Oh Georgetown...

[GGGG]

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2017/08/01/georgetown-drops-out-of-loaded-pk80-tournament/

"The Hoyas dropped out of the field of the PK80, the star-studded November tournament in honor of Nike founder Phil Knight’s 80th birthday, on Tuesday."

They're being replaced by DePaul.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I don't really understand why.  Are they that worried about getting their butts kicked?

I know they're going to be bad this season, but why drop out of a nice non con tournament?  Doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

[brewcity77]

I don't really understand why.  Are they that worried about getting their butts kicked?

I know they're going to be bad this season, but why drop out of a nice non con tournament?  Doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

That's what it looked like on Twitter when I saw the Casual Hoya tweet. I think they're pretty much scared. How sad that DePaul has more confidence to go into that type of tournament than the mighty Hoyas?

[warriorchick]

That's what it looked like on Twitter when I saw the Casual Hoya tweet. I think they're pretty much scared. How sad that DePaul has more confidence to go into that type of tournament than the mighty Hoyas?

Well, DePaul has nothing to lose, so there's that...

[Benny B]

Ceding their place among the game’s greats is bad move for Georgetown, even more so if it comes from a place of fear of their ability to compete.

SMFH.  WTF?!?

Seriously, I'm trying to find the silver lining in having one of our conference's three flagship programs deciding to tuck tail.

[brewcity77]

Well, DePaul has nothing to lose, so there's that...

With a new coach and considering what they lost, I don't think GT does either. GT has missed two tournaments running, losing both seasons both years, and has missed three of the last four. People know what they are right now. Hiding away from the spotlight won't change that.

[barfolomew]

What message does this send to the freshmen and sophomores who you're going to need to lead in a few years?
I'm dying to know whose idea this was and the convos around it, but we probably never will.

[brewcity77]

This is probably because Ewing has his own shoe line and he can't stomach the thought of shilling for the company that MJ built.

[Dawson Rental]

What message does this send to the freshmen and sophomores who you're going to need to lead in a few years?
I'm dying to know whose idea this was and the convos around it, but we probably never will.

Does anyone know if prorams are limited in the number of preseason tournaments they can play in?  Can a school play in one every year?  If there's any limit, GU may be putting particiopation off until they have more to work with, and so they can use a future tournament as a recruiting aid.

[GGGG]

Does anyone know if prorams are limited in the number of preseason tournaments they can play in?  Can a school play in one every year?  If there's any limit, GU may be putting particiopation off until they have more to work with, and so they can use a future tournament as a recruiting aid.

Marquette plays in one every year.  They are valuable due to the number of games you can play. 

[Dawson Rental]

Marquette plays in one every year.  They are valuable due to the number of games you can play.

Maybe Patrick doesn't want to run with the big dogs until he's had some time to install his system?

Being in a preseason tournament every year is a sign of a quality program since they are by invitation.  For the sake of the Big East, let's hope that Georgetwon stays on that list.

[jsglow]

Very interesting.  I agree that GTown looks very weak in doing this.  It would be much better and take your beatdown like a man.  Ridicule worthy.

But let me ask a different question.  If my memory serves, teams are limited to one of these tournaments a year and that the tournament counts as 'one' game (or is it 'two'?) even if the tournament is like three games guaranteed.  That's why teams play them so they can get extra games.  (Somebody can please clarify all that.)  Now I can understand that GTown can simply 'go short' this year but I'm really surprised that DePaul still has the opportunity to slot in at this very late date.  Could DePaul still possibly be asking girls to the dance this close to Prom?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wow. Ewing just brought in a 2017 top 100 recruit too. There still going to be bad but not so bad that I think they should be running from challenges.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Wow. Ewing just brought in a 2017 top 100 recruit too. There still going to be bad but not so bad that I think they should be running from challenges.

Didn't they grab a few grad transfers too? Can't imagine those guys are too happy with the news.

