Crowder to Cleveland?

[wadesworld]

I think it's a lot more likely that the Cavs lose to the C's than it is the Cavs win more than 2 games against the Warriors.  Sure, Jae helps defensively.  But the Cavs only hope to beat the Warriors any of the last 3 years (and he got hurt in the 1st of them, so that wasn't an option there) was for Kyrie to go absolutely nuts.  LBJ will get his 30, 10, and 8.  They needed Kyrie to not get abused defensively and to absolutely dominate offensively.  The Warriors will simply throw Klay on IT defensively and then the Cavs will have to try to hide IT on the defensive end by putting him on...well...umm...Klay?  Lol.  Klay might average 10 3 pointers a game if IT is guarding him in a series.

Jae can match up with Draymond, who hardly looks to score anymore anyways so I'm not sure how much he really affects Draymond's game.  LBJ defensively can get abused by KD again.  Then what?  IT on Klay or Steph?  Either way, oops.  Love on McGhee/Zaza/Bell?  Good luck guarding the pick and roll.  JR on Steph then I guess, good luck.

I think the Cavs match up worse with the Warriors now.  The issue wasn't guarding Draymond Green.  It was guarding all of their perimeter options.  Kyrie was at least tall and athletic enough to sometimes contest a shot.  IT will get absolutely abused and Jae will just be guarding someone whose game won't be affected much by him.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

If guys like Otto Porter are getting the max, IT is obviously going to get the max.  Do the Cav's give a 5'6", 29 year old PG with hip issues that cannot defend a single NBA player a max contract with LeBron walking next offseason?  Or do they just bottom out, get a top pick in next year's draft (Brooklyn's pick) and a top pick in the following draft (their own) and move on without IT and LBJ right away?

I'd say the latter.  That's why I love this deal for Cleveland.  It gives them two useful pieces to contend this year (Thomas and Crowder) while also jump starting their next rebuild.  I have to see Bagley, Porter, and Ayton in college to get a feel for how good they are, but at least there are several intriguing pieces at the top of the draft.  Plus there's Luca Doncic from Europe.

The Celtics on the other hand, I'm not sure.  They're almost a completely different team.  They added Irving, Hayward, Morris, and Tatum but lost Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Johnson, and Olynyk.  Boston gained some all-stars but lost some grit and defense.  They'll be a completely different style next season.  They might be incrementally better but I don't see a team lead by Irving and Hayward as a title contender.  They might get to the Finals because the East is weak but they don't stack up against the best of the West.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I think it's a lot more likely that the Cavs lose to the C's than it is the Cavs win more than 2 games against the Warriors.  Sure, Jae helps defensively.  But the Cavs only hope to beat the Warriors any of the last 3 years (and he got hurt in the 1st of them, so that wasn't an option there) was for Kyrie to go absolutely nuts.  LBJ will get his 30, 10, and 8.  They needed Kyrie to not get abused defensively and to absolutely dominate offensively.  The Warriors will simply throw Klay on IT defensively and then the Cavs will have to try to hide IT on the defensive end by putting him on...well...umm...Klay?  Lol.  Klay might average 10 3 pointers a game if IT is guarding him in a series.

Jae can match up with Draymond, who hardly looks to score anymore anyways so I'm not sure how much he really affects Draymond's game.  LBJ defensively can get abused by KD again.  Then what?  IT on Klay or Steph?  Either way, oops.  Love on McGhee/Zaza/Bell?  Good luck guarding the pick and roll.  JR on Steph then I guess, good luck.

I think the Cavs match up worse with the Warriors now.  The issue wasn't guarding Draymond Green.  It was guarding all of their perimeter options.  Kyrie was at least tall and athletic enough to sometimes contest a shot.  IT will get absolutely abused and Jae will just be guarding someone whose game won't be affected much by him.

I agree with this.  All things considered, Thomas and Crowder at least give the Cavs a shot at getting back to the Finals.  The Cavs got worse but not drastically.  Did the Celtics do enough to catch them is the question.

[wadesworld]

I agree with this.  All things considered, Thomas and Crowder at least give the Cavs a shot at getting back to the Finals.  The Cavs got worse but not drastically.  Did the Celtics do enough to catch them is the question.

Agreed.  It's as good of a return as the Cavs could've hoped for and it was a necessary move.  But I still think it makes the Cavs worse, though not significantly.  I also think the C's addressed their biggest need not with just this move but also through free agency and the draft, but they did get rid of their two best (and single worst) perimeter defenders, so while I think they got better, their identity will definitely be changing.

