Brew City Ball forum..

[MerrittsMustache]

Wow..you can't even engage in a reasonable debate on the reasonable post I made...and to suggest playing the same team at home because it is a different point in time 4 weeks later isn't a good comparison/benchmark??  Wow!  But, I promise I'll limit any such comments regardless of outcome either way to less than 500.

Dawson played 17 minutes at Xavier on 1/9 and MU lost by 7.
Dawson played 0 minutes against Xavier on 2/15 and MU won by 9.

Dawson played 0 minutes against DePaul on 1/4 and MU won by 10.
Dawson played 12 minutes against DePaul on 2/22 and MU won by 2 in OT.

Are those good benchmarks? Or were they different games, at different points in time, at different locations with different gameplans?

[77ncaachamps]

[quote from: mu03eng on Today at 10:14:15 AM]
I was thinking about writing something very similar this morning, thanks for posting this.  I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the negative crowd are fireball throwers that has honest debate as a secondary concern, if that.

I'm willing to bet 95% of the board believes the following facts:
-This season has been a disappointment
-The team has underachieved expectations
-This team struggles on the offensive end
-This team is inconsistent
-We have talented freshmen that have not gotten as much playing time as we would like (the reasons for this are wildly varied)
-This team has had some questionable coaching decisions
-This team has had some issues that were "uncontrollable" that have impacted the results
-This team has a very long shot at the NCAA tournament
-Buzz is having a down year but ultimately is still the coach for this university and team for the foreseeable future.
-Buzz is not above reproach for his decisions, but that doesn't mean every decision can/should be questioned

If the above are true for the vast majority we are arguing on the margins, which is fine but then we can drop the whole "you guys love Buzz and can't question anything he ever does".  Nothing frustrates me more than trying to take a nuanced stance which says yes there are issues but it's not armageddon and have that turned into you are Buzz's best friend.  All it does is stifle debate which is why I think at least at a sub-conscious level it's intentional.

Probably the post of the year. [/quote]

Probably the post of the year.

Co-sign.

[NersEllenson]

Dawson played 17 minutes at Xavier on 1/9 and MU lost by 7.
Dawson played 0 minutes against Xavier on 2/15 and MU won by 9.

Dawson played 0 minutes against DePaul on 1/4 and MU won by 10.
Dawson played 12 minutes against DePaul on 2/22 and MU won by 2 in OT.

Are those good benchmarks? Or were they different games, at different points in time, at different locations with different gameplans?

Still waiting for you to answer the question:

Do you ever feel there has been an instance in sports where a coach has stuck with the veteran player for too long?

And as for your benchmarks....you are 100% confident that Derrick is the best option for the team playing max minutes/starting at the PG position - you've said Dawson simply isn't ready.  My response:  There's only been 1 game where Dawson was given the 30 minutes Derrick has gotten in I believe 23 of our 27 games - and Dawson didn't lay a brick in that game and was squarely responsible for leading us to the winner's circle, in arguably our best win of the year - on the road at GTown.

Now you want to throw out comparisons based on Dawson playing 12 and 17 minutes??  Should we mention all of the games we've lost where Derrick has gotten 17+ minutes??  And in your example it is a contrast of the results in home versus away games?  Do you agree there is a real and definite homecourt advantage that most oddsmakers would put at +3 to 5 points depending on degree of homecourt advantage - i.e. Duke, Syracuse, Kansas, Kentucky, Lville, and Marquette historically?

So, we'll see what happens against Georgetown at home - I sure hope it is a win, regardless of how we get it...just think it is funny that already you are trying to make excuses in the event we were to lose the game at home to suggest that a comparison isn't relevant.

[mu03eng]

Still waiting for you to answer the question:

Do you ever feel there has been an instance in sports where a coach has stuck with the veteran player for too long?

And as for your benchmarks....you are 100% confident that Derrick is the best option for the team playing max minutes/starting at the PG position - you've said Dawson simply isn't ready.  My response:  There's only been 1 game where Dawson was given the 30 minutes Derrick has gotten in I believe 23 of our 27 games - and Dawson didn't lay a brick in that game and was squarely responsible for leading us to the winner's circle, in arguably our best win of the year - on the road at GTown.

