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Author Topic: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college  (Read 17323 times)

Benny B

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2017, 10:07:20 AM »
So I heard a presentation yesterday from an enrollment management firm that is considered the top of the industry.  Some things they said:

1. Students and parents are seeing through the ranking game.  Too many services providing too many rankings are decreasing their utility.

2.  They are also much more concerned about "outcome based statistics" (job placement rate, graduate school admission rate) than they are about "income based statistics" (exclusivity rate).

3.  Everything about student recruitment these days is about efficiency.  Every effort is about weighing the marginal costs of the effort versus the marginal revenue.  Technology allows schools to be much more efficient than they have been previously.

Considering Marquette's "new" enrollment director has worked with this firm previously, Marquette has obviously adopted the same philosophies.  Smart move being on the forefront of student recruitment these days and not simply doing what worked 20 years ago.

I can speak specifically to COBA's being ahead of the curve and adopting the mentality of outcome statistics well over a decade ago... look no further than the AIM and Real Estate programs: 100% placement over the past 10 years, most into high-profile, well-paying job no less.

While the "Tier 1's" (and Northeastern) were predominantly focused on gaming the rankings in the late 90's and early 00's, the "Tier 2's" were passively climbing the rankings by focusing on ensuring students had the actual skills and experience to hit the ground running at graduation.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2017, 11:06:26 AM »
So I heard a presentation yesterday from an enrollment management firm that is considered the top of the industry.  Some things they said:

1. Students and parents are seeing through the ranking game.  Too many services providing too many rankings are decreasing their utility.

2.  They are also much more concerned about "outcome based statistics" (job placement rate, graduate school admission rate) than they are about "income based statistics" (exclusivity rate).

3.  Everything about student recruitment these days is about efficiency.  Every effort is about weighing the marginal costs of the effort versus the marginal revenue.  Technology allows schools to be much more efficient than they have been previously.

Considering Marquette's "new" enrollment director has worked with this firm previously, Marquette has obviously adopted the same philosophies.  Smart move being on the forefront of student recruitment these days and not simply doing what worked 20 years ago.

This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students.  People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.

The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents.  We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats. 
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.

Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made. 
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

warriorchick

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2017, 12:26:07 PM »
This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students.  People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.

The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents.  We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats. 
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.

Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made.

For the love of God, please stop using "we" when you talk about Marquette, especially in the academic sense.
Have some patience, FFS.

Disco Hippie

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2017, 09:07:19 PM »
I can speak specifically to COBA's being ahead of the curve and adopting the mentality of outcome statistics well over a decade ago... look no further than the AIM and Real Estate programs: 100% placement over the past 10 years, most into high-profile, well-paying job no less.

While the "Tier 1's" (and Northeastern) were predominantly focused on gaming the rankings in the late 90's and early 00's, the "Tier 2's" were passively climbing the rankings by focusing on ensuring students had the actual skills and experience to hit the ground running at graduation.

There is no doubt that the AIM program in particular as well as the Real Estate program have been tremendous successes, and the fact that more MU students are heading out east and getting jobs at top investment banks is proof of that.  I work in NYC and have seen that first hand over the last 10 years so that's the good news.  What is not good news is that those AIM students that aren't originally from metro NYC (and frankly even those who are) have to fight like dogs just for a chance of getting an interview at a top firm and are still at a tremendous disadvantage over students from more prestigious schools that don't have anything close to the strength of the AIM program because MU's brand is not strong enough out here and the alumni base is miniscule compared to Chicago, for example.  If it were not for the tireless efforts of our alumni in the area, these students wouldn't stand a chance of being considered for these opportunities despite the fact that they're every bit as talented as the Ivy and Patriot grads they're competing with. 

Most of the helpful alums I'm referring to were extraordinarily bright and went on to earn MBA's from top 10 schools.  I know many of these folks personally and most will grudgingly acknowledge that were it not for their blue chip MBA credential, they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting a job like that with only a Bachelors from Marquette 20 years ago, so the fact that some students are fortunate enough to secure these positions today right out of MU undergrad is definitely a step in the right direction.

