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Author Topic: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good  (Read 8634 times)

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #400 on: July 16, 2017, 12:54:43 PM »
Rocket, I don't know if you realize how your answer is coming off. When asked what you would do to help those in poverty your answer was "Nothing. The poor need to stop drinking, getting addicted, having unprotected sex, and being lazy." You used prettier words but that's what your answer was.

i never said "nothing.  ok, let me lay out what i do for those in poverty-pay my taxes, go to church/donate part of my hard earned salary(of which i put my self at risk with every patient i see, not to mention running the business) some of which goes toward those in need.  i donate some of my services and discounts to those less fortunate.  i've volunteered for the mission of mercy multiple times. all of this is not static; it's ongoing and it's how i roll

     as i believe i've said somewhere within this enormously enlightening thread, there is only so much we can do, yet it never seems to be enough.  all we can do is continue to help where we can.  we will never completely get rid of this problem. however, we need to continue to give people chances, to make some lives better and to give someone reasons to smile 

Jay Bee

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #401 on: July 16, 2017, 01:23:29 PM »
Some people seem to think wealth is a finite pie, and want to split it up equally.

It's frankly bizarre thinking to me.

I think when you attack "income inequality", you're going after a side effect of a mixture of great things, ok things, bad things. Go ahead and try to deal with the bad things, but a rallying cry of "we need income equality" is nuts.

Pakuni

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #402 on: July 16, 2017, 01:47:07 PM »
i never said "nothing.  ok, let me lay out what i do for those in poverty-pay my taxes, go to church/donate part of my hard earned salary(of which i put my self at risk with every patient i see, not to mention running the business) some of which goes toward those in need.  i donate some of my services and discounts to those less fortunate.  i've volunteered for the mission of mercy multiple times. all of this is not static; it's ongoing and it's how i roll

     as i believe i've said somewhere within this enormously enlightening thread, there is only so much we can do, yet it never seems to be enough.  all we can do is continue to help where we can.  we will never completely get rid of this problem. however, we need to continue to give people chances, to make some lives better and to give someone reasons to smile


Rocket ... I'm sure you do those things and that's generous of you. I have no doubt that, in those regards, you're helping in some small way.
The problem is when you and others negate your own efforts by supporting and endorsing policies and attitudes that limit the chances you say you want people to have.

Conservatives say "don't have kids until you're ready," but then limit access to birth control, oppose realistic sex education in schools, want to make abortion as difficult as possible (if not impossible), and maintain a system where lower classes have seen their wages stagnant at best for decades while those in the top 10-20 percent have seen significant growth.

You say "stay out of jail" yet support policies that put low-income people behind bars at a far greater rate than the rest of society, even for the same offense, and back a aprty that recently killed senetencing reform. And, of course, someone in jail can't work to support a family, creating more poverty.

You say "stay off drugs" but the GOP is proposing a health care plan that drastically cuts funding for treatment for poor addicts.

You say "go to job on time" yet back a GOP platform that wants to slash funding for public transportation.

You're a mass of contradictions.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #403 on: July 16, 2017, 02:07:00 PM »

Rocket ... I'm sure you do those things and that's generous of you. I have no doubt that, in those regards, you're helping in some small way.
The problem is when you and others negate your own efforts by supporting and endorsing policies and attitudes that limit the chances you say you want people to have.

Conservatives say "don't have kids until you're ready," but then limit access to birth control, oppose realistic sex education in schools, want to make abortion as difficult as possible (if not impossible), and maintain a system where lower classes have seen their wages stagnant at best for decades while those in the top 10-20 percent have seen significant growth.

You say "stay out of jail" yet support policies that put low-income people behind bars at a far greater rate than the rest of society, even for the same offense, and back a aprty that recently killed senetencing reform. And, of course, someone in jail can't work to support a family, creating more poverty.

You say "stay off drugs" but the GOP is proposing a health care plan that drastically cuts funding for treatment for poor addicts.

You say "go to job on time" yet back a GOP platform that wants to slash funding for public transportation.

You're a mass of contradictions.

Post of the week. And it's only Sunday.
This here is Archie Bunker of 704 Hauser Street. You take your big international bankers, they want to ... whaddya call ... masticate the people of this here nation like puppets on the wing, and then when they get their guns, turn us over to the Commies.

4or5Hauserstojudge

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #404 on: July 16, 2017, 03:51:36 PM »
Some people seem to think wealth is a finite pie, and want to split it up equally.

