IDF targets and kills food aid workers

[MU82]

Encouraged by the current administration where there are no punishments for your actions, hey?

Says the guy who thinks the 1/6/21 domestic terrorists should be set free.

[forgetful]

Seizing the real only border crossing still getting major aid in, after Hamas agreed to a cease fire deal that would give all the hostages back to Israel, really is a bad look.

There was no military benefit to seizing the border crossing, and blocking aid flow. It just amplifies the narrative of collective punishment.

Netanyahu and colleagues continue to handle all of this about as badly as possible, and continue to blur the line differentiating themselves from Hamas.

[Hards Alumni]

We'll disagree on Hamas having paid the price. I am sad about the innocents on both sides that have died or been injured. Aren't you?

Obviously.  But do you think blowing up more people is the solution?

[MU82]

Obviously.  But do you think blowing up more people is the solution?

Obviously not. I haven't heard a viable "solution" yet.

[jesmu84]

As far as I understand...

Ceasefire deal that stated Hamas releases all hostages and Israel stops the fighting.

Hamas agreed. Israel did not.

[lawdog77]

As far as I understand...

Ceasefire deal that stated Hamas releases all hostages and Israel stops the fighting.

Hamas agreed. Israel did not.

According to Reuters:
Based on details announced so far by Hamas officials, a copy of the proposal and an official briefed on the talks, the deal that the Palestinian group said it had agreed to included the following:
PHASE ONE
- 42-day ceasefire period
- Hamas freeing 33 Israeli hostages, , alive or dead, in return for Israel releasing 30 children and women for each released Israeli hostage, based on lists provided by Hamas according to the earliest date of detention.

Hamas will release three Israeli hostages on the third day of the agreement, and then release three more hostages every seven days, prioritising women if possible, including civilians and conscripts.
- In the sixth week, Hamas will release all remaining civilian hostages covered by this phase. In exchange, Israel will release the agreed number of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons, according to the lists that will be provided by Hamas.
– Israel partially withdraws troops from Gaza and allows the free movement of Palestinians from south to north Gaza.
- Cessation of military flights over the Gaza Strip will take place for 10 hours per day and 12 hours on the day of releasing the hostages and prisoners.
- On the third day after releasing the first Palestinian prisoners, the Israeli forces will completely withdraw from al-Rashid street in northern Gaza, and all military sites will be dismantled.
- On the 22nd day of the first phase, Israeli forces will withdraw from the centre of the strip, east of Salah al-Din road to an area near the Israeli border.
PHASE TWO
- Another 42-day period that features an agreement to restore a "sustainable calm" to Gaza, language that an official briefed on the talks said Hamas and Israel had agreed in order to take discussion of a "permanent ceasefire" off the table.
- The complete withdrawal of most Israeli troops from Gaza.
- Hamas releases Israeli reservists and some soldiers in return for Israel releasing Palestinians from jail.
PHASE THREE
- The completion of exchanging bodies and starting the implementation of reconstruction according to the plan overseen by Qatar, Egypt and the United Nations.
- Ending the complete blockade on the Gaza Strip.
- Start of the implementation of a 3-5 year plan for reconstruction of the Gaza Strip, including homes, civilian facilities and infrastructure, and compensation for all those affected, under the supervision of a number of countries and organisations including Egypt, Qatar and the United Nations.

[Pakuni]

According to Reuters:
Based on details announced so far by Hamas officials, a copy of the proposal and an official briefed on the talks, the deal that the Palestinian group said it had agreed to included the following:
PHASE ONE
- 42-day ceasefire period
- Hamas freeing 33 Israeli hostages, , alive or dead, in return for Israel releasing 30 children and women for each released Israeli hostage, based on lists provided by Hamas according to the earliest date of detention.

By my math, this means Israel is holding a minimum 990 Palestinian women and children.
Maybe the reasons are completely valid, but that jumps out.

[lawdog77]

By my math, this means Israel is holding a minimum 990 Palestinian women and children.
Maybe the reasons are completely valid, but that jumps out.

What jumps out to me is that its not an.immediate release of the hostages

[MU82]

What jumps out to me is that its not an.immediate release of the hostages

Ditto.

