Marquette Arts and Sciences dean search F-up

[reinko]

Gay marriage is not illegal in Wisconsin, it is impossible to get.  There is no crime, or punishment for gay people who get married in Wisconsin, because it is not recognized as an institution.

Polegamy (sp?), on the other hand is in fact illegal.  A person can marry multiple people (of the opposite sex), and iof caught can face legal consequences.

[Toodles1980]

So I just heard some relatively solid information about the outside forces surrounding this mess. There was apparently a meeting Friday with department chairs from around the university and the pressure to rescind appears to have come from Milwaukee's Arch Bishop. I know I'm new to posting on this board, and no one has any reason to trust me, but I figured anyone wanted to trust me, this is the information I have been told.

Allow me to flip your "French Revolution" question back at you for a moment.  Assume they hired him, then rescinded the offer for the same reasons they used to rescind the offer from Ms. O'Brien. Does anyone blink an eye? Does it make national news? Of course not, because he's a heterosexual male. Ms. O'Brien is a very intelligent woman, and I'm sure she knows, given her field of study and its open connection to her sexual preference, that she's a lightning rod for strong reactions in one direction or the other.  Marquette had to know this too, and if they were going to give her the job, they should have a) been fully supportive of her undertaking this position and b ) be ready to take on any and all critics that have a connection to the university.

Let me reiterate, I have no problem with Jodi O'Brien. And I have no problem with anyone Marquette hires, so long as they're qualified, passionate about the position, and willing to help build and promote what the school's mission statement stands for. In fact, I had an openly lesbian sociology professor earlier in my undergrad time here, and the class and content (some relating to sexuality in society) was very interesting. Diversity in that case definitely added to the value of the class.

But the search committee seems to have bit off more than they could chew with this fiasco, and maybe that means taking the search in that direction in the first place was a poor idea if they were never 100% committed.

The search committee did cross all their t's and dot all their i's. They then went to Father Wild, and told him "Here are our recommendations, we like one better, but she is gay and has some racy publications out, if that's a problem, we like this other guy too." Father Wild then approved the search committee's decision, approved an offer and then ordered the offer to be rescinded. Trust me when I tell you the search committee would re-offer this position to Dr. O'Brien tomorrow if they had the opportunity, they are 100% committed.

As to the rest of your post. If a white male were offered and rescinded an offer because the university disagreed with his particular positions, would it make national news? Yes. Here you go: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091302226.html (somewhat different because of nature of who the dean was, I admit, but to rescind the offer to a dean is nearly unheard of).
But your flip of the question is irrelevant, because the French Revolution isn't controversial, the real  flip would be, if a conservative white male academic had an offer rescinded from Northwestern because the candidate's anti-gay marriage views were contrary to the liking of the school, would there be outrage? Keep in mind, he has the job offer, and is looking for houses somewhere around Chicago.

[wyzgy]

Yeah, we should be just like Liberty... maybe we should start up our own "Creation Studies" program, replace those heathens over in Biology. 

https://www.liberty.edu/academics/index.cfm?PID=9821

Unlike Liberty, Marquette is committed to actually educating its students by providing an academically diverse campus and faculty rather than confirming what they already believed for their whole lives. 

I'm just interested, since you are so opposed to having homosexuals teaching classes that involve discussions about sexuality because it is 'beyond the boundaries of basic Catholicism", do you also oppose our having Jewish professors on campus, teaching classes about Jewish theology?  Buddhists and Taoists teaching Eastern Philosophy and theology?  What exactly do you think MU classrooms should look like?  I mean, should we just meld the entire A&S college into a big "Aquinas" class? 

whoa, dude-are you equating studies on methods of masturbation and physical relationships between transgender and lesbian to maximize their pleasure outlets to religious studies??  mu would be best to check your transcrips and find a better fit for your needs because i hope mu doesn't have what you are looking for in life-sheesh-God help us all

[GGGG]

So I just heard some relatively solid information about the outside forces surrounding this mess. There was apparently a meeting Friday with department chairs from around the university and the pressure to rescind appears to have come from Milwaukee's Arch Bishop. I know I'm new to posting on this board, and no one has any reason to trust me, but I figured anyone wanted to trust me, this is the information I have been told.

I have a question because I honestly don't know this.  What kind of pull does the Archbishop have over MU?  Is there any real power there, or is more "I can make your life hell" type stuff?

[Toodles1980]

I have a question because I honestly don't know this.  What kind of pull does the Archbishop have over MU?  Is there any real power there, or is more "I can make your life hell" type stuff?

