Another shooting

[muwarrior69]

I'm sure they have. Make them bigger. Offer more. Make it a part of a nationwide effort. While some people hold that our views on guns will never change, I don't believe that. I think with every mass shooting, more and more moderates are starting to believe that gun control is the answer to gun violence. The extremes may be getting more polarized, but I think the moderates on this topic are starting to shift in favor of gun control.

They had a buyback in Trenton a few years ago. What they discovered was those who sold their guns used the money to get a better gun.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Umm.  Just watched the first episode of Punisher.  I have to disagree.

I still have to get through the seasons of Luke Cage, Iron Fist (which I heard stinks), and the Defenders before I make it to the Punisher. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

When did locker room talk become a crime.  (if he actually did it, or tried, it would be.  Has any actress ever come out and claim he did, or tried?)

Regarding the Miss Universe Locker Room, was he the only Man that did that?  I thought the locker rooms were like Grand Central during those pageants and many did that (stagehands, other producers etc.)

Again ... I'm not defending Trump, I asking Jockey (latest of numerous falsehoods) that Trump to show where Trump is an admitted sexual criminal.  Not true.

I never said locker room talk was a crime. I said if the actions he had at one point time claimed to have committed were true, then they could be considered sex crimes.

On the Miss Universe thing, I have no idea what the dressing room situation is like. Judging by the reactions of the contestants, it seems like it was shocking to them that a man was in there. I also am not familiar with the contest. Are all the girls of age in those things? If not, that's a whole extra layer of inappropriate. I would have thought the party that is so up in arms about where transgendered individuals use the bathroom would be extra outraged about men in women's dressing rooms.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Failure of gov't if you look at it.

In the Texas shooting the laws were in place to prevent him from buying a gun because he was dishonorably discharged, but the gov't screwed up by not putting him into the database to prevent it.  So the cure is to penalize all of us that are legally using guns the correct way?

Laws were in place, but failed.  The same is true in California where the killer stabbed someone earlier this year and was not able to buy guns. Instead, he built his own.  The solution is to penalize the 99.9999% of us that respect people, guns, practice safety?

For those of us that own guns we are deeply troubled by the crazies that commit crimes, but when we hear someone say we have to do more what does more mean?  What we already do doesn't work because gov't fails at enforcement.  Which is why so many of us believe the true intentions is total ban, which the gun control lobby denies, but is very much on their minds. Boston Globe opined to confiscate all guns. https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/11/10/hand-over-your-weapons/6IxJLanMKGak7RvCLipwbN/story.html     

And yes, thoughts and prayers are never a bad thing.  The failure of govt to enact the laws passed should not penalize others through additional gov't action that they will also fail at.  Only law abiding people are hurt by this.

This is part of the problem. Who cares if the true intention is a total ban? When they propose a total ban, vote it down. In the meantime, taking some small steps towards compromise could save a lot of lives. Passing some increased gun control now doesn't mean that you have to support a gun ban later.

It doesn't have to be status quo or total gun ban. There are several places in the middel.

[Jockey]

When did locker room talk become a crime.  (if he actually did it, or tried, it would be.  Has any actress ever come out and claim he did, or tried?)

Regarding the Miss Universe Locker Room, was he the only Man that did that?  I thought the locker rooms were like Grand Central during those pageants and many did that (stagehands, other producers etc.)

Again ... I'm not defending Trump, I asking Jockey (latest of numerous falsehoods) that Trump to show where Trump is an admitted sexual criminal.  Not true.

16 women, so far.

You are simply a hypocritical blowhard.

[Tugg Speedman]

16 women, so far.

You are simply a hypocritical blowhard.

That doesn't make him and admitted sexual criminal.

It makes him a person with a lot of allegations.

[Tugg Speedman]

This is part of the problem. Who cares if the true intention is a total ban? When they propose a total ban, vote it down. In the meantime, taking some small steps towards compromise could save a lot of lives. Passing some increased gun control now doesn't mean that you have to support a gun ban later.

