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Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 90775 times)

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2017, 07:50:39 PM »
Jiga-

Isn't it possible that it's not this big populist backlash and is more just a way to pay for things (sometimes illegal activity) that is untraceable? That in itself would provide value

I'm not sure what you are asking.  Yes, the point of it is it is not traceable.  It is considered a virtue because it allows people to hide wealth from corrupt and immoral governments (which is why it is so popular in China). 


forgetful

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2017, 07:58:29 PM »
When bitcoin was created in the original (first) blockchain in 2009, it contained 21 million coins.  How does one get a coin?  Two ways.  One can "mine" a coin.  How?  You download and run an algo on your computer and when it finishes, you get a coin.  But the next coin requires a slightly longer and more complicated algo.  Currently, 16.8 million of the 21 million coins have been mined.   Now the algo is very long and overly complicated.  You need serious hardware and a lot of power.  Once the 21millionth coin is mined, that is all there is.

Another way is to buy one on an exchange.  Dozens of them exist and Gdax is the largest in the US (it's not even in the top 6 worldwide).  70% of the trading and all the big exchanges are in Asia.


Many thanks.  What you are saying would imply that the "dire" articles I read are not nearly as "dire" as they tried to make them out to be. 

Out of curiosity, at what point does it become reasonable to use the computing power on some the world's supercomputers to just get coins?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 10:20:49 PM by forgetful »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2017, 10:04:10 PM »
When bitcoin was created in the original (first) blockchain in 2009, it contained 21 million coins.  How does one get a coin?  Two ways.  One can "mine" a coin.  How?  You download and run an algo on your computer and when it finishes, you get a coin.  But the next coin requires a slightly longer and more complicated algo.  Currently, 16.8 million of the 21 million coins have been mined.   Now the algo is very long and overly complicated.  You need serious hardware and a lot of power.  Once the 21millionth coin is mined, that is all there is.

Another way is to buy one on an exchange.  Dozens of them exist and Gdax is the largest in the US (it's not even in the top 6 worldwide).  70% of the trading and all the big exchanges are in Asia.



Many thanks.  What you are saying would imply that the "dire" articles I read are not nearly as "dire" as they tried to make them out to be. 

Out of curiosity, at what point does it become reasonable to use the computing power on some the world's supercomputers to just get coins?

When/if the price of bitcoin gets higher enough to make it profitable.  Don’t know the economics to give a number.

But with $70 billion still left to be mined (4.3 million coins left of the 21 million to be mined at  $16,000), then one might ask when the Governemnt will jump in and use their might and power to start mining for the federal treasury.

Right now anyone that brings it up is a kook, but at some point the money potential is too overwhelming.  When/if they do, they defacto legitimize bitcoin and all talk of banning it goes out the window (because banning it tries to make the price go to zero and that us the last thing you want to do to your asset.)

Here is a story today about a government that might be thinking of legitimizes bitcoin
https://www.coindesk.com/bulgarian-government-sitting-3-billion-bitcoin/
According to a press release dated May 19 from the Southeast European Law Enforcement Center (SELEC), a regional organization comprised of 12 member states including Bulgaria, a total of 213,519 bitcoins were seized that month. Twenty-three Bulgarian nationals were arrested during the operation, and officials said at the time that the arrests and subsequent asset seizures followed an investigation into an alleged customs fraud scam.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 10:05:57 PM by 1.21 Jigawatts »

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2017, 10:44:26 PM »
Congrats, bitcoin!

You know you've arrived as a currency when hackers are stealing $70 million worth of you!

http://time.com/money/5053744/hackers-steal-bitcoin-nicehash/
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2017, 08:28:29 AM »
Congrats, bitcoin!

You know you've arrived as a currency when hackers are stealing $70 million worth of you!

http://time.com/money/5053744/hackers-steal-bitcoin-nicehash/

Based in Slovenia, NiceHash matches people in need of computer-processing power to “mine” cryptocurrencies with people who have power to spare. Payment is made to miners in bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as an incentive for their processing and verifying transactions through complex algorithms.

This is a mining operation, as explained above.  There are thousands of these types of operations (as noted above, collectively they consume more power than the country of Ireland).  As note the country of origin, all the big ones are in far-flung places.