[brewcity77]

But let me ask a different question.  If my memory serves, teams are limited to one of these tournaments a year and that the tournament counts as 'one' game (or is it 'two'?) even if the tournament is like three games guaranteed.  That's why teams play them so they can get extra games.  (Somebody can please clarify all that.)  Now I can understand that GTown can simply 'go short' this year but I'm really surprised that DePaul still has the opportunity to slot in at this very late date.  Could DePaul still possibly be asking girls to the dance this close to Prom?

Teams are limited to one tournament. It counts as one game but allows for up to four games played. So our tournament in Maui will have 3 games on the island and one on the mainland (Mount St. Mary's) but only count as one on the schedule.

The schedule allows you to play 10 non-conference games, but if one of those is an exempt tournament you can get 12-13 games.

Interestingly, last year North Carolina actually played 14 non-conference games. Not sure how that worked but one of the teams was Chaminade, who is D2 and thus doesn't count towards RPI. Maybe they were given an exemption because of it.

[jsglow]

Teams are limited to one tournament. It counts as one game but allows for up to four games played. So our tournament in Maui will have 3 games on the island and one on the mainland (Mount St. Mary's) but only count as one on the schedule.

The schedule allows you to play 10 non-conference games, but if one of those is an exempt tournament you can get 12-13 games.

Interestingly, last year North Carolina actually played 14 non-conference games. Not sure how that worked but one of the teams was Chaminade, who is D2 and thus doesn't count towards RPI. Maybe they were given an exemption because of it.

Okay, so assuming that DePaul has yet to announce their full non-con and further assuming that they had the actual tournament dates wide open, they would be in position to accept a late invite.  I suppose they could also 'un-invite' a previously purchased buy game writing them a check to simply go away.

I'll say it again.  I find GTown's decision incredulous.  Very weak.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Teams are limited to one tournament. It counts as one game but allows for up to four games played. So our tournament in Maui will have 3 games on the island and one on the mainland (Mount St. Mary's) but only count as one on the schedule.

The schedule allows you to play 10 non-conference games, but if one of those is an exempt tournament you can get 12-13 games.

Interestingly, last year North Carolina actually played 14 non-conference games. Not sure how that worked but one of the teams was Chaminade, who is D2 and thus doesn't count towards RPI. Maybe they were given an exemption because of it.

Was Chaminade their opening game in Maui?

[Ellenson Guerrero]

It seems like Hoya fans don't have any explanation for this either: http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/thread/30418/georgetown-backs-out-pk80-tournament?page=8

[brewcity77]

Was Chaminade their opening game in Maui?

Yes, so they did know in advance they would have a D2 opponent on the schedule. Regardless, even if it's a D2 opponent, it is still part of the "1 game" included in the tournament. In the past, we have been involved in tournaments that only gave us 3 games instead of 4 and did not get any additional game as compensation. I suppose it wouldn't be the first time UNC got preferential treatment, if that's the case.

[Dawson Rental]

Teams are limited to one tournament. It counts as one game but allows for up to four games played. So our tournament in Maui will have 3 games on the island and one on the mainland (Mount St. Mary's) but only count as one on the schedule.

The schedule allows you to play 10 non-conference games, but if one of those is an exempt tournament you can get 12-13 games.

Interestingly, last year North Carolina actually played 14 non-conference games. Not sure how that worked but one of the teams was Chaminade, who is D2 and thus doesn't count towards RPI. Maybe they were given an exemption because of it.

If Chaminade wasn't a tournament game, maybe they were an exhibition game?

answered

[GGGG]

I think this is most disheartening from a fan's perspective.  Could you imagine if MU pulled out of its tournament in Wojo's first year, only to play a couple crap games?  Not that it was a top level tournament, but those games are part of the fun of being a fan.

[Dawson Rental]

I think this is most disheartening from a fan's perspective.  Could you imagine if MU pulled out of its tournament in Wojo's first year, only to play a couple crap games?  Not that it was a top level tournament, but those games are part of the fun of being a fan.