It doesn't have to be status quo or total gun ban. There are several places in the middle.

Stop with the platitudes.  What are the "several places in the middle?"  Name them?

[Hards Alumni]

When did locker room talk become a crime.  (if he actually did it, or tried, it would be.  Has any actress ever come out and claim he did, or tried?)

Regarding the Miss Universe Locker Room, was he the only Man that did that?  I thought the locker rooms were like Grand Central during those pageants and many did that (stagehands, other producers etc.)

Again ... I'm not defending Trump, I asking Jockey (latest of numerous falsehoods) that Trump to show where Trump is an admitted sexual criminal.  Not true.

The mental gymnastics you are going through here are astounding.  If this was considered an Olympic event, you'd have the gold medal locked up, truly.

[MU82]

Remember the concession that the NRA surprisingly made after LV - they were advocating that "bump stocks" be made illegal?

After a day or two of congresspeople nodding their heads ... crickets.

Still no law against bump stocks.

Still no law closing the gun-show loophole.

Still no law requiring universal background checks, which are supported by a huge majority of Americans - even a majority of NRA members! - but our legislators don't have the backbones for it.

Still no law preventing gun sales to those on the no-fly list and terrorist watch list.

So there you have a few recommendations that I and other Scoopers have made previously, regulations that have the wide support of our fellow Americans.

Would they stop all or most or many shootings? Probably not. But if they stop 100 or 50 or a dozen a year, they're not worth it? What happened to "all life is precious"?

What's funny (not really; it's sad) is that the same people who argue that none of these moderate gun regulations would save lives will go to the mat defending the Muslim ban even though such a ban would not have prevented any of the terrorist attacks so far.

[Hards Alumni]

16 women, so far.

You are simply a hypocritical blowhard.

17, actually.

https://qz.com/1130324/17-women-have-accused-donald-trump-of-sexual-assault-or-misconduct-its-time-to-revisit-those-stories/

[buckchuckler]

Iron Fist (which I heard stinks),

It is a bit overacted for sure.  But it does have some pretty fun martial arts fighting scenes. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Remember the concession that the NRA surprisingly made after LV - they were advocating that "bump stocks" be made illegal?

After a day or two of congresspeople nodding their heads ... crickets.

Still no law against bump stocks.

Still no law closing the gun-show loophole.

Still no law requiring universal background checks, which are supported by a huge majority of Americans - even a majority of NRA members! - but our legislators don't have the backbones for it.

Still no law preventing gun sales to those on the no-fly list and terrorist watch list.

So there you have a few recommendations that I and other Scoopers have made previously, regulations that have the wide support of our fellow Americans.

Would they stop all or most or many shootings? Probably not. But if they stop 100 or 50 or a dozen a year, they're not worth it? What happened to "all life is precious"?

What's funny (not really; it's sad) is that the same people who argue that none of these moderate gun regulations would save lives will go to the mat defending the Muslim ban even though such a ban would not have prevented any of the terrorist attacks so far.

Go open one of the many closed threads, all of these were discussed at length.  But to remind you

Still no law against bump stocks.
They are stupid and will be banned, agree

Still no law closing the gun-show loophole.
This is a fancy way of saying private gun sales.  Go ahead an ban it, it is utterly unenforceable.  Your neighbor gives you $100 for your pistol, no possible way to track this and know it happened.

Still no law requiring universal background checks, which are supported by a huge majority of Americans - even a majority of NRA members! - but our legislators don't have the backbones for it.
Wait, I thought the NRA ran Washington.  How dare they defy them by having universal bakground checks.  Fact is this requires the Government to tie in hundreds of databases into one repository, and then secure it from unconstiutional uses (like emploiyers or landloads using it).  The Government cannot properly run a healthcare website.  It is simply beyond their capaiblity.  They have already spent/wasted billions to try and make this happen and they are nowhere.