(why is the country of origin import, because most of these hacks come from the old fashion way, finding an employee and either paying them, or threatening them, into giving you their log-in credentials.  In the US try this and the FBI and Home Land Security jump in.  But in a country like Slovenia and you have to pay the police to protect you, so it is easier to give them what they want or sell them your credentials ... paid in bitcoin!)
-------------

I point this out because bitcoin is not what you think it is, driven by a bunch of hipsters in a San Fran Starbucks. Sure they have some of that.  But what really drives it is Asians (read Chinese) looking for ways to move their money without it being tracked by their repressive regimes and the miners are all in third-world, or near third-world countries taxing their power grids.

This is important because if cryptos are going to be the world currency of choice, replacing the dollar, you would think getting a bunch of people in third world countries to accept it would be the hard part.  Actually, it is not because in Bulgaria (story above), Slovenia, China, Kenya and even Miramar (the old Burma), they have better mobile phones and much better mobile phone networks in than the United States.  They are all comfortable having their life savings on an electric wallet.  Their very existence is on their phone, more so that Americans.

The skeptics are ... well ... the demographic on this board.  That would be Americans that graduated from (or are currently going to) a well a well respected American University that are successful enough to spend their time here.

And that is the dilemma for Americans.  Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, you are probably not used to the prices in your store, or products you buy, fluctuate day to day based on the dollar's exchange rate. You probably cannot even name the dollar's exchange rate.  But, if cryptos are going to become the new world currency, the risk is your stock portfolio and life savings are going to get greatly devalued because they are in the wrong currency (dollars and not cryptos).  Again, there is a non-trivial change this never happens and all this goes to zero.

On the other hand, if you buy into this and it does fail, you lose everything.  This is what makes this a hard choice.

-----------

PS

The second largest cryptocurrency is Ethereum.  It is up almost 30% today (as I write) and has a market capitalization of more than $50 billion (versus $275 billion for bitcoin).  Ether (as the coins or tokens are called) is what I have the majority of my cryptos in because its structure is much better suited to become a real currency (medium of exchange) whereas, as I noted above, bitcoin is better suited as a store of value, like gold. (own some bitcoin too)

« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 08:39:54 AM by 1.21 Jigawatts »

forgetful

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2017, 09:16:53 AM »
Based in Slovenia, NiceHash matches people in need of computer-processing power to “mine” cryptocurrencies with people who have power to spare. Payment is made to miners in bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as an incentive for their processing and verifying transactions through complex algorithms.

This is a mining operation, as explained above.  There are thousands of these types of operations (as noted above, collectively they consume more power than the country of Ireland).  As note the country of origin, all the big ones are in far-flung places.

(why is the country of origin import, because most of these hacks come from the old fashion way, finding an employee and either paying them, or threatening them, into giving you their log-in credentials.  In the US try this and the FBI and Home Land Security jump in.  But in a country like Slovenia and you have to pay the police to protect you, so it is easier to give them what they want or sell them your credentials ... paid in bitcoin!)
-------------

I point this out because bitcoin is not what you think it is, driven by a bunch of hipsters in a San Fran Starbucks. Sure they have some of that.  But what really drives it is Asians (read Chinese) looking for ways to move their money without it being tracked by their repressive regimes and the miners are all in third-world, or near third-world countries taxing their power grids.

This is important because if cryptos are going to be the world currency of choice, replacing the dollar, you would think getting a bunch of people in third world countries to accept it would be the hard part.  Actually, it is not because in Bulgaria (story above), Slovenia, China, Kenya and even Miramar (the old Burma), they have better mobile phones and much better mobile phone networks in than the United States.  They are all comfortable having their life savings on an electric wallet.  Their very existence is on their phone, more so that Americans.

The skeptics are ... well ... the demographic on this board.  That would be Americans that graduated from (or are currently going to) a well a well respected American University that are successful enough to spend their time here.

And that is the dilemma for Americans.  Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, you are probably not used to the prices in your store, or products you buy, fluctuate day to day based on the dollar's exchange rate. You probably cannot even name the dollar's exchange rate.  But, if cryptos are going to become the new world currency, the risk is your stock portfolio and life savings are going to get greatly devalued because they are in the wrong currency (dollars and not cryptos).  Again, there is a non-trivial change this never happens and all this goes to zero.

