collapse

* Recent Posts

2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Plaque Lives Matter!
[Today at 01:02:54 AM]


45 minutes ago at the Dallas Westin by MuggsyB
[Today at 12:19:24 AM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by Plaque Lives Matter!
[Today at 12:10:57 AM]


2024 Transfer Portal by CountryRoads
[Today at 12:05:42 AM]


Are we still recruiting anyone for the 24-25 season. by Don_Kojis
[Today at 12:04:21 AM]


Where is Marquette? by marqfan22
[March 28, 2024, 09:29:52 PM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by Daniel
[March 28, 2024, 08:47:22 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?  (Read 26105 times)

drewm88

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1687
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2017, 03:34:01 PM »
Over the course of a 162 game season if a team wins 100 games they're usually better than the rest of the teams in their division, but it doesn't mean that one of the other teams in their division can't get hot and win 3 out of 5 games.

2015 NL Central Regular Season Standings
St. Louis 100 - 62
Pittsburgh 98 - 64
Chicago 97 - 65

Factoring in games against each other in the playoffs
St. Louis 101 - 65
Chicago 101 - 66
Pittsburgh 98 - 65

Cardinals were 3 games better than the Cubs over 162. Cubs were 2 games better than the Cardinals over 4.  Don't think you can make any argument of STL being better but Cubs "getting hot."

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2017, 03:37:24 PM »
Okay. Cubs fans really want 2015. Congrats, you were better in 2015 if you want it that bad. So you were better each of the last 2 years. Which makes up nearly all of your time being better than the Cardinals in the last 100 years.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3750
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2017, 07:50:59 PM »
I hate the Cardinals quite a bit more than I hate the Cubs.  For most my life the Cubs are one of the few organizations that have been nearly as irrelevant as the Brewers.  The Cardinals, however, have always been the team everyone was trying to catch.  Their fans, players, managers, and front office alike are by and large pompous d-bags.  But I'm not naïve enough to pretend that because one organization that has been more or less completely awful for over a century had 2 seasons where they were better than an organization that for decades has been the cream of the crop in the division they are suddenly a better organization.  They had 2 great years.  We are now half way through the season and they are a .500 team.  If they spend the next decade consistently competing for the division title and making WS runs while the Cardinals fall back to consistently missing the Playoffs then we can talk about the Cubs being a better organization that the Cardinals.  Until then it's not even close.

I was nearly 25 years away from being born in 1966 and I'm sure the game was very different, so I'm not certain I can really say who a better organization was back in the mid 60s.  But yes, the Giants are 100x the organization the Cubs are.  One bad year compared to one good year means very little in the grand scheme of things.  Maybe that's why those fan bases do become such pompous d bags.  Because when the Cubs finally win 1 WS title in 108 years they act like suddenly they're God's gift to baseball.  The Cubs over the last 3 years have been great.  They also were great in 2008 and 2 years later were last in the division.  They have a long, long way to go to compare to the Cardinals, or to the Giants.

Just because I call things for what they are doesn't mean it's blind Chicago hatred.  "Oh my gosh wadesworld, quit talking about Jay Cutler being bad, his arm is incredible, if he could just get an offensive coordinator to stay in place he'd be right up there with the best QBs in the league!  You're just such a blind Chicago hater if you can't see his only problem is the lack of a consistent system!"  (Oh wait, he's now calling football games from the booth).  "Oh my gosh wadesworld, you think that the Cubs winning the WS one time in the last 108 years doesn't make them the greatest organization in baseball!  Just blind hatred for all things Chicago obviously!"

No.  There's more to organizational success than 1 title.

What the Cubs organization was prior to the Ricketts family has no bearing on this conversation. It's about what it has become and what it will be moving forward. And there is no reason to think it won't be one of the best organizations in baseball for the foreseeable future.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:57:22 PM by Vander Blue Man Group »

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3750
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2017, 07:52:15 PM »
I would put my money on none of those 3 organizations winning a World Series in the next 5 years.  And 5 (or 2) years after that, I won't remember, nor care, who had more Playoff appearances or overall wins.

But if I had to pick 1 team to have what I would say is the "most success" (legitimate chances to win a title) I'd say the Giants.

What logical baseball reason do you have for picking the Giants in this scenario?

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22730
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2017, 08:02:44 PM »
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If the Cubs and the Cards had very similar histories in both the past decade and in the more distant past then sure, I think you could argue the Cubs are the better organization.  But the fact of the matter is the Cardinals won the division as recently as 2 years ago (something that I would put more stock in than a team winning the Wild Card, beating their division champion on the Divisional Round, and then losing in the Championship Round), won a World Series in the last decade, and are 4 years removed from their last World Series appearance.  Since 2000 they've made 12 Playoff appearances, won 2 World Series, and been in 2 other World Series.  Compare that to the Cubs who have 4 Playoff appearances, 1 World Series win, and no other WS appearances since 2000 and it's laughable to even consider the Cubs even remotely close to the Cardinals.  Again, if the Cubs go on to win 6 of the next 10 division titles and get another WS or 2 in there while the Cards are at best mediocre, sure, let's have the discussion.  Until the Cubs have 1 big season?  Come on.