Now you want to throw out comparisons based on Dawson playing 12 and 17 minutes??  Should we mention all of the games we've lost where Derrick has gotten 17+ minutes??  And in your example it is a contrast of the results in home versus away games?  Do you agree there is a real and definite homecourt advantage that most oddsmakers would put at +3 to 5 points depending on degree of homecourt advantage - i.e. Duke, Syracuse, Kansas, Kentucky, Lville, and Marquette historically?

So, we'll see what happens against Georgetown at home - I sure hope it is a win, regardless of how we get it...just think it is funny that already you are trying to make excuses in the event we were to lose the game at home to suggest that a comparison isn't relevant.

Ners, I'm amazed you have hamstrings left with all the backpedaling and spinning you do 

All joking aside, how minutes a game do you need Dawson to play and for how many games for it to be a "fair" evaluation of Dawson?  And I think we can re-hire some people because we clearly can practice less as we don't need it to evaluate players. 

[NersEllenson]

Ners, I'm amazed you have hamstrings left with all the backpedaling and spinning you do 

All joking aside, how minutes a game do you need Dawson to play and for how many games for it to be a "fair" evaluation of Dawson?  And I think we can re-hire some people because we clearly can practice less as we don't need it to evaluate players. 

Nice summary post earlier mu03eng...on season...felt that was right on and well thought out. 

I really don't think I do much back peddling at all...been consistent throughout!  My point all along is that you cannot judge a player on 3 minute stints of action...Todd Mayo looks like a different player getting long stretches of run the last 5 games, even though his average minutes have only increased by roughly 4 minutes per game.  But my opposition wants to cast judgments based on these 3 minute segments, or a guy getting 10 minutes a game as "not showing" anything.

As for Dawson, I've always said I want 30 to benchmark...as that is what Derrick has averaged all year long, and that is what I feel it takes to get a feel for what a guy can do (no matter who he is - Steve Taylor, Burton, JJJ) ...as it lends itself to playing long segments of ball.  Know I caught hell when I made the point that in one game earlier this year Dawson played with 9 different guys in a matter of 3:30 seconds....that's just insane...nobody gets in any kind of flow that way.

I'm just glad Buzz has greatly reduced the crazy substitutions, though he started to revert back to it a little against DePaul...

[mu03eng]

Nice summary post earlier mu03eng...on season...felt that was right on and well thought out. 

I really don't think I do much back peddling at all...been consistent throughout!  My point all along is that you cannot judge a player on 3 minute stints of action...Todd Mayo looks like a different player getting long stretches of run the last 5 games, even though his average minutes have only increased by roughly 4 minutes per game.  But my opposition wants to cast judgments based on these 3 minute segments, or a guy getting 10 minutes a game as "not showing" anything.

As for Dawson, I've always said I want 30 to benchmark...as that is what Derrick has averaged all year long, and that is what I feel it takes to get a feel for what a guy can do (no matter who he is - Steve Taylor, Burton, JJJ) ...as it lends itself to playing long segments of ball.  Know I caught hell when I made the point that in one game earlier this year Dawson played with 9 different guys in a matter of 3:30 seconds....that's just insane...nobody gets in any kind of flow that way.

I'm just glad Buzz has greatly reduced the crazy substitutions, though he started to revert back to it a little against DePaul...

I don't have an issue with the crazy substitutions (didn't watch the majority of the DePaul game so can't speak to that) but I think Buzz's pattern has at least been with reason.  The Providence game as an example was a pressure/fresh legs kind of game given their lack of depth, etc.

I guess this is where we'll disagree because I don't think a coach needs 30 minutes of game time to evaluate a player.  I have no reason to believe Buzz is a bad evaluator of talent or intentionally sitting talent, and so he has a much broader set of data than I do. 

As a spot check, the minutes I've seen from Dawson haven't left me with nothing that says he should be getting more minutes than he does.  I would like to see a few more minutes here and there to rest Derrick for late game defense purposes but not because I think Dawson is bringing a ton more.  He is definitely capable of playing well but also poorly. 

I feel like the 30 minutes you advocate for Dawson is so YOU can confirm he is or isn't good enough right now which says you don't trust Buzz....so what is it about Buzz and this scenario that you don't trust?

[NersEllenson]

I don't have an issue with the crazy substitutions (didn't watch the majority of the DePaul game so can't speak to that) but I think Buzz's pattern has at least been with reason.  The Providence game as an example was a pressure/fresh legs kind of game given their lack of depth, etc.