Edit: The post before the one I quoted sums up where I think they are as well.

[The Lens]

I'm not sure the Nets will be "that" bad.  1) They play in the east, 2) they've added some serviceable players in De'Angelo Russell, DeMarre Carroll and Allen Crabbe.  I could see them winning 30 games.

[LloydsLegs]

I'm not sure the Nets will be "that" bad.  1) They play in the east, 2) they've added some serviceable players in De'Angelo Russell, DeMarre Carroll and Allen Crabbe.  I could see them winning 30 games.

Agreed.  And, b/c the pick is not their own, the Nets have no incentive to take.  There are at least 6 teams that will be tanking by the end of the season.  This could be an 8 to 11 pick.

[wadesworld]

I'm not sure the Nets will be "that" bad.  1) They play in the east, 2) they've added some serviceable players in De'Angelo Russell, DeMarre Carroll and Allen Crabbe.  I could see them winning 30 games.

Good point.

[Eldon]

I disagree.  Crowder matches up well with Golden State.  They need Jae to go small and switchable.  I'd put him opposite Draymond.  Jae might even get under Draymond's skin and get him to commit some technicals and earn a suspension.  That wouldn't surprise me at all.

If Lebron leaves in free agency, the Cavs can trade Crowder for a first round pick in the off-season.  He could also be packaged with a pick in a salary dump involving someone like JR Smith or Tristan Thompson.

First thing that came to my mind when I heard about the trade.

Letting my imagination run wild a bit, maybe Jae and Dray get into it over the course of a series.  Then, in the fall of 2018, they agree to fight each other in a boxing match, fighting on the undercard for the 2019 Mayweather-Foreman fight.  I'm confident that Jae would beat him handily.

[GoldenWarrior11]

If you draft a once-in-a-generational talent like a LeBron James, and ONLY win one NBA Championship, then yes, I think that can be classified as falling short.  Cleveland failed the first time around by not surrounding him with complimentary talent, and it pushed him to Miami.  The Bulls never, in my mind, drafted such a player of his caliber.  Brand?  Fizer?  Chandler?  Absolutely not.  Rose was a superstar until he blew out his knee (the first time). 

The fact that LeBron has also been to eight NBA Finals, and lost five of them, will always be a mark on his career.  His is, without question, one of the most physically gifted and athletically skilled players the NBA has ever seen.  Statistically, he will be one of the greats as well.  However, his legacy will always be his inability to win championships without acquiring superstar players that "assist" him. 

[Jockey]

Well, they do have an NBA championship to show for it, and that's a lot more than most teams have. They also have three other trips to the Finals to show for it.

How about the Bulls in the first decade A.M.:

1999 - Brand #1
2000 - Fizer #4
2001 - Curry #4 (and Chandler #2 by Clippers, acquired in trade for Brand)
2002 - Williams #2
2004 - Gordon #3
2006 - Aldridge #2 (traded to Blazers for Tyrus Thomas and Viktor Khryapa - oy)
2008 - Rose #1

That's 8 top-4 picks in 10 years ... and what did the Bulls have to show for that? One trip to the conference finals, in which they got killed by the 2011 Heat.

Also during those years: Artest #16 in 1999; Chris Mihm #7 in 2000; Hinrich #7 in 2003 (after Pax refused to include Donyell Marshall in a deal that would have let Bulls draft Wade); Noah #9 in 2007.

So I think the Cavs would take what they got for their picks!

Brand was one of the best picks ever.

[MU82]

Use your options to hide signatures.

This.

It's my signature. I change it every so often, and I'll change it again. I don't ask anybody to hide his/her signature. It's immaterial to me, easy to ignore ... unless somebody talks about my mama!

[LON]

If you draft a once-in-a-generational talent like a LeBron James, and ONLY win one NBA Championship, then yes, I think that can be classified as falling short.  Cleveland failed the first time around by not surrounding him with complimentary talent, and it pushed him to Miami.  The Bulls never, in my mind, drafted such a player of his caliber.  Brand?  Fizer?  Chandler?  Absolutely not.  Rose was a superstar until he blew out his knee (the first time). 

The fact that LeBron has also been to eight NBA Finals, and lost five of them, will always be a mark on his career.  His is, without question, one of the most physically gifted and athletically skilled players the NBA has ever seen.  Statistically, he will be one of the greats as well.  However, his legacy will always be his inability to win championships without acquiring superstar players that "assist" him.

How else do you win a championship?

