NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[JWags85]

I'm not upset about it, I simply don't get it. What do they think they're accomplishing? If you want to make a difference get out in your community and put in time volunteering. Raise awareness. Simply "objecting" to the National Anthem doesn't seem to have achieved anything. If anything, things have gotten worse. And, in Kaepernik's case, not using your vote certainly isn't helping given who is in office.

Set up meetings with law enforcement if you think that's the main issue. Volunteer and speak to people where gun violence is prevalent if you think that's the issue. Kneeling for the National Anthem prior to a 3 hour game that you get paid $1M in those 3 hours? Meh. Certainly doesn't shift my opinion on anything.

His "protest" on the football field generates far more publicity than his myriad community and charity works. The national media lathers itself with the kneeling but has little interest in his $1MM pledge in the last year, or the plane he helped fund and send to Somalia. Might not shift opinion but it's an attempt to raise awareness. Reception of said awareness varies (shrug)

[wadesworld]

His "protest" on the football field generates far more publicity than his myriad community and charity works. The national media lathers itself with the kneeling but has little interest in his $1MM pledge in the last year, or the plane he helped fund and send to Somalia. Might not shift opinion but it's an attempt to raise awareness. Reception of said awareness varies (shrug)

What was his $1MM pledge to? Glad he does that if it's to a good cause and glad he sends a plane to Somalia.

That's kind of the exact point. He does these good things but nobody knows about them because he protests the National Anthem and that just pisses people off. What's kneeling accomplishing? Nothing positive. Just negative publicity and taking away publicity from the good he does. So maybe show the same respect for the country and for equality that you want shown to you during the National Anthem, do your good deeds, and when you get publicity for those good deeds use it as a platform to speak out against the injustices you believe are out there.

Getting mad that people get upset that multimillionaires playing a child's game are disrespecting the National Anthem is just as bad as the people who get mad at players disrespecting the National Anthem.

But hey, maybe all of those Browns players will be cut? Maybe Michael Bennet will be cut?

Of course not. They're good enough at playing football to make their teams. Kaepernik is not.

There are unquestionably some serious issues and injustices in this country. Disrespecting the National Anthem is not the solution. Or even a tippy toe step towards a solution. If anything (and it really is nothing, neither positive nor negative), it'll just create a greater divide.

[brewcity77]

I'm not upset about it, I simply don't get it. What do they think they're accomplishing? If you want to make a difference get out in your community and put in time volunteering. Raise awareness. Simply "objecting" to the National Anthem doesn't seem to have achieved anything. If anything, things have gotten worse. And, in Kaepernik's case, not using your vote certainly isn't helping given who is in office.

Set up meetings with law enforcement if you think that's the main issue. Volunteer and speak to people where gun violence is prevalent if you think that's the issue. Kneeling for the National Anthem prior to a 3 hour game that you get paid $1M in those 3 hours? Meh. Certainly doesn't shift my opinion on anything.

I have no idea about the individuals in question, but who's to say they aren't doing all that and more? It's a peaceful protest and still draws attention. It's a talking point here at work this morning. Whether it shifts opinions, it has kept people talking. I didn't think it'd be near this long lasting when Kaepernick first took the knee.

[wadesworld]

I have no idea about the individuals in question, but who's to say they aren't doing all that and more? It's a peaceful protest and still draws attention. It's a talking point here at work this morning. Whether it shifts opinions, it has kept people talking. I didn't think it'd be near this long lasting when Kaepernick first took the knee.

It's a talking point sure. But for what?

[GGGG]

What was his $1MM pledge to? Glad he does that if it's to a good cause and glad he sends a plane to Somalia.

That's kind of the exact point. He does these good things but nobody knows about them because he protests the National Anthem and that just pisses people off. What's kneeling accomplishing? Nothing positive. Just negative publicity and taking away publicity from the good he does. So maybe show the same respect for the country and for equality that you want shown to you during the National Anthem, do your good deeds, and when you get publicity for those good deeds use it as a platform to speak out against the injustices you believe are out there.