Still no law preventing gun sales to those on the no-fly list and terrorist watch list.
You know the answer here.  This list a total unconstitutional mess.  I've repeatedly pointed out that when a name goes on the list, like Susan Johnson (the example of my friend), that means every Susan Johnson everywhere is banned from flying, and now you want to deny them a gun.  Fix the list first!  Again it is beyond the government's capability.  They have spent tons of money trying and can't.



Bottom line, I agree that all these need to be fixed, but the Government cannot ... why do you think the Airforce did not report the Texas Church shooter.  They are too incompetent and should never expect them to get competent enough to fix this.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Stop with the platitudes.  What are the "several places in the middle?"  Name them?

See 82's post for a lot of them. I would also advocate for longer waiting periods, increase required education, limits on magazines/mods, and increased penalties for possession of illegal firearms and illegally modified weapons.

[Hards Alumni]

Go open one of the many closed threads, all of these were discussed at length.  But to remind you

Still no law against bump stocks.
They are stupid and will be banned, agree

Still no law closing the gun-show loophole.
This is a fancy way of saying private gun sales.  Go ahead an ban it, it is utterly unenforceable.  Your neighbor gives you $100 for your pistol, no possible way to track this and know it happened.

Still no law requiring universal background checks, which are supported by a huge majority of Americans - even a majority of NRA members! - but our legislators don't have the backbones for it.
Wait, I thought the NRA ran Washington.  How dare they defy them by having universal bakground checks.  Fact is this requires the Government to tie in hundreds of databases into one repository, and then secure it from unconstiutional uses (like emploiyers or landloads using it).  The Government cannot properly run a healthcare website.  It is simply beyond their capaiblity.  They have already spent/wasted billions to try and make this happen and they are nowhere.

Still no law preventing gun sales to those on the no-fly list and terrorist watch list.
You know the answer here.  This list a total unconstitutional mess.  I've repeatedly pointed out that when a name goes on the list, like Susan Johnson (the example of my friend), that means every Susan Johnson everywhere is banned from flying, and now you want to deny them a gun.  Fix the list first!  Again it is beyond the government's capability.  They have spent tons of money trying and can't.



Bottom line, I agree that all these need to be fixed, but the Government cannot ... why do you think the Airforce did not report the Texas Church shooter.  They are too incompetent and should never expect them to get competent enough to fix this.

https://www.healthcare.gov/

Seems to work fine.  No issues for me for years now.

[Tugg Speedman]

See 82's post for a lot of them. I would also advocate for longer waiting periods, increase required education, limits on magazines/mods, and increased penalties for possession of illegal firearms and illegally modified weapons.

We have no waiting periods.  Instant check now.  We had waiting periods and were deemed ineffective.  So it was tried and failed.  What is the argument for them returning?

Increased education?  What exactly does that mean?  Force legal gun owners to spend money to attend government-sanctioned classes?  How does this help control bad guys?  How does this stop illegal activity?  Sounds like punishing law-abiding citizens.

The penalties for illegal firearms and illegal modifications are pretty harsh now, including years in prison.  What is the case that they are not harsh enough?

Magazines ... the problems is they are nothing but a hunk of metal and a spring.  There are millions and millions out and about.  The reason they are not banned is it is impossible to regulate.  So, go ahead and pass the law, but please admit (if you're honest) that absolutely nothing has changed once the law has been passed.

[rocket surgeon]

I don't know what the exact solutions should be.  I know more inaction isn't a good one.

i think a good start would be to quit plea bargaining or throwing out the felons in possession of a gun when charging them with the other laundry list of crimes in order to give them more probation or heaven forbid, the dreaded ankle bracelet

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Every little bit helps. The goal isn't to fix everything tomorrow. The goal is to change the culture so future generations don't have to deal with the same level of violence that we do now.

[Hards Alumni]

i think a good start would be to quit plea bargaining or throwing out the felons in possession of a gun when charging them with the other laundry list of crimes in order to give them more probation or heaven forbid, the dreaded ankle bracelet

I can get behind some of this.  Have a gun on you while you commit a violent crime, do double the time.  Plea bargaining is usually done to net more people in a crime, or to guarantee a conviction (10 years for sure, instead of 80% chance to convict and get 15 years)... so I'd hate to get rid of that.