Spurs beat him in 2007.  Duncan, Ginobli, Parker. 
Mavs beat him in 2011.  Kidd and Dirk...not loaded, so this one I can see knocking him.
Spurs beat him in 2014.  Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, and Leonard.
Golden State in 2015.  Klay, Steph, Draymond, and Iggy (maybe not a "superstar").
Golden State in 2017...don't need to point out the obvious.

[jficke13]

If you draft a once-in-a-generational talent like a LeBron James, and ONLY win one NBA Championship, then yes, I think that can be classified as falling short.  Cleveland failed the first time around by not surrounding him with complimentary talent, and it pushed him to Miami.  The Bulls never, in my mind, drafted such a player of his caliber.  Brand?  Fizer?  Chandler?  Absolutely not.  Rose was a superstar until he blew out his knee (the first time). 

The fact that LeBron has also been to eight NBA Finals, and lost five of them, will always be a mark on his career.  His is, without question, one of the most physically gifted and athletically skilled players the NBA has ever seen.  Statistically, he will be one of the greats as well.  However, his legacy will always be his inability to win championships without acquiring superstar players that "assist" him.

Maybe part of his legacy should be the superhhuman accomplishment of reaching that many finals given the hammered garbage that Cleveland management insists on trotting out on the floor with him.

[wadesworld]

Maybe part of his legacy should be the superhhuman accomplishment of reaching that many finals given the hammered garbage that Cleveland management insists on trotting out on the floor with him.

I'd say Kyrie and Love are much more than "hammered garbage," and the contracts that are on the current Cavs roster that are "hammered garbage" are courtesy of GM LeBron publicly forcing the Cav's front office's hand into giving out absurd money for Tristian Thompson and JR Smith.  That's the ultimate irony in all of LeBron's complaining about being "top heavy," needing more help, and being upset that the Cav's owner isn't willing to go even further into the luxury tax despite having the highest payroll in the NBA.

Let's be honest here.  7 of his 8 NBA Finals appearances came out of the very weak Eastern Conference while having either Kyrie and Love or Wade and Bosh next to him.  If you want to call those teams "hammered garbage" so be it.  I'll simply disagree there.

[MU82]

In all his time in Cleveland, LeBron had one great "sidekick" - Kyrie Irving. And even that was only for what, 3 years? And they went to the Finals all 3, winning 1 title.

Who was the next best teammate he ever had in Cleveland? Love? Larry Hughes? Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Mo Williams? An over-the-hill Antawn Jamison?

LeBron's trip to the 2007 Finals was one of the most incredible one-man shows of all time. Maybe No. 1 on that list.

How many titles did Michael win without Scottie? How many did Kobe win without Shaq and/or Pau? How many did Shaq win without Kobe and/or Wade? How many did Magic win without Kareem? How many did Bird win without McHale and Chief? How many did Russell win without Havlicek and those other all-time greats? Etc, etc, etc. This just in: Even the greatest players ever need great supporting players.

LeBron's "legacy" is just fine. He's one of the greatest players ever - very possibly one of the 2 greatest players ever, but certainly top 5. He's also a 3-time champion and a force of nature.

So silly to have to defend LeBron so often here.

[wadesworld]

In all his time in Cleveland, LeBron had one great "sidekick" - Kyrie Irving. And even that was only for what, 3 years? And they went to the Finals all 3, winning 1 title.

Who was the next best teammate he ever had in Cleveland? Love? Larry Hughes? Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Mo Williams? An over-the-hill Antawn Jamison?

LeBron's trip to the 2007 Finals was one of the most incredible one-man shows of all time. Maybe No. 1 on that list.

How many titles did Michael win without Scottie? How many did Kobe win without Shaq and/or Pau? How many did Shaq win without Kobe and/or Wade? How many did Magic win without Kareem? How many did Bird win without McHale and Chief? How many did Russell win without Havlicek and those other all-time greats? Etc, etc, etc. This just in: Even the greatest players ever need great supporting players.

LeBron's "legacy" is just fine. He's one of the greatest players ever - very possibly one of the 2 greatest players ever, but certainly top 5. He's also a 3-time champion and a force of nature.

So silly to have to defend LeBron so often here.

Nobody's denying LBJ is great.  But you should probably go and read the quote that I responded to.  LeBron James has made the NBA Finals 8 times in his career so far.  In only 1 of those trips to the NBA Finals did he NOT play with 2 possible (in the Heat's case, probable) future NBA HOF players in their primes.  So when someone says, "part of his legacy should be the superhhuman accomplishment of reaching that many finals given the hammered garbage that Cleveland management insists on trotting out on the floor with him," that's simply rewriting history.  He had "hammered garbage" for his first NBA Title appearance.  After that?  Heck no.

