Abel Joseph from Canada, Faisal Abraham from the Virgin Islands, Chris Crawford from Michigan, Aaron Hutchins from Ohio.

Doesn't look like a deep roster from Chicago.

Over his five years, Mike Deane landed two Chicago area recruits--Cordell Henry and Brian Wardle.  Where were the others?  Diggs from Dayton, Nnamka from Sweeden, Harris from metro St. Louis, Shaw from Canada, Mueller from Milwaukee, Clausen from Dixon IL, Cliff from Decatur, Minor from Texas, Miller from Kentucky, Bargen from Nebraska, Lovette from upstate Wisconsin, Polonowski form Michigan. Hester from Indianapolis.
 
BTW, is Buzz is already turning to Canada (McMorrow), Florida (Bowen), North Carolina (Johnson-Odom) and Pennsylvania (Roseboro).  

Of course to those obsessed with Crean, pointing out the obvious--that his recruiting style is no different than other recent MU coaches--well it must be that I'm married to the guy.  That's the ONLY reason one might point out the similar national recruiting strategies.

To the obsessed, pointing out that Crean is exactly like his predecessors and successor in that he pursued recruits from around the country is simply making excuses.

To the rest of us, MU's national reputation is an obvious point of strength that Crean, Deane, O'neill and now Buzz have all used in their recruiting.

[The Lens]

Comparing a legend like Crean to mere mortals like Deane-o and KO, shame on you SJS.  TC belongs compared with the legends...Roy, Coach K, Knight and of course, Stew.

Besides, I didn't point out he used the whole country I pointed out that he jumped from one region to another and rarely went back.  Two possible scenarios:  1) Burned bridges or 2) b/c of assistant coaches turnover and they worked their regions.  The latter would seem odd for a man so praised for his recruiting acumen.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Repeat after me...Tom Crean's recruiting suffered because he burned bridges everywhere he went:

First we were in Chicago, then Michigan, then Minnesota, then NJ, then Texas.

The fact that after his first Chicago wave (Wade, ODB, Howard, Chapman) we only got McNeal & Mason is very telling.

bingo+100000  the unsufferable ass wore out his welcome...notice this years recruits alabama and indiana

[MR.HAYWARD]

Marqueete 84 this argument...i will call it an excuse is sooooo weak I have to laugh at your rational.  first of all as has been pointed out yet you refuse to address is all these great examples of yours are all mid major non BCS schools.  jay wright has been brought into the conversation yet he completely refutes you theory.  Again all your examples are mid major non BCS schools.  Mid majors dont land top 100 kids year after year, they might land a couple and Duh!! those typically carry those teams far but I gives no guarantee they will get more like being a BE does helps to do.

Tom Crean had way more on his side to help him sign good recruits that being a final 4 and the Big east.  nevertheless apart from hayward and arguably Mbakwe he signed one poor player after another.  Now you can come up with one lame hypothesis after another but they simply hold no water.  Crean had the Final Four, the Al, the BE, and on top of it all DWADe and signed one poor recruit after another.  It came down to his burning bridges with coaches at the HS and AAU level and his assistants leaving avery year after one year and the lack of continuity with recruits.  Your hypothesis holds no water your are comparing midmajor coaches with a high major prorgam, he has no excuses but he failed. 

LAstly, your Kevin Oneil argument is simply terrible, now it does fit in with the other coaches as i will Agree Mu circa 1992 was akin to a St. Joes today.  But to say that his recruiting fell off after his first class is a complete joke.  Were you paying attention?  his last two classes were extremely talented.  In fact the team in 1994 was possibly as good as any team in recent memory except for the Final 4 team.  You probably dont recall but that team was really good and earned a 4 seed and was playing as well as anyone in the country before having a cold shooting night against Arkansas.  highest MU seed since seeding started except for the 3 seed in 2003.  Those were Oneil recruits that led that team all signed in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th classes. 

the following year we were pretty good too Comference USA champs  and completely carried by kids in his 3rd and 4th classes, including a Pro in Crawford.  Yes his first class was good but all 4 classes were very good and one could always make the argumnet that his first class put up such big numbers do to the fact that they were instant starters due to a dearth of talent when they came in.  Guys like Hutchins, Crawford, etc. had to share time or bide their time becuase of experienced talent ahead of them.

 Oneill blew Creans doors off in the regards to recruiting.  I wonder how many berkowitzs, blacledges, lotts, kinsellas and Chrsitopherson's and on and on  Buzz will sign...just wondering...it must be cause of some hypothesis 

[The Lens]

LAstly, your Kevin Oneil argument is simply terrible, now it does fit in with the other coaches as i will Agree Mu circa 1992 was akin to a St. Joes today.  But to say that his recruiting fell off after his first class is a complete joke.  Were you paying attention?  his last two classes were extremely talented.  In fact the team in 1994 was possibly as good as any team in recent memory except for the Final 4 team.  You probably dont recall but that team was really good and earned a 4 seed and was playing as well as anyone in the country before having a cold shooting night against Arkansas.  highest MU seed since seeding started except for the 3 seed in 2003.  Those were Oneil recruits that led that team all signed in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th classes. 

