collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* 2016-17 SOTG Standings


2016-17 Season SoG Tally
Fischer4
Howard3
Johnson3
Rowsey3
Hauser2
Cheatham1
Heldt1
Reinhardt1
Wilson1

'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Recruiting as of 9/15/17 by MomofMUltiples
[Today at 10:09:06 AM]


Preseason predictions by barfolomew
[Today at 09:54:35 AM]


Transfer rule changes by 4or5yearstojudge
[Today at 09:47:10 AM]


wonder what this will be.... by oldwarrior81
[September 21, 2017, 06:02:30 PM]


New Beat Writer by naginiF
[September 21, 2017, 05:08:54 PM]


Al's Run: Let's get the ball roling by Dr. Blackheart
[September 21, 2017, 04:50:05 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: Marquette Madness

Marquette
19
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 6, 7 p.m. CT
TV: None?
Wiki entry for 2017-18
Warriors
77

Author Topic: Transfer rule changes  (Read 7590 times)

cheebs09

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1570
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #175 on: September 11, 2017, 11:12:04 AM »
I think this part is completely overblown.

Does anyone have an example of a situation where a team got a new arena and the program as a whole measurably improved?

Ask this in 2021 as we cut down the nets after our 3rd National Title in a row.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #176 on: September 11, 2017, 01:23:17 PM »
I suppose it depends if you consider Northwestern in Chicago or not (northeast suburbs?). As far as the city proper, probably DePaul, but Northwestern isn't far away and I'd put them miles ahead of the Demons right now.

Agreed. I was thinking of schools that could hypothetically have replaced DePaul in the BE.

source?

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #177 on: September 11, 2017, 01:28:09 PM »
I think this part is completely overblown.

Does anyone have an example of a situation where a team got a new arena and the program as a whole measurably improved?

Xavier. Cintas went up in 2000 and a program that previously only been to the sweet 16 once went to the elite 8 twice in the following 8 years. I what we should really be asking is what the programs DePaul is recruiting against are doing. They don't recruit at the same level as the rest of the BE, but if they start winning the top ones they are going for now they can build cycle over cycle. Unlikely, but possible.

BagpipingBoxer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #178 on: September 11, 2017, 01:43:01 PM »
Xavier. Cintas went up in 2000 and a program that previously only been to the sweet 16 once went to the elite 8 twice in the following 8 years. I what we should really be asking is what the programs DePaul is recruiting against are doing. They don't recruit at the same level as the rest of the BE, but if they start winning the top ones they are going for now they can build cycle over cycle. Unlikely, but possible.

Unfortunately DePaul hasn't even done anything with the few good recruits they have landed billy garret and myke Henry were both former top 100s, not great but you'd think it'd be enough to work with when they were upper classmen but they still sucked. Unfortunately I think it's just a sad culture there at this point and the last embarrassing coaching search didn't help
NCAA: 55, 59, 61, 68, 69, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 82, 83, 93, 94, 96, 97, 02, 03, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17
S16: 55, 59, 68, 69, 71, 72, 73, 74, 76, 77, 79, 94, 03, 11, 12, 13
E8: 55, 69, 74, 76, 77, 03, 13
F4: 74, 77, 03
F: 74, 77
C: 77

Sultan of Slap O' Fivin'

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22190
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #179 on: September 11, 2017, 01:46:33 PM »
Xavier. Cintas went up in 2000 and a program that previously only been to the sweet 16 once went to the elite 8 twice in the following 8 years.


I think most people would attribute Xavier's turnaround with the arrival of Pete Gillen in 1985 and not the opening of Cintas fifteen years later.

source?

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #180 on: September 11, 2017, 02:02:58 PM »

I think most people would attribute Xavier's turnaround with the arrival of Pete Gillen in 1985 and not the opening of Cintas fifteen years later.

Fair enough, but it is interesting that exactly one recruiting cycle after Cintas opened (2004) was Xavier's first ever breakthrough to the E8.

Sultan of Slap O' Fivin'

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22190
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #181 on: September 11, 2017, 02:05:12 PM »
I have no doubt that a building can make a difference.  Look at the Kohl Center versus the old Fieldhouse.  But unless the program is heading in the right direction with a good coach anyway, it's not going to make much of a difference. 