Getting mad that people get upset that multimillionaires playing a child's game are disrespecting the National Anthem is just as bad as the people who get mad at players disrespecting the National Anthem.

But hey, maybe all of those Browns players will be cut? Maybe Michael Bennet will be cut?

Of course not. They're good enough at playing football to make their teams. Kaepernik is not.

There are unquestionably some serious issues and injustices in this country. Disrespecting the National Anthem is not the solution. Or even a tippy toe step towards a solution. If anything (and it really is nothing, neither positive nor negative), it'll just create a greater divide.

I am 100% sure that Kaepernick would be on an NFL roster today if it weren't for the kneeling.  The idea that he isn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback is simply wrong when you see all the other craptastic quarterbacks that are out there right now.

[wadesworld]

I am 100% sure that Kaepernick would be on an NFL roster today if it weren't for the kneeling.  The idea that he isn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback is simply wrong when you see all the other craptastic quarterbacks that are out there right now.

While I think he might be "better" than some backup quarterbacks, I don't think it's the kneeling that is keeping him off of a roster, I think it's the inability to play as a pocket quarterback.  Sure, if you were forced to choose between Joe Callahan and Colin Kaepernick as your starting quarterback you would choose Kaepernick and create a spread option offense.  But Kaepernick isn't good enough to be a starter and run your offense around, so if I have to pick between Kaepernick and Callahan on the Packers roster to run the Packers offense in the event that Aaron Rodgers tweaks his calf muscle and is out for 2 weeks?  I'll take Callahan (and I'd take Hundley over Kaepernick regardless of what system I'm throwing him into).  The only reason Kaepernick was ever good was because he was a threat to keep the ball and run.  Sure, he could still break the pocket and take off a couple times a game, but when you don't have to scheme defensively for a spread option system, Kaepernick's dead duck throws are now getting picked off instead of having a wide receiver sit under them and wait for them to reach him while he's wide open.

Last season Aaron Rodgers was 3rd in the NFL in QB rushing yards, behind only Tyrod Taylor and Kaepernick.  There just aren't offensive systems that fit with Kaepernick's skillset in the NFL.  He was great for 3 years.  He no longer has a place in the NFL.  If he could help a team win he would.

[MerrittsMustache]

I am 100% sure that Kaepernick would be on an NFL roster today if it weren't for the kneeling.  The idea that he isn't good enough to be an NFL quarterback is simply wrong when you see all the other craptastic quarterbacks that are out there right now.

Correct. Kaepernick isn't on a roster because his protest means that he brings controversy and distraction and a media circus. NFL teams don't want to deal with those things from back-up players/fringe starters. Aside from Michael Vick (who was far superior player to Kap), can anyone name a controversial back-up QB? Put Newton/Prescott/Winston in Kap's spot and they're obviously still starting. Put EJ Manuel in Kap's spot and he's unemployed.

I do agree with wades that I just don't see what's being accomplished by taking a knee. Sure, it got people talking but what are the tangible results? What if Kap had written the name of a different charity or cause on his shoes or eye black or a headband each week? He would have gotten fined by the NFL for that and it would have made him a sympathetic figure who was being punished for bringing attention (and likely $$$) to positive causes and social issues. Instead, taking a knee made him look like an overpaid athlete who doesn't respect the country that allows him the opportunity to be an overpaid athlete. The protest became about Colin Kaepernick and not about social injustice.

[JWags85]

What was his $1MM pledge to? Glad he does that if it's to a good cause and glad he sends a plane to Somalia.

That's kind of the exact point. He does these good things but nobody knows about them because he protests the National Anthem and that just pisses people off. What's kneeling accomplishing? Nothing positive. Just negative publicity and taking away publicity from the good he does. So maybe show the same respect for the country and for equality that you want shown to you during the National Anthem, do your good deeds, and when you get publicity for those good deeds use it as a platform to speak out against the injustices you believe are out there.