I guess this is where we'll disagree because I don't think a coach needs 30 minutes of game time to evaluate a player.  I have no reason to believe Buzz is a bad evaluator of talent or intentionally sitting talent, and so he has a much broader set of data than I do. 

As a spot check, the minutes I've seen from Dawson haven't left me with nothing that says he should be getting more minutes than he does.  I would like to see a few more minutes here and there to rest Derrick for late game defense purposes but not because I think Dawson is bringing a ton more.  He is definitely capable of playing well but also poorly. 

I feel like the 30 minutes you advocate for Dawson is so YOU can confirm he is or isn't good enough right now which says you don't trust Buzz....so what is it about Buzz and this scenario that you don't trust?

I think you know that I am a HUGE Buzz fan, and have long been - and this year doesn't change that, even though I've found it extremely frustrating, and the first time in 6 years where I've really had ANY complaint with how he's handled things - which in and of itself I feel says a lot for how awesome Buzz has been!

As for what it is about Buzz and the PG minute allocation that I don't trust - it is no more complex than this:

Player       GP         MIN   PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TPG   FG%   FT%   3P%
Derrick Wilson   27   30.3   5.6   3.7   4.1   1.3   0.0   1.5   .414   .472   .077

And...the picture I've uploaded in other posts that shows how much defenses collapse off Derrick on the perimeter...just makes it so hard to be effective offensively.  I've said..I'd like Derrick to launch 5, 3pt shots a game...as I feel he would make 20+% of the them...I don't think he's as bad of shooter as his 3 pt percentage indicates...and it would help in that teams would defend him more honestly, and help the other guys in turn.  So, perhaps Buzz has told Derrick to not shoot 3's...I don't know...but it seems if you are going to play the guy 30.3 minutes per game...he should be allowed to shoot 3's and should do so when being played with such a cushion.

[mu03eng]

I think you know that I am a HUGE Buzz fan, and have long been - and this year doesn't change that, even though I've found it extremely frustrating, and the first time in 6 years where I've really had ANY complaint with how he's handled things - which in and of itself I feel says a lot for how awesome Buzz has been!

As for what it is about Buzz and the PG minute allocation that I don't trust - it is no more complex than this:

Player       GP         MIN   PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TPG   FG%   FT%   3P%
Derrick Wilson   27   30.3   5.6   3.7   4.1   1.3   0.0   1.5   .414   .472   .077

And...the picture I've uploaded in other posts that shows how much defenses collapse off Derrick on the perimeter...just makes it so hard to be effective offensively.  I've said..I'd like Derrick to launch 5, 3pt shots a game...as I feel he would make 20+% of the them...I don't think he's as bad of shooter as his 3 pt percentage indicates...and it would help in that teams would defend him more honestly, and help the other guys in turn.  So, perhaps Buzz has told Derrick to not shoot 3's...I don't know...but it seems if you are going to play the guy 30.3 minutes per game...he should be allowed to shoot 3's and should do so when being played with such a cushion.

Min   FG   FGA   % 3Pt FG 3Pt FGA  %     FT%   Def   Off   TRebs   Asst.   St.   BS   F   TO   TP 854  102  200   51   10   33   30.3        58.25   77   20   97      118   87      8     63   69    274 813   58   140   41.4  1      13    7.7   47.2   67     34    101   112      36      1    64    40     151

Blue is Derrick, Red is the full first year as starter for a point guard you've heard of....which would you rather have?

[NersEllenson]

Min   FG   FGA   % 3Pt FG 3Pt FGA  %     FT%   Def   Off   TRebs   Asst.   St.   BS   F   TO   TP 854  102  200   51   10   33   30.3        58.25   77   20   97      118   87      8     63   69    274 813   58   140   41.4  1      13    7.7   47.2   67     34    101   112      36      1    64    40     151

Blue is Derrick, Red is the full first year as starter for a point guard you've heard of....which would you rather have?

Gotta be some kind of trick question, right?!  Please don't go try to tell me that the red* guy is somehow worse.    

[mu03eng]

Gotta be some kind of trick question, right?!  Please don't go try to tell me that the red* guy is somehow worse.    

Depends on whether you value the ball or something.  Clearly the player in red is better(except turnovers and rebounds....which are important) but not that much better right?

[Jay Bee]

Red; remember pace of play as well. The guy in red played faster.

His steal rate was absolutely elite and his turnover rate was "only" 23.7. Red guy's team was an elite defense as well and he had a DR% higher than DW's.