It's frankly bizarre thinking to me.

I think when you attack "income inequality", you're going after a side effect of a mixture of great things, ok things, bad things. Go ahead and try to deal with the bad things, but a rallying cry of "we need income equality" is nuts.

For business owners, of which I have been in that world, it is very simple. Those that push back seem to be non-business owners and want to feel good about something.  The basic laws of economics are at work. If wages go up, then prices go up.  If the market will not support those prices, the business has to cut costs, labor included through fewer jobs or fewer hours.

What isn't being addressed in the downstream momentum. If you force businesses to pay the hamburger guy $15, then the guy that was already making $15 at another job is demanding more money. The cascading dominoes kick in and we're right back where we started.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #405 on: July 16, 2017, 05:48:00 PM »
Because we had a three page conversation earlier in this thread about how this:

....is not how people end up in poverty. Top three reasons: 1. Born into it (well over 50 %) 2. Mental disability 3. Medical debt. All the things you listed are myths and stereotypes. They do happen but not nearly at the rates you are suggesting.

To focus on the drunk, addicted, and lazy poor is at best disingenuous and at worst a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise the impoverished. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Your response also seems to indicate that everyone is on their own. No one is deserving of any help. Its all on them.

This is the crux .. and the split.  Yes, being born poor, having a disability, and medical debt may be the top 3 indicators of being in poverty -- and (perhaps conveniently for the argument?)  they are all uncontrollable. 

But it's foolish to ignore rocket's (and others) factors for poverty:  Dropping out of High School.  Having children too early.  Substance abuse.   Committing crime / incarceration.    Those are all controllable.

So we have two sets of factors, all with differing weights.   The right focuses on the factors that are controllable, the left says that's unfair, focus on the uncontrollable.

Suggesting that one side has the right set of factors is where the folly begins.  They're all important.  You don't need one anti-poverty program.  You need a 100, each picking away at the heap.   If ~half those programs aren't squared at improving personal responsibility, we're going nowhere.

Joeys Tap

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #406 on: July 16, 2017, 07:32:56 PM »

Rocket ... I'm sure you do those things and that's generous of you. I have no doubt that, in those regards, you're helping in some small way.
The problem is when you and others negate your own efforts by supporting and endorsing policies and attitudes that limit the chances you say you want people to have.

Conservatives say "don't have kids until you're ready," but then limit access to birth control, oppose realistic sex education in schools, want to make abortion as difficult as possible (if not impossible), and maintain a system where lower classes have seen their wages stagnant at best for decades while those in the top 10-20 percent have seen significant growth.

You say "stay out of jail" yet support policies that put low-income people behind bars at a far greater rate than the rest of society, even for the same offense, and back a aprty that recently killed senetencing reform. And, of course, someone in jail can't work to support a family, creating more poverty.

You say "stay off drugs" but the GOP is proposing a health care plan that drastically cuts funding for treatment for poor addicts.

You say "go to job on time" yet back a GOP platform that wants to slash funding for public transportation.

You're a mass of contradictions.

The illegitimacy rate among blacks is well north of 70% in the US. It's by miles the biggest reason that a disproportionate percentage of blacks are poor, don't do well in school and end up in prison. There's nothing wrong with advocating for free birth control, more funding for mental health issues or better public transportation - but IMO the effect of those kinds of changes would barely move the needle.

There is work to be done regarding racial tolerance and basic fairness in our country. Unfortunately attitudes and institutions move slowly. But focusing on small (again, IMO) stuff like voter suppression (couldn't believe you raised that one in a previous spread) while ignoring the disintegration of the family unit is tantamount to complaining about the lack of cough medicine available in the middle of a worldwide plague.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 07:57:49 PM by Joeys Tap »

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #407 on: July 16, 2017, 07:42:06 PM »

Rocket ... I'm sure you do those things and that's generous of you. I have no doubt that, in those regards, you're helping in some small way.
The problem is when you and others negate your own efforts by supporting and endorsing policies and attitudes that limit the chances you say you want people to have.

Conservatives say "don't have kids until you're ready," but then limit access to birth control, oppose realistic sex education in schools, want to make abortion as difficult as possible (if not impossible), and maintain a system where lower classes have seen their wages stagnant at best for decades while those in the top 10-20 percent have seen significant growth.

