Let's Think Rationally About This...

[El Duderino]

Agreed, not many hold them to their LOI.  My point is that the timeline seems to be ignored.  Buzz was given an opportunity to save that recruit, it didn't happen.  Life goes on, but the decision was made AFTER that saving attempt was made.

That's also why I laugh my ass off about the cupboard being bare.....how many guys walk in off the street to take over a program with 3 of the top 10 scorers in the history of the program and a 4th that will likely make it there.  MU would obviously be in a lot better shape right now if Junior and Otule were playing.  Unfortunately they are not, and for some reason EWill isn't ready to play which adds to the depth problem.

While i don't think Crean left much behind the class of Jerel, Wes, and Dominic so thus it's hurting the team this year, to be fair to Crean, those three players seemed to have helped Buzz land a few of his recruits.

If i remember correctly, Vander Blue and a few others mentioned liking the style of play by Marquette. For Buzz being able to inherit those three seniors, it allowed him to win right away while also playing an appealing style of ball for recruits on watch on TV. It gave Buzz some credibility that he could win so long as he had some talent.

Many coaches have to take over teams that stink and the head coach was canned. Buzz does strike me as a flat out good recruiter regardless, but i'm sure it helped to go out there and sell himself along with Marquette after the team had a good season last year.

I don't strongly dislike Crean as many here seem to, even if i'm bothered by how he left and i hold it against him to a degree. As a head coach though, one thing that did frustrate me was that even with the success Crean had, i think his reputation nationally as a very good recruiter was overrated. He was a solid recruiter, that's it. I think Buzz has the potential to be quite a bit better there, but time will tell.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So now "asked" and "allowed" carry the same connotation as "begged". Maybe you should worry less about psychology and a little more about simple English.

This from the guy that didn't understand that alma mater refers to more than your undergraduate institution.   

And you may want to look up the word beg and what the definition is there and tell me how I'm wrong.

Thanks

Here's a crumb trail for you.....  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begged

[ChicosBailBonds]

Free agency nonsense? What would you call a recruit released from his LOI when the coach leaves. Isn't he then free to select any school he chooses? Sounds like the definition of a free agent to me.

I guess TC's cupboard wasn't really bare when he arrived at IU either. Jordan Crawford (Xavier) and the dude who threw the plant at TC evidently wanted no part of Crean. Probably others, but I didn't follow the situation very closely.

That's correct....once he is RELEASED.  But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?


1)  Crean Leaves
2)  TT still under LOI with Marquette
3)  Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4)  TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5)  MU releases TT from LOI

You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.

[DaCoach]

That's correct....once he is RELEASED.  But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?


1)  Crean Leaves
2)  TT still under LOI with Marquette
3)  Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4)  TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5)  MU releases TT from LOI

You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.

I don't quite understand why you equate a LOI with an asset. It's like giving a girl a friendship ring when you go overseas to work. Chances are that relationship will last until you board the plane. Taylor committed to Crean, not to Marquette.

When a coach leaves all he leaves behind is his roster. Taylor was never

[ATL MU Warrior]

That's correct....once he is RELEASED.  But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?


1)  Crean Leaves
2)  TT still under LOI with Marquette
3)  Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4)  TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5)  MU releases TT from LOI

You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.

This is ridiculous.  Once #1 happened the only possible outcome was #5.  In your mind, how is the blame for that NOT placed squarely on Crean?

[warriorfred]

With respect to my way earlier bench comment, why not play Williams or Mbao?  If 5 minutes of playing time for Williams or Mbao means a ten point loss to Villanova, it is still a loss.

Rationally speaking, if you are going to lose, despite playing your best 7 men, why not build toward next season and get the others some playing time?  If it is a rebuilding year, then why not coach like it is a rebuilding year?  

[GGGG]

With respect to my way earlier bench comment, why not play Williams or Mbao?  If 5 minutes of playing time for Williams or Mbao means a ten point loss to Villanova, it is still a loss.

Rationally speaking, if you are going to lose, despite playing your best 7 men, why not build toward next season and get the others some playing time?  If it is a rebuilding year, then why not coach like it is a rebuilding year?  

Because you play the games to win.  Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.

[Hards Alumni]

Because you play the games to win.  Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.

exactly, you learn in PRACTICE.

Just as you learn in class and studying at the library, not while you take the test.

[The Lens]

Like I said, it is what is.  The same thing will happen when Buzz leaves, players will go elsewhere.  My only point is that it's silly to say the cupboard was bare....it wasn't, they just chose not to play for MU and Buzz.  That's a big difference in my mind.

To me, to say the cupboard is bare is an example of when Mike Deane left...that's having the cupboard bare.  A few decent players but nothing to write home about and we WANTED players to transfer.  Same when KO came in....we WANTED players to transfer for upgrades.  When TC left, we DID NOT want players to transfer because they were talented players...thus, the cupboard not being bare just by definition.