[MerrittsMustache]

Still waiting for you to answer the question:

Do you ever feel there has been an instance in sports where a coach has stuck with the veteran player for too long?

And as for your benchmarks....you are 100% confident that Derrick is the best option for the team playing max minutes/starting at the PG position - you've said Dawson simply isn't ready.  My response:  There's only been 1 game where Dawson was given the 30 minutes Derrick has gotten in I believe 23 of our 27 games - and Dawson didn't lay a brick in that game and was squarely responsible for leading us to the winner's circle, in arguably our best win of the year - on the road at GTown.

Now you want to throw out comparisons based on Dawson playing 12 and 17 minutes??  Should we mention all of the games we've lost where Derrick has gotten 17+ minutes??  And in your example it is a contrast of the results in home versus away games?  Do you agree there is a real and definite homecourt advantage that most oddsmakers would put at +3 to 5 points depending on degree of homecourt advantage - i.e. Duke, Syracuse, Kansas, Kentucky, Lville, and Marquette historically?

So, we'll see what happens against Georgetown at home - I sure hope it is a win, regardless of how we get it...just think it is funny that already you are trying to make excuses in the event we were to lose the game at home to suggest that a comparison isn't relevant.

Sure there have been times when coaches have stuck with a guy too long...but there are significantly more times when sticking with the veteran was the right call because he was the better option.

Dawson was "squarely responsible" for MU winning at Gtown? Todd Mayo begs to differ...as do Jake, Davonte and ST Jr. Comments like that one along with your cowardly backpedal on the "different game" point that I made are why so many posters consider you such a clown.

Also, your "30 minutes benchmark" is asinine. Deonte has never played 30 minutes in a game. That makes me wonder if that kid has any offensive game. How many times does a guy need to play 30 minutes in order for you to get a feel for what the guy can do?

Todd Mayo has only played 30+ minutes 4 times in his MU career. I guess we haven't really seen enough of him to form an opinion. Coming into this season, DG had only played 30+ minutes 6 times. Despite that limited sample size, he was the BE 6th Man of the Year last year and opposing coaches selected him First-Team Big East in the preseason poll this year. He must have been REALLY good in those 6 games, huh? Chris Otule has only played 30+ minutes 3 times at MU. It's a shame that after nearly 6 years, you barely have a read on him.

And off goes Ners...

[NersEllenson]

Sure there have been times when coaches have stuck with a guy too long...but there are significantly more times when sticking with the veteran was the right call because he was the better option.

Dawson was "squarely responsible" for MU winning at Gtown? Todd Mayo begs to differ...as do Jake, Davonte and ST Jr. Comments like that one along with your cowardly backpedal on the "different game" point that I made are why so many posters consider you such a clown.

Also, your "30 minutes benchmark" is asinine. Deonte has never played 30 minutes in a game. That makes me wonder if that kid has any offensive game. How many times does a guy need to play 30 minutes in order for you to get a feel for what the guy can do?

Todd Mayo has only played 30+ minutes 4 times in his MU career. I guess we haven't really seen enough of him to form an opinion. Coming into this season, DG had only played 30+ minutes 6 times. Despite that limited sample size, he was the BE 6th Man of the Year last year and opposing coaches selected him First-Team Big East in the preseason poll this year. He must have been REALLY good in those 6 games, huh? Chris Otule has only played 30+ minutes 3 times at MU. It's a shame that after nearly 6 years, you barely have a read on him.

And off goes Ners...

LOL - Clown.  Nice, resort to name calling...I'm quite confident in my track record with regard to projecting talent and ability early on in players careers/players in general.  We'll see how it plays out.  I am confident Dawson will prove me right - as has Davante Gardner (who I said as a freshman 3 games in would be as good if not better than Robert Jackson - which I was mocked repeatedly for.)  Have said Mayo had a ton of game his freshman year...and likely would be team's 2nd-3rd leading scorer this year and could replace Vander's production...and all he needed was more minutes, more run...and what happened the last 5 games??  Numbers better than Vander's last season.  Said DJ Newbill was going to be a really good player after watching him play early at Southern Miss his freshman year..and probably would be better than Vander...pretty sure you will see DJ Newbill get drafted into the NBA...said Jake Thomas would get legitimate minutes when he transferred to Marquette..mocked by some for that prediction as well.  Said as early as 3 games into the season, that team was going to struggle if Derrick kept getting 30+...seems to have held true. Said Buzz was the real deal, and best thing to happen to MU since Al, 2 months into his first season at MU.