If Georgetwon managed an upset, the fans would be floating out of the arena.  And it'd be a legendary start for a new coach.  Ewing must think he's got a ton of new stuff to put in.

[jsglow]

This just in.  Casual Hoya reports that Georgetown has announced that it will forfeit each of their 18 Big East conference games in 2017-18.  Coach Ewing is quoted as saying, "We will use the January through March time period as an extended training camp in preparation for a highly competitive 2018-19 season.  Full season ticket holders will enjoy reruns of our 1984 national championship on the Jumbotron in lieu of our games."  Continuing contributions to the Blue & Gray fund are required to maintain your season ticket seats for 2018-19.

[brewcity77]

I think this is most disheartening from a fan's perspective.  Could you imagine if MU pulled out of its tournament in Wojo's first year, only to play a couple crap games?  Not that it was a top level tournament, but those games are part of the fun of being a fan.

Agreed. We were underdogs against both Georgia Tech and Tennessee. We won those games and got both Carlino's 38-point blitzkrieg and Duane Wilson's 30-point coming out party. Granted, bigger programs in this tournament, but all it takes is one win in a game like that to be a highlight of the season like those two games were.

[frozena pizza]

If Georgetwon managed an upset, the fans would be floating out of the arena.  And it'd be a legendary start for a new coach.  Ewing must think he's got a ton of new stuff to put in.

Exactly.  No one would have cared if they got blown out by even a decent team but if they got a big upset (which can always happen that time of year) people would be really stoked for the season.  In other words, just like DePaul they had nothing to lose.  Very weak move.

[GGGG]

Georgetown message boards are funny.  One guy thought they just wanted their players to be able to go home over Thanksgiving.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I hope the Hoya guys chimes in soon to tell us he expects them to be a 2 seed again this year.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

The only reasonable explanation I've heard is that Ewing doesn't want to go to a Nike event because if his own shoe company.

Who knows, maybe Jordan an Georgetown are on the outs.

[jsglow]

I hope the Hoya guys chimes in soon to tell us he expects them to be a 2 seed again this year.

  I thought the same thing.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just saw this on the Hoya board:

It's August 1 and Georgetown has exactly one non-conference game scheduled. Nearly 100 schools have already finalized schedules and another 100-150 have partial schedules. No other school save Syracuse lists Georgetown on their schedule.

If this is true they are going to have a really brutal non-conference schedule, which is bad news for the rest of the Big East.

[GooooMarquette]

Bad look for GTown.  Take your lumps your first couple of seasons, maybe pull off some memorable upsets along the way, and get valuable experience for the new players.

Or start making calls to the RPI 200-300 crowd....

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I just feel like there has to be more to the story here.

[Spotcheck Billy]

IMO it looks even worse for Ewing to have waited until now to announce this instead of making this known back in April.

[mu03eng]

Live look in at Georgetown program:


What Scoop would look like if this bull$hit were pulled in year one of anyone after Crean:

[Herman Cain]

I think it benefited The Johnnies and Mullin when they stuck to their hard schedule their first season, they were a much improved team last year and look to be on the uptrend again this year.

Georgetown would benefit from taking the same approach the Johnnies did and taking the necessary medicine.  At a minimum it always helps recruiting to say your playing top notch opponents every year. In addition Georgetowns problem is recent years is too many loses to weak teams in Non conference. I think they are better off playing quality.

[The Lens]

DePaul dropped out of the Wooden Legacy to join the PK Invite.  They are being replaced by Sacramento State.  Wooden Legacy is owned by ESPN and I think ESPN is a host of the PK Invite. 

With all things college basketball, ESPN's fingerprints are very much all over this.

[naginiF]

What Scoop would look like if this bull$hit were pulled in year one of anyone after Crean:

Isn't that close to what we looked like after Wojo's SOS the first two years?

[brewcity77]

If this is true they are going to have a really brutal non-conference schedule, which is bad news for the rest of the Big East.