[Tugg Speedman]

Every little bit helps. The goal isn't to fix everything tomorrow. The goal is to change the culture so future generations don't have to deal with the same level of violence that we do now.

And I'll ask the question yet again ... why is this happening now, as in the last five years!  How do we know this won't naturally go away in a few years?  This was not a problem before 2012.

------------

Until the 1930s you could buy machine guns, grenades, anti-tank weapons, cannons, mortars and the like.  Sears Roebuck sold them through their catalogs.  Why didn't we have a mass shooting problem before the 1930s?  (I detailed this in a previously, now banned, post).

More recently, why was this problem non-existent until about five years ago?  See the chart below.

We had millions of AR-15s in society in the 1980s and 1990s.  Why was there less than 20 people killed a year in mass-shootings back then (meaning 1 or 3 a year).  Why do we have about one a week now?

To be specific ... from 1982 to 2007 (25 years) only four mass shootings resulted in 10 or more killed.  We had nine in the last seven years, and two in the last month.  The last month has seen more mass shootings killing 10 or more than all of the 1980s.


What changed?  Hint:  It is not the availability of semi-automatic guns, as I have repeatedly pointed out, they have been in society for 140 years.  They have numbered in the hundreds of millions for decades.

Don't you think before we demand solutions these questions need to be answered first?

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/11/daily-chart-3

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's a lie that this was not a problem until 5 years ago. It became a bigger problem 5 years ago.

[Tugg Speedman]

It's a lie that this was not a problem until 5 years ago. It became a bigger problem 5 years ago.

Lie is a strong word.  Look at the chart again, before 2012 it was less than 20 a year, save the once every few years incident Only five times in the 30 years between 1982 and 2012 was it more than 20 in a year. and in 13 of these years, it was one or zero shootings for the year.  Still more people are killed struck by lighting than mass shootings.

---

What did the mentally unstable do to kill people in the 1980s?  Serial killings, see the chart below.  But as serial killings declined, mass shootings are on the rise.  (MU is very familiar with serial killers as Dahmer was at 24th and State in the 1980s).  Interesting that the peak of serial killings saw the same number of victims as mass shootings now.

So how do we know that this mass shooting epidemic is the next phase, after serial killings, as the mentally unstable move on to some other way in a few years?

If this has merit, then gun control is not only ineffective but counter-productive.

https://www.allanalytics.com/author.asp?section_id=3619&doc_id=278214


Was guns the issue with serial killings?  Less than half were by gun.  So the mentally unstable found a way to do it without a gun, and probably will again.

[4everwarriors]

17, actually.

https://qz.com/1130324/17-women-have-accused-donald-trump-of-sexual-assault-or-misconduct-its-time-to-revisit-those-stories/

Nothin’ compared to the BeeJays given ta Bill in the Oval Office. Actually, I offer my congratulations ta Bill on dat choice. if I were married to his mess, I’d stray too, ai na?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

All your data shows me is that things are getting worse. I don't think it has anything to do with the rise and fall of serial killers. I think it has a lot more to do with a culture that has become increasingly obsessed with violence and guns. I want less children growing up around and glorifying guns and violence.

[Tugg Speedman]

All your data shows me is that things are getting worse. I don't think it has anything to do with the rise and fall of serial killers. I think it has a lot more to do with a culture that has become increasingly obsessed with violence and guns. I want less children growing up around and glorifying guns and violence.

This I agree with this ... are you in favor of censoring Hollywood?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Nothin’ compared to the BeeJays given ta Bill in the Oval Office. Actually, I offer my congratulations ta Bill on dat choice. if I were married to his mess, I’d stray too, ai na?

Why is this an accepted/go to response in today's political culture? "But someone on the other side did something bad too!" Why can't it be "Yeah, the guy on my side screwed up, just like the guy on the other side did, let's hold them both accountable" Ai na?