He pledged to give away $1MM of his salary in 2017 to a variety of charities.  But you also highlighted the hypocrisy of a lot of people's complaints about him.

"Dont just protest, actually do something"
(all his actions off the field are highlighted)
"Well...go about your actions and concerns in a different way"

I certainly don't agree with all he's done, the voting issue and the socks were both bad looks.  But I also don't agree that fundamental systemic change occurs from people quietly and humbly working in the background.

[Jockey]

But hey, maybe all of those Browns players will be cut? Maybe Michael Bennet will be cut?

Of course not. They're good enough at playing football to make their teams. Kaepernik is not.

You really don't think Kaepernik is one of the 60 best QBs around? He is better than ANY Bear QB.

[rocket surgeon]

    "can anyone name a controversial back-up QB?"

   yes-t.j. rubley-packers-1995-the audible heard around the world-i think his bags were packed before he hit the locker room

[MUBurrow]

What was his $1MM pledge to? Glad he does that if it's to a good cause and glad he sends a plane to Somalia.

That's kind of the exact point. He does these good things but nobody knows about them because he protests the National Anthem and that just pisses people off. What's kneeling accomplishing? Nothing positive. Just negative publicity and taking away publicity from the good he does. So maybe show the same respect for the country and for equality that you want shown to you during the National Anthem, do your good deeds, and when you get publicity for those good deeds use it as a platform to speak out against the injustices you believe are out there.

Getting mad that people get upset that multimillionaires playing a child's game are disrespecting the National Anthem is just as bad as the people who get mad at players disrespecting the National Anthem.

...

There are unquestionably some serious issues and injustices in this country. Disrespecting the National Anthem is not the solution. Or even a tippy toe step towards a solution. If anything (and it really is nothing, neither positive nor negative), it'll just create a greater divide.

The problem with this is that it totally looks past what its actually like to be a black guy in America, and ignores that the protest, in addition to "trying to accomplish" greater goals, is also a reflection of how Kaepernick actually feels. I truly don't understand how after seeing the response of the President of the United States to Charlottesville, the takeaway from Kaep, et. al. kneeling during the anthem can be that its "disrespectful."

[wadesworld]

The problem with this is that it totally looks past what its actually like to be a black guy in America, and ignores that the protest, in addition to "trying to accomplish" greater goals, is also a reflection of how Kaepernick actually feels. I truly don't understand how after seeing the response of the President of the United States to Charlottesville, the takeaway from Kaep, et. al. kneeling during the anthem can be that its "disrespectful."

The National Anthem has never had anything to do with the president or a tribute to the president.  Kneeling during the National Anthem is absolutely disrespectful.  And that's the problem.  Their "solution" to injustice in America is to kneel during the National Anthem, and since they've begun this "protest" things have only gotten worse (which I don't think is because of the "protests" by athletes kneeling, but it also isn't helping).  People can say that it's wrong to say someone should "go about [their] actions and concerns differently," but when they're going about those actions and concerns and it's doing absolutely nothing to help the situation, they probably should do just that.

Just one man's opinion.  But when I am trying to fix something I see as a problem and what I'm doing clearly isn't working, I don't just try to ratchet up the intensity with which I am doing it.  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

[MUBurrow]

The National Anthem has never had anything to do with the president or a tribute to the president.  Kneeling during the National Anthem is absolutely disrespectful.  And that's the problem.  Their "solution" to injustice in America is to kneel during the National Anthem, and since they've begun this "protest" things have only gotten worse (which I don't think is because of the "protests" by athletes kneeling, but it also isn't helping).  People can say that it's wrong to say someone should "go about [their] actions and concerns differently," but when they're going about those actions and concerns and it's doing absolutely nothing to help the situation, they probably should do just that.

Just one man's opinion.  But when I am trying to fix something I see as a problem and what I'm doing clearly isn't working, I don't just try to ratchet up the intensity with which I am doing it.  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

I'll give my two cents and then back off, lest I get mad online, but to be frank, I just think this is disingenuous. This isn't about how they're "going about solving the problem." Its about the fact that a wide segment of society, for self-serving reasons, doesn't see the problem as a problem, while paying lip service to the problem. I'm dubious of the claim that if Kaep or BLM "went about their business differently" they'd suddenly find society writ large a more sympathetic audience.