I don't believe that for a second. Just because they haven't announced their schedule doesn't mean they don't have other games scheduled. Now maybe they haven't found the other games, but it seems highly unlikely it will be Syracuse and 9 buy games.

Though if it is, and the pulled out of the PK80, that's even worse.

[Jay Bee]

Teams are limited to one tournament. It counts as one game but allows for up to four games played. So our tournament in Maui will have 3 games on the island and one on the mainland (Mount St. Mary's) but only count as one on the schedule.

The schedule allows you to play 10 non-conference games, but if one of those is an exempt tournament you can get 12-13 games.

Interestingly, last year North Carolina actually played 14 non-conference games. Not sure how that worked but one of the teams was Chaminade, who is D2 and thus doesn't count towards RPI. Maybe they were given an exemption because of it.

Not quite right. I'll try to explain the schedule maximums as well as the UNC matter.

First, you can play either 29 games if you're not in a qualified exempt tourney... or you can play 27 games, plus a qualified exempt tourney. This tourney could be 2, 3 or 4 games. The rules have nothing to do, directly, with nonconference games.

In MU's case, where they have 18 conference games, they can either play up to 11 nonconference games and not participate in a qualified exempt tourney... OR the norm.. which is play up to 9 nonconference games, plus a qualified exempt tourney, which may be 2, 3 or 4 games.

Now, regarding UNC and their 32 game regular season (including one against a non-DI school)... their "extra" game appears to have nothing to do with the Maui tournament. Rather, they scheduled a game before it at Hawaii, a D-I member institution.

Section 17.3.5.3(f) is the "Regular-Season Contest Against Alaska/Hawaii Member" annual exemption. By rule, one regular-season game in Hawaii or Alaska versus a member institution located in that state may be excluded from the season-max number.

So, it was a non-tourney game at Hawaii that allowed UNC to have 32 regular season games.

 

[brewcity77]

Not quite right. I'll try to explain the schedule maximums as well as the UNC matter.

First, you can play either 29 games if you're not in a qualified exempt tourney... or you can play 27 games, plus a qualified exempt tourney. This tourney could be 2, 3 or 4 games. The rules have nothing to do, directly, with nonconference games.

In MU's case, where they have 18 conference games, they can either play up to 11 nonconference games and not participate in a qualified exempt tourney... OR the norm.. which is play up to 9 nonconference games, plus a qualified exempt tourney, which may be 2, 3 or 4 games.

Now, regarding UNC and their 32 game regular season (including one against a non-DI school)... their "extra" game appears to have nothing to do with the Maui tournament. Rather, they scheduled a game before it at Hawaii, a D-I member institution.

Section 17.3.5.3(f) is the "Regular-Season Contest Against Alaska/Hawaii Member" annual exemption. By rule, one regular-season game in Hawaii or Alaska versus a member institution located in that state may be excluded from the season-max number.

So, it was a non-tourney game at Hawaii that allowed UNC to have 32 regular season games.

Thanks for the clarification. So play a road game at Hawaii (which I believe is the only D1 school in either of those states) and you get an extra. Too bad MU didn't do the same this year.

Looks like Illinois did the same thing before Maui in 2012-13.

[jsglow]

Perhaps this was done as an incentive to get teams over there to play them.  I can't imagine anyone making the trip without that special circumstance.

[Skitch]

Perhaps this was done as an incentive to get teams over there to play them.  I can't imagine anyone making the trip without that special circumstance.

I'm almost certain they used to do that to get football teams to play at Hawaii. I remember UW getting an extra game during the Dayne years when they played there.

[Dawson Rental]

The only reasonable explanation I've heard is that Ewing doesn't want to go to a Nike event because if his own shoe company.

Who knows, maybe Jordan an Georgetown are on the outs.

If a conflict of interest for the coach forced a program to give up that type of opportunity, it would be time to can the coach.  For cause.  No buyout.  I guess what I'm sayin' is that I don't see that as a reasonable explanation.