Mr Hayward meant 1996, but his point is well taken.

Hayward, PRN, DKCL, 4Ever & EAT.  We stick together!

[Murffieus]

SJS/MU84 is mistaken when he says that the final 4 hurt/retarded recruiting. It isn't the final 4 which does the recruiting ----it's human being who do the recruiting-----so if we didn't recruit as well immediately after the final 4 it was due to human error-----Crean not knowing how to market that success so as to create an impression that he knew how to build a winner direct to the final 4----that he had the secret formula.

Instead what he did is he used D Wade too much. At the time MU84/SJS went round and round on this (MU84/SJS saying Crean should use Wade for all it's worth)----Murf saying not to mention Wade so much in recruitment -----but communicate to recruits that HE (Crean) was the guy who made it all happen-----and that he could make it happen again. Instead he continually used Wade in recruiting-----but Wade had graduated so how was he going to help new recruits and how was DW going to help MU get to another final 4?

This inappropriate DW recruiting appraoach  reached its peak at MM madness in October 2007 when DW came in with Schmpert in attendance------DW couldn't talk to Schmpert but kept winking at him------big mistake as Schmpert wasn't coming to MU to play for Wade-----but for Crean. Would have taken an idiot recruit to fall for that one----all style and no substance!

[Marquette84]

Marqueete 84 this argument...i will call it an excuse is sooooo weak I have to laugh at your rational.  first of all as has been pointed out yet you refuse to address is all these great examples of yours are all mid major non BCS schools. 

And what, pray tell, do you think that were we in 2002 and 2003 and 2004 when the classes you complain so much about were being recruited?

The announcement that we were joining the Big East did not occur until November 4 2003!

All of the 2003 class--the one you think was influenced by the attraction of playing in the Big East--were enrolled in school TWO MONTHS BEFORE the annoucment was made.

 

[4everwarriors]

Lens Baby,
"Hayward, PRN, DKCL, 4Ever & EAT.  We stick together!"



You sure about EAT? Otherwise we all be brothers.

[Lennys Tap]

Wade was the equivalent of the winning Powerball ticket for Crean. When do you suppose will be the next time MU will battle Illinois State for an unranked (consensus anyway) partial qualifier who turns out to be one of the best players of all time? Without Wade it's still likely that TC would no longer be at Marquette, but it would not be by his choice.

[Marquette84]

SJS/MU84 is mistaken when he says that the final 4 hurt/retarded recruiting. It isn't the final 4 which does the recruiting ----it's human being who do the recruiting-----so if we didn't recruit as well immediately after the final 4 it was due to human error-----Crean not knowing how to market that success so as to create an impression that he knew how to build a winner direct to the final 4----that he had the secret formula.

Instead what he did is he used D Wade too much. At the time MU84/SJS went round and round on this (MU84/SJS saying Crean should use Wade for all it's worth)----Murf saying not to mention Wade so much in recruitment -----but communicate to recruits that HE (Crean) was the guy who made it all happen-----and that he could make it happen again. Instead he continually used Wade in recruiting-----but Wade had graduated so how was he going to help new recruits and how was DW going to help MU get to another final 4?

This inappropriate DW recruiting appraoach  reached its peak at MM madness in October 2007 when DW came in with Schmpert in attendance------DW couldn't talk to Schmpert but kept winking at him------big mistake as Schmpert wasn't coming to MU to play for Wade-----but for Crean. Would have taken an idiot recruit to fall for that one----all style and no substance!

I don't like your insinuation that Nick Williams, Tyshawn Taylor, Erik Williams Joe Fulce and Chris Otule are idiots becuase they signed (or verballed) to MU.


BTW, does this same excuse hold for Majerus?  He never managed to land a player equal to Andre Miller or Keith Van Horn after getting to a final four.

I guess he didn't know how to market that succeess either.

[MR.HAYWARD]

dead on lenny  Mu84 wants to use some stupid hypothesis and then back it up with some mid major examples.  I have said fro years Crean owes 95% of his salary to Dwade.  If not for Dwade Crean is fired in year 5 having never reached an NCAA tourney.  His recruitng sucked in 7 of 9 years and he had all the resources anyone could ever ask for.  

truly great recruiters like Kevin Oneill sold a program that had nothing and signed 4 good classes in a row that produced as many NBA players in 4 years as Crean got in 9, Oneil did this with the old gym and the MCC!!  He could sell ice to an eskimo!!  