You say "stay out of jail" yet support policies that put low-income people behind bars at a far greater rate than the rest of society, even for the same offense, and back a aprty that recently killed senetencing reform. And, of course, someone in jail can't work to support a family, creating more poverty.

You say "stay off drugs" but the GOP is proposing a health care plan that drastically cuts funding for treatment for poor addicts.

You say "go to job on time" yet back a GOP platform that wants to slash funding for public transportation.

You're a mass of contradictions.

  i understand the differences in belief systems, but pak-man, you are over-simplifying what many of us believe.  our belief system is a little more pragmatic than you make it out to be. this isn't a one size fits all argument.  if i were to try to characterize your side of the argument the same way you try to characterize ours, i would say you just want all the money made thrown into a big pool and then divided up so everyone get's the same amount across the board.  now we know that ain't real feasible, but...which brings me to my question to you-what do you propose we do to "eliminate" poverty? 

your post was very good, but it was just trumped(no pun) by hilltopper who put into words in 1 post that i have probably been struggling to say in 10

Pakuni

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #408 on: July 16, 2017, 07:45:45 PM »
This is the crux .. and the split.  Yes, being born poor, having a disability, and medical debt may be the top 3 indicators of being in poverty -- and (perhaps conveniently for the argument?)  they are all uncontrollable. 

But it's foolish to ignore rocket's (and others) factors for poverty:  Dropping out of High School.  Having children too early.  Substance abuse.   Committing crime / incarceration.    Those are all controllable.

So we have two sets of factors, all with differing weights.   The right focuses on the factors that are controllable, the left says that's unfair, focus on the uncontrollable.

Suggesting that one side has the right set of factors is where the folly begins.  They're all important.  You don't need one anti-poverty program.  You need a 100, each picking away at the heap.   If ~half those programs aren't squared at improving personal responsibility, we're going nowhere.

I don't entirely disagree, and I don't think anyone here has suggested it's only one (controllable) or the other (uncontrollable).

But I think it would be wrong to ignore that the "controllable" factors often are borne out of the "uncontrollable," or to pretend that they aren't related.
Why do kids born into poverty drop out significantly more often than kids born into middle and upper income? Why do poor kids wind up incarcerated more often. Why is teen and out-of-wedlock pregnancy more common in poorer communities?

As I see it, the only choices are that either the lower income kids are somehow inherently inclined to make these poor life choices/decisions, or that something about the circumstances into which they were born and raised makes those choices more likely.
I think that's where some here miss the boat ... they seem to believe that poor people are making bad decisions in the same environment, with the same advantages and disadvantages, and under the same circumstances that better off people are making good decisions.
(Clearly I'm talking about likely outcomes here ... plenty of rich kids make bad decisions and plenty of poor kids excel, but on average, it's heavily tilted).

mu_hilltopper

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #409 on: July 16, 2017, 08:07:57 PM »
I think I said it earlier .. all classes can make bad choices.   But I do see the value in believing that being born into poverty does NOT absolve you from making bad choices.   Everyone does indeed have a choice on their life's path, and this is where liberals (of which I believe I am one) go wrong believing conservatives are wrong on their demands for personal responsibility.

Conservatives (admittedly not 2017's version) want a contract with those in poverty .. meet some basic norms, and we'll fund programs that give you the opportunity for upward mobility.   The left sees this as not just wrong, but vicious.    Aaaaand welcome to 2017.


mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #410 on: July 16, 2017, 08:23:14 PM »
I think I said it earlier .. all classes can make bad choices.   But I do see the value in believing that being born into poverty does NOT absolve you from making bad choices.   Everyone does indeed have a choice on their life's path, and this is where liberals (of which I believe I am one) go wrong believing conservatives are wrong on their demands for personal responsibility.

Conservatives (admittedly not 2017's version) want a contract with those in poverty .. meet some basic norms, and we'll fund programs that give you the opportunity for upward mobility.   The left sees this as not just wrong, but vicious.    Aaaaand welcome to 2017.

Ultimately you are correct, all classes can make bad choices...however the have very limited ability to recover from poor choices. The rich have plenty of opportunities to overcome  mistakes in large part simply by institutional construct. Your left right comparison is spot on, the problem is that both sides don't actually see the issues, they see constituencies they need to retain.
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Jockey

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #411 on: July 16, 2017, 09:35:16 PM »
Some people seem to think wealth is a finite pie, and want to split it up equally.


I don't think anyone here or elsewhere that favors a higher minimum wage has ever said that.