OK. I'm good at agreeing to disagree! Take care.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2017, 08:06:33 PM »
What logical baseball reason do you have for picking the Giants in this scenario?

Because in 2008 they won 72 games and 2 years later they were World Series champions.  In 2013 they won 76 games and in 2014 they were World Series champions.  They've been there, they've done that.  If I had to put money on one of the Cardinals, Giants, or Cubs winning a WS in the next 5 years it'd be on the team that has been the most consistently successful over the past 10 years.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

real chili 83

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8654
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2017, 08:08:13 PM »
I'm delighted at this turn of Cub events.

For I am a St. Louis Cardinal fan.

We know the Cubs because our team has been playing the small and inadequate bears for more than 100 years. We know that for every flash of brilliance in Wrigley Field, there will be decades of futility.

We respect the Ricketts family because they're trying to bring the Cardinal Way to Wrigley Field. But we inevitably know that despite the family's best efforts, the Cubs will continue to be the Cubs.

In St. Louis, we know that at 36-40, the Cardinals are having a crappy year. That's true even though we're well within hailing distance of the NL Central Lead. Four games out and we're talking about firing our Manager and General Manager (and probably the head of player personnel).

Some think we're spoiled and that we're not true fans because we don't support our team through futility, like Cub Fans do. But folks, understand that we're demanding fans. We expect to win. We tolerate losing, but we do so with the expectation that our team and our players (yes, even though we don't own the team, we see them as "our" players) will do their best to win and that losing is not a permanent part of Cardinal lore.

After I buy you a shot of Crown at Soft Pines this summer, I am going to do my duty as a Cubs fan and kick you in the nuts.   :o;)


Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3750
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2017, 08:19:35 PM »
Because in 2008 they won 72 games and 2 years later they were World Series champions.  In 2013 they won 76 games and in 2014 they were World Series champions.  They've been there, they've done that.  If I had to put money on one of the Cardinals, Giants, or Cubs winning a WS in the next 5 years it'd be on the team that has been the most consistently successful over the past 10 years.

Well that's not a very bright approach.

real chili 83

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8654
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2017, 08:23:07 PM »

#UnleashSean

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2017, 08:23:26 PM »
Okay. Cubs fans really want 2015. Congrats, you were better in 2015 if you want it that bad. So you were better each of the last 2 years. Which makes up nearly all of your time being better than the Cardinals in the last 100 years.

03 08?

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2017, 08:31:05 PM »
03 08?

Right. So 2 of the 4ish years they've been better.

The fact Cubs fans actually think they have an argument for being better than the Cardinals organization says everything anyone needs to know about Chicago sports fans. It's not remotely close.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2017, 08:33:42 PM »
Well that's not a very bright approach.

Thanks for the advice. I think the Giants know what they're doing. Just like the Packers, Patriots, Spurs, etc.

But if we want to put a friendly Scoop wager on it I'm all for it. I'll take the Giants and you can pick one of the Cubs or Cards. Whatever team wins the most WS over the next 5 years wins the bet. Loser can donate money to a charity of the winner's choice. If neither team wins one neither person wins.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2017, 08:35:53 PM »
PS I saw an article at work from early this year that Arrieta's average fastball was down 2.6 MPH from last year to this year, the biggest drop in the majors of any starter by 0.9 MPH. Now that could've changed recently, but that is definitely one of those things that just makes you scratch your head...
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2017, 09:53:24 PM »
After I buy you a shot of Crown at Soft Pines this summer, I am going to do my duty as a Cubs fan and kick you in the nuts.   :o;)

I'm kind of a big dude LOL

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3750
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2017, 10:01:09 PM »
Thanks for the advice. I think the Giants know what they're doing. Just like the Packers, Patriots, Spurs, etc.

But if we want to put a friendly Scoop wager on it I'm all for it. I'll take the Giants and you can pick one of the Cubs or Cards. Whatever team wins the most WS over the next 5 years wins the bet. Loser can donate money to a charity of the winner's choice. If neither team wins one neither person wins.

I didn't say the Giants weren't well run. I just don't think looking at what they did from 2010-2016 is the best approach for predicting success over the next five years. Looking at the young talent they currently have, their system, current contracts and roster/payroll flexibility, and the division they play in are much better predictors.  With that in mind I'd take the Cubs.

Vander Blue Man Group

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3750
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2017, 10:05:16 PM »
Right. So 2 of the 4ish years they've been better.

The fact Cubs fans actually think they have an argument for being better than the Cardinals organization says everything anyone needs to know about Chicago sports fans. It's not remotely close.