That said, despite the tremendous success of the AIM program, no one out here that isn't affiliated with Marquette knows of its existence, so the overall strength of an institution's brand image is far more important than the strength of some esoteric academic program.  Marquette's US News ranking has not improved in the last 4 years despite the unprecedented success of its AIM and Real Estate programs and despite the fact that Marquette's finance program was ranked 17th nationally as recently as a year or two ago.

The unpleasant truth is that students from places like Williams, Middlebury, Bates, Colgate, etc. will be offered these prestigious jobs over someone from MU 9/10 times so the notion that overall rankings don't matter is nonsense.  Sad but true.






« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 11:07:47 AM by Disco Hippie »

Disco Hippie

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2017, 09:29:39 PM »
This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students.  People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.

The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents.  We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats. 
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.

Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made.

Both Sultan and Jackie make valid points here.  Like Jackie, I live in the northeast and while not totally sympatico with Jackie....I think his vision for MU while admirable, is a bit too ambitious and not realistic near term..... his articulation of the northeastern mindset is spot on.  My guess is that schools ranked in the US News top 40 probably don't need to hire these enrollment management firms in the first place.  At the end of the day it would be nice for MU to be in that position. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 10:44:25 PM by Disco Hippie »

GGGG

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »
Both Sultan and Jackie make valid points here.  Like Jackie, I live in the northeast and while not totally sympatico with Jackie....I think his vision for MU while admirable, is a bit too ambitious and not realistic near term..... his articulation of the northeastern mindset is spot on.  My guess is that schools ranked in the US News top 40 probably don't need to hire these enrollment management firms in the first place.  At the end of the day it would be nice for MU to be in that position. 


Top 10 maybe.  There are private schools in the top 40 that use these firms. 

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2017, 07:13:04 PM »

Top 10 maybe.  There are private schools in the top 40 that use these firms.
Would love to see us make this list of Universities. This is what we need to aspire to.
http://www.worldation.com/stories/29-hardest-colleges-america-get/
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

4everwarriors

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2017, 08:10:38 PM »
And eye two aspire ta de-flower Kate Upton, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2017, 08:16:31 PM »
And eye two aspire ta de-flower Kate Upton, hey?
I applaud you for having set the bar high. We need more of that kind of positive attitude.

ps Justin Verlander got their first. But it is the thought that matters.
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

warriorchick

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2017, 08:59:23 PM »
Would love to see us make this list of Universities. This is what we need to aspire to.
http://www.worldation.com/stories/29-hardest-colleges-america-get/

No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.

Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms. 

Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body.  They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.

And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods.  He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023.  The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.


Have some patience, FFS.

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2017, 09:48:50 PM »
No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.

Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms. 

Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body.  They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.

And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods.  He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023.  The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.
The former is an admirable goal,the latter should be tied to the former. We don't want just any diversity. I came from that world, and escaped it through hard work and had nothing handed to me.  That is why I am telling you it is a huge mistake to go down the path of becoming Chicago State North.  Very misguided notion by a bunch of  well meaning but guilt stricken white people.

Here is a report from another esteemed institution that is taking my approach, and getting the results MU seeks to achieve, which are increased enrollment and diversity. Exclusivity is the better way.   

http://uncnews.unc.edu/2017/08/18/carolina-welcomes-5158-new-undergraduate-students-campus/
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

jsglow

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2017, 11:02:52 PM »
The former is an admirable goal,the latter should be tied to the former. We don't want just any diversity. I came from that world, and escaped it through hard work and had nothing handed to me.  That is why I am telling you it is a huge mistake to go down the path of becoming Chicago State North.  Very misguided notion by a bunch of  well meaning but guilt stricken white people.