But just make up an argument and then make up imaginary people who disagree with it.

Pakuni

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #412 on: July 16, 2017, 09:38:28 PM »
The illegitimacy rate among blacks is well north of 70% in the US. It's by miles the biggest reason that a disproportionate percentage of blacks are poor, don't do well in school and end up in prison. There's nothing wrong with advocating for free birth control, more funding for mental health issues or better public transportation - but IMO the effect of those kinds of changes would barely move the needle.

There is work to be done regarding racial tolerance and basic fairness in our country. Unfortunately attitudes and institutions move slowly. But focusing on small (again, IMO) stuff like voter suppression (couldn't believe you raised that one in a previous spread) while ignoring the disintegration of the family unit is tantamount to complaining about the lack of cough medicine available in the middle of a worldwide plague.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the context in which I cited voter suppression. By way of reminder, it was mentioned as one of many historical examples in which blacks have been denied basic rights in this country. I wasn't writing about voter suppression in 2017. I was writing about 1957. And 1927. And 1867.
Though I'm somewhat surprised to learn that in your mind being denied the right of self governance is tantamount to the sniffles.
Unalienable rights endowed by our creator? Pfft. Overrated.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with this ... black families were doing great until LBJ introduced welfare in the 1960s, setting in motion the disintegration of the black family. It's a favored conservative argument typically used to cast aside the responsibility of racist policies for the plight of black community's today It's also not correct.
I'll leave it to your fellow libertarian Steve Chapman to explain why (far better than I could):


They're right, up to a point. It's far from optimal for 72 percent of black children to be born out of wedlock. Social ills would diminish if there were more stable, two-parent black households.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it's incomplete. Worse, it's often used to gloss over intractable realities that continue to hinder black progress.
It's true that whites don't force blacks to have children out of wedlock. But it's wrong to suggest that whites bear no responsibility. Poverty is often the result of lack of access to good jobs or any jobs, and discrimination by employers didn't stop in 1965 and hasn't stopped yet.

...
It's tempting to blame African-American social ills on the modern welfare state, which allegedly breeds idleness. But most poor black households are poor despite having at least one adult who works. The welfare reform of the 1990s, which induced many recipients to take jobs, didn't reverse the decline of marriage.
Poor black neighborhoods are not the unassisted creation of poor black people but largely the malignant result of factors beyond their control. These places generate a vicious cycle of poverty and dysfunction that mires children in desperate conditions. Then we wonder why many of these kids end up unemployed, addicted to drugs, behind bars or murdered.
Moynihan's report contained a passage that conservatives rarely quote: "Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. ... The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right."


full column here:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-whites-blacks-families-moynihan-report-perspec-0226-jm-20150225-column.html
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:40:15 PM by Pakuni »

Joeys Tap

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #413 on: July 16, 2017, 10:45:57 PM »
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the context in which I cited voter suppression. By way of reminder, it was mentioned as one of many historical examples in which blacks have been denied basic rights in this country. I wasn't writing about voter suppression in 2017. I was writing about 1957. And 1927. And 1867.
Though I'm somewhat surprised to learn that in your mind being denied the right of self governance is tantamount to the sniffles.
Unalienable rights endowed by our creator? Pfft. Overrated.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with this ... black families were doing great until LBJ introduced welfare in the 1960s, setting in motion the disintegration of the black family. It's a favored conservative argument typically used to cast aside the responsibility of racist policies for the plight of black community's today It's also not correct.
I'll leave it to your fellow libertarian Steve Chapman to explain why (far better than I could):


They're right, up to a point. It's far from optimal for 72 percent of black children to be born out of wedlock. Social ills would diminish if there were more stable, two-parent black households.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it's incomplete. Worse, it's often used to gloss over intractable realities that continue to hinder black progress.
It's true that whites don't force blacks to have children out of wedlock. But it's wrong to suggest that whites bear no responsibility. Poverty is often the result of lack of access to good jobs or any jobs, and discrimination by employers didn't stop in 1965 and hasn't stopped yet.