As a Cubs fan, it's ridiculous to say the organization has been historically better than St. Louis. But to say that since Ricketts took over and Epstein has come on board that it is as good of or a better organization is completely legitimate.  That's not to denigrate St. Louis, either.

real chili 83

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8654
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2017, 10:14:40 PM »
The memory of this makes some Cardinal fans...

Twitch

Flinch

Foam at the mouth

Lose their bowels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34mz7wQKTB0

Cubs fans just smile
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:17:09 PM by real chili 83 »

real chili 83

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8654
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2017, 10:16:13 PM »
I'm kind of a big dude LOL

Ha.  SPW, you want to weigh in here?

jficke13

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2017, 10:43:53 PM »
I'm kind of a big dude LOL

In his defense, nut shots are the great equilizer

Plaque Lives Matter!

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2017, 11:47:40 PM »
PS I saw an article at work from early this year that Arrieta's average fastball was down 2.6 MPH from last year to this year, the biggest drop in the majors of any starter by 0.9 MPH. Now that could've changed recently, but that is definitely one of those things that just makes you scratch your head...


buckchuckler

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2017, 12:09:45 AM »
What logical baseball reason do you have for picking the Giants in this scenario?

Bochy and Sabean

dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2017, 07:57:07 AM »
In his defense, nut shots are the great equilizer

Possibly but advanced warning means being well protected.

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2017, 08:10:00 AM »
Right. So 2 of the 4ish years they've been better.

The fact Cubs fans actually think they have an argument for being better than the Cardinals organization says everything anyone needs to know about Chicago sports fans. It's not remotely close.

Where are the Cubs fans who are making this argument?

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2017, 08:26:57 AM »
As a Cubs fan, it's ridiculous to say the organization has been historically better than St. Louis. But to say that since Ricketts took over and Epstein has come on board that it is as good of or a better organization is completely legitimate.  That's not to denigrate St. Louis, either.

The Cubs have been the better organization for one whole year.  Definitely not "since Ricketts took over and Epstein has come on board."

Where are the Cubs fans who are making this argument?


So all the arguments from Cubs fans are...because they agree?  Interesting.

It's really not all that hard to comprehend.  The Cubs need to go roughly the next decade of consistently competing for WS titles with the Cardinals being mediocre for much of that decade to even be in the picture as on the same organizational level as the Cardinals.  Could they get there?  Sure.  Are they set up to be successful over the next decade?  Looks like they should be.  But am I just going to say, "Well, they won a WS and it looks like they're set up to succeed for a while, so forget the 108 years prior to that, the Cubs are right there with the Cards now?"  Nope.  It really has nothing to do with "being a blind Chicago sports hater" and everything to do with...well, the fact that the Cubs have largely been a joke of an organization for a century while the Cardinals have been one of the two best NL organizations.  How there can be any debate about that is completely baffling.  But I guess Chicago fans agree but just want to argue...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 08:28:55 AM by wadesworld »
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Cubs Fans, Worried Yet?
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
As a Cubs fan, it's ridiculous to say the organization has been historically better than St. Louis.

This statement, WHICH YOU QUOTED, goes against your argument. No matter how matter times you write it, there are no Cubs fans making the argument that the Cubs have been a better franchise than the Cardinals. The point is that the Cubs have been one of the best teams in baseball for the last 2 seasons and they're trending in the right direction. The Cardinals have fallen back the last 2 seasons, missing the postseason last year and likely doing the same this year. 

The Cubs have been the better organization for one whole year.  Definitely not "since Ricketts took over and Epstein has come on board."

So all the arguments from Cubs fans are...because they agree?  Interesting.

It's really not all that hard to comprehend.  The Cubs need to go roughly the next decade of consistently competing for WS titles with the Cardinals being mediocre for much of that decade to even be in the picture as on the same organizational level as the Cardinals.  Could they get there?  Sure.  Are they set up to be successful over the next decade?  Looks like they should be.  But am I just going to say, "Well, they won a WS and it looks like they're set up to succeed for a while, so forget the 108 years prior to that, the Cubs are right there with the Cards now?"  Nope.  It really has nothing to do with "being a blind Chicago sports hater" and everything to do with...well, the fact that the Cubs have largely been a joke of an organization for a century while the Cardinals have been one of the two best NL organizations.  How there can be any debate about that is completely baffling.  But I guess Chicago fans agree but just want to argue...

Since Theo took over, the Cubs have 1 NL Central title, a Wild Card berth, an NL Pennant and a World Series title (despite tanking for 3 of his 5 seasons) while the Cardinals have 3 NL Central titles, a Wild Card berth and a pennant. StL has the advantage in postseason appearances but the Cubs have the advantage in that they've won the World Series. The argument is "which franchise is in the better position right now and looks to be in a better position going forward" as opposed to your false claim that Cubs fans think their franchise has been better historically.