I won't lie, that was my first question too, and the answer wasn't clear other than "I can make your life hell." It sounds like there may be some funding that comes from them as well, but that I was less clear on.

ETA: Complete and total speculation on my part here, but the Archbishop could have said he would recommend parishioners not donate to Marquette based on Dr. O'Brien and her position within the university. Couple that with any funding the archdiocese gives and I'd imagine it may make a noticeable dent in Marquette's donations at a time when they are recovering nicely from the . 

[GGGG]

I don't think the archdiocese gives them any money.  And if the archbishop told parishoners not to donate, I would double my donation tomorrow.  I doubt I would be the only one.

[martyconlonontherun]

As a priest, would Father Wild and others be jeopardizing their standing in the church if they went against the archbishop and went ahead with the hiring? That's what i would think with the archbishop having pull.

[Moonboots]

The search committee did cross all their t's and dot all their i's. They then went to Father Wild, and told him "Here are our recommendations, we like one better, but she is gay and has some racy publications out, if that's a problem, we like this other guy too." Father Wild then approved the search committee's decision, approved an offer and then ordered the offer to be rescinded. Trust me when I tell you the search committee would re-offer this position to Dr. O'Brien tomorrow if they had the opportunity, they are 100% committed.

As to the rest of your post. If a white male were offered and rescinded an offer because the university disagreed with his particular positions, would it make national news? Yes. Here you go: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091302226.html (somewhat different because of nature of who the dean was, I admit, but to rescind the offer to a dean is nearly unheard of).
But your flip of the question is irrelevant, because the French Revolution isn't controversial, the real  flip would be, if a conservative white male academic had an offer rescinded from Northwestern because the candidate's anti-gay marriage views were contrary to the liking of the school, would there be outrage? Keep in mind, he has the job offer, and is looking for houses somewhere around Chicago.

That's sort of how I meant the question, to imply that the French Revolution would not spark controversy. It's a safe hire. Safe isn't necessarily right, but if you go with the risky hire you better be prepared to dig your heals in when the onslaught comes. Not doing so was not only unfair to O'Brien but made them look wishy washy. If they knew they could be strong armed out of this, she never should have made it as far as she did in the race.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Gay marriage is not illegal in Wisconsin, it is impossible to get.  There is no crime, or punishment for gay people who get married in Wisconsin, because it is not recognized as an institution.

Polegamy (sp?), on the other hand is in fact illegal.  A person can marry multiple people (of the opposite sex), and iof caught can face legal consequences.

Marriage is a legal contract and because gays cannot marry, they cannot form a LEGAL bond. There is no LEGAL contract.  Polygamy is also NOT LEGAL.

That was my point.  You're looking at it from a criminal perspective.  I'm looking at it from a legal contract.  Neither options are legal. 

[shiloh26]

whoa, dude-are you equating studies on methods of masturbation and physical relationships between transgender and lesbian to maximize their pleasure outlets to religious studies??  mu would be best to check your transcrips and find a better fit for your needs because i hope mu doesn't have what you are looking for in life-sheesh-God help us all

Please wyzgy, don't get yourself all hot and bothered  .  You say you are against the hire because it is beyond basic Catholic teaching, but you are pretty selective about which anti-catholic teachings are ok at MU and which ones are not.  You've obviously confirmed that you have no principled way of looking at these issues. 

[wyzgy]

Please wyzgy, don't get yourself all hot and bothered   .  You say you are against the hire because it is beyond basic Catholic teaching, but you are pretty selective about which anti-catholic teachings are ok at MU and which ones are not.  You've obviously confirmed that you have no principled way of looking at these issues.  

shiloh, you've been sipping a little of grandpa's cough medicine are ya-what part of homosexual and religious studies don't you understand?  i was just showing you there is no relationship between the two.  furthermore, i don't believe mu students would be missing out on any diversity of curriculum by not presenting opportunities to take classes on the most preferred positions enjoyed by two transgendered lesbians with three previously married, but discovered late in life to be homos.  you can go to san francisco and walk down the street and see that for free or go to univ. of seattle i guess.  personally, i'd rather have don't ask, don't tell.  coach mitchel ..., but i haven't heard, seen and i don't ask-therefore, i don't care what she does when the blinds get pulled down as long as it's legal.  you want principled-homosexuality is a SIN in the eyes of the catholic church and whether you want to believe it or not-people do take that seriously-sultan said he would double his donation to make up for the arch bishops possible involvement here-.  well you better triple it cause i might be about saving myself a tax deduction here,  it'll have to go some where else-it's called voting with your wallet-what's taking fr. wild so long to pack his bags-i'd call him the jim doyle of univ. presidents.  nothing like leaving one last stink bomb on your way out-how about a courtesy flush please

ya know how to tell a macho lesbian from a more femine type....she/he kick-starts her play toy  bwahahahahahhahah chuckle chuckle hee hee