I've talked to a former player of Kevin's who was in the room when KO told the team he was going to Tennessee.  His message was clear..."I'm going to TN and you're not.  You're playing for MU and I'm not"

(Well actually he threw in a few "F'n-ings")

If TC manned up and told kids to honor their scholarship we certainly are deeper.  Why TC couldn't do that is beyond me.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'd argue we're doing more than hanging with them, we are doing enough to win the games but fall short at crunch time.

Well, obviously we aren't doing enough to win the games, or we would be winning them. MU will be a tough out. Not a good team, but a tough out.

[bilsu]

TT always wanted to play for Kansas. It was his dream school. He only signed with MU, because Kansas did not offer him a scholarship. Kansas wins national championship, Kansas players turn pro creating open scholarships and then Crean leaves giving TT a chance to demand his release. Buzz did not lose him because of Buzz, TT never gave him the chance once his dream became a reality.
Besides that we are going to lose this year not because of a lack of talent, but because we do not have the necessary experience to win games at the end. Look at Georgetwon last year or Uconn three years ago. They had talent, but fared poorly in Big East because of their lack of experience. That is why I have always said we were not going to do as good as many of you were predicting. Because to win 11 or 12 games meant this team had to win almost all of the close games and those games usually are won by the battle tested teams, especially the ones that played in the final four a year ago.

[4everwarriors]

Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***







***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.

[warriorfred]

Because you play the games to win.  Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.

Two responses:

1.  The strategy of playing the game to win with 6 -7 players has not produced many victories.  Maybe it's time to reevaluate that approach.

2.  Five minutes of playing time holds no value; are you serious?  There is nothing like game time.  You can talk about practice all you want, and it is important, but a game situation is so much different.  Ask yourself, if the game had gone into overtime, and with MU's foul trouble, would you feel better if Williams and Mbao had some game experience if they were forced to play?  This isn't the movie Hoosiers, and Strapp is not going to come in the game and suddenly light up Villanova for 20. 

There is no substitute for the real thing, game time.  Playing 7 has not got MU very far, and it will not carry them very far the rest of the season.

[GOMU1104]

With respect to TT...Buzz was the lead recruiter and really worked him and sold him during his visit (haunted hoops I believe) and eventually got a commitment.

Many believe that even if TC would have stayed, TT would have figured out a way to get to Kansas. When crean left, it gave him the out he needed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is ridiculous.  Once #1 happened the only possible outcome was #5.  In your mind, how is the blame for that NOT placed squarely on Crean?

Really, so using that logic then all players that sign a LOI always leave when a new coach comes in.  Interesting, I wonder why this is so wrong and so many times the player decides to honor the commitment TO THE UNIVERSITY.   Hmmmmm

I also wonder why all that time was wasted to have Buzz go down there, meet with the player, his family and coach.  I mean, if it was a done deal, why bother.  With Nick Williams, we flat our released him no questions, no attempts, nothing....we didn't do that with TT.  Hmmmmmmm

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***







***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.

So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?

Seems too convenient.

I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.

If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***







***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.

Exactly....except...wait....he left MU Seniors who finished as the #1 scorer in MU history (also the all time leader in steals), the #3 scorer in MU history (also #2 in assists), the #8 scorer in MU history (who now starts for a NBA team) and a first team All Big East player with 2 years left and soon to be a top 10 scorer in MU history.

Talk about a bare cupboard, it was a regular Mother Hubbard situation.  




Gentlemen, Buzz could not have walked into a better situation in his life with what was left for him in his first year.  Unfortunately, injuries have killed this team but stop with the nonsense.  Players were here, they left because they didn't want to play for MU under Buzz.  He then recruited his own players who, unfortunately, have been injured.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?

Seems too convenient.

I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.

If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.

EXACTLY!!!!!  Injuries, bad luck and players leaving.  It's funny, last year he was the man even though he walked into the greatest situation known to any coach in the last 20 years.  This year, it's all TC's fault. Funny double standards at work again.

Buzz is doing a fine job, he's short handed, things will improve but the excuses \ double standards here are never ending.  They are who we thought they were.  Actually, I'd argue they are better than we thought they were which is why it's so frustrating to see them beat teams for 38 or 39 minutes and come up short.  The talent is there to win these games, the talent doesn't disappear for 60 seconds.

[4everwarriors]

So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?

Seems too convenient.

I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.

If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.

Not exactly. The statement was made previously, of which I agree, that we don't have the experienced players to win close games at the end. Hard to argue that point, isn't it. Buzz has been on the job about 460 days. The previous coach left him with exactly 3 seniors this year. Two of those guys were never starters. And, it can be intelligently argued do not possess the talent necessary to compete effectively in the BE. How many Juniors and Sophomores did Tommy leave behind for Buzz to build with? Why do you think Williams has been trying to even out the classes?
Buzz is bringing in good talent, but they're inexperienced. It takes time. Junior college ball doesn't subsitute for Big East experience. If you're going to pee with the big boys, get 2 hands around the old gregory and go for it. Crean's a one-handed  3rd grader pisser.