...
It's tempting to blame African-American social ills on the modern welfare state, which allegedly breeds idleness. But most poor black households are poor despite having at least one adult who works. The welfare reform of the 1990s, which induced many recipients to take jobs, didn't reverse the decline of marriage.
Poor black neighborhoods are not the unassisted creation of poor black people but largely the malignant result of factors beyond their control. These places generate a vicious cycle of poverty and dysfunction that mires children in desperate conditions. Then we wonder why many of these kids end up unemployed, addicted to drugs, behind bars or murdered.
Moynihan's report contained a passage that conservatives rarely quote: "Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. ... The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right."


full column here:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-whites-blacks-families-moynihan-report-perspec-0226-jm-20150225-column.html

Thank you for the benefit of the doubt - it was indeed my impression that when you spoke of institutional racism and mentioned voter suppression you meant the present, not 50 or more years ago. It is, after all, still a popular meme on the left in the present. Apologize for misinterpreting.

I don't for a minute think the Great Society's unintended consequences are the only reason for the disintegration of the black family in America. As I've previously stated, though, mixed with a monopolistic public school system, a justice system that disproportionally incarcerates black youths for what I consider non criminal drug offenses and the remnants of 200 years of overt and covert racism gives you one very lethal stew.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #414 on: July 16, 2017, 10:49:25 PM »
In a poll a year ago, 66% of working-class white Americans said they believe discrimination against white people is "as big a problem" as discrimination against people of color.

https://mic.com/articles/147196/new-polls-shows-almost-half-of-all-americans-think-reverse-racism-is-a-real-problem#.Ef1KlNH2K
This here is Archie Bunker of 704 Hauser Street. You take your big international bankers, they want to ... whaddya call ... masticate the people of this here nation like puppets on the wing, and then when they get their guns, turn us over to the Commies.

mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #415 on: July 17, 2017, 09:09:30 AM »
In a poll a year ago, 66% of working-class white Americans said they believe discrimination against white people is "as big a problem" as discrimination against people of color.

https://mic.com/articles/147196/new-polls-shows-almost-half-of-all-americans-think-reverse-racism-is-a-real-problem#.Ef1KlNH2K

Not defending their position, but that poll is the symptom of the negative aspects of identity politics. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the position, if you call out one group of people as more worthy than another group of people, that second group is going to be offended by it. It has almost nothing to do with whether the first group "deserves" it or not.

No idea how you overcome that, other than to not "pick favorites" however the problem is because of the institutional and historical issues that favorites should be picked, at least from a perception standpoint.
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Pakuni

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #416 on: July 17, 2017, 10:28:33 AM »
I don't for a minute think the Great Society's unintended consequences are the only reason for the disintegration of the black family in America. As I've previously stated, though, mixed with a monopolistic public school system, a justice system that disproportionally incarcerates black youths for what I consider non criminal drug offenses and the remnants of 200 years of overt and covert racism gives you one very lethal stew.

I think that's very fair. Like you and Chapman, I think the level of single-parent households in the black community - and low-income white communities, where it's also a problem - is very much a factor in the cycle of poverty.

This is obviously a tangent, but when you speak of the monopolistic public school system, how would you address that without either gutting the public school system or simply doing away with the notion of public education?

Joeys Tap

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #417 on: July 17, 2017, 12:44:50 PM »


This is obviously a tangent, but when you speak of the monopolistic public school system, how would you address that without either gutting the public school system or simply doing away with the notion of public education?

My solution, to the extent that there is one, would start with the expansion of choice - vouchers, tax credits, even local co-ops that might serve the community (at least segments of it) better than the present system. The public school system is a reality that will never be undone regardless of my thoughts on the issue. More competition to rather than more money for a system producing poor results seems logical to me - especially when the failing system operates under a conflict of interest where teacher's rights/benefits supersede student's performance.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #418 on: July 17, 2017, 04:35:03 PM »
Not defending their position, but that poll is the symptom of the negative aspects of identity politics. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the position, if you call out one group of people as more worthy than another group of people, that second group is going to be offended by it. It has almost nothing to do with whether the first group "deserves" it or not.

No idea how you overcome that, other than to not "pick favorites" however the problem is because of the institutional and historical issues that favorites should be picked, at least from a perception standpoint.

Hmmm.
This here is Archie Bunker of 704 Hauser Street. You take your big international bankers, they want to ... whaddya call ... masticate the people of this here nation like puppets on the wing, and then when they get their guns, turn us over to the Commies.

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #419 on: July 17, 2017, 05:54:38 PM »
My solution, to the extent that there is one, would start with the expansion of choice - vouchers, tax credits, even local co-ops that might serve the community (at least segments of it) better than the present system. The public school system is a reality that will never be undone regardless of my thoughts on the issue. More competition to rather than more money for a system producing poor results seems logical to me - especially when the failing system operates under a conflict of interest where teacher's rights/benefits supersede student's performance.