[shiloh26]

you want principled-homosexuality is a SIN in the eyes of the catholic church and whether you want to believe it or not-people do take that seriously-

Super, and its also a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church to refuse Jesus Christ as your savior... soooo, why the Jewish and Buddhist professors who actually teach on that subject matter, and not a gay dean who is just an administrator?  You have no principled way to distinguish them, and you've proven so once again.  

[mu_hilltopper]

Guys - just a reminder, we've done pretty well keeping the conversation elevated, minus a few slips.  Please keep the language and slang solidly out of the grey zone.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

As a priest, would Father Wild and others be jeopardizing their standing in the church if they went against the archbishop and went ahead with the hiring? That's what i would think with the archbishop having pull.

Pretty sure that the Jesuits report to their superiors in the Jesuit hierarchy.  The Wisconsin Province oversees the MU Jesuits. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

9 pages and no one has asked the most important question: 

Rosie O'Donnell lesbian or lipstick lesbian?   

[foreverwarriors]

9 pages and no one has asked the most important question:  

Rosie O'Donnell lesbian or lipstick lesbian?  

new +1

this is even better than the prep school question...

[MUMBA]

a few more considerations...

- Marquette did dot their i's and cross their t's.  O'Brien was first a candidate in 2008.  She was again a candidate when they re-opened the search in 2009.  The University had full visibility to her research interests.  After all the extensive search, she was the clear leader.  

- The archdiocese, Rome, donors, parents, etc may not have direct influence on the decision, but a combination of their influences (?) seems to have added up.  How else can the about face be explained?

- Without any more than rumors about donors ad diocese pressure to explain the about face, the decision to rescind has the appearance of discrimination of the surface.  That decimates the spirit of students, faculty, and alum who are gay (as well as their advocates).

- Interesting to note that this year marks the 100 year anniversary of women at Marquette.  The University President at the time openly defied diocese orders when admitting women.  He was reassigned to a Jesuit University in Ohio where he promptly defied orders again and admitted women there too.  It took a lot of courage to stand up to pressure then as it does now.  

- For all the posts about strict adherence to Catholic teachings, it's interesting to note that Father Wild acknowledged his own disagreement the Church's interpretations during his speech at the Pere Marquette dinner.  

- I agree with the mod's comment.  Let's keep snarky comments to a minimum.

[ChicosBailBonds]

a few more considerations...

- Marquette did dot their i's and cross their t's.  O'Brien was first a candidate in 2008.  She was again a candidate when they re-opened the search in 2009.  The University had full visibility to her research interests.  After all the extensive search, she was the clear leader.  

- The archdiocese, Rome, donors, parents, etc may not have direct influence on the decision, but a combination of their influences (?) seems to have added up.  How else can the about face be explained?

- Without any more than rumors about donors ad diocese pressure to explain the about face, the decision to rescind has the appearance of discrimination of the surface.  That decimates the spirit of students, faculty, and alum who are gay (as well as their advocates).

- Interesting to note that this year marks the 100 year anniversary of women at Marquette.  The University President at the time openly defied diocese orders when admitting women.  He was reassigned to a Jesuit University in Ohio where he promptly defied orders again and admitted women there too.  It took a lot of courage to stand up to pressure then as it does now.  

- For all the posts about strict adherence to Catholic teachings, it's interesting to note that Father Wild acknowledged his own disagreement the Church's interpretations during his speech at the Pere Marquette dinner.  

- I agree with the mod's comment.  Let's keep snarky comments to a minimum.

That's wonderful that Father Wild noted his own disagreements, but that doesn't really matter in the end.  He's not the Pope, he's also not setting religious dogma.  We are an institution of higher learning with Academic freedoms, but we are first and foremost a Catholic institution.  One has an expectation as a prospective student, alum, etc, that a Catholic institution at its core will follow Catholic teachings.  It's one thing to have Dan Mcguire running around saying abortion is just grand and the life of an unborn baby is worthless.  It's quite another to put someone in a very serious leadership position with the potential to influence, set policy, etc, on subjects that are also completely opposite of Catholic teachings.