[Hards Alumni]

Two responses:

1.  The strategy of playing the game to win with 6 -7 players has not produced many victories.  Maybe it's time to reevaluate that approach.

2.  Five minutes of playing time holds no value; are you serious?  There is nothing like game time.  You can talk about practice all you want, and it is important, but a game situation is so much different.  Ask yourself, if the game had gone into overtime, and with MU's foul trouble, would you feel better if Williams and Mbao had some game experience if they were forced to play?  This isn't the movie Hoosiers, and Strapp is not going to come in the game and suddenly light up Villanova for 20. 

There is no substitute for the real thing, game time.  Playing 7 has not got MU very far, and it will not carry them very far the rest of the season.

We were picked 12th in the BE this year.  We just lost to two of the top 3 teams in the BE by a COMBINED 3 points... one game on the road.

REDUCE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

It isn't fair to go into 'full rebuild' mode to Lazar.  You don't take years off when you have a first team all BE player on your team.  You do what is right, you go out and win.  Williams and Mbao won't just "figure it out" defensively during a game.  I'm sorry if you think that, but they won't.  They will learn 95% of what they learn in practice... where they spend 95% of their time.

I am so tired of this 'there is no substitute for game time' garbage.  It is a stupid bullet point that you hear announcers bring up.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We were picked 12th in the BE this year.  We just lost to two of the top 3 teams in the BE by a COMBINED 3 points... one game on the road.

REDUCE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

It isn't fair to go into 'full rebuild' mode to Lazar.  You don't take years off when you have a first team all BE player on your team.  You do what is right, you go out and win.  Williams and Mbao won't just "figure it out" defensively during a game.  I'm sorry if you think that, but they won't.  They will learn 95% of what they learn in practice... where they spend 95% of their time.

I am so tired of this 'there is no substitute for game time' garbage.  It is a stupid bullet point that you hear announcers bring up.

I agree with you until your last statement.....most coaches will tell you that you simply cannot substitute game time experience with practice time.  I think you're off base on that one.

[Lennys Tap]

That's correct....once he is RELEASED.  But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?


1)  Crean Leaves
2)  TT still under LOI with Marquette
3)  Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4)  TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5)  MU releases TT from LOI

You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.

Real "timeline":

1)Crean leaves
2)Hurley and Taylor do backflips since this means Tyshawn can fufill his dream to play for Kansas. Taylor (through Hurley) immediately asks MU for a release.
3)In a public relation move to soften Hurley's harsh statements about Marquette, Hurley, Taylor and his family grant Buzz a "meeting".
4)Mission accomplished, MU releases Taylor and he signs with Kansas.

Buzz participated in the charade on the one in a million chance that Taylor was really still "open", but that ship had already sailed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've talked to a former player of Kevin's who was in the room when KO told the team he was going to Tennessee.  His message was clear..."I'm going to TN and you're not.  You're playing for MU and I'm not"

(Well actually he threw in a few "F'n-ings")

If TC manned up and told kids to honor their scholarship we certainly are deeper.  Why TC couldn't do that is beyond me.

What a great guy...was he wearing his Tennessee sweatshirt at the time, wiping his nose on his MU contract and getting serviced in the room by.....?  KO....the model of loyalty everywhere he's been.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Real "timeline":

1)Crean leaves
2)Hurley and Taylor do backflips since this means Tyshawn can fufill his dream to play for Kansas. Taylor (through Hurley) immediately asks MU for a release.
3)In a public relation move to soften Hurley's harsh statements about Marquette, Hurley, Taylor and his family grant Buzz a "meeting".
4)Mission accomplished, MU releases Taylor and he signs with Kansas.

Buzz participated in the charade on the one in a million chance that Taylor was really still "open", but that ship had already sailed.

PR move....why, was Hurley's program in jeopardy of taking some kind of hit.  LOL.  I'll bet they are hurting now.  

I'll ask again because you have yet to answer it.  If TC didn't leave, TT plays for Crean at MU...correct?

Secondly, what was the reason that Hurley gave for him not wanting TT to play for Buzz.  Would you like another crumb trail?  I'll help you....he knew nothing of Buzz...Buzz had no track record and he didn't want his star player to play for someone he knew nothing about.  Yet despite all this, Buzz went through the "charade" as well.

Interesting...sounds like a dumb and dumber skit

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/KX5jNnDMfxA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/KX5jNnDMfxA</a>

[GOMU1104]

I'll ask again because you have yet to answer it.  If TC didn't leave, TT plays for Crean at MU...correct?

Impossible to say for sure....

HOWEVER...I will say this again, many thought that TT would have found a way to get to Kansas, even if Crean would've stayed.