Except that, when controlling for socioeconomic status, studies show there is no benefit to private schools vs public schools.  Socioeconomic status and parental involvement are the two biggest factors in how a child does in school.

I'd actually go the other way, increasing public school funding.  Lengthen the school year and get creative.

More field trips, especially museums and exposure to the arts.  Real life skills classes, like finances, how to apply to college and for financial aid, how to right a resume, how to dress for a job interview.

More teachers, better teachers, smaller class sizes, and special classrooms for at risk students that are failing to achieve success in school.  Make public schools better for all.

Pakuni

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #420 on: July 17, 2017, 06:25:00 PM »
Except that, when controlling for socioeconomic status, studies show there is no benefit to private schools vs public schools.  Socioeconomic status and parental involvement are the two biggest factors in how a child does in school.

Right. As the authors of 'Freaknomics' found many years ago, the #1 predictor of a child's academic success isn't his or her school district or teacher or type of school. It's the number of books in his or her home.
In other words, educated parents who care about learning produce educated kids who care about learning.

There are hosts of problems with some of our public school systems (and, to be fair, others that are beyond outstanding), but it's laughable  that  some continue to first and foremost blame teachers, who at best have kids for 5-6 hours a day/180 days a year, while ignoring the other, often more important, influences on a child's education.
Like, let's ignore that a kid is growing up in a gang-infested neighborhood, where walking to school is a dangerous proposition, where his single-parent mother works two jobs to put meager food on the table, where he has to raise his younger siblings cause his mom is always at work and dad is in prison or just absent, where there are no books or computers in the home, where there are no expectations of success, where future prospects aren't clearly evident.
No, that kid's real problem is the teacher's union.
OK.

I'm not saying that teacher's unions aren't at times counterproductive, but on the list of things negatively influencing education these days, they're way, way down the list.

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #421 on: July 17, 2017, 07:14:25 PM »
Income inequality can be a great thing.

When a relatively poor person creates a business and has a great experience, makes lots of money and becomes wealthy... should we complain about how bad she is? Should we demand she takes some of her hard earned money and spread it to everyone else who did not take on the risk she did?

There are certain things that affect income inequality that can and should be addressed.. but lumping it together as one thing is goofy imo.

I don't think the woman in your example is "bad" because she made money. I don't think anyone thinks that way. I know plenty of "good" rich people. I know plenty of "bad" poor people.

Other than a few extremists, no one believes in equally distributing all money. Income disparity is a good thing. What we want to see is that even with income disparity, no one is below the poverty line. Its fine if there are haves and have nots. We just don't want the have nots to be in poverty. Some believe that the easiest way to do that is to take some from the very rich. I don't necessarily think it has to be that way.

The other thing I would like to see is that someone's socio-economic status isn't so heavily decided by their parents. The reality is if you are born into poverty you are very likely to stay in poverty. If you are born in the upper class, you are very likely to remain in the upper class. Even if the person in poverty is smarter, works harder, and is more talented than the person born to the upper class family. I don't know how to fix that, I just think it should be.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:47:01 PM by TAMU Eagle »
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #422 on: July 17, 2017, 07:35:21 PM »
This is the crux .. and the split.  Yes, being born poor, having a disability, and medical debt may be the top 3 indicators of being in poverty -- and (perhaps conveniently for the argument?)  they are all uncontrollable. 

But it's foolish to ignore rocket's (and others) factors for poverty:  Dropping out of High School.  Having children too early.  Substance abuse.   Committing crime / incarceration.    Those are all controllable.

So we have two sets of factors, all with differing weights.   The right focuses on the factors that are controllable, the left says that's unfair, focus on the uncontrollable.

Suggesting that one side has the right set of factors is where the folly begins.  They're all important.  You don't need one anti-poverty program.  You need a 100, each picking away at the heap.   If ~half those programs aren't squared at improving personal responsibility, we're going nowhere.

See I don't think this is the crux. I think the crux is that one side thinks things like being born into poverty, mental disability, and medical debt is "uncontrollable." There are things that can be done to control it or at least minimize its impact on those affected. But these are often viewed as handouts  or excuses.