[dgies9156]

What Scoop would look like if this bull$hit were pulled in year one of anyone after Crean:

What Scoop thinks of Wojo -- or anyone else for that matter -- until we win our next national championship.

[cheesey]

This is probably because Ewing has his own shoe line and he can't stomach the thought of shilling for the company that MJ built.

Or it may be the pressure Georgetown is receiving from their students

http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/01/03/university-allows-nike-contract-to-expire-while-protesters-face-student-conduct-meetings/

[StillAWarrior]

If a conflict of interest for the coach forced a program to give up that type of opportunity, it would be time to can the coach.  For cause.  No buyout.  I guess what I'm sayin' is that I don't see that as a reasonable explanation.

Yeah, I'm with you on that.  I think it was a bad move to pull out of the tournament, but I really don't think it had anything to do with the shoes.  If Ewing cared that much about not shilling for Nike, he wouldn't have taken the job at one of Nike/Jordan's flagship schools.  He knew at the time that the opportunity was much, much bigger than a shoe allegiance, and I doubt he's lost sight of that in the ensuing months.

My money is on him thinking they'd be humiliated if they played in the tournament -- and somehow not realizing that pulling out would be even more humiliating.

[StillAWarrior]

Or it may be the pressure Georgetown is receiving from their students

http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/01/03/university-allows-nike-contract-to-expire-while-protesters-face-student-conduct-meetings/

Wow...I wasn't aware of that.  Interesting.  For purely personal reasons, I hope they re-sign with Nike.

Edited to add:  After further review, I see what most people probably realized on the first reading - this agreement that expired was the licensing deal, not the sponsorship deal.

[jsglow]

Yikes.  A sit-in protest in the President's office?  I'd hand them their transcript and a bottle of water on their way out the door and off the campus.  Attending a university is not some right.  Bye.

I see that this all occurred last winter.  Anyone know where this whole contract thing stands today?

[StillAWarrior]

Yikes.  A sit-in protest in the President's office?  I'd hand them their transcript and a bottle of water on their way out the door and off the campus.  Attending a university is not some right.  Bye.

I see that this all occurred last winter.  Anyone know where this whole contract thing stands today?

I just checked their on-line store, and there appear to be a total of 10 Nike items left (and six of those are marked, "Few Left").  I'm guessing they don't have this worked out yet.

As far as I know, their sponsorship deal is still intact.

[GGGG]

Yikes.  A sit-in protest in the President's office?  I'd hand them their transcript and a bottle of water on their way out the door and off the campus.  Attending a university is not some right.  Bye.

There isn't a President in the world that would expel students for staging a sit-in.  It would be a PR nightmare and only make the situation worse.

[jsglow]

There isn't a President in the world that would expel students for staging a sit-in.  It would be a PR nightmare and only make the situation worse.

I'm sure you're right.  There isn't a university president in the world who would do that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yikes.  A sit-in protest in the President's office?  I'd hand them their transcript and a bottle of water on their way out the door and off the campus.  Attending a university is not some right.  Bye.

I see that this all occurred last winter.  Anyone know where this whole contract thing stands today?

That would be an overreaction. Students need to be held accountable but all these students did was trespass and it was at least for noble causes. Universities don't even expel most students found responsible for violent acts like assault and sexual assault.

[warriorchick]

What Scoop thinks of Wojo -- or anyone else for that matter -- until we win our next national championship.

Wow, that's harsh.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There isn't a President in the world that would expel students for staging a sit-in.  It would be a PR nightmare and only make the situation worse.

While I agree it would be a terrible idea....that doesn't mean that some university president's wouldn't do it. Some aren't very good at PR and don't listen to their general counsel.

[GGGG]

While I agree it would be a terrible idea....that doesn't mean that some university president's wouldn't do it. Some aren't very good at PR and don't listen to their general counsel.

I was being hyperbolic. 