The terrorist group that started the war ... the one that attacked and raped and killed and took hostages and, by all accounts, treated the hostages with great cruelty ... and the one that still has the goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth ... that terrorist organization wants everything and wants to give precious little.

[JWags85]

What jumps out to me is that its not an.immediate release of the hostages

“Alive or dead” is shocking as well. 

“Here is the body of a civilian hostage that we killed, now give us 30 Palestinians who attempted to kill Israelis”.

By my math, this means Israel is holding a minimum 990 Palestinian women and children.
Maybe the reasons are completely valid, but that jumps out.

Definitely seems high, but then I thought about

A) the teen who was shot a month or two ago after stabbing a soldier at a border checkpoint

B) the Palestinian woman, who got released or pushed for release in a previous exchange, who was detained after a failed car bombing at a checkpoint.

I forget the exact number, but my BIL shared a stat of how many foiled/unsuccessful attacks there are on IDF soldiers or civilian targets near the border for every successful attack.  Multiple monthly if not weekly.  And that’s not factoring teenage Hamas/PIJ/etc fighters who get described as children in statistics.

There are undoubtedly some unfairly detained Palestinian civilians, as well as teens who made stupid rash decisions due to bad influence or programming by others, but I can see how the numbers get high rather quickly.

[Pakuni]

What jumps out to me is that its not an.immediate release of the hostages

I would imagine a barrister such as yourself knows not to surrender all your negotiating chips immediately and all at once.
Not defending Hamas, theyre terrible, but it shouldn't jump out to anyone that they're holding onto their only leverage here as long as they can.

[MuggsyB]

Ditto.

The terrorist group that started the war ... the one that attacked and raped and killed and took hostages and, by all accounts, treated the hostages with great cruelty ... and the one that still has the goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth ... that terrorist organization wants everything and wants to give precious little.

They're the scum of the earth.  Their only goal is terror and wiping Israel off the map.   This has always been clear as Waterford crystal.

[Pakuni]

“Alive or dead” is shocking as well. 

“Here is the body of a civilian hostage that we killed, now give us 30 Palestinians who attempted to kill Israelis”.


Definitely seems high, but then I thought about

A) the teen who was shot a month or two ago after stabbing a soldier at a border checkpoint

B) the Palestinian woman, who got released or pushed for release in a previous exchange, who was detained after a failed car bombing at a checkpoint.

I forget the exact number, but my BIL shared a stat of how many foiled/unsuccessful attacks there are on IDF soldiers or civilian targets near the border for every successful attack.  Multiple monthly if not weekly.  And that’s not factoring teenage Hamas/PIJ/etc fighters who get described as children in statistics.

There are undoubtedly some unfairly detained Palestinian civilians, as well as teens who made stupid rash decisions due to bad influence or programming by others, but I can see how the numbers get high rather quickly.

They're not suicide bombers and stabbers. They're rock throwers, protestors and kids who the IDF decides might commit a crime in the future (yes, for real). Most face only military tribunals and aren't given an opportunity to defend themselves.
This doesn't have to be a whataboutism thing. Both sides are terrible. The fact one side is less terrible doesn't make their actions any better.

https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/21/a-hidden-universe-of-suffering-the-palestinian-children-sent-to-jail

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap

[forgetful]

“Alive or dead” is shocking as well. 

“Here is the body of a civilian hostage that we killed, now give us 30 Palestinians who attempted to kill Israelis”.


Definitely seems high, but then I thought about

A) the teen who was shot a month or two ago after stabbing a soldier at a border checkpoint

B) the Palestinian woman, who got released or pushed for release in a previous exchange, who was detained after a failed car bombing at a checkpoint.

I forget the exact number, but my BIL shared a stat of how many foiled/unsuccessful attacks there are on IDF soldiers or civilian targets near the border for every successful attack.  Multiple monthly if not weekly.  And that’s not factoring teenage Hamas/PIJ/etc fighters who get described as children in statistics.

There are undoubtedly some unfairly detained Palestinian civilians, as well as teens who made stupid rash decisions due to bad influence or programming by others, but I can see how the numbers get high rather quickly.

