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Author Topic: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory  (Read 964 times)

MU82

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Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« on: November 07, 2017, 11:08:39 PM »
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21/violent-crime-increases-right-carry-states/

Synopsis: States with right-to-carry concealed handgun laws experience increases in violent crime. Allowing any eligible American to get a gun results in worse results.

For most Americans, said Donohue, carrying a gun to avoid a criminal attack is similar to thinking that having a weekly brain scan will save your life, without considering the potential hazardous effects.

“If we gave 300 million people a brain scan, we would save a certain number of lives,” Donohue said. “But you wouldn’t want to advocate that treatment without considering how many lives would be lost by exposing so many to radiation damage."
"We were not made great as a country by indulging or even exalting our worst impulses, turning against ourselves, glorying in the things which divide us, and calling fake things true and true things fake."

real chili 83

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 01:26:35 AM »
Duh

tower912

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 05:10:52 AM »
This is a politics free zone
Real Warriors don't whine.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 08:10:46 AM »
This is a politics free zone

The paper is just a statistical analysis.

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 08:29:03 AM »
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21/violent-crime-increases-right-carry-states/

Synopsis: States with right-to-carry concealed handgun laws experience increases in violent crime. Allowing any eligible American to get a gun results in worse results.

For most Americans, said Donohue, carrying a gun to avoid a criminal attack is similar to thinking that having a weekly brain scan will save your life, without considering the potential hazardous effects.

“If we gave 300 million people a brain scan, we would save a certain number of lives,” Donohue said. “But you wouldn’t want to advocate that treatment without considering how many lives would be lost by exposing so many to radiation damage."


Good article. Thank you for sharing.

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 08:52:23 AM »
Because we are into balance here, a response from John Lott of U of Chicago and Yale fame.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/10/stanford-law-prof-gets-it-wrong-on-guns-right-to-carry-reduces-crime-not-other-way-around.html

This synopsis is rather interesting, especially as talked earlier this week about media spiking stories, pushing agendas, or generally not being balanced. 

"The report has been covered in Newsweek, The Atlantic, Bloomberg, other national outlets and many newspapers from Newsday to the Salt Lake City Tribune.  Despite outlets such as Newsweek claiming that the report “debunks” my own research, not a single reporter has contacted me for my thoughts.  The only quotes were from gun control advocates. By contrast, those same outlets have consistently sought out critics when discussing my own research.  Apparently, politically correct results get a free pass on proper journalistic scrutiny. "

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 09:54:30 AM »
Honest question.  Has John Lott ever done his own academic studies on the topic? I know he's written books but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's conducted and published his own research.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Benny B

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 10:14:54 AM »
Honest question.  Has John Lott ever done his own academic studies on the topic? I know he's written books but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's conducted and published his own research.

Same question, but Al Gore.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Pakuni

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 10:15:43 AM »


GB Warrior

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 11:48:10 AM »
Yeah but we saw good men with gun work* with our own eyes, so that debunks any scientific analysis that might conflict

*if we define "work" as someone kind of sort of intervened after 26 people were murdered

This works for global warming too. Two weeks ago, it was really nice outside above seasonal average. What a hoax.
Nobody says "It's only a game" when their team is winning.

Golden Avalanche

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 01:12:34 PM »
People prefer anecdotal evidence over statistical evidence when it comes to such an emotionally crippling issue.

For example, I laughed heartily at the delay of many hours in identifying the suspect in last week's mass shooting outside of Denver because police had to comb through the video and decide whether the many people who drew a weapon in the Wal-Mart were the assailant or simply "good guys with guns".

MU82

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 05:44:11 PM »
My favorite are the folks who think, "If only a few people had been armed in that Colorado movie theater ... "

Because having a bunch of people firing shots in a dark theater couldn't have possibly made things worse.
"We were not made great as a country by indulging or even exalting our worst impulses, turning against ourselves, glorying in the things which divide us, and calling fake things true and true things fake."

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 08:40:02 AM »
Honest question.  Has John Lott ever done his own academic studies on the topic? I know he's written books but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's conducted and published his own research.

Yes, while at Univ of Chicago, later at Wharton (Penn) and at AEI. 

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 08:41:24 AM »
My favorite are the folks who think, "If only a few people had been armed in that Colorado movie theater ... "

Because having a bunch of people firing shots in a dark theater couldn't have possibly made things worse.

What kind of theaters you going to, really dark seedy ones?  I can see at least 20 rows in front of me when I go to movies.  Besides, if someone is armed and the guy in front of him/her starts shooting or the person next to them, how is that hard to take them out?  It isn't.  Doesn't require a 50 foot shot.  It might, but it could also be a 3 foot point blank shot.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:10:32 AM by B. McBannerson »

Hards_Alumni

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 09:16:27 AM »
What kind of theaters you going to, really dark seedy ones?  I can see at least 20 rows in front of me when I go to movies.  Besides, if someone is armed and the guy in front of him/her starts shooting or the person next to them, how is that hard to take them out?  It isn't.  Doesn't require a 50 foot shot.  It might, but it could also be a 3 foot point blank shot.

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 09:45:16 AM »
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

You disagree that if someone is a few feet away in a movie theater you can't shoot them?  Let me ask you then, in those instances when such shooter is tackled by people, how do they do it since it is so dark? 

  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Hards_Alumni

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 09:56:13 AM »
You disagree that if someone is a few feet away in a movie theater you can't shoot them?  Let me ask you then, in those instances when such shooter is tackled by people, how do they do it since it is so dark? 