On the other hand, if you buy into this and it does fail, you lose everything.  This is what makes this a hard choice.

-----------

PS

The second largest cryptocurrency is Ethereum.  It is up almost 30% today (as I write) and has a market capitalization of more than $50 billion (versus $275 billion for bitcoin).  Ether (as the coins or tokens are called) is what I have the majority of my cryptos in because its structure is much better suited to become a real currency (medium of exchange) whereas, as I noted above, bitcoin is better suited as a store of value, like gold. (own some bitcoin too)

Appreciate all the great info you are providing.  As I said before, I do not know a lot about this area, largely because I have not had a lot of time to look into new things since cryptos have become more popular.

But I do not see how cryptos are a threat to the dollar in any way.  The problem with cryptos are that they are predominantly associated with two things, speculation (gambling) and crime.  The latter being the bigger problem.  Bitcoin will never separate itself from its criminal association.

If a crypto takes over currency markets, it will be a new crypto constructed by a western (or Chinese) government.  The latter will not happen for a long long time.  China would have the biggest motive to do so, but it would cripple their ability to manipulate the currency market...so long term crypto's cannot succeed in my opinion.  They will continue to be an investing novelty largely dominated by the fact that the top 5% around the world have accumulated so much wealth that they have nothing else to do with it than play speculation games. 

WarriorDad

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2017, 10:31:27 AM »
My own experience.  I have mined bitcoins for a few years.  It is expensive on electricity, but have it running in the background.  I have also purchased some (less than $5k) and currently it looks very nice, but the bottom can drop out whenever.  Has to be money you feel you can set on fire and not lose a bit of sleep.

Some articles suggest it will go to $100K by 2020.  Others believe it is a ponzi scheme.  For me it is a hobby, though I find myself checking the price 20 times more often then I both with any of my traditional stocks or funds. 
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
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Eldon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2017, 11:37:11 AM »
Based in Slovenia, NiceHash matches people in need of computer-processing power to “mine” cryptocurrencies with people who have power to spare. Payment is made to miners in bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as an incentive for their processing and verifying transactions through complex algorithms.

This is a mining operation, as explained above.  There are thousands of these types of operations (as noted above, collectively they consume more power than the country of Ireland).  As note the country of origin, all the big ones are in far-flung places.

(why is the country of origin import, because most of these hacks come from the old fashion way, finding an employee and either paying them, or threatening them, into giving you their log-in credentials.  In the US try this and the FBI and Home Land Security jump in.  But in a country like Slovenia and you have to pay the police to protect you, so it is easier to give them what they want or sell them your credentials ... paid in bitcoin!)
-------------

I point this out because bitcoin is not what you think it is, driven by a bunch of hipsters in a San Fran Starbucks. Sure they have some of that.  But what really drives it is Asians (read Chinese) looking for ways to move their money without it being tracked by their repressive regimes and the miners are all in third-world, or near third-world countries taxing their power grids.

This is important because if cryptos are going to be the world currency of choice, replacing the dollar, you would think getting a bunch of people in third world countries to accept it would be the hard part.  Actually, it is not because in Bulgaria (story above), Slovenia, China, Kenya and even Miramar (the old Burma), they have better mobile phones and much better mobile phone networks in than the United States.  They are all comfortable having their life savings on an electric wallet.  Their very existence is on their phone, more so that Americans.

The skeptics are ... well ... the demographic on this board.  That would be Americans that graduated from (or are currently going to) a well a well respected American University that are successful enough to spend their time here.

And that is the dilemma for Americans.  Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, you are probably not used to the prices in your store, or products you buy, fluctuate day to day based on the dollar's exchange rate. You probably cannot even name the dollar's exchange rate.  But, if cryptos are going to become the new world currency, the risk is your stock portfolio and life savings are going to get greatly devalued because they are in the wrong currency (dollars and not cryptos).  Again, there is a non-trivial change this never happens and all this goes to zero.

On the other hand, if you buy into this and it does fail, you lose everything.  This is what makes this a hard choice.