[jficke13]

I'd say Kyrie and Love are much more than "hammered garbage," and the contracts that are on the current Cavs roster that are "hammered garbage" are courtesy of GM LeBron publicly forcing the Cav's front office's hand into giving out absurd money for Tristian Thompson and JR Smith.  That's the ultimate irony in all of LeBron's complaining about being "top heavy," needing more help, and being upset that the Cav's owner isn't willing to go even further into the luxury tax despite having the highest payroll in the NBA.

Let's be honest here.  7 of his 8 NBA Finals appearances came out of the very weak Eastern Conference while having either Kyrie and Love or Wade and Bosh next to him.  If you want to call those teams "hammered garbage" so be it.  I'll simply disagree there.

And his first tour in CLE with such luminaries in 2007 as Ilgauskas, Varejao, and Drew Gooden?

[SERocks]

3.) I cringe at having to root for Cleveland next year for Crowder and Wade.

Agreed 100%.  Ugh. 

[MU82]

Nobody's denying LBJ is great.  But you should probably go and read the quote that I responded to.  LeBron James has made the NBA Finals 8 times in his career so far.  In only 1 of those trips to the NBA Finals did he NOT play with 2 possible (in the Heat's case, probable) future NBA HOF players in their primes.  So when someone says, "part of his legacy should be the superhhuman accomplishment of reaching that many finals given the hammered garbage that Cleveland management insists on trotting out on the floor with him," that's simply rewriting history.  He had "hammered garbage" for his first NBA Title appearance.  After that?  Heck no.

As usual in these kinds of situations, there is too much exaggeration on both "sides."

The first time LeBron was in Cleveland, that "hammered garbage" description probably fits. The second time, obviously not. Kyrie is great and Love is a very good role player; to deny that is just foolish.

But wades, you are what those who follow the stock market might call a "LeBron bear." You often look for any chance possible to trash him.

LeBron is still behind Jordan; I doubt most would dispute that. After that, toss a half-dozen or so names in a hat and any could be No. 2. And LeBron would be one of the names in the hat.

THAT'S his legacy. To deny that is just foolish, too.

And here's the deal ... he probably still has 5 great to incredible seasons left in him. His ultimate legacy hasn't been written yet.

[wadesworld]

And his first tour in CLE with such luminaries in 2007 as Ilgauskas, Varejao, and Drew Gooden?

Right.  Which is why I said "7 of the 8 years."  Meaning there is...one remaining.  Go read your own quote.

Maybe part of his legacy should be the superhhuman accomplishment of reaching that many finals given the hammered garbage that Cleveland management insists on trotting out on the floor with him.

Sumperhuman...that many finals...hammered garbage...trotting out on the floor with him.  Seems to suggest that all 4 times (or at least 2, but the "that many" part seems to suggest more than just one or two but every time, but again, maybe I'm misreading here) LBJ has taken the Cavs to the Finals it has all been 100% courtesy of him putting all 12 other players on the roster on his back and carrying all that "hammered garbage" along with him to the Finals.  That's simply wrong.  He did that one of the four times he's gone to the Finals with the Cavs.  The other three times he's done it with 2 potential Hall of Fame teammates in their prime.

[wadesworld]

As usual in these kinds of situations, there is too much exaggeration on both "sides."

The first time LeBron was in Cleveland, that "hammered garbage" description probably fits. The second time, obviously not. Kyrie is great and Love is a very good role player; to deny that is just foolish.

But wades, you are what those who follow the stock market might call a "LeBron bear." You often look for any chance possible to trash him.

LeBron is still behind Jordan; I doubt most would dispute that. After that, toss a half-dozen or so names in a hat and any could be No. 2. And LeBron would be one of the names in the hat.

THAT'S his legacy. To deny that is just foolish, too.

And here's the deal ... he probably still has 5 great to incredible seasons left in him. His ultimate legacy hasn't been written yet.

I'm not bashing LBJ at all in this situation.  I haven't said anything about his legacy.  All I've said is that that he's had a great supporting cast in Cleveland for 3 of the 4 times he's gone to the NBA Finals with them.

To some a guy who has averaged 18 and 12 for his career and is a career 37% 3 point shooter while having a career worst season of 16 and 10 while shooting 36% from 3 (excluding his rookie and second year where he was 11 and 9 and 14 and 11) is a "very good role player."  But given that basketball reference puts him at just below a 50% chance to make the Hall of Fame I'd argue he is much more than that, or that there are very few people in the history of basketball who have been more than that, I guess.