[wyzgy]

That's wonderful that Father Wild noted his own disagreements, but that doesn't really matter in the end.  He's not the Pope, he's also not setting religious dogma.  We are an institution of higher learning with Academic freedoms, but we are first and foremost a Catholic institution.  One has an expectation as a prospective student, alum, etc, that a Catholic institution at its core will follow Catholic teachings.  It's one thing to have Dan Mcguire running around saying abortion is just grand and the life of an unborn baby is worthless.  It's quite another to put someone in a very serious leadership position with the potential to influence, set policy, etc, on subjects that are also completely opposite of Catholic teachings.

chico-you are the MAN !!  5-stars smiley face thumbs up, a throw down in their face dog that was takin it yard !! now watch out for the tsunami of liberal beat down

[MUMBA]

Let me clarify. Fr Wild is a Catholic in a position of power and influence (far more more power and influence than a dean).  He stands up in front of faculty and says that the church's teachings are deeply flawed.  Point is - there's dissent on Church teachings at his level too.

[GGGG]

That's wonderful that Father Wild noted his own disagreements, but that doesn't really matter in the end.  He's not the Pope, he's also not setting religious dogma.  We are an institution of higher learning with Academic freedoms, but we are first and foremost a Catholic institution.  One has an expectation as a prospective student, alum, etc, that a Catholic institution at its core will follow Catholic teachings.  It's one thing to have Dan Mcguire running around saying abortion is just grand and the life of an unborn baby is worthless.  It's quite another to put someone in a very serious leadership position with the potential to influence, set policy, etc, on subjects that are also completely opposite of Catholic teachings.

Chicos...what is a dean going to do that "sets policy...on subjects that are completely opposite of Catholic teachings?"  I mean, Fr. Wild basically said that he has a problem with the Vatican's position, and you aren't calling for his removal.  Unlike a pre-professional college, an Arts & Science dean basically herds cats, works on general cirriculum issues, etc.  She would have been in no position to have any influence in any sort of Catholic teaching.

Between this and your "if you allow homosexual marriage, we're gonna have to allow polygamy," your position seems to be entirely based on fear.

[ChicosBailBonds]

9 pages and no one has asked the most important question: 

Rosie O'Donnell lesbian or lipstick lesbian?   

You can ask the same question tomorrow about the POTUS SCOTUS nomination.  I swear it's Michael Myers on a drinking binge.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos...what is a dean going to do that "sets policy...on subjects that are completely opposite of Catholic teachings?"  I mean, Fr. Wild basically said that he has a problem with the Vatican's position, and you aren't calling for his removal.  Unlike a pre-professional college, an Arts & Science dean basically herds cats, works on general cirriculum issues, etc.  She would have been in no position to have any influence in any sort of Catholic teaching.

Between this and your "if you allow homosexual marriage, we're gonna have to allow polygamy," your position seems to be entirely based on fear.

Fear?  Hardly.  How can you make marriage legal for one group and not another?  Pretty simple question, no one seems to ever be able to answer it for me.  Marriage is between a man and a woman, some people want to change it to allow for gays to marriage.  Well if you do that, why shouldn't you allow it to be changed in other ways to bring in other views on marriage?  Why are only SOME other forms ok and not all?  Sounds awfully intolerant that only ONE additional way should be accepted.

So sorry Sultan, fear isn't it at all.  It's the hypocrisy in it all that bothers me.

As for policies, etc, I think you greatly undervalue what someone in that position can do.  If the position was simply to herd cats, then why on earth are we worried about scholarship, background, research, publishing acumen, etc, in these candidates?  Simple, because it's a bit more than "herding cats" and you know it.

 

[Ari Gold]

You can ask the same question tomorrow about the POTUS SCOTUS nomination.  I swear it's Michael Myers on a drinking binge.

edit: we do not need that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't get me wrong Ari, I could not care less what someone does in the bedroom.  It's private, people should be able to do what they want as long as they are consenting adults.

What bothers me the hypocrisy from the "tolerance" bunch.  In their view, you are intolerant if you are unwilling to accept change in tradition, etc.  What is hilarious about this is that this same group of tolerance preachers have NO TOLERANCE toward those that don't want those changes.  As if their beliefs, their thoughts don't count.  These people must despise the Amish, the Quakers, etc....and certainly anyone that believes change for the sake of change may not be the right choice.

You see, tolerance is a one way street which is hypocritical as hell.