Here is a report from another esteemed institution that is taking my approach, and getting the results MU seeks to achieve, which are increased enrollment and diversity. Exclusivity is the better way.   

http://uncnews.unc.edu/2017/08/18/carolina-welcomes-5158-new-undergraduate-students-campus/

It has absolutely nothing to do with the supposed 'white guilt' you mention.  The ONLY growth segment over the next 10-15 years is Hispanic.  To succeed, a Midwest university needs to find a way to tap in.

One of the thing I appreciate about the new Admissions Dean is that he's all about analytics.  I mean serious analytics. There's no guesswork anymore.  No outdated notions.  It's practically regression analysis.  And this is pretty dramatically reshaping MU's admissions game plan.

The initial track record is impressive and he's earned the BOT's ear.  Reminds me of David Stearns if that makes sense.  Color me impressed.

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2017, 07:55:53 AM »
It has absolutely nothing to do with the supposed 'white guilt' you mention.  The ONLY growth segment over the next 10-15 years is Hispanic.  To succeed, a Midwest university needs to find a way to tap in.

One of the thing I appreciate about the new Admissions Dean is that he's all about analytics.  I mean serious analytics. There's no guesswork anymore.  No outdated notions.  It's practically regression analysis.  And this is pretty dramatically reshaping MU's admissions game plan.

The initial track record is impressive and he's earned the BOT's ear.  Reminds me of David Stearns if that makes sense.  Color me impressed.

The analysis the admission director is doing  is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out. 

I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here.  They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students.  If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.

I just recruited two full paying kids this year, one chose us over UW and the other over Illinois. One from a traditional Chicago suburban school and another from a top NYC Catholic.  I worked hard to make those sales. The MU admissions officer is LAZY and does not want to COMPETE for real prospects. For example ,I am working hard on recruiting a  family I know, from the northern Illinois suburbs  whose son has multiple offers from all over and is a good student. The mother, an african american computer scientist, and son are keen on our engineering. It takes time and effort to close on someone like this who has real choices.

You have to earn your way in life. Going after the bottom feeders is one of the worst strategies ever. All it will do is alienate your good paying customers from good families who are necessary to keep the school going.

If MU is truly hell bent for leather on diversity, then it needs to up its elite status. The better quality diversity kids have lots and lots of choices at schools much more highly rated than MU and don't have to pay.Again I will say the new strategy will be absolutely successful at one thing, which is creating Chicago State North.

Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

jsglow

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2017, 08:08:21 AM »
The analysis the admission director is doing  is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out. 

I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here.  They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students.  If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.

I just recruited two full paying kids this year, one chose us over UW and the other over Illinois. One from a traditional Chicago suburban school and another from a top NYC Catholic.  I worked hard to make those sales. The MU admissions officer is LAZY and does not want to COMPETE for real prospects. For example ,I am working hard on recruiting a  family I know, from the northern Illinois suburbs  whose son has multiple offers from all over and is a good student. The mother, an african american computer scientist, and son are keen on our engineering. It takes time and effort to close on someone like this who has real choices.

You have to earn your way in life. Going after the bottom feeders is one of the worst strategies ever. All it will do is alienate your good paying customers from good families who are necessary to keep the school going.

If MU is truly hell bent for leather on diversity, then it needs to up its elite status. The better quality diversity kids have lots and lots of choices at schools much more highly rated than MU and don't have to pay.Again I will say the new strategy will be absolutely successful at one thing, which is creating Chicago State North.



You know what Moon?  You know nothing about our university and aren't a stakeholder so I'll end this conversation by saying goodbye.

brewcity77

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2017, 08:19:19 AM »
The analysis the admission director is doing  is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out. 

I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here.  They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students.  If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.

This is certainly one of the most racist, appalling bits of prose ever posted on this site. If my non-Christian morals are disgusted, I can only imagine what a Jesuit would think after reading this filth.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2017, 08:21:55 AM »
This is certainly one of the most racist, appalling bits of prose ever posted on this site. If my non-Christian morals are disgusted, I can only imagine what a Jesuit would think after reading this filth.
I came from a very disadvantaged upbringing. People walked the other way when they saw me coming just because of the color of my skin. Don't talk to me about racist until you walked in my shoes.