  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not what I said.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 10:19:52 AM »
What kind of theaters you going to, really dark seedy ones?  I can see at least 20 rows in front of me when I go to movies.  Besides, if someone is armed and the guy in front of him/her starts shooting or the person next to them, how is that hard to take them out?  It isn't.  Doesn't require a 50 foot shot.  It might, but it could also be a 3 foot point blank shot.

LOL Chicos fancies himself a fun-size halloween candy John Wayne. Except in the scenario he describes he'd blow away 3 innocent bystanders.

MU82

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 03:07:04 PM »
What kind of theaters you going to, really dark seedy ones?  I can see at least 20 rows in front of me when I go to movies.  Besides, if someone is armed and the guy in front of him/her starts shooting or the person next to them, how is that hard to take them out?  It isn't.  Doesn't require a 50 foot shot.  It might, but it could also be a 3 foot point blank shot.

Hilarious.

Rather than universal background checks - something 70%+ of NRA members agree should be the law, let alone 90%+ of Americans - what we really need is a law requiring movie theaters to hand out loaded guns to every man, woman and child as a condition for them being able to enter. That would make movie theaters the safest places on earth! Problem solved!!!!

This here is Archie Bunker of 704 Hauser Street, veteran of the big war, speaking on behalf of guns for everybody. Now, question: what was the first thing that the Communists done when they took over Russia? Answer: gun control. And there's a lot of people in this country want to do the same thing to us here in a kind of conspiracy, see. You take your big international bankers, they want to - whaddya call - masticate the people of this here nation like puppets on the wing, and then when they get their guns, turn us over to the Commies. Now I want to talk about another thing that's on everybody's minds today, and that's your stick-ups and your skyjackings, and which, if that were up to me, I could end the skyjackings tomorrow. All you gotta do is arm all your passengers. He ain't got no more moral superiority there, and he ain't gonna dare to pull out no rod. And then your airlines, they wouldn't have to search the passengers on the ground no more, they just pass out the pistols at the beginning of the trip, and they just pick them up at the end! Case closed.

I've always thought you had a lot in common with Archie Bunker, chicos. Congrats!
"We were not made great as a country by indulging or even exalting our worst impulses, turning against ourselves, glorying in the things which divide us, and calling fake things true and true things fake."

rocket surgeon

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2017, 06:09:01 PM »
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21/violent-crime-increases-right-carry-states/

Synopsis: States with right-to-carry concealed handgun laws experience increases in violent crime. Allowing any eligible American to get a gun results in worse results.

For most Americans, said Donohue, carrying a gun to avoid a criminal attack is similar to thinking that having a weekly brain scan will save your life, without considering the potential hazardous effects.

“If we gave 300 million people a brain scan, we would save a certain number of lives,” Donohue said. “But you wouldn’t want to advocate that treatment without considering how many lives would be lost by exposing so many to radiation damage."


 this doesn't hold a candle to john lott's research.  the bottom line for CCW people is, most of them just want a chance to defend themselves(with a gun(s) and/or family if confronted with an evil person with a gun(s).   mass shooters need not apply.  do we need more laws and/or regulations?  if we would only enforce the ones we have first,  some of these other atrocities could have been avoided.  unfortunately, we are never going to stop every bad thing from ever happening to everyone.  a lot of bad stuff happens sans guns

B. McBannerson

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »
this doesn't hold a candle to john lott's research.  the bottom line for CCW people is, most of them just want a chance to defend themselves(with a gun(s) and/or family if confronted with an evil person with a gun(s).   mass shooters need not apply.  do we need more laws and/or regulations?  if we would only enforce the ones we have first,  some of these other atrocities could have been avoided.  unfortunately, we are never going to stop every bad thing from ever happening to everyone.  a lot of bad stuff happens sans guns

You carry, correct?  If someone in a theater was close to you and started to shoot would you rather be without your weapon or with your weapon?

Secondly, do you think if they were close by you could act or would it be so dark that you couldn't even see your hand in front of your face?

Third, would you feel like John Wayne?

rocket surgeon

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2017, 07:19:43 AM »
You carry, correct?  If someone in a theater was close to you and started to shoot would you rather be without your weapon or with your weapon?

Secondly, do you think if they were close by you could act or would it be so dark that you couldn't even see your hand in front of your face?

Third, would you feel like John Wayne?

yes

if they were close by, you would be able to see him by the flash coming from his gun every time he shoots and, movie theaters are not so dark that you cannot see somewhat. this situation was discussed in my CCW class.  also, most people, when there are shots being fired, get down.  so there isn't going to be a crowd of people standing between and around said gun man(know your target and beyond) 

i don't know what john wayne felt like

  this is exactly one of the scenarios CCW people are talking about-without a gun, they do not have even a chance.  last thing on someone's mind is getting his picture in the paper or on tv.  this is the real deal. 

i've told you my story, having CCW may have saved me from very serious injury if not worse.  fortunately i didn't have to fire.  all i did was "badge" my gun and it stopped the threat.  turned out the 3 attackers  were illegal and illegally carrying

MU82

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 06:12:52 PM »
Well, now that Yogi and Boo Boo have finally found common ground for once, it's settled.
"We were not made great as a country by indulging or even exalting our worst impulses, turning against ourselves, glorying in the things which divide us, and calling fake things true and true things fake."

jesmu84

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Jockey

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Re: Stanford study debunks "good guys with guns" theory
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 01:15:54 PM »
Well, now that Yogi and Boo Boo have finally found common ground for once, it's settled.

They never consider the 3rd armed guy in a theater. He now sees two guys shooting so he starts blasting both of them. No time to aim or worry about collateral damage.

Now, the 4th armed guy decides to take action. Looks like there are three serial killers firing at everyone. So he just blasts away.

So, the security guard who heard the shots rushes in - gun drawn. Who does he fire at first?

Etc., etc.