Every venue that is used for this sort of thing - whether the national anthem at sporting events, marches that disrupt traffic, strikes, the 1968 olympics, and so on, somehow "aren't the right way to go about things" as they are happening. And the resistance to the message is then used as evidence that the message must be wrong. Its akin to saying "well shucks, people would be more sympathetic if they hadn't refused to get out of the road - those protests are just turning people against them!" Meanwhile, when its convenient, the anthem, flag, and other symbols, somehow represent only the best of what America stands for, but when convenient, cease to represent its current institutions or leadership.

Edited because I'll admit that I went too far in my hose "example" by implicating active physical opposition to the right to protest, and thereby undermined my own argument.

[Pakuni]

I do agree with wades that I just don't see what's being accomplished by taking a knee. Sure, it got people talking but what are the tangible results? 

Getting people talking about it is a tangible result.
Look, nothing Kaepernik does publicly or privately is going to bring substantive change to the problems he's addressing. He could donate his career earnings to some cause or another, and it won't change the issues he's addressing.
Changes like these are societal. And the way to create societal change is first and foremost to make people aware of the problem and get them talking about it. Talk changes minds, changes hearts, changes laws, if necessary. But none of that change comes out of thin air. First you need awareness and discussion.
To that end, Kaepernick's protest has been a massive success.
Also, change of this sort is very slow. It took a decade to get from Brown v. Board of Education and Rosa Parks to the Civil Rights Act.
To suggest Kap's protest is a failure because you don't see what you subjectively view as "tangible results" 11 months later misses the point/

Instead, taking a knee made him look like an overpaid athlete who doesn't respect the country that allows him the opportunity to be an overpaid athlete. The protest became about Colin Kaepernick and not about social injustice.

Oh, horse----.
This country doesn't "allow" anyone to be an overpaid athlete. They earn their money by being exceptional at something few others on the planet can do, and work in a field (i.e. sports) that's probably the closest thing to a true meritocracy we have on this planet. And the U.S. is hardly the only country that sees athletes plying their trade for huge money.

The protest became about Colin Kaepernick because his critics would rather discuss his hair, his girlfriend, his diet, his socks, his on-field performance, his relationship with his teammates, his relationship with his coaches, his T-shirts,his place on the depth chart,  his voting habits, his vacation destinations and just about anything except the issues that sparked his protest in the first place.

[wadesworld]

Getting people talking about it is a tangible result.
Look, nothing Kaepernik does publicly or privately is going to bring substantive change to the problems he's addressing. He could donate his career earnings to some cause or another, and it won't change the issues he's addressing.
Changes like these are societal. And the way to create societal change is first and foremost to make people aware of the problem and get them talking about it. Talk changes minds, changes hearts, changes laws, if necessary. But none of that change comes out of thin air. First you need awareness and discussion.
To that end, Kaepernick's protest has been a massive success.
Also, change of this sort is very slow. It took a decade to get from Brown v. Board of Education and Rosa Parks to the Civil Rights Act.
To suggest Kap's protest is a failure because you don't see what you subjectively view as "tangible results" 11 months later misses the point/


Oh, horse----.
This country doesn't "allow" anyone to be an overpaid athlete. They earn their money by being exceptional at something few others on the planet can do, and work in a field (i.e. sports) that's probably the closest thing to a true meritocracy we have on this planet. And the U.S. is hardly the only country that sees athletes plying their trade for huge money.

The protest became about Colin Kaepernick because his critics would rather discuss his hair, his girlfriend, his diet, his socks, his on-field performance, his relationship with his teammates, his relationship with his coaches, his T-shirts,his place on the depth chart,  his voting habits, his vacation destinations and just about anything except the issues that sparked his protest in the first place.