So I think if DePaul were heading in the right direction, this building could be a game changer.  But they aren't.  They hired a ho-hum retread of a coach who isn't doing much.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #182 on: September 11, 2017, 05:04:13 PM »

I think this part is completely overblown.


I agree that the importance of arenas is overblown. Pauley Pavilion has always been second-rate, but UCLA does fine; MU's best years were in the Arena; Arkansas was better before Bud Walton Arena; Mizzou was better before the new Mizzou Arena, etc. People can always come up with examples to the contrary, but on balance, it's far more about the investment in the program and the head coach. 


brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15169
  • Alan Bykowski
    • Brew City Ball
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #183 on: September 11, 2017, 06:12:38 PM »
Agreed. I was thinking of schools that could hypothetically have replaced DePaul in the BE.

Gotcha. Here's the thing...someone has to lose. I have no problem with it being DePaul. It's best for the league if 2-3 teams are losing 13+ games per year. Increases everyone else's chances of getting to the tournament.

Jockey

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Formerly BrandX
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #184 on: September 11, 2017, 08:28:29 PM »
Sounds like this could actually happen. Hope it does for the sake of the athletes.

http://247sports.com/Article/Sources-Major-Potential-Shift-In-NCAA-Transfer-Rules-107001121

We need to recognize a couple realities about transferring. The VAST MAJORITY of transfers are due to guys not being good enough to play, so they transfer out of Division 1 basketball entirely.

Then you have to add a large number that transfer downward within D1 to a Mid-Major from a Power 6 team.

Finally, you have a small number that transfer up to a Power 6 conference team from a lower level - in, fact, less than 50 players per year.

Transfers are not the problem that we all make it out to be.

Quentin's Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7854
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #185 on: September 11, 2017, 08:32:18 PM »

I think most people would attribute Xavier's turnaround with the arrival of Pete Gillen in 1985 and not the opening of Cintas fifteen years later.

Agreed - the willingness to make the investment in Cintas was due to X's prior success and the hope that it could continue/expand.

Quentin's Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7854
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #186 on: September 11, 2017, 08:39:35 PM »
We need to recognize a couple realities about transferring. The VAST MAJORITY of transfers are due to guys not being good enough to play, so they transfer out of Division 1 basketball entirely.

Then you have to add a large number that transfer downward within D1 to a Mid-Major from a Power 6 team.

Finally, you have a small number that transfer up to a Power 6 conference team from a lower level - in, fact, less than 50 players per year.

Transfers are not the problem that we all make it out to be.

You're right, Brandie, but in both cases transfers benefit the "big boys" and if you make things more seamless (no sit out year) you'll get more of the same - it will be easier for the big boys to dump their dead wood and easier for them to poach the mid and low majors for those rare diamonds in the rough. The rich will get richer, something I would think would be anathema to you :)


Jockey

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Formerly BrandX
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #187 on: September 11, 2017, 08:45:20 PM »
You're right, Brandie, but in both cases transfers benefit the "big boys" and if you make things more seamless (no sit out year) you'll get more of the same - it will be easier for the big boys to dump their dead wood and easier for them to poach the mid and low majors for those rare diamonds in the rough. The rich will get richer, something I would think would be anathema to you :)

The big boys already dump their dead wood, so I don't know whether anything changes on that front.

But, your other point, I believe, is correct. I don't think it moves the needle at all as far as Blue Bloods are concerned, because they already are loaded with stars. But some Power 6 teams probably would try to use lower level programs as their "minor leagues". D1 coaches don't tend to be moral and ethical leaders.

source?

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #188 on: September 11, 2017, 08:47:29 PM »
Agreed - the willingness to make the investment in Cintas was due to X's prior success and the hope that it could continue/expand.

The question I answered was "measurable improvement after building a new arena" and I'd say Xavier qualifies. The question was not "has a new facility ever been the sole driver of program improvement?"

Quentin's Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7854
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #189 on: September 11, 2017, 08:50:52 PM »
The question I answered was "measurable improvement after building a new arena" and I'd say Xavier qualifies. The question was not "has a new facility ever been the sole driver of program improvement?"