Sorry I had to brag - usually don't do that unless totally provoked...but I know where your arguments come from - a place of knowing deep down inside the guy you've hitched your wagon to has been a major disappointment...and whatever stats you would try to build a case to support your guy...well...those stats just don't exist...

And there was no backpeddle on the whole asinine "different games" argument you tried to throw out regarding MU playing Georgetown 5 weeks later.  Bottom line is, it is just a reflection of your insecurity over Derrick.  To suggest it isn't an apples to apples comparison when the same damn guys are playing the game (other than of course if you flip the PG minutes to where Derrick gets 30 and Dawson 10)  and being coached by the same head coaches - and only difference is the game is being played on MU's home court which should push things 5 points in our favor to start...there is zero reason why MU should lose to GTown at home.  I mean we are coming off our best 5 game stretch of the season, and by your standards and beliefs, Derrick has played brilliantly these last 5 games, right?

And yea, my bad for saying Dawson was squarely responsible for getting us a W at GTown.  Scoring our first 5 points of OT, and finishing with 7 of our 15 points in OT...definitely helped get us into the winners circle. 

[NersEllenson]

Depends on whether you value the ball or something.  Clearly the player in red is better(except turnovers and rebounds....which are important) but not that much better right?

In my view the player in red is MUCH better...I'd gladly take a guy who turns the ball over roughly 1 turnover more per game...in exchange for the additional points he generates, high FG percentage, respectable 3 pt FG percentage which ensures he needs to be guarded at all areas on the floor, and the resulting floor spacing that creates...

But go ahead with your point/rub...am quite curious to learn of the point you want to make..

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm in danger of violating the NEP, but I've been good so I think I've earned a relapse.

Buzz has seen what Dawson can do with a 30 minute run. He sees it every day IN PRACTICE.

My guess is that Dawson is getting schooled in practice. I mean come on, when has Buzz EVER resorted to using a PG for a full 40 minutes? He doesn't even trust Dawson to be a backup PG. Even the lowly Derrick Wilson managed to steal 12 minutes a game from Cadougan.

I agree that a coach may stick with a veteran too long, but I trust our coach enough to know that a PG who hasn't even earned the minutes to be Derrick's backup, is no where near being ready to be Derrick's replacement.

[g0lden3agle]

I really want to know who Red is and why I should be embarrassed to like him more than Blue.

[MerrittsMustache]

LOL - Clown.  Nice, resort to name calling...I'm quite confident in my track record with regard to projecting talent and ability early on in players careers/players in general.  We'll see how it plays out.  I am confident Dawson will prove me right - as has Davante Gardner (who I said as a freshman 3 games in would be as good if not better than Robert Jackson - which I was mocked repeatedly for.)  Have said Mayo had a ton of game his freshman year...and likely would be team's 2nd-3rd leading scorer this year and could replace Vander's production...and all he needed was more minutes, more run...and what happened the last 5 games??  Numbers better than Vander's last season.  Said DJ Newbill was going to be a really good player after watching him play early at Southern Miss his freshman year..and probably would be better than Vander...pretty sure you will see DJ Newbill get drafted into the NBA...said Jake Thomas would get legitimate minutes when he transferred to Marquette..mocked by some for that prediction as well.  Said as early as 3 games into the season, that team was going to struggle if Derrick kept getting 30+...seems to have held true. Said Buzz was the real deal, and best thing to happen to MU since Al, 2 months into his first season at MU.

Gardner is not as good as Robert Jackson. Just about every other poster also said Mayo had game his freshman year (and some even before that). Newbill is not better than Blue and won't get drafted. Jake wanted to leave and only plays minutes by default but I suppose I do have to give you that one because he does play. The team is struggling but you can't say with certainty that it's because of Derrick's minutes. You were right about Buzz. Congrats on the track record!

Sorry I had to brag - usually don't do that unless totally provoked...but I know where your arguments come from - a place of knowing deep down inside the guy you've hitched your wagon to has been a major disappointment...and whatever stats you would try to build a case to support your guy...well...those stats just don't exist...