[jficke13]

FWIW the odds for each of his series have been:

2017: Cavs + 220
2016: Cavs + 180
2015: Cavs + 190
2014: MIA + 105
2013: MIA - 240
2012: MIA + 140
2011: MIA - 180
2007: CLE + 350

(#s from the easy ESPN.com and Oddsshark sites that came up via google)

He's been favored twice and won one of the series he's been favored in. He's been an underdog the rest and picked up two more. At the least, he's not rolling into the Finals with such a juggernaut that the betting lines are siding with him.

[wadesworld]

FWIW the odds for each of his series have been:

2017: Cavs + 220
2016: Cavs + 180
2015: Cavs + 190
2014: MIA + 105
2013: MIA - 240
2012: MIA + 140
2011: MIA - 180
2007: CLE + 350

(#s from the easy ESPN.com and Oddsshark sites that came up via google)

He's been favored twice and won one of the series he's been favored in. He's been an underdog the rest and picked up two more. At the least, he's not rolling into the Finals with such a juggernaut that the betting lines are siding with him.

That's not what your statement that I was addressing/quoted was about.  It was about simply getting to the NBA Finals with "hammered garbage" and how he should be celebrated as superhuman for that.  Again, in 7 of the 8 times he has gone to the NBA Finals he hasn't had "hammered garbage" surrounding him.  Incredible player.  Has had some other incredible players next to him when he's had Playoff success.  Much like many greats.

[MU82]

I'm not bashing LBJ at all in this situation.  I haven't said anything about his legacy.  All I've said is that that he's had a great supporting cast in Cleveland for 3 of the 4 times he's gone to the NBA Finals with them.

To some a guy who has averaged 18 and 12 for his career and is a career 37% 3 point shooter while having a career worst season of 16 and 10 while shooting 36% from 3 (excluding his rookie and second year where he was 11 and 9 and 14 and 11) is a "very good role player."  But given that basketball reference puts him at just below a 50% chance to make the Hall of Fame I'd argue he is much more than that, or that there are very few people in the history of basketball who have been more than that, I guess.

OK, wades, you've recited all of those stats for Love.

Now I ask you to use your considerable basketball knowledge and powers of observation. Do you really think that, since he's been in Cleveland, Love has been more than a "very good role player" and/or that he has played like a coin-flip Hall of Famer?

It's OK if you say yes to both of those. That merely would mean we disagree.

I mean, I'm a tough grader. I've said that if the all-time 50 were chosen today, Pippen very possibly would get left out. But I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

I'd also say both Grant and Rodman were "very good role players" who helped MJ win titles. Grant could defend like nobody's business and he ran like a thoroughbred. Rodman might have been the greatest pound-for-pound rebounder ever (he certainly was the best rebounder of his era), as well as a great defender.

BTW, I am not saying Grant was "better" than Love. They are different players. For Grant's era, he likely was a better player than Love would have been, because PFs didn't step out and shoot 3s then. Now, Love is valuable in great part because he can spread the floor.

[wadesworld]

OK, wades, you've recited all of those stats for Love.

Now I ask you to use your considerable basketball knowledge and powers of observation. Do you really think that, since he's been in Cleveland, Love has been more than a "very good role player" and/or that he has played like a coin-flip Hall of Famer?

It's OK if you say yes to both of those. That merely would mean we disagree.

I mean, I'm a tough grader. I've said that if the all-time 50 were chosen today, Pippen very possibly would get left out. But I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

I'd also say both Grant and Rodman were "very good role players" who helped MJ win titles. Grant could defend like nobody's business and he ran like a thoroughbred. Rodman might have been the greatest pound-for-pound rebounder ever (he certainly was the best rebounder of his era), as well as a great defender.

BTW, I am not saying Grant was "better" than Love. They are different players. For Grant's era, he likely was a better player than Love would have been, because PFs didn't step out and shoot 3s then. Now, Love is valuable in great part because he can spread the floor.

I think Love went from being an "overrated" player in MN to being one of the most underrated players in the NBA while in Cleveland.  He's averaged 17 and 10 in his 3 years while shooting 37% from 3.  I would LOVE to have him on the Bucks roster.  Not a good defender but has improved in that area to where he is serviceable and very good everywhere else.  Would do wonders next to Giannis just like he does wonders next to LBJ.