Fair enough.

Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3555
  • 9-9-9
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #190 on: September 11, 2017, 10:24:52 PM »
This thread was about transfers, it has morphed to DePaul. If DePaul hired Tom Crean ,he would have the clout to recruit enough good transfers to get their program respectable and then build with traditional high school talent. DePauls new arena is definitely going to help the overall image of the program. Also attendance will be aided in a small way by trade show people looking for easy entertainment options. Granted it may not be a huge amount of people  but beggars can't be choosers.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15169
  • Alan Bykowski
    • Brew City Ball
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #191 on: September 11, 2017, 10:30:10 PM »
This thread was about transfers, it has morphed to DePaul. If DePaul hired Tom Crean ,he would have the clout to recruit enough good transfers to get their program respectable and then build with traditional high school talent.

To the former, imagine our shock at a Scoop thread going off topic.

To the latter, isn't that what Leitao is doing? Harrison-Docks last year, Maric and Coleman-Lands this year. I know they're DePaul, but I could see Leitao getting them to the middle of the league given time.

Sultan of Slap O' Fivin'

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22190
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #192 on: September 12, 2017, 08:33:12 AM »
I think Bryce Drew is the guy DePaul should have landed.  Young energetic coach, connections all over Chicago, reputation as a good recruiter.

I think he ran away from that job after he learned more about it.  Got a better one a year later anyway.

Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3555
  • 9-9-9
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #193 on: September 12, 2017, 10:21:19 AM »
To the former, imagine our shock at a Scoop thread going off topic.

To the latter, isn't that what Leitao is doing? Harrison-Docks last year, Maric and Coleman-Lands this year. I know they're DePaul, but I could see Leitao getting them to the middle of the league given time.
Leitao is a good guy and is making slow progress . However , I think a carny barker like Coach Crean could really get the media attention necessary to get things moving at a faster pace.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5921
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #194 on: September 12, 2017, 10:28:18 AM »
The question I answered was "measurable improvement after building a new arena" and I'd say Xavier qualifies. The question was not "has a new facility ever been the sole driver of program improvement?"

In the 10 years before Cintas, Xavier had a .693 win percentage. In the years since, they've had a .705 win percentage.
That's like 6-7 more wins over 15 years. It's something, I guess.

bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6899
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #195 on: September 12, 2017, 08:49:30 PM »
Wisconsin has been really good, since the Kohl Center was built. Who knows what would of happened, if they were still playing in the field house, but my guess is the Kohl Center has helped a lot.

Sultan of Slap O' Fivin'

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22190
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #196 on: September 12, 2017, 08:55:11 PM »
Wisconsin has been really good, since the Kohl Center was built. Who knows what would of happened, if they were still playing in the field house, but my guess is the Kohl Center has helped a lot.

In looking at the records, that's a pretty good example.  Before moving to the Kohl Center, the Badgers never had a 20 win season.  Their first was the first year in the KC. 

In the 19 years they have been in the KC, they have had only 3 years of less than 20 wins and none since 2005-06.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7419
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #197 on: September 12, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »
And yet ... I went to a LOT of games at the Fieldhouse. The few times Wisconsin had a good team, that place really rocked. When the band would play the Bud song and the fans would go crazy, I actually got goosebumps. And I HATED Bucky.
Unity.

Bocephys

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1563
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #198 on: September 13, 2017, 04:53:55 AM »
In looking at the records, that's a pretty good example.  Before moving to the Kohl Center, the Badgers never had a 20 win season.  Their first was the first year in the KC. 

In the 19 years they have been in the KC, they have had only 3 years of less than 20 wins and none since 2005-06.

The Kohl Center doesn't cause that, though.  What it does is act as a leading indicator that the university is willing to allocate funds towards a successful basketball program.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Transfer rule changes
« Reply #199 on: September 13, 2017, 07:23:18 AM »
And yet ... I went to a LOT of games at the Fieldhouse. The few times Wisconsin had a good team, that place really rocked. When the band would play the Bud song and the fans would go crazy, I actually got goosebumps. And I HATED Bucky.

Agreed. They weren't as successful back then...but the Fieldhouse was a great environment in terms of noise and fan involvement.