-----------

PS

The second largest cryptocurrency is Ethereum.  It is up almost 30% today (as I write) and has a market capitalization of more than $50 billion (versus $275 billion for bitcoin).  Ether (as the coins or tokens are called) is what I have the majority of my cryptos in because its structure is much better suited to become a real currency (medium of exchange) whereas, as I noted above, bitcoin is better suited as a store of value, like gold. (own some bitcoin too)

What is the rate of growth of Ether coins (money supply)?  Is it some hard-and-fast rule, e.g., say, 2% per year?  If so, can that ever change?

jesmu84

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2017, 03:20:27 PM »
My own experience.  I have mined bitcoins for a few years.  It is expensive on electricity, but have it running in the background.  I have also purchased some (less than $5k) and currently it looks very nice, but the bottom can drop out whenever.  Has to be money you feel you can set on fire and not lose a bit of sleep.

Some articles suggest it will go to $100K by 2020.  Others believe it is a ponzi scheme.  For me it is a hobby, though I find myself checking the price 20 times more often then I both with any of my traditional stocks or funds.

Can this be done with a typical laptop? Say, a high end gaming laptop that I no longer really game with? I realize that I would be unlikely to make much of a dent on my own, but could I get anything?

#UnleashSean

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2017, 03:51:04 PM »
Can this be done with a typical laptop? Say, a high end gaming laptop that I no longer really game with? I realize that I would be unlikely to make much of a dent on my own, but could I get anything?

Whats the gpu on it?

WarriorDad

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2017, 05:43:59 PM »
Can this be done with a typical laptop? Say, a high end gaming laptop that I no longer really game with? I realize that I would be unlikely to make much of a dent on my own, but could I get anything?

Short answer is yes, but it will be low volumes of mining and the ROI on the electricity will put you in the red most likely.

This piece does a good job of explaining the basics, how much electricity and potential profitability, but impossible to predict the actual outcomes.

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-mining-profitable-beginners-explanation/
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
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Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2017, 06:07:17 PM »
Can this be done with a typical laptop? Say, a high end gaming laptop that I no longer really game with? I realize that I would be unlikely to make much of a dent on my own, but could I get anything?

It will not be profitable, but yes, you can.

I'll put this youtube playlist here for anyone else that is looking for more information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1si5ZWLgy0&list=PLPQwGV1aLnTuN6kdNWlElfr2tzigB9Nnj

YoungMUFan4

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2017, 07:41:51 PM »
Any of you guys familiar with Ripple?  If so, thoughts on it?

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2017, 11:16:50 PM »
Any of you guys familiar with Ripple?  If so, thoughts on it?

I like the price of Ripple, but it takes a lot of it to get a person drunk.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Eldon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2017, 08:10:19 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/6MnQJFEVY7s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/6MnQJFEVY7s</a>

My man right here is straight fire.

CubillanSandwich

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2017, 09:28:32 PM »
Is there a simple process to convert Bitcoin to USD?  I don't personally own any, but curious to understand the mechanism if anyone has experience. 

Benny B

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2017, 08:19:16 AM »
Is there a simple process to convert Bitcoin to USD?  I don't personally own any, but curious to understand the mechanism if anyone has experience.

No.  Actually, there’s no simple process to convert Bitcoin to any fiat currency anywhere, which is the big reason the value is skyrocketing.  But in the US, be forewarned that a Bitcoin sell order simply puts you into a queue and unlike stocks and most other securities which will execute almost instantaneously, and later settle, at a market price, Bitcoin can take up to 30 days (or more) to settle because of the nature of a blockchain transaction.  Here’s the kicker... your sell order may execute at $16,000 today but the broker doesn’t settle for another week by which time the price has dropped to $15,000.  Guess which amount the broker is going to deposit in your account. 

Oh yeah, did I mention the part about being flagged by the DOJ and IRS the moment you attempt to sell?  You can buy and hold Bitcoin anonymously, but contrary to popular belief, you can’t sell anonymously.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »
No.  Actually, there’s no simple process to convert Bitcoin to any fiat currency anywhere, which is the big reason the value is skyrocketing.  But in the US, be forewarned that a Bitcoin sell order simply puts you into a queue and unlike stocks and most other securities which will execute almost instantaneously, and later settle, at a market price, Bitcoin can take up to 30 days (or more) to settle because of the nature of a blockchain transaction.  Here’s the kicker... your sell order may execute at $16,000 today but the broker doesn’t settle for another week by which time the price has dropped to $15,000.  Guess which amount the broker is going to deposit in your account. 