In the mind of most logical fans, Derrick has absolutely not been a "major disappointment." Derrick is what he is. He's a heady, back-up PG who's been thrust into a starting role out of necessity (i.e. he's the best PG on the roster). He's a good defender who takes care of the ball and is limited offensively. I don't think that any of the so-called "pro-Derrick" crowd has said anything different about him. Do I wish he was better? Of course! So does Buzz and so does Derrick.

And there was no backpeddle on the whole asinine "different games" argument you tried to throw out regarding MU playing Georgetown 5 weeks later.  Bottom line is, it is just a reflection of your insecurity over Derrick.  To suggest it isn't an apples to apples comparison when the same damn guys are playing the game (other than of course if you flip the PG minutes to where Derrick gets 30 and Dawson 10)  and being coached by the same head coaches - and only difference is the game is being played on MU's home court which should push things 5 points in our favor to start...there is zero reason why MU should lose to GTown at home.  I mean we are coming off our best 5 game stretch of the season, and by your standards and beliefs, Derrick has played brilliantly these last 5 games, right?

Every game is different. MU lost to Butler by 12 on the road but beat them at home by 7. Was homecourt worth 19 points in that situation? MU beat DePaul by 10 at home and 2 on the road. Was DePaul's homecourt only worth 8 points? MU beat Seton Hall by 1 at home and 11 on the road? How could that be when everything was equal except for Seton Hall's homecourt advantage? Oh yeah, every game is different!

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm in danger of violating the NEP, but I've been good so I think I've earned a relapse.

Buzz has seen what Dawson can do with a 30 minute run. He sees it every day IN PRACTICE.

My guess is that Dawson is getting schooled in practice. I mean come on, when has Buzz EVER resorted to using a PG for a full 40 minutes? He doesn't even trust Dawson to be a backup PG. Even the lowly Derrick Wilson managed to steal 12 minutes a game from Cadougan.

I agree that a coach may stick with a veteran too long, but I trust our coach enough to know that a PG who hasn't even earned the minutes to be Derrick's backup, is no where near being ready to be Derrick's replacement.

Great post!

I've decided to give up posting on Scoop for Lent and since I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow, I'm starting Lent today. Cheers all!

[avid1010]

all i know is everyone on this board jumped on the "defense wins championship" slogan (which imho is overly simplistic), and we have the best defensive team in the BEAST...so i'm just waiting to win a championship. 

[mu03eng]

Games   FG   FGA   %   3Pt FG   3Pt FGA   %   FT%   Def   Off   Total R   Asst   Steal   Block   Foul   TO   Total Points   35     2.9   5.7   51          0.3   0.9      30.3          2.2   0.6   2.8   3.4   2.5   0.2   1.8   2.0   7.8  27     2.1   3.9   41          0.0   0.5      7.7          2.5   1.3   3.7   4.1   1.3   0.0   2.4   1.5   5.6

Sorry, tables are really impossible on Scoop.  I redid the numbers on a per game basis.  Red scores a couple of points more, turns the ball over more but creates a few more possessions with his defense than does the blue player.  Blue is a much better rebounder, especially on the offensive end.  I'd take red but blue definitely has value in comparison right?

[melissasmooth]

In my view the player in red is MUCH better...I'd gladly take a guy who turns the ball over roughly 1 turnover more per game...in exchange for the additional points he generates, high FG percentage, respectable 3 pt FG percentage which ensures he needs to be guarded at all areas on the floor, and the resulting floor spacing that creates...

But go ahead with your point/rub...am quite curious to learn of the point you want to make..

Ners! I salute you for your participation and support of MU basketball. Nearly 4,000 words yesterday on MUScoop. I disagree with you quite a bit but you obviously love the school and program

[g0lden3agle]

Games   FG   FGA   %   3Pt FG   3Pt FGA   %   FT%   Def   Off   Total R   Asst   Steal   Block   Foul   TO   Total Points   35     2.9   5.7   51          0.3   0.9      30.3          2.2   0.6   2.8   3.4   2.5   0.2   1.8   2.0   7.8  27     2.1   3.9   41          0.0   0.5      7.7          2.5   1.3   3.7   4.1   1.3   0.0   2.4   1.5   5.6

Sorry, tables are really impossible on Scoop.  I redid the numbers on a per game basis.  Red scores a couple of points more, turns the ball over more but creates a few more possessions with his defense than does the blue player.  Blue is a much better rebounder, especially on the offensive end.  I'd take red but blue definitely has value in comparison right?