I think the other part of the crux is that some think some of those "controllable" factors are always controllable. If a teenager drops out of high school because his/her parents need him to get a full time job to put food on the table is that really controllable? If a person is raped, birth control fails, or their partner lies about using a condom/being on the pill, is having that baby controllable? If your parents are criminals and force you into crime is that controllable? If you've never received proper education on safe sex, home economics, drug use and your parents, teachers, friends are giving you bad information is that truly controllable? Many of the times, yes its controllable. But not always.

There also the cause and effect pieces. As Pakuni alluded to, poverty leads to dropping out of school, addiction, having children too early, incarceration etc. Those things don't typically lead to poverty.

I believe in personal accountability though I do scoff at some of the requirements I've heard. They often demand perfection when that's simply not reasonable for most human beings. We make mistakes and deserve grace. No drugs? I get that. That's just saying you have to uphold the law. But no alcohol? Period? If someone told me that I wasn't deserving of help because I enjoy a beer once a week I would tell them to go screw off.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #423 on: July 17, 2017, 07:46:14 PM »
I think I said it earlier .. all classes can make bad choices.   But I do see the value in believing that being born into poverty does NOT absolve you from making bad choices.   Everyone does indeed have a choice on their life's path, and this is where liberals (of which I believe I am one) go wrong believing conservatives are wrong on their demands for personal responsibility.

Conservatives (admittedly not 2017's version) want a contract with those in poverty .. meet some basic norms, and we'll fund programs that give you the opportunity for upward mobility.   The left sees this as not just wrong, but vicious.    Aaaaand welcome to 2017.

Agreed. But the problem is that being born into the middle or upper class does absolve you from making bad choices in a majority of cases. I have a friend, love him to death. He was born into a middle class family. He is an alcoholic (though he has it managed now), has tried every narcotic known to man and been addicted to several of them at various times. Gone to rehab and relapsed multiple times. Been to jail multiple times. Despite this, he has steady employment and is firmly in the middle class. He's there because his parents were able to afford to send him to treatment multiple times and judges were willing to give him leniency because of his class (and I would guess because of his race as well). If he had been born into a family in poverty, he would likely be homeless or in jail.

My friend screwed up multiple times but he was able to figure it out and become an extremely productive member of society. I don't think people born into poverty deserve less grace simply because of their socio-economic status. In fact, I think they deserve more grace because they have less access to education.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #424 on: July 17, 2017, 08:08:09 PM »
Agreed. But the problem is that being born into the middle or upper class does absolve you from making bad choices in a majority of cases. I have a friend, love him to death. He was born into a middle class family. He is an alcoholic (though he has it managed now), has tried every narcotic known to man and been addicted to several of them at various times. Gone to rehab and relapsed multiple times. Been to jail multiple times. Despite this, he has steady employment and is firmly in the middle class. He's there because his parents were able to afford to send him to treatment multiple times and judges were willing to give him leniency because of his class (and I would guess because of his race as well). If he had been born into a family in poverty, he would likely be homeless or in jail.

My friend screwed up multiple times but he was able to figure it out and become an extremely productive member of society. I don't think people born into poverty deserve less grace simply because of their socio-economic status. In fact, I think they deserve more grace because they have less access to education.

This is a great example, TAMU. Thanks for stating it so clearly and concisely.

When we talk about one of our borderline MU teams here on Scoop, one of the phrases often used is "margin for error." For example, one might have felt our 2003 team had more "margin for error" than our team the next season did.

The same is true in real life. The children of upper-middle class and truly well-off folks have a huge margin for error. If they get arrested, mommy and daddy bail 'em out immediately, make sure they have a good lawyer, make sure they wear a suit to their hearing before a judge, etc, etc, etc. Even middle-class parents, who maybe don't have lots of cash immediately available, will find money to "save" their kids in these situations. The children of impoverished people? They have zero margin for error. One mishap or misunderstanding and they are totally screwed, often for the rest of their lives.

I like to think all of our brothers and sisters here at Scoop recognize this and realize how lucky most of us have been to have been raised by two caring parents, to have not gone to bed hungry and to have had a roof over our heads. Major margin-for-error stuff.

Add to that ... most of us have been fortunate to have been born white because the racist element in this country is still so pervasive even in 2017. When we cross the street toward somebody, they don't immediately suspect us of no good. When we go out for a drive, we don't risk getting pulled over just because we are the "wrong" color.

A lot of socioeconomic stuff there, but it's also the reality that is white privilege.

It doesn't mean poor black kids are condemned to fail. It just means their margin for error is very small.
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