Oh yeah, did I mention the part about being flagged by the DOJ and IRS the moment you attempt to sell?  You can buy and hold Bitcoin anonymously, but contrary to popular belief, you can’t sell anonymously.

simply not true

CubillanSandwich

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2017, 04:44:47 PM »
No.  Actually, there’s no simple process to convert Bitcoin to any fiat currency anywhere, which is the big reason the value is skyrocketing.  But in the US, be forewarned that a Bitcoin sell order simply puts you into a queue and unlike stocks and most other securities which will execute almost instantaneously, and later settle, at a market price, Bitcoin can take up to 30 days (or more) to settle because of the nature of a blockchain transaction.  Here’s the kicker... your sell order may execute at $16,000 today but the broker doesn’t settle for another week by which time the price has dropped to $15,000.  Guess which amount the broker is going to deposit in your account. 

Oh yeah, did I mention the part about being flagged by the DOJ and IRS the moment you attempt to sell?  You can buy and hold Bitcoin anonymously, but contrary to popular belief, you can’t sell anonymously.

Thanks for the reply.  The concept is definitely very interesting.  Looks like there is a debit card service through BitPay that operates as a Visa gift card.  Still not sold either way, but this could play a major role in future cyber Mondays.

Eldon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2017, 08:58:16 PM »
For anyone interested

https://www.coursera.org/learn/cryptocurrency

Class starts on 12/25

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2017, 08:04:07 AM »
The Force Behind Bitcoin’s Meteoric Rise: Millions of Asian Investors
Retail investors, mostly in Asia, are pushing the price of bitcoin to new heights

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-force-behind-bitcoins-meteoric-rise-millions-of-asian-investors-1513074750

Various forces have stoked Asia’s bitcoin fever. While individual wealth has been growing in recent years, particularly in China and South Korea, lucrative investment opportunities can be hard to find, with property markets expensive and stock markets fully valued.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that Asians are more comfortable with the concept of virtual currencies such as bitcoin, particularly younger people who have grown up in a world of e-commerce and mobile payments.

China last year made up the bulk of trading volume before regulators clamped down. But by the end of November, Japan, South Korea and Vietnam accounted for nearly 80% of bitcoin trading activity globally, according to research firm CryptoCompare, while U.S. trading was about one-fifth of the volume. In the past few weeks, the U.S. share of the overall total has increased.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2017, 09:36:10 AM »
The Force Behind Bitcoin’s Meteoric Rise: Millions of Asian Investors
Retail investors, mostly in Asia, are pushing the price of bitcoin to new heights

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-force-behind-bitcoins-meteoric-rise-millions-of-asian-investors-1513074750

Various forces have stoked Asia’s bitcoin fever. While individual wealth has been growing in recent years, particularly in China and South Korea, lucrative investment opportunities can be hard to find, with property markets expensive and stock markets fully valued.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that Asians are more comfortable with the concept of virtual currencies such as bitcoin, particularly younger people who have grown up in a world of e-commerce and mobile payments.

China last year made up the bulk of trading volume before regulators clamped down. But by the end of November, Japan, South Korea and Vietnam accounted for nearly 80% of bitcoin trading activity globally, according to research firm CryptoCompare, while U.S. trading was about one-fifth of the volume. In the past few weeks, the U.S. share of the overall total has increased.


https://twitter.com/joyce/status/940431742208376832

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2017, 10:05:39 AM »
https://twitter.com/joyce/status/940431742208376832

Yes, and away from bitcoin it is a another wild day in crypto land.

Litecoin is up more than 100% today!  It was $94 dollars on Dec 8, it topped $400 today.  (It was under $4 in March 100x rise in 9 months).

Ether was $400 on December 8, hit $640 this morning, up 30% today (was $7 in Janaury).  Ether is now more than $60 billion.

Korea which is a big player in this space walked back from banning it.  No doubt the amount of crypto money in the Korean economy/political system played a role.  This is helping the non-bitcoin crypto surge.

Next up in Russia.  They are talking about banning it.  They won’t.  It will be like Korea, they are just shaking down the cryptos for bribes.


Goose

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2017, 11:15:23 AM »
Keep an eye Ripple!!

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2017, 07:07:57 PM »
Keep an eye Ripple!!

Up 50% since you wrote it earlier today!!!

You win the anti-Apple award

 

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