The first half of your response compared to the second half of your response are exactly why his "protest" is a failure.  IF his "protest" got people talking about the injustices in society then great, you are certainly correct that that is the first, biggest, and most necessary step to creating a change for the better.  And you are correct that his "protest" does have people talking.  The problem is that it doesn't have people talking about injustices in society, it simply has people talking about athletes kneeling during the National Anthem.  The "protests" are not hitting their "target."  That is where the issue is.

I'll give my two cents and then back off, lest I get mad online, but to be frank, I just think this is disingenuous. This isn't about how they're "going about solving the problem." Its about the fact that a wide segment of society, for self-serving reasons, doesn't see the problem as a problem, while paying lip service to the problem. I'm dubious of the claim that if Kaep or BLM "went about their business differently" they'd suddenly find society writ large a more sympathetic audience.

Every venue that is used for this sort of thing - whether the national anthem at sporting events, marches that disrupt traffic, strikes, the 1968 olympics, and so on, somehow "aren't the right way to go about things" as they are happening. And the resistance to the message is then used as evidence that the message must be wrong. Its akin to saying "well shucks, people would be more sympathetic if they hadn't refused to get out of the road - those protests are just turning people against them!" Meanwhile, when its convenient, the anthem, flag, and other symbols, somehow represent only the best of what America stands for, but when convenient, cease to represent its current institutions or leadership.

Edited because I'll admit that I went too far in my hose "example" by implicating active physical opposition to the right to protest, and thereby undermined my own argument.

Sorry, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the National Anthem is in tribute to the President of the USA.  If that's me simply using it when it's convenient for me and then ignoring it when it's not, so be it, but absolutely nothing in the lyrics or how it's used has anything to do with the leader of the country.

There are, unquestionably, more effective measures to go about creating change.  MLK and Malcolm X both were fighting for a similar cause.  One had a "more sympathetic audience."

If Kaepernik's (and the athletes who have followed his lead) "protests" were hitting their mark and had everyone talking about the changes needed to our society then good for him, he's getting it done.  Unfortunately that is not at all what the discussions about kneeling athletes are about.

[GGGG]

The first half of your response compared to the second half of your response are exactly why his "protest" is a failure.  IF his "protest" got people talking about the injustices in society then great, you are certainly correct that that is the first, biggest, and most necessary step to creating a change for the better.  And you are correct that his "protest" does have people talking.  The problem is that it doesn't have people talking about injustices in society, it simply has people talking about athletes kneeling during the National Anthem.  The "protests" are not hitting their "target."  That is where the issue is.

He's been kneeling for a year.  Do you expect vast societal change to occur in a year?

[wadesworld]

He's been kneeling for a year.  Do you expect vast societal change to occur in a year?

No, but I do expect that if the "protests" were to ever lead to legitimate discussions about what changes need to be made in society and how they might be made those discussions would have started by now.  Instead the discussion continues to simply be, "The amount of players kneeling is up to 11 for the Browns now!"  Or, "This Caucasian player put his hand on this kneeling African American's shoulder!"  It's not WHY are these players kneeling, it's simply, "Hey look, people are kneeling."

[Pakuni]

No, but I do expect that if the "protests" were to ever lead to legitimate discussions about what changes need to be made in society and how they might be made those discussions would have started by now

Are you saying there's a lack of discussion in this country about social justice, race relations and police relationships with the communities they serve?

[wadesworld]

Are you saying there's a lack of discussion in this country about social justice, race relations and police relationships with the communities they serve?

In this particular response?  No.  I'm saying that if Kaepernick and those that have followed were looking to create discussion and change it does not appear to be effective.

But I do think there is that.  And I don't think the way to go about creating those discussions is to wear pig socks with a police hat on it, refuse to vote, or kneel for the National Anthem.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Maybe we should stop playing the anthem before sporting events. I blame the Cubs for that.