[jsglow]

That would be an overreaction. Students need to be held accountable but all these students did was trespass and it was at least for noble causes. Universities don't even expel most students found responsible for violent acts like assault and sexual assault.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you and I too was being over the top to make a point.  But their behavior was unacceptable on any level and appropriate sanctions were in order.

[GGGG]

Sit ins happen all the time.  It has happened here at the college where I work.  As long as they are peaceful and people aren't screaming, it's really not that big of a deal. 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1REZA_enUS728US728&q=sit+in+president%27s+office+college&oq=sit+in+president%27s+office+college&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i71k1l4.37239.37239.0.37524.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.suCGYC2KP1c

[jsglow]

Sit ins happen all the time.  It has happened here at the college where I work.  As long as they are peaceful and people aren't screaming, it's really not that big of a deal. 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1REZA_enUS728US728&q=sit+in+president%27s+office+college&oq=sit+in+president%27s+office+college&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i71k1l4.37239.37239.0.37524.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.suCGYC2KP1c

Of course, the problem occurs when civility is lost or the free exchange of ideas is quashed.  And let's agree that a university campus environment is actually the best place for that.  We don't need to take this too far down the rat hole, I'm sure.

[Loose Cannon]

What Scoop thinks of Wojo -- or anyone else for that matter -- until we win our next national championship.

Have a Great Day.

[GGGG]

Of course, the problem occurs when civility is lost or the free exchange of ideas is quashed. 

Yes.  The Boston Tea Party would have been so much more effective had the parties carried on a rational debate about taxation policy in the colonies. 

[GooooMarquette]

Yes.  The Boston Tea Party would have been so much more effective had the parties carried on a rational debate about taxation policy in the colonies.

The Boston Tea Party occurred because free exchange of ideas was quashed.

[GGGG]

The Boston Tea Party occurred because free exchange of ideas was quashed.

Exactly.

[The Equalizer]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.  I think it was a bad move to pull out of the tournament, but I really don't think it had anything to do with the shoes.  If Ewing cared that much about not shilling for Nike, he wouldn't have taken the job at one of Nike/Jordan's flagship schools.  He knew at the time that the opportunity was much, much bigger than a shoe allegiance, and I doubt he's lost sight of that in the ensuing months.

My money is on him thinking they'd be humiliated if they played in the tournament -- and somehow not realizing that pulling out would be even more humiliating.

Except it's not more humiliating.

Only a handful of true fanatics are even going to notice the announcement about dropping a pre-conference tournament, made in August, when most people aren't paying attention. The average fan likely didn't even had a clue that Georgetown was playing in this tournament, no less be able to form an opinion about them dropping out. 

However, by November, even casual fans are paying attention. A whole lot of people, not to mention the national media, are going to notice consecutive 30+ point blowouts.

The rest of the league should extent thanks to the Hoyas.  We won't be tagged with an 0-8 record added to our opponents SOS rating based on their performance. 

[StillAWarrior]

Except it's not more humiliating.

Only a handful of true fanatics are even going to notice the announcement about dropping a pre-conference tournament, made in August, when most people aren't paying attention. The average fan likely didn't even had a clue that Georgetown was playing in this tournament, no less be able to form an opinion about them dropping out. 

However, by November, even casual fans are paying attention. A whole lot of people, not to mention the national media, are going to notice consecutive 30+ point blowouts.

The rest of the league should extent thanks to the Hoyas.  We won't be tagged with an 0-8 record added to our opponents SOS rating based on their performance.

Actually, I think that's fair.  You're right.


At this point, I think the more interesting question is whether this is somehow related to the relationship between Georgetown and Nike.  Not because of Ewing's preferences -- I don't buy into that at all -- but because of the expired licensing agreement.

[DFW HOYA]

At this point, I think the more interesting question is whether this is somehow related to the relationship between Georgetown and Nike.  Not because of Ewing's preferences -- I don't buy into that at all -- but because of the expired licensing agreement.

Occam's Razor: Georgetown dropped out because Ewing didn't want to lose three games.