Buzz williams signed pros at CSU and then did the same at Texas A&M  texas A&M has been to 3 straight NCAA tourneys after being the laughing stock doormat of the BIG 12 for years...did it on Buzz's recruits.  buzz could sell wool sweaters on a 100 degree day in texas.  Buzz then signed the #1 class in the country deaspite no one even knowing who the hell he was and having on 4 of them never coached a game at the school he was bringing them to.  Great recruiters simply recruit great players.  
Now even after you have read the article on Clark and Mark Millers article about BOwen blowing up  you will still find some way to argue how this gclass will be worse, sign aother great recruit for 2010 and it will still be worse beacuse it was only 3 deep.

 

[MR.HAYWARD]

I don't like your insinuation that Nick Williams, Tyshawn Taylor, Erik Williams Joe Fulce and Chris Otule are idiots becuase they signed (or verballed) to MU.


BTW, does this same excuse hold for Majerus?  He never managed to land a player equal to Andre Miller or Keith Van Horn after getting to a final four.

I guess he didn't know how to market that succeess either.

I really think MU84 is truly dense.  Here he throws out another mid major non BCS school.  Maybe not mid major but not BCS and no where near the history of MU or in the BE. 

MU your retarded hypothesis is all wrong...Utah went to the Final 4 for the first time since Brigham Young played becuase they had two great players...to then expect a cinderella non BCS school to repeat that is purely senseless.  that is why they call them cinderellas becuase they are once in a generation and that is why big time recruits dont flock there year after year becuase they know that!!  You cant do it at a non BCS type school.  To use that as an excuse why a coach at a BE program with all the advantages tom Crean had is terribly off base. 

next week Mu84 will argue all the reasons the New york Yankees cannot be expected to win Pennent. 

coo koo

[JMcSteal]

Im gonna have to side with hayward on this topic.

plus idk how if your not Duke, UNC, or Kansas why someone would think we could have a top recruiting class year after year, its makes no sense. The final four did not hurt us, the person who did the recruiting hurt us. To think making the FF hurt our recruiting is ridiculous

[The Lens]

Lens Baby,
"Hayward, PRN, DKCL, 4Ever & EAT.  We stick together!"



You sure about EAT? Otherwise we all be brothers.

ZFB DBA EAT loves us.

Also Murff is dead on.  I've seen this in business where one client is always name dropped and other clients eventually just want to hear about themselves.  Everyone has an ego, especially top athletes, at the end of the day their affinity for an NBA star takes 2nd place to their belief in their own abilities. 

[Marquette84]

I really think MU84 is truly dense.  Here he throws out another mid major non BCS school.  Maybe not mid major but not BCS and no where near the history of MU or in the BE. 

MU your retarded hypothesis is all wrong...Utah went to the Final 4 for the first time since Brigham Young played becuase they had two great players...to then expect a cinderella non BCS school to repeat that is purely senseless.  that is why they call them cinderellas becuase they are once in a generation and that is why big time recruits dont flock there year after year becuase they know that!!  You cant do it at a non BCS type school.  To use that as an excuse why a coach at a BE program with all the advantages tom Crean had is terribly off base. 

next week Mu84 will argue all the reasons the New york Yankees cannot be expected to win Pennent. 

coo koo

You know, Hayward, here's the most pathetic thing about you:

YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT CONFERENCE WE WERE IN IN 2003!!!

You are OBVIOUSLY not a Marquette fan--true Marquette fans know that our first season in the Big East didn't occur until 2006.  

Instead, every disadvantage you apply to Utah applies equally to Marquette:


***.Utah went to the Final 4 for the first time since Brigham Young played
And the last time MU went to the Final 4 was about the time Gerald Ford was handing power to Jimmy Carter.

***becuase they had two great players
And so did MU. Three if you count Novak.

***.to then expect a cinderella
Which is exactly what MU was called in 2003.

***non BCS school.

Conference USA was about as "non-BCS as you can get.  


***to repeat that is purely senseless.
So why are you so upset with MU's post-2003 performance?


*** that is why they call them cinderellas becuase they are once in a generation
1977 to 2003:  26 years--almost exactly one generation had passed since MU's last final 4.


****and that is why big time recruits dont flock there year after year becuase they know that!!
And yet, you ripped on Crean incessantly for the 2003 recruiting class, even though you admit that big time recruits don't flock to cinderella, once-in-a-generation, non-BCS schools.


*** To use that as an excuse why a coach at a BE program with all the advantages tom Crean had is terribly off base.  

MU was not a BE program

[Marquette84]

truly great recruiters like Kevin Oneill sold a program that had nothing and signed 4 good classes in a row that produced as many NBA players in 4 years as Crean got in 9, Oneil did this with the old gym and the MCC!!  He could sell ice to an eskimo!!  

Can't let these mistakes go:

First, O'Neill coached MU for five seasons--not four.

Second, MU was in the Great Midwest for 3 of O'Neill's 5 seasons (60%)
Crean only had the Big East for 3 of his 9 seasons (33%)

Third, it's a bit premature to conclude that Crean had the same number of NBA players as O'Neill.  McNeal, Matthews, James, and Hayward have NBA possibilities.