[MerrittsMustache]

Getting people talking about it is a tangible result.
Look, nothing Kaepernik does publicly or privately is going to bring substantive change to the problems he's addressing. He could donate his career earnings to some cause or another, and it won't change the issues he's addressing.
Changes like these are societal. And the way to create societal change is first and foremost to make people aware of the problem and get them talking about it. Talk changes minds, changes hearts, changes laws, if necessary. But none of that change comes out of thin air. First you need awareness and discussion.
To that end, Kaepernick's protest has been a massive success.
Also, change of this sort is very slow. It took a decade to get from Brown v. Board of Education and Rosa Parks to the Civil Rights Act.
To suggest Kap's protest is a failure because you don't see what you subjectively view as "tangible results" 11 months later misses the point/

The protest became about Colin Kaepernick because his critics would rather discuss his hair, his girlfriend, his diet, his socks, his on-field performance, his relationship with his teammates, his relationship with his coaches, his T-shirts,his place on the depth chart,  his voting habits, his vacation destinations and just about anything except the issues that sparked his protest in the first place.

Yes, the protest got people talking but are they actually talking about the issues that matter? According to you...NO.

I agree with Colin Kaepernick that this country has major issues with racism and social injustice (it's hard not to). However, I don't think that his means of bringing awareness to this issue has hit its desired target.

I notice you left out the portion of my post with an alternative idea for raising awareness. Any thoughts on that?

[Pakuni]

In this particular response?  No.  I'm saying that if Kaepernick and those that have followed were looking to create discussion and change it does not appear to be effective.

Based on what? How are you measuring effectiveness here.
I could spend about 10 minutes on Google finding many, many stories and columns about social justice issues using Kaepernick's protest as a starting point.

And I don't think the way to go about creating those discussions is to wear pig socks with a police hat on it, refuse to vote, or kneel for the National Anthem.

Then what is the proper way, in your opinion?
Seems to me that one couldn't find many better forums to raise this issue than the most popular professional sports league in the country, one that consistently produces the most-watched television programming week after week during the season.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but virtually every person who's taken a strong stand for civil rights and social justice in this country has been told they were going about it the wrong way.
The truth is, asking politely for change has never worked in this country.

[GGGG]

Based on what? How are you measuring effectiveness here.
I could spend about 10 minutes on Google finding many, many stories and columns about social justice issues using Kaepernick's protest as a starting point.

Then what is the proper way, in your opinion?
Seems to me that one couldn't find many better forums to raise this issue than the most popular professional sports league in the country, one that consistently produces the most-watched television programming week after week during the season.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but virtually every person who's taken a strong stand for civil rights and social justice in this country has been told they were going about it the wrong way.
The truth is, asking politely for change has never worked in this country.

Rarely worked.  I would argue that it worked very well for the LGBTQ community.

But I agree with you in general. 

[Pakuni]

Yes, the protest got people talking but are they actually talking about the issues that matter? According to you...NO.

No, that's not what I said. I believe Kap's protest has created earnest discussion of the issues he's raised among many people ... and I'm sure I could find some of the many articles/columns online to prove this.
What I said it that it is his critics who willfully ignore the substantive issues to instead focus on his clothing, vegan diet, hair, etc.

I notice you left out the portion of my post with an alternative idea for raising awareness. Any thoughts on that?

I don't think wearing a headband or eyeblack espousing some charity would be nearly as successful in drawing public attention to an issue (and what charity do you suggest fort his cause, anyhow?). In fact, I think the vast majority of football fans wouldn't notice or care, and it certainly would go unseen by 100 percent of non-football fans.

[Pakuni]

Rarely worked.  I would argue that it worked very well for the LGBTQ community.

But I agree with you in general.

Two thoughts:
1. It's a very fair point, but gay activism hasn't always been especially polite. Act Up. Stonewall. White Night Riots. Large protests outside (and during) services at Catholic churches.
2. Gay people, possibly because it's easier for them to hide their identity easier than say, a person of color, have found it much easier historically (at least until they were outed) to ascend to positions of influence in this country, which makes it easier to work within the system for change rather than against it.