I am just telling the truth and if it hurts your sensibility so be it.
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
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warriorchick

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2017, 08:23:26 AM »




              DO IT!!!!!
Have some patience, FFS.

Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2017, 08:28:10 AM »
You know what Moon?  You know nothing about our university and aren't a stakeholder so I'll end this conversation by saying goodbye.
You spend a lot of time and effort on the University and I have acknowledged previously that is to be respected. I do things in my own way and get good results that have value today and in the future for the University .  I am a doer not a voyeur. 
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2017, 09:18:09 AM »
MUFINY,  I really hope you are a person of color. Because even if with all the crap you've made up to try and win internet arguments,  pretending to be a race you're not would be a new low.

Regardless of your race,  you have zero understanding of the mission of Jesuit education.
TAMU

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brewcity77

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2017, 10:39:14 AM »
I came from a very disadvantaged upbringing. People walked the other way when they saw me coming just because of the color of my skin. Don't talk to me about racist until you walked in my shoes.

I am just telling the truth and if it hurts your sensibility so be it.

So what...people from disadvantaged upbringings can't be racist? You're the one that put the spade on the table. I'm just calling it what it is. You're the one that equated "street level Hispanics" to garbage.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2017, 02:08:12 PM »
MUFINY,  I really hope you are a person of color. Because even if with all the crap you've made up to try and win internet arguments,  pretending to be a race you're not would be a new low.

Regardless of your race,  you have zero understanding of the mission of Jesuit education.

I am from the Herman Cain camp. Not all of us colored folk want handouts or believe in the victim routine. We are all not bleeding heart liberals. Some of us even watch Fox News.

I worked my )7*%$ off lumping banana and meat loads for the truckers at the warehouses off Blue Mound back in the day.  One of the supervisors saw my work ethic  on the unloading dock and I got a unionized job in the warehouse. Since I was the low man on the totem pole( back in those non pc days that is what it was called) I was put in the freezer. In order not to freeze my &#$@^ off I set the all time record for freezer picking . Unfortunately, the union foreman ( a former MU football player who blew his knee out and was now driving a forklift) said , son that is not the way we do things here. You are to work for 15 minutes and take the rest of the hour off, as we have in the contract. That wised me up to the union and my goal was to be part of management. So I kept lumpin loads for extra money and saved my union earnings and that is how I paid for school. No freakin minority scholarship existed in those days.

Got good grades and ended up on Wall Street. Pure competition every day where no one cared what I looked like.  I eventually became a CEO on main street.  I did it all without affirmative action or people lowering standards for me and I am proud of that.  In fact on Wall Street I sat on the recruiting committees of a Bulge Bracket firm and a Major Bracket firm . I was the champion of  hiring people of all colors , creeds and sexual orientation; however, my firmly held position was to only hire the best. Not just hire tokens.  We have that same ideology in my company today. We only want winners not hangers on.
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2017, 02:40:05 PM »
MUFINY, are you an alum of Marquette? If you are, how would you say your Marquette experience helped you get into the position you are today?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 03:16:05 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2017, 09:01:17 AM »
moon man - I'm not going to ban you (this time) for having wildly flawed opinions.  However, I will ask that you refrain from posting those racist opinions on the forum, as they make the rest of us (and the site) look bad.  Further, your opinions can get MUScoop tagged as a "hate speech" site - and I'm not going to let bad eggs ruin this place..  So...cut it out.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2017, 09:10:45 AM »
45% of college aged students at the end of this horizon will be Hispanic.  A very Catholic lot.  MU seems to have the right strategy.

muwarrior69

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Re: Families in the Northeast pay twice as much for college
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2017, 09:57:30 AM »
No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.

Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms. 

Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body.  They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.

And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods.  He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023.  The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.

Hmm... I just invested 100K in a Vanguard 529 for my 6 year old grand daughter. At least now I know she has one mark against her if she applied to MU in 2029.