Honestly I'd need to have all these stats in per possession rather than per game to make a decision.  Right now I think red is the clear favorite and think per possession stats might flip it in his favor even more.

I WANT TO KNOW WHO RED IS!  I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME!

[NersEllenson]

Gardner is not as good as Robert Jackson. Just about every other poster also said Mayo had game his freshman year (and some even before that). Newbill is not better than Blue and won't get drafted. Jake wanted to leave and only plays minutes by default but I suppose I do have to give you that one because he does play. The team is struggling but you can't say with certainty that it's because of Derrick's minutes. You were right about Buzz. Congrats on the track record!

In the mind of most logical fans, Derrick has absolutely not been a "major disappointment." Derrick is what he is. He's a heady, back-up PG who's been thrust into a starting role out of necessity (i.e. he's the best PG on the roster). He's a good defender who takes care of the ball and is limited offensively. I don't think that any of the so-called "pro-Derrick" crowd has said anything different about him. Do I wish he was better? Of course! So does Buzz and so does Derrick.

Every game is different. MU lost to Butler by 12 on the road but beat them at home by 7. Was homecourt worth 19 points in that situation? MU beat DePaul by 10 at home and 2 on the road. Was DePaul's homecourt only worth 8 points? MU beat Seton Hall by 1 at home and 11 on the road? How could that be when everything was equal except for Seton Hall's homecourt advantage? Oh yeah, every game is different!

Nice post Merritt...good tone.  Agree to disagree on Robert Jackson being better than Gardner...its a nice luxury when you play with an all world player like D-Wade..nice to also have Diener and Novak around you too.  Agree to disagree on DJ Newbill as well...he's better than Blue...and believe you'll see him drafted into NBA.  Your statements on Derrick are certainly fair and ones I agree with - I just disagree that Dawson wouldn't be an upgrade now, or 2 months ago..ceiling is much higher and eventually talent wins out over experience.  As for the game examples you cite - fair points, we played in exact inverse with Seton Hall...were in full control till about 5 minutes left and then just tanked at home...whereas at Seton Hall, we were on the verge of getting taken out, but bowed up and won the game...and of course Derrick played big minutes in both those games. 

Enjoy your Scoop vacation, but feel free to come back and gloat if Derrick's play takes a nice step up..hopefully it does...as we'll need it to in order to make NCAA.

[GGGG]

I'm in danger of violating the NEP, but I've been good so I think I've earned a relapse.

Buzz has seen what Dawson can do with a 30 minute run. He sees it every day IN PRACTICE.

My guess is that Dawson is getting schooled in practice. I mean come on, when has Buzz EVER resorted to using a PG for a full 40 minutes? He doesn't even trust Dawson to be a backup PG. Even the lowly Derrick Wilson managed to steal 12 minutes a game from Cadougan.

Hmmmm...   

[NersEllenson]

I'm in danger of violating the NEP, but I've been good so I think I've earned a relapse.

Buzz has seen what Dawson can do with a 30 minute run. He sees it every day IN PRACTICE.

My guess is that Dawson is getting schooled in practice. I mean come on, when has Buzz EVER resorted to using a PG for a full 40 minutes? He doesn't even trust Dawson to be a backup PG. Even the lowly Derrick Wilson managed to steal 12 minutes a game from Cadougan.

I agree that a coach may stick with a veteran too long, but I trust our coach enough to know that a PG who hasn't even earned the minutes to be Derrick's backup, is no where near being ready to be Derrick's replacement.

Just FYI...teams don't run 30 minutes against each other in practice....you have a ton of situational work, scouting report incorporation - rarely will the team go up and down in a game like situation.  I don't dispute your point that there are many times where Derrick and Dawson go head to head...I'd imagine all the time in drill work, in the situational work - usually done in the halfcourt setting in practice.

If you triple Dawson's stats (based on him playing 10 minutes a game), his stat line is comparable to Derrick and he's a freshman...and most players can't put up stats playing sporadic minutes, getting occasional DNPs, and rarely seeing 20+ minutes.  Look at Mayo's production the last 5 games...its risen quite nicely with just a minute increase of 7 minutes per game.  Additionally, you cannot quantify the value a player that needs to be defended everywhere on the court brings to a team..as opposed to one who is sagged off 6-8' consistently.

Anyway...to suggest Dawson isn't close to ready is ridiculous...