There are also a ton of these.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-west-bank-samaher-esmail-arrested-for-alleged-incitement-social-media/

People arrested without charges for social media posts that Israel didn't like. A significant number of the detainees were arrested, often following military incursions into the West Bank, with no charges being filed and held under "administrative detention".

This individual was eventually released, because the US government stepped in, since it was a US citizen.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/palestinians-describe-harassment-from-israeli-forces-over-social-media-posts-during-war

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/05/middleeast/palestinians-israel-fear-arrest-gaza-intl-cmd/index.html


There have been a lot of arrests, and West Bank incursions to make arrests, for such simple crimes as posting a Palestinian Flag on social media (under an incitement to violence on social media act).

Notably, not a single person has been arrested under that bill for incitement to violence against Arabs.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/zero-indictments-for-incitement-against-arabs-filed-despite-widespread-online-hate/

[forgetful]

Hamas is terrible and committed a terrorist act. Everyone agrees on that. The big question is what should be done, and what rights do the Palestinian people have.

I've asked it before, and no one responds, but what would posters here do if the following happened to you or your family, and this continued to happen over decades:

Armed settlers, often with the help of military, repeatedly attack and destroy your homes, businesses and land.

Your property, and even graveyards are bulldozed, and you are forced from your homes so they can build settlements for other people.

Military units repeatedly conduct incursion into your neighborhoods/homes, and detain individuals without any charges or crimes acknowledged, and if anyone remotely resists is shot on sight.

And no matter what you do, this cycle repeats itself, and the international community refuses to allow you to have the right to self-determination.

UN laws say they have a right to self-determination, yet they are the only people that are denied that right.

In your opinion, what are they allowed to do?

[MU82]

forgetful, you are a knowledgeable and thoughtful guy, and I often find myself nodding my head at many parts of your posts.

But we can do hypotheticals all day and night.

I mean, I ask how you would feel about “fairness” if your daughter was raped and killed in a live-streamed event after a terrorist organization brutally attacked your country?

As for cycles that repeat themselves, “Israel must die!” is an oldie but baddie that the likes of Hamas has been singing for decades.

[forgetful]

forgetful, you are a knowledgeable and thoughtful guy, and I often find myself nodding my head at many parts of your posts.

But we can do hypotheticals all day and night.

I mean, I ask how you would feel about “fairness” if your daughter was raped and killed in a live-streamed event after a terrorist organization brutally attacked your country?

As for cycles that repeat themselves, “Israel must die!” is an oldie but baddie that the likes of Hamas has been singing for decades.

Thank you for the kind words, and I agree that we can do hypotheticals all day and night.

I would want justice if that happened.

My argument is that neither Hamas nor Israel is seeking justice. They are seeking to institute collective punishment on the people they view as an "other." And that they are both seeking to remove the other from what they view as their land. And in the end, innocent civilians suffer on both sides.

And I do know people that have suffered horrors on both sides over there.

I ask the hypothetical, because I'm pretty certain that a lot of the posters on here, who spew legitimate hate against Palestinians (not you), would be the first people to take up arms if they were in their shoes.

And those same people, if history was reversed, and in 1948 the Arab states defeated Israel and confined the Jewish population to a fragmented land the world refused to recognize, they would be openly supporting Jews in rising up against what they would view as their Arab oppressors.

Because for them, it isn't about right or wrong, it is about who they identify with, and who they identify as the enemy.

It breaks my heart that Palestinians and Israelis continue to suffer, and live in fear, because political/religious zealots refuse to acknowledge the humanity and rights of all people. And that many nations, use these people as political pawns to pursue their own political/religious agendas.

And to be honest, if someone wants to call me naive, because I just want the world "to get along," and as a result abhor violence as a solution, that would be perfectly fair.


 

[lawdog77]

I would imagine a barrister such as yourself knows not to surrender all your negotiating chips immediately and all at once.
Not defending Hamas, theyre terrible, but it shouldn't jump out to anyone that they're holding onto their only leverage here as long as they can.

Sounds to me like you are defending their request  to hold dead and alive hostages for up to 6 weeks.If they truly want peace, Step 1 should include immediate release. They are not losing their bargaining chip if it is part of the written peace agreement.